The Elite Forum
The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: RWG on September 24, 2012, 05:37:53 am
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I didn't really want to make this thread, but discussion is all over the place right now so whatever. Convene it all here. Discuss what you've tried and what you think in regards to the alleged new Train strat here.
My thoughts -
Axel's quote says
i'm speechless
i'm shocked tbh
omfg
what did i just see
congrats on the untieds btw
henrik is no longer train master :p
genius
yeah no one has thought about this before
wow
again, amazing
-Axel Zakrisson
"no one has thought about this before."
I don't really know what we've thought about before, but this quote makes it seem that the new strat is not obvious. So that's that.
I also don't think it has anything to do with getting outside the train early, because that's pretty much what we already do, and we fade the level out the exact earliest moment we can already. The "Nat doesn't follow you glitch." This might be part of it, as you'll read, but something else has to be sped up.
Two things are worth note imo:
1) Trent is a shitty Train player. He has 1:13 Agent (and I have no idea why he posted the fake 1:11 because that only reduced his credibility, but whatever.) So it's not like he is going super fast on these 1:22/1:49 runs. Whatever he does here, Marc and the other top Train players can probably cut down 5-10 seconds.
2) The difference in time between his claimed SA 1:22 and 00A 1:49 is very normal. 27 sec difference. I believe the true difference in time it takes Nat to complete the objectives is 24 seconds, but 27 is normal. Old WRs were 1:24 and 1:50, 1:42 and 2:10.
So that leads me to believe that Trent has not found a way to speed up Nat's completion of objectives. Otherwise I think we'd see a way lower 00A time. Like, if you were able to just shoot her in between her speeches to speed that up, then the difference in SA/00A WR times would get a lot smaller.
If you play Train SA/00A, you notice that Nat takes a while to start working on her objectives. It's in this time that we usually do the locks. Just sit there and watch her. She waits a long time. I roughly timed this and from when you kill Ourumov until Nat's first computer hacking motion, she stands motionless for around 20 seconds before doing anything. I think the new strategy involves reducing this amount of time.
I don't know how. But from my 7 years of Goldeneye speedrunning experience, this is the only spot I can come up with in Train where a new strat could save time. I've just tried shooting her a la Statue's Trev shot and haven't found much noteworthy. If you shoot her hands so she backs up really far, then look away, she'll warp back to the terminal. But I don't think this is relevant.
I also don't know how this would affect doing the locks and Nat following you out. So possibly you need to also do the "Nat doesn't follow" glitch. I'm not sure how that works but maybe someone who does will explain.
So yeah. I think it's reasonable to believe that if you can get Nat to start working immediately, this would save 15-20 seconds. And Trent is probably capable of 1:37/2:04 old strat. It's my best guess right now.
I also want to investigate getting into the back area (where Xenia and Trev are) but I completely forget how to do this.
Of course there is also the possibility of Trent like getting outside the train early or having the brakes blow themselves up or something else completely unfathomable.
Anyways, speculate, waste time, etc, here.
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I think you might only be able to get to the back area with turbo mode.
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Wouter did it without turbo. (Theres a vid of it somewhere)
About the strat, i came to similar conclusions that it most likely involves skipping the delay time but i cant figure out any way of doing that without the nat not following you glitch.
Heres some things you can rule out:
Playing a certain level before train (at least not the first 16, i tested all up to control)
Skipping brakes
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Could it be that skipping the brakes may work because there is a similar chain of events like on Deep Sea PAL Agent? There it is ...
Usually: Elvis completes his hacking => causes skedar weapon to blow up => objective complete
Trick: blow up skedar weapon yourself with far sight => objective complete
And maybe on train ...
Usually: Destroy all brakes -> triggers event X => causes objective completion
Trick: Somehow trigger event X yourself => causes objective completion
Theory pros:
- 122/149 could be reasonable times with skipped brakes, since the duration of the ending is pretty much fixed on SA/00A as long as you make the locks
- He couldn't untie Agent since this would still require insane locks
Theory contras:
- I doubt that the "Somehow trigger event X yourself" could've remained unknown to this day after thousands of people fooled around with all cheats and shot hundreds of rockets on every single pixel of the level
EDIT
Oh, just saw the other thread in General Chat about this. So this is prolly bullshit :P
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Must be something crazy, otherwise AxelZ wouldn't be "shocked and speechless".
I would be shocked for example if the brakes are skippable.
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Judging by Trent's recent glitch videos, I'm going to guess it's a timer glitch that's common among Silo, Statue and Train. Perhaps a frame-perfect pause could cause the timer to "enable" but not be given any value, therefore making it end immediately after unpausing.
The fact that Trent's taken a few days without any new PR could indicate that it's difficult to do.
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1:22/1:49 would be pretty strong times even if the brakes were skippable, especially on NTSC. Destroying the brakes don't waste that much time, so I doubt it's something to do with the brakes..
The fact that Trent's taken a few days without any new PR could indicate that it's difficult to do.
Or he's hoarding the strat until he gets solid WRs. He seemingly got the untieds within a span of ~2.5 hours and hasn't been active since then (on his account at least).
The frame-perfect pausing is an interesting theory however. It could be that.. but then that means the glitch could be exploited in other levels where there's a timer. Also, it's worth noting that using an emulator might help here. You can walk through doors, vents, etc. and utilise the save-state feature of course. I've tried a few different things but haven't had any luck so far.
Edit - 1:42 and 2:10.
Get your facts straight.
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I'll test the timer pause idea with TAS.
Edit: ^^ Didn't work or do anything.
I did a test yesterday where i forced the final door open without destroying the brakes. The mission still fails even if you complete everything else, so therefor, skipping brakes is impossible. (also it doesn't save enough time to make untieds possible by non-top-train-players.)
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Hmm.. actually, I don't think it could be a glitch in the countdown timer. If that was the case, I'd expect the WR on 00A to be roughly the same as on SA. It probably is to do with the "wait for timer to start" timer.
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From the topic in General Chat
Henrik 1:
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It's been theorized by myself (eye-witness to the infant stages of this find in VA), Boss, and David Clemens that this trick requires Natalya to do nothing when you exit the train car ("escape" objective already complete in car, as seen in VA) and for her to speak out her lines instantly when shot at (same thing is done in Control).
Is the "Natalya not following you" glitch for Jap only or has it been observed on normal NTSC/PAL as well? I'd find it kind of strange if something like that suddenly starts happening regularly after not being observed even once in 15 years.
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It's been theorized by myself (eye-witness to the infant stages of this find in VA), Boss, and David Clemens that this trick requires Natalya to do nothing when you exit the train car ("escape" objective already complete in car, as seen in VA) and for her to speak out her lines instantly when shot at (same thing is done in Control).
Normally there's a delay timer between Ouro's death and Natalya starting to work (this is the delay i utilized with my strat). Shooting Natalya shouldn't do anything to change/skip this timer, or any timer for that matter (including control). Timers simply indicate the minimum amount of time that needs to pass before the next speech can be allowed to start. When that time has come, the game start checking if there's any animation currently running, and wait's until it's finished. So what shooting does is that it interrupts the current animation and ensures that speech starts ASAP after timer has reached it's target value.
So completely skipping a timer has never been done before and normally i would say it was impossible. However, if the game indeed thinks that Natalya somehow already escaped, then some of her logic has obviously been skipped already, perhaps including the delay timer, but not the objective/speeches timer. I have no idea why the "Natalya not following you" happens in the first place though.
Henrik 2:
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I was thinking more along the lines of instant objective completion after a shooting animation, not necessarily an objective completion by skipping the timer altogether?
Oh i thought you meant shooting her so she starts her work earlier? (She stands and waits for like 10+ secs before she starts working, it was those seconds that i meant would be skipped)
I kinda doubt "instant objective completion" is possible by shooting, at least not under normal circumstances. The objectives on Train are not tied to animations like the speeches on Control and therefor i can't see why shooting would make any diffrence.
For example, I noticed yesterday that you can kill Natalya and the objectives/speeches continue even during her death animation xD ( but unfortunately not after she's faded out )
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Trent was playing on my American cart when we first saw this happen. He was inside the car and showed the escape objective as "completed" while Nat was still standing in place...
Interresting. Any theories as to how it can be recreated?
David Wonn:
I'll fire up GE this week to test a theory or two. Trent was playing Train quite a bit at the Va. meet on one of the small TVs upstairs, but unfortunately I wasn't paying close attention to details, like whether he was playing Japanese or US NTSC, etc. One of his comments in the Va. meet thread regarding people walking in front of the screen might clue me in to something, as strange as that sounds. At least this isn't one of the weeks where I'm working so much overtime....
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"no one has thought about this before."
I don't really know what we've thought about before, but this quote makes it seem that the new strat is not obvious. So that's that.
No. The new strat is probably so damned obvious and simple (by idea) that this is exactly why he said that.
Maybe its not obvious to speedrunners though, as they are used to completing a stage in one certain way, namely the latest and fastest known route at that time to complete the stage on. My guess is that it will be something really simple by idea, like completing objectives in a different order or whatever. IMO its unlikely for it to be a totally NEW glitch when someone responds with "no one has thought about this before". In that case it would have made more sense if he'd said something along the lines of "how did you do that lol".
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Just forget it until Trent shows us what it is. I'm sure none of us will just randomly figure it out.
Also Im pretty sure it doesnt just work on Train.
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Since they discovered the 2.x strategies i don't think you should deny times with glitches.
Anyway..