Author Topic: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)  (Read 38306 times)

Thiradell

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ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« on: October 29, 2013, 02:27:17 PM »
This is regarding your WAR! Agent 0:25 video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFGxyQcLMy8

An anonymous source tipped me off to some peculiarities at the end of this video. Specifically:

-In contrast to every other PD completion, including Karl's own WAR! SA and WAR! PA completions, the endscreen appears instantaneously, rather than dropping down from the top of the screen.
-There is a jump from the Mauler being held to the endscreen, without the cut-scene of the Maians celebrating. I haven't done frame-by-frame analysis, but I'm confident it would show an instant switch between the two.
-Most importantly: To understand this point better, watch (for instance) Taka's WAR! 25. Once the completion screen comes up giving the stats for the level, roughly 12 seconds passes until the level background fades into the blue and purple sky. This is approximately the time it takes for every PD level to make this transition.

In Karl's video, the fade to the sky starts happening almost immediately after the endscreen comes up. This should take roughly 11 seconds longer than it does.

It is clear this video is edited in some capacity. I'd be interested to hear additional opinions, and of course Karl's own testimony as to what's up here.
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006

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2013, 02:37:15 PM »
The jump is actually because I stopped recording on the VCR. I had been playing war agent a long time and had gotten many, many 26's. I didn't think the run was special so I stopped the tape so I could watch the run again and see how close I was. Then when I saw 25 I recorded again.

This is not new. If you were around at the time of the record you would know there was a long discussion regarding this has already taken place. Feel free to go into the history of the boards and find it.

You didn't need an anonymous tip to tell you that.
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006

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2013, 02:41:08 PM »
http://elite.speedrunwiki.com/forum/index.php?topic=634.0

n/m here it is.

While you're at it you may want to proof call everyone who has a time above 80 points and enquire about why expert has no vid for 54 PA.
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Shadow

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2013, 02:59:05 PM »
Man, looking through that old thread... I do NOT miss the days when we waited for months for someone to send VHS tapes to be converted and hosted on Ngamer's file system. We're so spoiled by progress.

006

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2013, 03:03:14 PM »
I was way more of a dick back then lol. Not sure how anyone gave me credit.
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Infil

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2013, 03:05:55 PM »
Re: Expert PA 54, there was a time in the Elite where no video proof was accepted. It might have been a bad decision on our part to allow such a thing, but it was how it worked. You may think Expert's 54 still needs backrolling, but when the time was achieved he didn't break any rules.

I'm not sure there was a time in the elite when known faked/edited videos were accepted as proof? If there was, please correct me.

Did anything come of that SadisticMystic analysis into the video that suggests the run is actually a low 26?

Note: this post has nothing to do with whether Karl got 25, but rather whether the video submitted depicts a 25 run. If the run itself is not a 25, then it's not proof of a 25 time.

As an aside, Karl... you *really* stopped the video so quickly after a low 26 pace run (a run that you must have felt was decently good, or else it wouldn't have been 25) that you didn't even wait for the results screen? Why?
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Thiradell

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2013, 03:06:57 PM »
Thanks for linking that topic. In post #44, SadisticMystic offers pretty in-depth analysis and concludes that the run looks like a low 26. In response to this (#62), you don't offer technical analysis back, instead criticizing him for not being able to tell the difference. In the paragraph before criticizing him, you say you stopped the tape because you thought the run was a 26.

Do you often stop runs close to the threshold of what you're going for in between the end of the run and the results screen? Seems like a very odd thing to do. Topic 634 never discussed the issue to a proper conclusion.

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006

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2013, 03:12:48 PM »
I clearly answered you already. If you don't want to believe my answers, go fuck yourself. This was also a time where this was acceptable. Ask any good PD player if this vid is legit.
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006

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2013, 03:15:34 PM »


I'm not sure there was a time in the elite when known faked/edited videos were accepted as proof? If there was, please correct me.



Suggesting the video is faked?
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OHMSS

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2013, 03:45:33 PM »
In post #44, SadisticMystic offers pretty in-depth analysis and concludes that the run looks like a low 26. In response to this (#62), you don't offer technical analysis back, instead criticizing him for not being able to tell the difference. In the paragraph before criticizing him, you say you stopped the tape because you thought the run was a 26.

The timing is influenced by all of the following:
N64 timing inaccuracy
VHS recording/playback speed deviation
Timing inaccuracies in the digitizing process
Timing inaccuracies in the video re-encoding
Vague guesses of that SadisticMystic guy about the frames where the level timer starts/stops
The guys media player software

The difference between his measured 26.23 and a 25.97 is 0.26 seconds or 1%, and that is after six stages of distortion. On the other hand you have the word of guys like Boss that a 23.7x kill can very well result in a 25, a perfect endscreen, a very credible player and explanation, ...

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2013, 03:49:00 PM »
Don't you guys fucking remember when someone posted a comparison video of Henrik's Train A 105 compared to Ace's Train A 103, and the 105 appeared about 2-3 seconds faster on video?

If Thiradell doesn't remember this, and doesn't understand the difficulty in timing a run based off its video recording, then this is proof that he doesn't have the capability to be proof moderator on this website.
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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2013, 03:53:11 PM »
I know this can be quite a sensitive subject, especially for the person involved.  I've watched the vid, and in my honest opinion it doesn't seem legit.  Karl's reaction here as only validated my opinion even further.  Regardless if it's 8 years old or not, all suspicious videos need to be investigated, and this is no different.

Shadow

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2013, 03:56:57 PM »
Isn't it kind of too obvious to be a fake? As in, Karl didn't even make any effort to hide the spliced end screen?

And a spliced endscreen that has obviously been sitting there a little (with the starry background coming in)?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 04:04:08 PM by Shadow »

006

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2013, 03:59:16 PM »
It was investigated 8 years ago. Why don't you nice gentlemen go investigate it then instead of creating stopics here. Don't post topics and ask me stupid fucking questions that I already answered years ago.

BTW, locate the original.

Tyler told me there is reasonable doubt the video is faked. Evidence? You can't make accusations like that without evidence, I assume that you have some.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 05:15:04 PM by Still #1 »
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Thiradell

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2013, 04:08:37 PM »
Upon further review of the original video, it looks more like a 24.0 or 24.1 kill? Not sure if there's a higher quality version than what's on thengamer.

http://thengamer.com/PD/20-War/Sim Threat - War - A - 025.wmv
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 04:14:23 PM by Thiradell »
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006

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2013, 04:14:56 PM »
Sick evidence bro.
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Shadow

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2013, 04:17:50 PM »
In that old thread, page 4, Boss said

Quote
Anyways, I just got to see the 25 vid, very nice run Karl.  I might be the first to congrats him.  I could clearly see 23.x for the end so yeah.  :rollin

Lark

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2013, 05:16:46 PM »
Tyler is simply doing his job. Let's all try to stay calm and rational while this investigation takes place. I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this.
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006

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2013, 05:38:34 PM »
As an aside, Karl... you *really* stopped the video so quickly after a low 26 pace run (a run that you must have felt was decently good, or else it wouldn't have been 25) that you didn't even wait for the results screen? Why?

I didn't even know if 25 was POSSIBLE when I was playing. I'd had a ton of 26 runs that looked the same that was 26. Seriously the run requires almost perfection and even when your perfect you're only going to get 25 by a couple of tenths. I stopped the tape to see what decimal 26 it was to assess what I needed to do for 25. I was in my 'research' phase for seeing if 25 was possible. I was not expecting 25 at all actually. I didn't need an endscreen because you can use the game timer to see what time it will be (for pal there is 2 seconds from when timer disappears).

You have to realise back then I didn't have TAS to tell me 25 was possible. I didn't even know. Seriously no one thought it was really doable at the time. So it's easy for you to sit there and say 'obviously it could have been 25', but at the time it wasn't that obvious and I was just grinding the level, trying to find improvements and seeing what I needed to do to get 25.

No one had achieved 25 at this point and no one was using the strategy I developed (which, interestingly, every vid emulates now) so I had no reference points to let me know if 25 was possible. All I had was my own runs and the game timer. Therefore whenever I finished a good run I would stop the tape, look at the TT's and decide if I needed more boosts or something.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 05:57:47 PM by Still #1 »
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006

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2013, 06:34:17 PM »
Tyler please stop deleting my posts.
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Thiradell

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2013, 06:39:35 PM »
I reviewed the video many times, and it's possible the end decimal was 23.9 (maaaaaaaaaaybe 23.8 ), which can result in 25 (there's roughly a 2.05 second delay between the timer disappearing and the level ending). There are no inconsistencies in the run versus the endscreen. From Karl's last post, I can see why he might've been cutting the video after runs were over (still a really weird thing to be doing, and not something I recommend).

Be advised I wouldn't accept this as proof these days because of all the troubles we've had with splicing/editing/faking. If you make a vid, it should be continuous through to the endscreen (more important for GE than PD).
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006

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2013, 06:46:06 PM »
Thank you for looking into this further and posting with a now obviously educated opinion.

I'm aware of the current proof policy.
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Thiradell

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2013, 06:47:34 PM »
Right, that was more of a general thing for anyone reading the topic. Might've gotten a little delete-happy as well, just really not a fan of trolling/insulting on forums and I wanted to keep this topic relatively streamlined.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 07:48:13 PM by Thiradell »
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RBlackGoose

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2013, 06:51:06 PM »
oh yeah GOOSE FOR MOD!!!!!
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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2013, 08:46:56 PM »
God forbid if Karl of all people is caught for lying or cheating, I'm done playing forever. Would be TOO MUCH for me to look past. I have that much faith that what Karl says is legit. :)

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2013, 11:19:22 PM »
Now that the matter has been sorted and we no longer need a clean (censored) topic, I can say now that this was a blatant bullying attempt by Thiradell directed towards Karl due to his views on Duel.
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RBlackGoose

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2013, 11:20:33 AM »
As if goose doesnt do those kind of things (and much worse) to other people, especially mods
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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2013, 11:59:01 AM »
Sometimes at night I hear screams of white Goosian noise. I shudder to even think about it.

Shadow

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2013, 12:01:09 PM »
Sometimes at night I hear screams of white Goosian noise. I shudder to even think about it.

Oooh, bad, bad!

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2013, 12:07:12 PM »
I knew my communication-theorist buddy Shadow would dig that one :)

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2013, 02:25:38 PM »
Now that the matter has been sorted and we no longer need a clean (censored) topic, I can say now that this was a blatant bullying attempt by Thiradell directed towards Karl due to his views on Duel.

Not that Goose isn't a huge douchebag in his own right, I thought this exact same thing the minute I read it.

006

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2015, 03:19:40 AM »
This topic is the most viewed topic after all of the 'post new X here' topics. What the hell lol.
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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2015, 04:23:08 AM »
lol, almost 30k views...
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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2015, 04:47:27 AM »
Guest                                  04:22:08 am                            Viewing the topic ATTN: Karl Jobst (important).


yeah 99% of the time whenever I check who's online I always notice this. It's been going on for well over a year. And occasionally 3-4 guests view this topic simultaneously...I can't quite figure out why (especially since last post is from Oct 2013). It appears some people find this topic extremely fascinating and have an obsession with it for some extremely odd reason, otherwise they wouldn't view it all the time.

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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2015, 05:09:39 AM »
It's because the topic has the word 'important' in it :nesquik:
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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2015, 09:39:32 AM »
Probably the bluelame godess and her 3 alts all set this topic as the Favorite link whenever she wants to see the forums (which is pretty much every second of life existence).


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Re: ATTN: Karl Jobst (important)
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2015, 08:56:50 PM »
The video is blocked on youtube by WMG just throwing that out there.