The Elite Forum
The Big Three Plus One => General Chat => Topic started by: David Wonn on April 18, 2012, 05:54:57 pm
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Due to the nature of this poll, this will be an open ballot only for the Va. 2012 meet attendees interested in the Kart tournament. Here is your chance! Your vote could be as simple as I-B & II-A, for instance, but I highly recommend that everyone discusses reasons for choices. Two proposed rule changes are candidates this year:
I. Semi-finals format
Opt. A: Keep existing set of 4 GP pairings: 1v8, 2v7, 3v6, 4v5
Opt. B: Change to two 4P groupings: 1v4v5v8 & 2v3v6v7
II. Shortcut rules
Opt. A: Keep existing format (bans must be unanimous per group of 4)
Opt. B: Change to universal set: Ban FS full-lap, WS 2nd half-lap, KD Star cut
Opt. C: Change to allow each person one specific ban (with a few constraints)
A majority passage is required for Rule I above to change, and a 40% plurality is required for Rule II above to change. This poll will remain open through May 31. Here are details of each option:
I-A: The existing pairings of 1v8, 2v7, 3v6, & 4v5 GP semi-finals have been in place in all Virginia meets since 2007, as an extension of the 2006 St. Louis meet rules. GP adds some diversity to the game, and 2P Vs. has been proven time and time again to be excessively dull for the sake of tournaments. A vote of I-A means you want to keep GP in place for semi-finals.
I-B: Grand Prix will essentially be eliminated from the tournament (except for Toad's Turnpike mirror mode to settle ties between two players.) Under the proposed change, the new semi-final structure would be two 4P groupings of 1v4v5v8 & 2v3v6v7, with the top two performers from each group advancing to the finals. A majority passage of I-B will change to this format.
II-A: The existing setup of only banning shortcuts upon unanimous consent per group has been in place in all Virginia meets since 2007, despite some misunderstandings of a few individuals. This actually allows for the most flexibility, and allows for more diversity per round. A vote of II-A means you want to keep the existing format.
II-B: The shortcuts that are lap skippers (or close enough to it) and are easy enough to trigger while potentially making a track less interesting would be the universal banned set for all rounds. Specifically Frappe Snowland (which is already auto-banned), Wario Stadium's 2nd half lap skip returning to the finish line (but not the initial half lap skip), and Kalimari Desert star shortcut are arbitrarily chosen as the aforementioned banned shortcuts. This would offer the least flexibility among all options, but would make things consistent across the board. A 40% plurality of II-B will cause the shortcut rules to change this way.
II-C: This option offers some flexibility like the current rule set, but the twist is that each person could get to pick one specific shortcut (and no more than one) to ban if desired. Certain shortcuts will not be eligible to ban, though. Wario Stadium 1st half lap skip and the Rainbow Road jump will always be available in all rounds for sake of time and interest. Any "shortcut" in Koopa Troopa Beach, along with minor grass/desert/snow/etc. cuts in most tracks will always be allowed as well due to intentional track design. Also, anything involving shells is always legal for technical reasons. Otherwise, anything else of significance can be optionally chosen for ban once per person per round. A 40% plurality of II-C will cause the shortcut rules to change this way.
Let the voting begin!
*** Update 4/30 ***
Rules I-B & II-B will be in effect this year. Now you can vote on one final potential change!
III. Universal shortcut bans
Opt. A: Ban FS full-lap, WS 2nd half-lap, KD Star cut, according to II-B
Opt. B: Add DKJP lap skip as 4th ban
Opt. C: Add Royal shroom across water as 4th ban, but allow shroom-less
A 40% plurality is required for Rule III to change. This will remain open through May. Here are the details of each option:
III-A: The new rules this year are to enforce a consistent ban of select shortcuts across the board. Specifically they are as follows:
1. Frappe Snowland full-lap skip at the beginning is banned as it has been since 2008, including all variations of the 1lap and 3lap Time Trial strategies. However, the lesser warp glitch midway through the track is still allowed as it has been, but you risk drowning your kart for an automatic zero points for the track, due to the nature of the glitch. With Kevin Booth absent this year, hardly anyone would attempt it anyway since the risk far exceeds the benefit in 150cc.
2. Wario Stadium's 2nd half lap skip returning to the finish line is banned, and it was often chosen as such in the past in order to make the track interesting. Note that the initial half lap skip and other smaller cuts are perfectly legal and encouraged.
3. Kalimari Desert's Star shortcut through the train tunnel is the newest ban this year. It was often legal in the past for the reason that it was intentionally programmed into the game. Upon further review, the designers may not have anticipated people like myself turning it into a lap skip, so it is removed. Note that any shortcuts by use of shells are always legal for technical reasons mentioned in other threads.
A vote of III-A means that you are satisfied with the three shortcuts above being banned universally.
III-B: This option would ban everything in III-A, plus the following:
4. DK's Jungle Parkway lap skip inside the cave (both Lakitu-assisted and Lakitu-less variants) would also be banned. We opted to ban it in the 2009 finals, and it follows the theme of the other three lap skippers. However, it does require more skill to execute properly, which is why it was often legal in the past, and it is generally only tried by a small handful of participants in any event.
A 40% plurality of III-B will cause the shortcut rules to change this way.
III-C: This option would ban everything in III-A, plus the following:
4. Royal Raceway mushroom jump across the water early in the track would be banned, but it would still be legal if you don't use a Mushroom, Triple Shroom, or Gold Shroom. This would effectively reduce the effectiveness of the Triple Shroom in this track, but it would still reward skillful jumps by other means. Also the jump from the bridge off to the left is still perfectly legal, but it saves only a few seconds in 150cc. Few people attempt it anyway since the risk once again exceeds the benefit.
A 40% plurality of III-C will cause the shortcut rules to change this way.
This is the final potential amendment to this year's rules, so let the voting begin for the final time!
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I. Semi-finals format
Opt. B: Change to two 4P groupings: 1v4v5v8 & 2v3v6v7
This is definitely the better way to get the best 4 drivers into the final four. It doesn't make sense to change the rules for the semis and nothing else with the old way.
II. Shortcut rules
Opt. C: Change to allow each person one specific ban (with a few constraints)
I like this one the best of the new options. The current way can be confusing with what SCs are allowed/not allowed for certain tracks.
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I-A
II-B
Easy.
II-A is the worst rule.
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My votes are for
I. Semi-finals format
Opt. B: Change to two 4P groupings: 1v4v5v8 & 2v3v6v7
II. Shortcut rules
Opt. B: Change to universal set: Ban FS full-lap, WS 2nd half-lap, KD Star cut
However I have two further suggestions:
A new tiebreaker solution - A single race on Toad's Turnpike backwards has always been an awful way to decide a winner. Especially considering how (I believe) each of the past three years of Finals matches we've gone into Rainbow Road with the real possibility of having a first place tie. Can you imagine something as ridiculous as TT backwards deciding the overall #1?
The new suggestion Jimbo and I came up with last night is...
- Tied players flip a coin. Winner gets to choose any track he wants (aside from Wario and Rainbow, which we'll eliminate for the sake of time).
- Whoever loses that race gets to pick the next track, and so on.
Under normal circumstances whoever wins 2 out of the 3 races wins the TB, but if this is for the Championship, we'll upgrade that to best 3 out of 5.
Second thing I think is worth discussing is the Royal Raceway shortcut. Jones is able to consistently hit it shroomless, and no one doubts him, but some of us still feel that it's too large an advantage to pause on the first item box and wait for triple shooms, which isn't in the spirit of the competition. So personally I would vote for banning using mushrooms on the SC but allowing people to try for it shroomless if they want to take that risk.
Hopefully we can get both of these items added to the ballot so we can come up with a consensus!
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I B
obvious vote since I'm the one who suggested it
II B I guess, I just want consistent rules and this SC stuff decided BEFORE the meet starts not during it.
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However I have two further suggestions:
A new tiebreaker solution - A single race on Toad's Turnpike backwards has always been an awful way to decide a winner. Especially considering how (I believe) each of the past three years of Finals matches we've gone into Rainbow Road with the real possibility of having a first place tie. Can you imagine something as ridiculous as TT backwards deciding the overall #1?
The new suggestion Jimbo and I came up with last night is...
- Tied players flip a coin.[...] [emphasis mine]
This is where you lose me. Due to incidents that arose in my 1997 tournament, it has been my personal vow that coin tosses will never ever be allowed for any reason whatsoever in a Kart tournament. Period. The finals that year were almost canceled because the host had the unfavorable coin toss that resulted in his getting 4th pick of driver. Thankfully we use GameSharks nowadays to avoid this, but coin tosses and drawing pieces of paper for seeding were used in other parts of that tournament as well. They were the worst elements of that tournament that remain buried in 1997 and are never making a comeback. Not on my watch.
As for the rest of what you said regarding breaking ties, one can equally argue that Rainbow Road has acted as a tie-breaker in recent finals. Eddie and I were tied coming into Rainbow Road in '09, and point spreads of other players since have been within two at the same point. Therefore, Rainbow Road alone (a single track, mind you!) has been the deciding factor in the last three years. Turnpike mirrored is a single track that nobody likes, so nobody has an advantage, which is precisely why it's traditionally been the best solution to date.
With that said, if two or more people do ever tie in the finals, and if they unanimously agree to use an alternate tie-breaker method, then that's fine. But as the rules stand, Turnpike mirrored is the default method.
Second thing I think is worth discussing is the Royal Raceway shortcut. Jones is able to consistently hit it shroomless, and no one doubts him, but some of us still feel that it's too large an advantage to pause on the first item box and wait for triple shooms, which isn't in the spirit of the competition. So personally I would vote for banning using mushrooms on the SC but allowing people to try for it shroomless if they want to take that risk.
Your suggestion of only allowing it shroomless is certainly intriguing, but what about with the Star, as I did in the 2009 finals? It's also no mystery that a well-timed mini-turbo is the key to success otherwise. I'd understand the arguments against allowing Royal Raceway if someone were forced to pick a heavyweight, since items would be virtually essential, but since everyone can pick a lightweight, the issue is almost moot. If people really want Royal banned (or something else), they can always vote II-A (depending on group) or II-C (at the expense of getting no more than a few shortcuts banned.)
Hopefully we can get both of these items added to the ballot so we can come up with a consensus!
We're already pushing two potential rule changes this year alone. Any more would be too much this time around, and I'm already anticipating big changes for 2013, depending on how this year goes.
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I-B.
ban royal raceway. actually, ban all shortcuts. why not maximize the amount of time playing the game that we enjoy? does anyone remember what the first half of wario stadium looks like?
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I personally like the 1 vs 1 GP format, but I'll be in the way minority and just vote to do a top 2 advancement of an outstanding group of 4 players based on the seedings. I like how the #1 seed gets the "worse" players, gives you a real incentive to shoot for that spot besides pride alone.
I like the idea of each participant having a "BANNED SHORTCUT" card used on 13/16 tracks, but managing that would be a nightmare, so the best option here is clearly a universal set of rules that get decided at the end of this topic.
TL;DR - 2 groups of 4 players in the semi finals, universal rules (option B?) for shortcuts.
Edit: Forgot to post the tiebreaker situation. I like Jon's idea (we actually discussed this pretty thoroughly), but my only disagreement is that instead of a you-pick I-pick scenario in determining the #1 overall player, it should be picked at random out of a hat by the Kart tourney chairman minus Wario/Rainbow. #1 overall is decided by a best 3-of-5, whereas EVERYTHING else (including #2 and #3 overall) is decided by a best 2-of-3 with the same rules.
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I-B.
ban royal raceway. actually, ban all shortcuts. why not maximize the amount of time playing the game that we enjoy? does anyone remember what the first half of wario stadium looks like?
THIS GUY. Listen to him.
Seriously a non-SC game would be awesome.
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This is where games stop becoming fun.
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Tourney's are serious buzzniss , yo! Winner at virginia is champion worlds most, yo!
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Pretty much agree with Trent. I think the smoothest solution is to ban shortcuts entirely. Don't really buy "sake of time and interest," it wouldn't add more than 10 minutes to any given round if shortcuts were banned.
I-B.
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Lol Dave!
The fact that Wonn selflessly suggested a vote for changes is great. It'd be nice if that were the case in other instances. Just sayin..,
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I - B
II - Doesn't really matter since I don't know / can't do most SC's anyways. :)
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How about no shortcuts at all in the preliminary rounds so everyone can have more fun!
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I - B
Getting rid of GP also eliminates any potential sticky situations involving NPCs (warping Mario on Royal Raceway, anyone?)
II - B
I hate spending however long before matches trying to figure out what shortcuts we should/shouldn't allow, so option A is out. I'd be okay with C, but B seems to be the better option to me in terms of fairness.
Also, regarding the tiebreaker situation, I think TT extra is terrible for both the players and the viewers. I like Jon's idea, but instead of flipping a coin, how about we let the lower seed choose the first track?
...Or how about MANDATORY shortcuts? :v
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"Due to incidents that arose in my 1997 tournament, it has been my personal vow that coin tosses will never ever be allowed for any reason whatsoever in a Kart tournament."
I fully understand where you're coming from- it would be terrible to have a Championship that players invested so many hours in come down to random chance at the last moment, and getting stuck with Mario for the final tracks would be enough to make anyone want to quit. But to take such a firm anti-random stance on one hand, yet on the other hand support a solution where the Championship will largely be decided by who lucks out by collecting more stars and ghosts over the course of a single race on a track no one ever plays...
Now, I'm fine with taking the coin flip out of the equation, as I do agree that letting the (random) winner of that flip start out on his best track is too large an advantage. Instead, let's draw the first track out of a hat (again excluding Wario/Rainbow), then allow the loser to pick a track from there out. That will take luck out of the equation in terms of being knocked out of the tournament- if you go 0 for 2 in that scenario there's no one to blame but yourself, you really can't make a case that you only lost out because of an unlucky coin flip.
And again, if it was a tie to decide the overall #1 you'd have to go 0 for 3 in order to lose out, and the last two races would have happened on your two favorite tracks in the entire game, at which point it would be very clear that you simply were not the better Karter on that day.
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...Or how about MANDATORY shortcuts? :v
We did this not too long ago, That was pretty fun
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I - A
II- A
I fear change.
(obviously disregard my vote)
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Doesn't matter, I'll still luckbox something incredible at the meet. I always do.
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IA
2P GP is a lot different than 4P so it rewards those who are good at both. I actually typed IB first and changed my mind though, so I don't mind much either way.
IIB
Current format is kind of awkward I guess. I would want to throw DKJP into the universal ban though, and maybe RRaceway too (like Jon said, rewards luck/purposely being in last).
Also agree with Jon on the tiebreaker situation. Don't know why some incident from 1997 should influence what we're deciding now.
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IB
Despite being terrible at 2P GP I still think it's interesting to see but I always found the format to be weird. A bunch of 4P rounds to play a 2PGP round to qualify for a 4P finale? 2P VS wouldn't be so fun and only 4P remove something from the competition but we are crowning the best 4P player otherwise we'll have to add a TT round since it's also part of the game just like GPs. 4P rounds are far more interesting to watch and play than 2P rounds.
I guess it just depends if people want to have people that are good at 2PGP battle it out in a 4P match or just the best 4P players battling in the end.
IIB
Make a clear set before the game. I think most should be banned and I wouldn't be against a N-SC only tourney even if I love shortcuts. I mean sure sure things are a bit longer N-SC but that's not really the problem once people are sitting in front of the TV. Getting them there is the actual problem. People's rank are based off the N-SC list so why not make it N-SC?
If we allow SCs then just make WS part1 and RRd to be allowed and ban the others.
At least if it's a vote make it the other way around, if someone doesn't want the SCs then ban it if all 4 agrees then go ahead.
Tie breaker
Now random is bad but I mean getting Mario for 16 races racing 3 lightweights vs choosing the first track of a best of X is wayyyyy different. Drawing out of an hat is fine or just using lower seeds kind of thing. It's not like someone will have a huge advantage on someone else on a track unless there are SCs that he can do consistently.
Also would people like to do is a TT first try competition, it's fast to do and fun to see. Or possibly a SC mini tourney.
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I- A
II- B
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I - B
Having the same format carry the entire way through the tournament only makes too much sense.
II - B
Having a set format in advance to practice on only makes too much sense. People who ban certain shortcuts only do so because they either haven't taken the time to practice them or they have but feel that they aren't very good at them. Why should you be allowed to arbitrarily change the rules of a game to cater to your strengths or avoid your weaknesses?
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lol Dave! do you even know how to play Kart?
I. A
II. B
*hopes to make the play-in
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1b
2b
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shawn - nope :nesquik:
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Even though it is still April, the B's are definitely the overwhelming favorites in both cases. It is clear that the people have spoken, and they want consistency across the board. I thought option C would get at least a few more votes than it did, given that it would automatically allow up to 4 shortcuts to be banned in a given round. Still, in keeping with the spirit of the vote, I might add one more poll, assuming II-B passes. I'll either add it to the initial post in this thread (if I can) or start a new one early next week. Be on the lookout for it.
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Ehhh, I don't mind DK. I'll cast my vote for
III. Universal shortcut bans
Opt. C: Add Royal shroom across water as 4th ban, but allow shroom-less
But in addition to all the Shroom variants, I'd also like to ban hitting this SC with a Star. So instead of "shroom-less" it would be "item-less".
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III A
I'd rather see no SC at all seems the easiest thing to do. I'd add that you can't camp on an item box to prevent silly thing like everyone waiting for a shroom there and to prevent someone from sitting on items to screw one particular person over and over to enable himself or someone else to win.
If you get triple shrooms on your first go then all the good to you, now others can just try and put bananas all over the place there or get it without items and a lightning is never too far away.
We've seen plenty of people missing the SC even with a shroom so I'm fine with that, it's just a race after all.
Why can't people vote for banning both DK and RRy or banning all the SCs?
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III-A
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B
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Why can't people vote for banning both DK and RRy or banning all the SCs?
David only gives people options that he sees as favorable for himself. This has happened before. My vote:
III-D: Ban all shortcuts
If too extreme for you, then I vote:
III-E: Ban all shortcuts except WS and RR
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I switch my vote to III-E. Anyone else in support of this one? Seems like a great choice. III-D is pretty good too.
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Ban all shortcuts. Including the ramp on KTB. Let's make this as long of a tourney as possible.
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Ban all shortcuts. Including the ramp on KTB. Let's make this as long of a tourney as possible.
Why stop there? YV hairpin? I haven't practiced that one too much and have trouble hitting it, therefore BAN!
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III-E
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Why can't people vote for banning both DK and RRy or banning all the SCs?
David only gives people options that he sees as favorable for himself. This has happened before. My vote: [...]
Trent,
Your accusation is baseless. Here are the facts:
1. Anyone in the Kart community who remotely knows me would know that all of the shortcuts I proposed to ban are ones I am good at performing pretty consistently. This alone contradicts your assertion that I am doing this in my favor this year.
2. Josh Layne, the only repeat champ so far, is known for his non-shortcut skills. Yet he chose to embrace the shortcuts in the 2006 St. Louis meet (the predecessor of today's Va. meets) and had no problems adapting to the format. Consequently he won the first two meets in Virginia as well. We have actually cut back on which shortcuts have been allowed since, and we could still have another repeat champ among us (though I highly doubt that will be me.) Are you up for the task?
3. The 1997 tournament that I won was strictly non-shortcut. And it made sense for the host to run it that way because hardly anyone other than myself could execute shortcuts at all. I wholeheartedly agreed with the host's format to help even out the playing field. Your concerns to ban everything would be more valid if our group were like the one we had back then when shortcuts were in their infancy. But it isn't that way anymore. Now it's 2012, and we have several talented shortcutters at the meet. Are you asking all the top players to downplay their skills in order to accommodate the lower seeds who cannot hit them? The round robin structure alone already gives everyone a decent shot at the title.
4. I invite you to revisit the 2009 finals video and count how many shortcuts I actually used. From memory, I only used Kalimari star, Wario stadium 1st half lap skip, Royal Raceway shroom cut, and the initial Rainbow Road jump. We banned Frappe full-lap, Wario Stadium 2nd half-lap, and DKJP lap skip in that year's finals. Despite the many allowed shortcuts, did I use more than four? (KTB tunnel and YV hairpin cut do not count as SCs in the Kart community, even though I disagree with them on the latter.) Furthermore, I changed the rules this year to strike Kalimari star and potentially Royal or DK, pending poll results (without your bogus D & E additions.)
And yet you claim I am making the rules to favor yours truly? Try again.
PY (and others),
I made the options separate to get a better insight on everyone's priorities among the options. I also make just a few options available to increase the chances that a plurality actually becomes a majority. Sure, it won't please everybody, but no tournament ever will, regardless of how objective I am trying to be. Good luck to whomever takes over these duties in the future....
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1. I’m not talking about your ability to perform shortcuts favorably impacting your chances of winning the tournament. I’m talking about the way you want the tournament to be played out in your eyes. Why only give three options when there was support for others? What is the explanation for the options you gave? You don’t agree that racing the first half of Wario Stadium would be an interesting change of pace and wouldn’t detract from the tournament?
2. Apparently I am, since I won the 2010 International Bumpass Mario Kart 64 Tournament. I’d rattle off all the shortcuts I hit, but I don’t quite remember. BTW, I’m average at Mario Kart.
3. David, it might be time to move on from the 1997 tournament. I’m not lobbying for giving the non-Karters a better chance to win. I enjoy the racing aspect of Mario Kart, and eliminating shortcuts heightens the experience. Besides, like Mark said, most of these shortcuts are easy, right?
4. Refer to my first response. Obviously if the shortcuts truly benefitted you more than others, you’d have won every tournament, yes? In the past, we’ve had matches where three individuals wanted to ban a shortcut, but because your rule was “all must agree to ban the shortcut”, it didn’t happen.
Please don’t be so defensive. I’m just trying to advocate a little bit for change :) Look what happened to the Goldeneye tournament!
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I guess I took the comment more personally than I normally would have, with the way it was worded. Honestly, I do welcome constructive criticism, and yes the tournament structure will have to undergo an overhaul in 2013 to adapt to the growth of interest and increase in number of participants. The reality is that this could potentially be my last year attending, depending on other completely unrelated external factors. I want the tournaments to successfully outlive my presense there, and perhaps I just want things to work out so well, even when I know that not everyone will be satisfied. Let's just take things one step at a time and see how option III goes based on the initial 3 choices for now. I only added III to adapt to the overwhelming support of II-B. If it works well this year, we'll continue further tweaks, and if it doesn't, I'll let someone else take over for 2013 even if I do make it.
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Can we please add III-E to the official voting list?
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I personally couldn't care less about what shortcuts are used and what aren't used, I'll learn to adapt and have no problems with it either way. That's my vote!
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Ban all shortcuts. Including the ramp on KTB. Let's make this as long of a tourney as possible.
Why stop there? YV hairpin? I haven't practiced that one too much and have trouble hitting it, therefore BAN!
Let's make that happen!
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heh this make it as long as possible thing is ridiculous. As if removing SC would make the tournament longer. TBH removing the hairpin would probably make it shorter as a bunch of people actually miss and tumble wasting more time than going around on all 3 laps. Since we go as fast as the 2 slower players so including SCs hardly make it faster (other than WS and RRd) if the bottom 2 do not try them (or try them anyway and miss 99% of the time).
if III E was in the voting I would vote for that but I can see David's point of not wanting too drastic of a change for his final year at this.
In that case I honestly don't see why we should ban one and not the other so I'd leave both in. It's just that to me someone driving a perfect race should win vs someone having a bad race but just hitting the SC on the final lap and then passing you with the star he got before hitting the SC. Sure it add excitement, "oh I hope he's not going to get the SC", but there is no reason you would try the SC when in 1st in a close race with 2nd even if you're okay at it (let's face it almost no one practice SCs on 150cc).
Also I'm ranked decently high in SC so the "I'm having trouble hitting it, therefore ban" doesn't really apply ;). The only time Wheat, Nate etc. are going for the SCs is when they get screwed or fell down, just to catch up (other than WS, RRd and probably RRy since that one cuts a way bigger part than most SCs)
I'd like to see Eddie, Boss, Nate, Wheat, Andrew, Tyler, etc. voice their opinion though. So far it seems it's 4 votes for E vs 1 vote for A
On a side note a small SC tournament would be fun to do. Maybe something like 1st get 3 2nd 2 3rd 1 4th 0 and 1 point for a successful SC once a lap or things like spiral and some others are 2 pts.
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Wolf lean on PYL
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Sure, there is that hypothetical argument that a player in the back does a great shortcut on the final lap to "ruin" another player's perfect non-sc race. However, the same thing also happens when a player gets a critical lightning bolt or series of "lucky" items to pull off the upset. Watch any of the finals in the past few years, and it's quite evident that the latter happens far more often than the former. Just further food for thought....
Anyway, Vs. mode has never been about getting the perfect race; that's what Time Trials is for. We can always do side events like speedrunning "synchronized GP" to see who gets the better races overall to satisfy that area. The Vs. mode tournament is always going to boil down to how players react to a variety of situations coming from their adversaries in the forms of shroom usage, weapon usage, mini-turbo usage, and so on. It never was about getting the perfect race, but rather getting the better race.
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Of course items happen more often there is 4+ sets a lap vs a single SC. No one remember all the failed attempts at SCs either. I just feel items are part of the game while SCs are a mode you can play on. You either play TT on SC or on N-SC so why couldn't vs be the same. SCs rarely happen anyway why not just remove it completely to make the competition more enjoyable for all, the main ranking is N-SC afterall. Plus you can usually at least try to do something against items, few tracks have spots where a lightning will really screw you up and you can slow down etc to avoid it, you can defend against triple reds, a blue might not get there in time or can hit a wall with a sharp turn against a SC all you do is hope he fails.
Also of course I didn't mean perfect as in TT perfect but rather played all his items nicely, raced a clean race and built a healthy lead as we saw a couple times and then win, why add some more things that can screw you, I feel items are more than enough :p
But I'm not going to complain either way as I'm fine with SCs and do enjoy them, but keep in mind some people don't. I feel this could at least be considered for future meets, if not this one. You did a good job with all this logistic for many years so if it's the way you feel is better for now go ahead. But as I said I'm curious about others' opinions.
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PYL makes a good point. SC/N-SC are separated in Time Trials, there's no reason why we can't do the same for VS mode.
I vote for III-D
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Those of you voting on superfluous options outside the official options are, ironically, voting to regress to the 1997 format, despite the fact that you wanted change. A strictly non-shortcut tournament is not as exciting as some may think. And I am saying that as someone who won in such a format, at a time and place when it made more sense to go that route.
What we are trying to accomplish this year -- possibly my final year overseeing -- is to further compromise between the shortcut and non-sc factions. That has been no small feat to accomplish, to say the least. We are attempting to strike out the most egregious shortcuts, while keeping smaller and/or excessively difficult/risky ones available. In doing so, we always play the most interesting parts of tracks, while still keeping the number of rounds and time per round as reasonable as possible.
On that note, I cannot emphasize enough how difficult it has been in previous meets to actually get people together to get their rounds started. Some people probably just aren't aware that this has been quite the challenging task, but whoever runs this next year will definitely see this first hand.
The bottom line is that you are wasting your vote if you do not select the official options of A, B, or C. I will throw out such "write-in" ballots. If you want to go with an even more drastically reduced set of shortcuts for 2013 when someone else runs this, then by all means do it after this year's meet, but please don't ruin it for those who are legitimately voting on the valid options this year. Thank you.
P.S. There is the possibility of both III-B & III-C passing (in addition to what's already passed) if they both happen to have a sufficient plurality. I kept them separate to see which was more popular. "Write-in" ballots only serve to negate these efforts, guys....
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I'd much rather see items banned than shortcuts. Not even trolling.
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Sorry but I'm not switching my vote. None of the other options are nearly as appealing. I'm sure many others agree. So far we have 1 vote for A (Jones), 1 vote for C (Ngamer), 2 people who don't care about shortcuts (Jim and Mgay), 3 voting for E (Thingy, Trent, PYL), and 2 for D (Third, and Wiff asking for D+).
So overall it's 5 people choosing more restrictive options than those listed and 2 choosing "real" options. Let's see what happens when more people weigh in.
You say that this isn't change, 1997, etc...but when the previous few years have been "you can do any shortcut as long as you insist it should be allowed" this is *more* change than the 3 options presented in the first post.
If you can't accept D or E, could you accept adding a fourth option "Only use a shortcut that all 4 players explicitly and unanimously agree is allowed before the race"
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...there are gameshark codes for that:-p
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If you can't accept D or E, could you accept adding a fourth option "Only use a shortcut that all 4 players explicitly and unanimously agree is allowed before the race"
That's pretty close to II-A. But II-B won. Wonn is trying (albeit not without controversy) to satisfy the votes for II-B. In addition, knowing the format in advance allows you to prepare prior to the tournament - which is why II-B won I think.
How about this idea:
List every shortcut possible in the game and have everyone cast a ballot Y/N on allowing them. Any shotcuts with over 50% Ys are allowed. The others are disallowed. It seems like a compromise between your proposal while satisfying the people who voted for II-B which got the most votes from the last round of voting.
I'm still under the impression that people voting against shortcuts are the people who haven't actually taken the time to practice them in order to stack the odds to be more in their favor. To me, if it's part of the game (intended or not) and doesn't provide an inherent disadvantage to other players (like Frappe Lap Skip) then there is no legitimate reason for banning it. Every shortcut has a risk/reward payout and part of the game and preparation for a tourney should be determining what that risk/reward factor for those SCs are for you and whether or not to attempt them given your current position in any race. That makes the game just that much more fun for me, and as I suspect, others.
The main arguments I am hearing for banning SCs are: it makes the game longer. Isn't everyone pushing for a change to the GE format to make it shorter? Another argument concerns fairness regarding certain SCs (Royal). Ignoring the fact that Royal can be hit 95% as easily without an item as with an item, Kart multiplayer is inherently unfair. The players in last get better items than the players in first. Yet I don't hear, apart from MGay, anyone complaining about the unfairness of the items algorithm. It's the way the game was made - along with the shortcuts. Arbitrarily picking and choosing parts of the game to allow/disallow just seems like the wrong thing to do. It's a game, if you don't like the way the game is played, then don't play it.
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I would say making a list of every *possible* SC in the game and having everyone fill out a ballot is a fine solution to this issue (better include "obvious" things like KTB tunnel as well). If you agree that 50% is a fair threshold for acceptance, at least. I can see how some people might want that pushed to 30% or 70% depending on their position, as well.
Try to make up a list.
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Alright, I'll bite, and I will even give everyone an alternative to picking III-A, -B, or -C. Adding to what Jones said above, my old shortcuts page (http://davidwonn.kontek.net/mk64.html) is a starting point for listing (and explaining) the vast majority of the shortcuts in the game, even if it is a bit dated. If anyone truly wants particular shortcuts banned outside of the options I gave for III-A, -B, and -C, then give me a compelling argument specific to each shortcut that you believe should be banned. Excuses such as "I suck at X shortcut" or "I don't want to learn Y shortcut" or "I hate Z shortcut, so ban it" are not going to convince anyone. On that note, here is an example of how to propose a ban:
"Frappe Snowland full lap skip (in both its 1lap and 3lap Time Trial variations) at the beginning of the race should be banned due to its disproportionally high percentage of glitching a player, from a particular quadrant of the screen, through the bridge and into the water below upon Lakitu's release. Since this puts one player at a disadvantage over others attempting the same shortcut, it should therefore be banned globally in order to keep the race fair for all participants."
See? That wasn't too hard.
If enough fully qualified reasons such as the one above are given to a particular shortcut, then it will be highly considered to be added to the already banned Frappe full lap, Kalimari star cut, and Wario 2nd half lap skips from the passage of II-B. I want specifics. If you cannot do this, then you are otherwise better off selecting III-A, -B, or -C.
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Well the main issues I see right now are:
1) people who voted for II-B didn't know that only these options would be proposed (Scott, Trent actually said ban all SC when going with II-B)
2) not a lot of people seems to be voting in here we have 30 people going and less than 10 votes and like 2-3 from top 8 from last year?
Also comparing SC and items is a bit ridiculous and stretching it. Items are there no matter who plays and what background they have SCs are unknown to most people who play and knowing them doesn't mean they can do them, albeit people from the site should know about them.
Removing items would be silly let's just play TT instead. No-Sc is still playing the game.
But as I said N-SC is pretty much how it is nowadays and SCs are just there to catch up when you're having a bad race it seems. So if people still want to allow that for people having bad races then whatever I guess I just don't see this as a necessity. No one is practicing hitting SCs on 150 cc since retrying is so long so I don,t see this as an argument why play in 150cc when playing in 100cc actually gets you ranking vs 150cc getting you hmmm nothing really?
Maybe we could consider whoever suggested that before getting to the final 8 we might play N-SC only then final 8 would be anything goes?
Jones ballot for each SC would be perfect but I see the lack of voting as an issue as I said.
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No one is practicing hitting SCs on 150 cc
Says you;-)
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You're missing the point, Nate. Nobody cares about hitting shortcuts on 150cc. Items are something everybody's used to, because they're an integral part of GP/VS mode. Practicing hitting shortcuts by yourself in non-Time Trials is really boring. If Jones wants to call that "lazy," that's fine, but I think the idea is to make the tournament enjoyable for everyone, not enforce rules which require people to take the tournament more seriously than they want to, in order to have any chance of doing well.
I feel qualified to say this because I have practiced shortcuts extensively, which (among other things) allowed me to crack the top 8 and almost defeat Nate 1v1 in last year's tourney. As someone who's capable of executing just about every shortcut used at VA consistently, I say I would rather have them knocked out.
I don't have any specifics for shortcuts I want knocked out. Obviously nothing is going to compare to the Frappe Snowland/Kalimari Desert reasoning.
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/joking
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Nobody cares about hitting shortcuts on 150cc. [...]
Nobody? Just to cite one example, have the finals from the last few years not been more epic and exciting on Rainbow Road with its inclusion? The tension alone under high pressure at that point gets so thick, it can be cut with a hunting knife from GoldenEye.
I don't have any specifics for shortcuts I want knocked out. Obviously nothing is going to compare to the Frappe Snowland/Kalimari Desert reasoning.
If there is even one particular additional shortcut that anyone is truly passionate about banning, then surely just a few carefully-worded sentences can't be too hard to come up with. Heck, for Frappe I only needed two. :-)
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Doesn't seem like anyone is really passionate about this at all....
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I'm actually highly passionate about banning the Rainbow shortcut, not even because I suck at it (went 3/3 in 2009, 3/3 in 2011), but rather it's literally TOO MUCH pressure on someone in a close match. I've been dead-set on winning this thing since 2008 and it's hard to focus on that shortcut when you're so close to that championship trophy.
Just saying, it'd be a lot more fun for me personally and more of a pure race (not so spread out and item-dependent) without that silly jump.
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Doesn't seem like anyone is really passionate about this at all....
I am quite passionate about the tourney itself. I do not care much about the rules. Personally, I would lean more on the side of allow everything than allow nothing. Although ideally I would rather just see a ban list setup before hand
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I'm actually highly passionate about banning the Rainbow shortcut, not even because I suck at it (went 3/3 in 2009, 3/3 in 2011), but rather it's literally TOO MUCH pressure on someone in a close match. I've been dead-set on winning this thing since 2008 and it's hard to focus on that shortcut when you're so close to that championship trophy.
Just saying, it'd be a lot more fun for me personally and more of a pure race (not so spread out and item-dependent) without that silly jump.
Jimbo, isn't rising above the pressure and performing in the clutch when it matters the hallmark of a champion? The silly thing about banning Rainbow is that even casual players of kart attempt rainbow in their friendly races. I also agree with Wonn's sentiment about the drama of Rainbow and I think mostly everyone (spectators included) enjoy the tension of Rainbow exactly because of what could happen there. Seems like a perfect way to end to me.
I also echo Stinson's sentiments other than saying "I do not care about the rules". I think the rules are important and having a set rule structure in advance is something that I've been in favor of for a long time. Having a spur of the moment allow/ban conversation right before playing a track seems like a silly way to handle things IMHO so I'm glad these conversations are taking place now. I just wish more people would weigh in on them.
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yeah it would be great to see more people in this.
Also RRd SC is only awesome because it is on the last track same would happen if it was on WS with the 2nd SC in a tight race etc. The RRd SC itself is quite meaningless and useless though, if we start with RRd then LR would be as tense and maybe more since it's such a simple track. Racing the full track on RRd could prove to create more exciting races or just more boring ones, who knows we never played that in VA. But I think most people would still allow for WS and RRd because of time and blah blah even if a few more minutes total isn't that much since getting people to sit is the real issue not the round lasting too long.
I'll also add that as far as I'm concerned you either ban all the SCs (possibly keeping WS and RRd) or do not ban any (other than obvious ones) but I feel for Wonn here and agree that you can't just pick this one and that one without a reasoning. Why ban DK and not RRy or MR or LR or any other? I mean LR is possible without items but hard and almost useless since it's so hard, TT require no items, CM no items, MR seems it's possible without items the smaller wall is as well, RRy is possible without items, DK is possible without items, YV is possible without items. So basically if we ban them it's not due to items IMO.
So if you ban one then ban them all if you keep one, keep them all. This is just what I do not like about the current options. I'd rather see A all allowed B none allowed but WS RRd C none allowed including WS and RRd
Now asking everyone could be more democratic (if people do vote) but wouldn't it end in banning SCs that more people aren't good at rather than for good reasons? (like KD, FS etc) On top of people who are going to just ban all of them because they want a N-SC tournament.
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Also RRd SC is only awesome because it is on the last track. The SC itself is quite meaningless and useless though, if we start with RRd then LR would be as tense and maybe more since it's such a simple track.
And then we would have the opposite problem... the finals would be decided directly by who gets the clutch item instead of who can clutch the sc:-p
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You mean just like 90% of the tracks we play? Seems it's not that much of a problem for all of them, no?
I'm also not serious about this as I like RRd as the final race, just putting things in perspective here. It's a tense moment but isn't any final race that are decisive tense?
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and only one track can be the final and potentially deciding track we play.
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I know that :p and it is RRd, I'm just saying RRd with or without the SCs would be a tense race just the same as LR would be or if we draw the tracks out of a hat and play them the final one would be tense even if it's garbage MMF.
If I get a star and you a banana on the final box on 3 tracks and I beat you there but on RRd we are tied and you get a star and I get the banana for the only time out of 16. Would you just be lucky to win the whole thing? RRd is as important a track as LR is in total weight but people seems to forget what happened on the previous tracks. I would keep WS and RRd SCs myself as I'm a big fan of SCs and RRd is a simple matter of jumping on the correct color but nerves can make you miss. They aren't all that hard to perform but I wouldn't mind going N-SC all the way or all SC all the way, just not a fan of banning a SC for the sake of banning it.
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The main difference I see is that there are people who can consistently hit the jump 3/3. There isn't anyone who can consistently get clutch items (unless you are Jimbo not in the finals. zing)
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The main arguments I am hearing for banning SCs are: it makes the game longer. Isn't everyone pushing for a change to the GE format to make it shorter?
Yes, because Mario Kart is fun and Goldeneye is not. :$
Interesting points, PYL...I wouldn't be opposed to changing up the order of the tracks this year, although the current format might be the most logical.
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A different track order would be a fun experiment. It would just be logistically more difficult. Still sounds fun
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The main difference I see is that there are people who can consistently hit the jump 3/3. There isn't anyone who can consistently get clutch items (unless you are Jimbo not in the finals. zing)
Well that's pretty much the only reason to play this though isn't it? We can play TT if we want regular racing without items. Some people can consistently get faster MTs than others too maybe we should cap the amount of MTs per lap! I don't even see why items has been brought up TBH. Why not just play Forza/GTR/rFactor or Gran T instead?
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I never suggested banning items year :-p
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nor did I say you did but Mgay did and you said something about items and compared them with SCs which is ridiculous. A race without SC isn't based solely on items while RRd is pretty much only SC, if you miss it once and everyone gets 3/3 you will get last unless you can get someone else to fail the SC with an item. Seems close to LR to me without the sure loss if you fail the SC on lap 3. But anyway whenever you feel like contributing do go ahead instead of all those random japs :p (we all know there is one and only one final track, we all know some people can get the SC on RRd 3/3 and we all know you can't choose your item or "clutch them" as you said) I'm more interested in the why you want to keep SCs or not than all these posts
We're now voting for what should be on the ban list. Are the options fine or should they be tweaked to something else? You said you don't care but obviously you favor something, you favor SCs it seems so I guess you'd vote for A? What about you Jim you obviously favor something? Banning RRd SC so would you go with D? Mgay banning items will make this quite useless we all know who the pure raw racers are but what about the SCs should they be allowed or not? Rather see items banned than SC means you want to keep SCs? so A for you too?
We need more commitment from people not all those I don't care I'll play how it is. Everyone who play will play as it is and that "as it is" is being decided now. Only 8 of us have voted, this should have at least 16 voters. Would be awkward to just change it with 8 people voting and hen no one else knowing before getting to the meet :D
-are SCs a different mode than N-SCs in VS as it is on the Main TT site? If so which one should be represented? Is VAJ the real site champ (combined) or is it MJ (N-SC)?
-SCs make a comeback possible and can spice things up, it shortens some tracks too.
-would SCs just add another element of randomness on some tracks on top of items?
-Should we ban items or shark them to be equal? Is that possible?
-Some people can get an edge by being good at some SCs that some other don't know/can't execute. Is that fair? Is it just like having an edge by knowing the level by heart in GE?
-Should we play N-SC for play-ins and first round then anything goes for the final 8 and onward?
-Have a voting on each SCs from everyone and deal with it no matter what the reason is for banning the SC? this would be the only and official rules fro the entire tournament
-Stick with the current choices of possibly banning only DK or RRy or nothing?
I feel their has been some good points for SCs and some good points for N-SC. Both would be viable options as far as I'm concerned, SCs are more fun to watch I would think? They might remove some of the racing skills needed and add some SC knowledge needed but they add item options. Is that necessarily bad? We shouldn't just change the format because GE changed his. I have a lot more fun watching Kart than I do watching GE so MK is already interesting. Should we try and mix things up a lot when we already have a working formula? Seems we at least all agree that this yelling before the race start about SC had to go. We only need to find what to replace it with :p
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and compared them with SCs which is ridiculous.
I disagree
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I haven't been online as much in recent days, with my sister getting into an accident by a drunk hit-skip on her birthday of all days. Plus Mothers Day is around the corner, and I'm swamped with things hitting me in every direction. Therefore the bickering here has been petty in comparison, and I have not had time to deal with it. However, I am glad that more of the finalists and semi-finalists are contributing their thoughts since then, and I will continue to read what I have missed in my absence.
As it stands, I gave an alternative to III-A, -B, and -C. We'll tentatively call it III-D, where you must give a good argument for each and every shortcut you plan to ban. (See my Frappe example in my previous post higher up on page 2 for details.) So far nobody has provided solid reasons specific to any shortcut outside of the III-A, -B, and -C options. And I am still offering the possibility of both B & C passing if they each get 40% plurality. This is why I said before that the "write-in" (III-D) votes only serve to hinder this possibility, especially if reasons aren't solid and well-written!
If we don't get enough solid representation for III by the end of this month, then we will stick with the I-B and II-B changes for this year. I cannot extend this deadline any further under any circumstances! Period. I'll be lucky if I even have time to get my craptop(s) prepared with the spreadsheet changes as it is, between being busy with work, side projects, and another trip planned prior to the Va. meet. This is all the more reason why someone else will run this in future meets.
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Wonn, you should IM me sometime soon. I can help work out some of this.
Also, how is your sister doing?
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As it stands, I gave an alternative to III-A, -B, and -C. We'll tentatively call it III-D, where you must give a good argument for each and every shortcut you plan to ban. (See my Frappe example in my previous post higher up on page 2 for details.) So far nobody has provided solid reasons specific to any shortcut outside of the III-A, -B, and -C options. And I am still offering the possibility of both B & C passing if they each get 40% plurality. This is why I said before that the "write-in" (III-D) votes only serve to hinder this possibility, especially if reasons aren't solid and well-written!
If we don't get enough solid representation for III by the end of this month, then we will stick with the I-B and II-B changes for this year.
I just never got where the options came from? What were the reasons for proposing RRy or DK to be banned over any of the other SCs? RRy using a shroom is bad? So we should also ban MR with shroom since triple there is also a big advantage and LR with shroom even if it's hard, it seems to tag along DK's "it takes more skills to get it but follows the same theme as RRy and MR".
That brings us to why DK then? "We opted to ban it in the 2009 finals, and it follows the theme of the other three lap skippers" shouldn't we also ban YV (huge lap skipper) and TT (fairly big skip on lap 2-3)?
I just don't see any good reason as to why RRy or DK would just be granted a skip on the "simply justify in 2 lines why it should be banned" thing. We all know Frappe is the easiest thing to justify since it's unfair to only one of the player. The other "explanations" are hardly strong. WS make the track more interesting? Well woudn't RRd without SC also make it more interesting following the same logic and just about all the SCs? Why would WS 2nd half be more interesting than the 1st half (other than the obvious it's been like this since 1998) or RRd 1st quarter or third or whatever % it is?
Now don't get me wrong I do agree about including WS and RRd SCs (heck why not just make it that the only wall you can jump is the one that is banned right now on WS? missing left would be a real killer :p. Or only ban the 2 regular SC walls and then you can jump any other walls surely that IS interesting?) I'm just saying that other than FS nothing is as easy to justify as you're trying to make it sound. Would be as hard as stating why each SCs should be allowed instead when talking to someone biased toward N-SC (a good argument, not just that it makes things faster, it's more fun/interesting, or that they "are in the game" since FS is actually in the game ;) ).
All in all I think the III options are badly done and shouldn't be. I'm fine sticking with IB and IIB for now but it would be quite interesting to try and make things move forward a bit. A set list of ban is a great first step IMO, any tournament have a set rules. We would just need more people in here, discussing this.
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^
Royal Raceway shroom cut was one of the more complained about scs only recently by several Eliters, since the Triple Shroom is potentially overpowered there more than on any other track. At least that was their argument, not mine. Of course you and I and all the other Karters know that shortcut is doable even in 100cc Time Trials shroomless. Personally, I'd rather keep it intact, but I left that option to see whether the hating on Royal would outweigh a lap skip in another track. That brings me to the next point:
DK's Jungle Parkway lap skip was a common pick to ban in previous meets. Sure, it was legal in several rounds and even semi-finals, but since there was precedent for banning it in the 2009 finals, I made it an option for this year. Personally, I'd rather keep it legal, but I left that option open.
As for Wario Stadium, it's too long a track to be interesting to everyone (including spectators) if played strictly non-sc. Given the choice, the 2nd half of the track is far more interesting because it includes the big jump, which makes it especially nasty for lightning bolts and even bananas. The 2nd half lap skip was the most frequently banned shortcut in the Virginia meets, aside from the auto-banned Frappe full lap skip. Personally, I like the 2nd half lap skip, but I completely understand the other side in wanting to have at least something to race here. Banning everything in 1997 and allowing everything in the 2006 St. Louis meet (as an experiment that year) taught me that there had to be some middle ground for future tournaments.
And yes, I agree it would be nice to hear from other top players. Eddie? Andrew? BTW, sis is doing well, all things considered.
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I guess that kind of make sense. Then again that translate into RRy being too hard to hit for them it seems? That's not valid IMO.
As for WS, sure the 2nd half has the jump unfortunately we never really jump it since we can use the other SC just before it. I always thought it was a weird track since we ban the direct SC but you can do a turn to the right then the U turn and jump back right there at the end of the straight instead. Banning the 1st SC would make it have a decent length at least and creativity could happen on walls being jumped etc.
There is also a big risk involved by the 2nd SC and I actually think the 1st half is interesting to race: 2 big hills perfect for traps with the blind landing, there are more turns. If you don't feel like trying the 2nd SC you can drive slightly farther and attempt the one used currently.
I don't think I'd be a big fan of seeing 4 karters go around in circle in that bumpy place in WS by allowing both normal SCs. Hard to follow for sure since lap 1-2-3 you are always in the same spot / bumping into others.
Out of the 3 options you proposed I think A is the only logical choice since banning any of the single SCs seems absurd to me. Sure a triple shrooms gain you more on RRy than on MR but winning by 55 seconds or 2 gets you the same amount of points and having a triple on MR is just as deadly for points as on RRy even if you gain less time by it (the track is shorter anyway so in a ratio it's still a big amount). You either ban them in bulks (or all) or not at all.
I'd move the voting between your III-A Trent's III-D and Trent's III-E imo. I don't think you like that though but at least it might be kept for after this meet if we try some N-SC rounds etc.
Would you be open to a N-SC for the first rounds then SCs are allowed, from II-B, for the final 8 and onward?
I'd like to play some N-SC rounds this year if some people are up to it just to see how it looks with Trent, Tyler, Scott and some others? Might have to take infil on his last year's words and invite him for a round!
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Well, your proposal to use the other half of Wario Stadium is certainly intriguing, but I'd have to warn everyone that I am good at that 2nd half lap skip, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQa_lZfWb5k#) probably from all the sc Time Trials in the past. It's safe to say if we played that half of the track, then I'd never be using the big jump, whereas with the current setup, people are still likely to have to take the jump because the other shortcuts are easy to goof up. Trust me, you don't want me doing that 2nd half lap skip. :-)
Anyway as mentioned previously, banning all shortcuts is also too drastic a change to do this year. If anything, shortening rounds by allowing shortcuts can potentially give us time to throw in another round this year, time permitting. And even with several shortcuts allowed, many are never even used, but having the option there is what really adds to the overal strategy.
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well I don't really care if you can get it 3/3 all the time, you'll get 1st, on 1 track out of 16 and I can still get 2nd so you gain 3 points out of a possible 144. Or if it's 3-2-1 then you gain a single point out of 48. I'm hardly in any trouble!
Plus I'm not too terrible at the SC myself so missing it once or twice I can still catch you on the N-SC part with items etc.
I don't really remember much lightning taking place in WS, the final SC is as hard to miss as this regular SC. If I miss it while being 1st and someone has a lightning I'll be sure to retry the SC and not go over the jump :p
But yeah I certainly hope people will be willing to try some other for fun things like 1st WS part or no regular SCs at all. Could be fun! :)
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Well since I'm not showing up, and well I'm pretty late to the party on making any comments on this thread, I obviously do not get a vote, for anyone that values my opinion (probably based on my WW playing, that's probably very few, but oh well..) here it is below:
The Simple Format before explaining. 1B,2B*,3B+ (but I'm very torn on the last 2)
The Explanation for 1B is that the whole tourney is based on playing 3 or 4 players in VS without computers. We did GP in 2006, but that was after a round robin VS tourney of 8 rounds was completed, so it was a way of sneaking a second mode in there for the top 4 finishers of the VS tourney basically, so doing a semi with top 2 in each twin 4p going to the finals I am very strongly for! If people want to do GP, you can get people together after maybe a round complete or 2 rounds complete and do it separate as time allows.
Now for 2B, It would be the one I would agree to out of the given choices that I got to choose from. I would propose an amendment to the Bans though, and I would opt to only Ban the KD Star before Lap 2. I have to state it that way, otherwise you could stay on lap 0 and race backwards and rack stars to use the SC as a lap skip, which would be just like doing a full lap skip like FS or both WS skips, like mentioned in the rule. and WS, call me crazy, but I would almost suggest banning all SCs here, to give people the chance to get Bolts or Ghosts. This is one I'm very torn on, but I like the items coming more into play on this strategy, so I would be open to an amendment like that, but okay with just doing the first SC starting at finish line and ending at the bottom of the 4th hump as the only SC allowed, (not counting enemy item use or idle items used after player completes a full lap after launching his own weapon, giving his opponent a chance to remove said advantageous item)
for 3B I figure if we ban DK, we also Ban the other full lap skips, even though they are harder complete. so that reemphasizes WS duel and FS full lap, but also puts YV SC up there. There was a time I could land YV SC quite frequently, and I demonstrated to Wonn/Stinson how easy it is to line up, even in a pressure situation. MY round 3 would have been a 3/3 YV SC race but I got bolted just before I got over the fence. But ya, in summary.
1B,2B,3B would be my votes, if I got a vote, but I don't, so leaving it to those that are attending and will be directly affected by the rules, which I won't, cause I won't be playing.
FROM THIS POINT ON:
Once again, cause of my WW playing, I'm sure nobody cares, but for those that do, as a person that used to run the kart site, and ran the 2006 meet at my own house, and has vast experience running tourneys covering not just video games, but athletics and many other things, I'm going to give you some food for thought and I'll leave it to those that make things happen to take it or leave it. (I'm expecting leave it but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised)
1. For every 4 players you have in a regular round, have ONE working TV, and use them every round!
2. Commit to a schedule of when to start and stop the tourney regular rounds, playoff rounds, and final rounds! Agree to do a through amount of rounds to adequately have an actual tourney.
3. Keep strength of schedule in mind, and balance the rounds as best as you can. I don't expect 16 rounds completed in a 16 person tourney, but 2 or 3 rounds in a serious tourney is NOT a tourney!
4. Keep track of all results for every race
5. record every race
6. someone with online access email me live round updates from the site so we can have a good way or releasing instead of doing the leak method, which makes the results way less exciting. (I would post it with analysis fast, so include everyone's take, even spectators!, but especially participants!)
I'm sure I'm leaving some stuff out, but I figure I would pass this on, and well that's all I got for now.
EDIT: I did. For SCs, only allow Rainbow Road, since it is the last track, but ban the rest as according to Chuck Tesche rules combined with item theory by David Wonn. Have a separate SC bash for those that like SCs where you have to successfully do an SC each lap, or do an approved "long cut" in it's place. I'll make rules for that if anyone cares!
and last 3 comments and I'm done til I get flamed goose style... #1 If you play GP, and the comp cheats, tough shit! and #2 if you are afraid to play a track that's actually in the game to break a tie breaker, than you must not believe in playing all of kart 64, cause TT Reverse is part of the game! And different track order? Didn't Nintendo set the tracks in a certain order for a reason? That is all.
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Upon reading recent comments, especially from PY and Kevin, I thought about making one of the options more consistent. Should I change III-B to "ban all lap skips"? This would of course include everything that passed in II-B (now III-A), as well as DKJP and YV lap skips as the 4th and 5th bans.
If there isn't further interest in the vote on III, this topic will be closed, and the votes of I-B and II-B will stand. I have some serious spreadsheet changes to do, and I think everyone will like the newest enhancements, assuming I get it done in time. And I'm going to pull it off with just Excel 5.0 format this time around....
*** Final Update 5/31 ***
Rules I-B and II-B are the two official changes this year as it stands. Now I can hopefully get the master spreadsheet finalized. I will also print some sheets and bring them to Virginia this time to standardize score-keeping instead of just grabbing the nearest scrap sheet of paper this year. This should help prevent Kart round scores from getting mixed up (and re-used) with GE and ping pong score sheets.
5-8008BF4C-0F
80076F1C
46105480