The Elite Forum
The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: RWG on November 25, 2012, 12:40:43 pm
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Normally I am very against removing someone from the rankings. I honestly believe that in the case of faked times and lies, those fakes should be removed and the legitimate times should stay on the rankings. This is what usually has been done and I believe it is appropriate in most cases.
However in most cases, the player in question has usually specified which of their times are fake and which are real after a while. Henning has not done this. Henning at first only said his 1:06 and 1:07 00A and SA 1:00 were fake, then after more pressure admitted the 2nd 0:23 and the Control SA 4:11. THEN he took back that his 1:00 was fake and claimed it was a time not saved run. Then he sent this video to ONLY the moderators Axel and YE and somehow Jimbo as well. (Remind you of the circuit board strat at all?)
Basically, Henning can not be trusted whatsoever at this point. We can't be sure that any of his times are real at all. I believe he should be removed from the rankings temporarily, until we can figure out which of his times are real and which are fake. Keep in mind this will require watching all 60 of his personal records and then asking Henning on public forum about any inconsistencies, since this is the only way he admits the truth. Once we compile a list of his real records, then he can be re-added to the rankings.
***IF HENNING'S FRIGATE SA 1:00 IS REAL, THEN WHY DID HE REMOVE IT FROM THE RANKINGS HIMSELF IMMEDIATELY AFTER WE REVEALED HE MADE FAKE VIDS?***
Apparently there is a 1:00 tns floating around that the mods & admin are "unsure" of it's authenticity. IMO he obviously made another FAKE video showing tns once he came up with that story. This is just getting ridiculous and Henning needs to be removed ASAP until we figure out what is real and what's not.
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Okay now it's come out that Henning uploaded a 1:00 time not saved to youtube (apparently) and then quickly removed it. Umm you guys cannot be serious right now.
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I'm sorry Henning, but I have to:
Hello Jimbo!
The Frigate 1:00 is not completely faked. Its just that I dont think I should have it on the rankings because I simply dont deserve it. They wouldnt just shut up about the tns 100 vid so I remade the end screen on that 1:04 best time to have a bit weird audio so other would notice and question it, other than that, the run is real but I wont ever release the original video for it. I just simply call it faked because now its not ever going up and I think thats the punishment I deserve for what Ive done and no, you cant change my mind about this. Also other eliters would never think I did it for real anyway even with the legit vid so this is the best way imo.
All my pr's/times that I have on the ranks now are real, just check through them and if there is anything that seems weird I just dupe that time/pr w/o mouthing back. I had this little period in the beginning of 2011 where I faked videos when I had a gameshark which I got rid of in feb 2011. Frig 23 (2) was because I wanted a 23 best time, 100 best time, Control SA 4:11 was faked due to me failing getting a vid of that time three times somehow, however I improved it to 4:09 anyway and Frigate 107, 106 was just dumb. I also said this to AxZ and Clemens when I first confessed about my fake runs and you can just ask them about this. Clemens also knows about the story of 1:00 but he and you are the only ones who knows so I just hope you can keep this to yourself.
However I'll do everything I can do to prove myself as a legit player from now on because now everyone is prolly doubting me (with rights). Just not sure how the best way is but yeah, I guess playing live infront of a cam is the best way to go for me like you mentioned in some post so I set that I wont play GE until Im able to do this.
By the way, my best proven Frigate SA time is 1:05 which Ive already set on the rankings.
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That sounds like an attempt to have people ignore the fact that the video never happened and go "oh since it's the untied WR and its' real, Henning DOES deserve it on the ranks!" Henning is playing to the crowd there, trying to get us to buy his 1:00 being real by saying he deserves it off the ranks as punishment.
Everyone - the 1:00 is not real.
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just check through them and if there is anything that seems weird I just dupe that time/pr w/o mouthing back.
LOOOOOOL Clearly sound like "I faked other vids but I wont tell you. If you find it, ok I'll remove the time".
God damn, please remove all his times, he'll never stop lying at this point. Impossible to trust that guy anymore.
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Lol wtf Goose Im not trying to play with the crowd! Why'd I secretly send a PM to Jimbo if I wanted to do that? Thats a silly theory. I never intended to just suddenly release the vid of tns 100 to make everyone go "wow put that on the ranks, you deserve it!". My intention was to make sure everyone thought it was a fake so it cant go up. No matter what I do now it wont go up no matter if its real or not and thats exactly how I wanted because I DO NOT DESERVE IT. You say I faked it, fine I dont care, then isnt it good that it CANT go up??? The chance of 100 going up is 0.00% so you guys dont have to worry about a "fake" wr going up.
No Brio thats not why I wrote that. My pr's are what I have on the rankings, this is what I said all the time. If a vid is sketchy, fine, I just dupe it but that does not mean its a fake, I only dupe it because you cant trust me or whatever, its simple as that.
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"When you find out my PR on the rankings is fake, let me know, so I'll actually have to put in the effort to actually get it this time around; instead of just conveniently faking the vid."
Are any of your 60 PRs real? Or are you just going to only play GE when someone finds a PR of yours to be suspicious? Lol.
Start off by duping Depot 00 47 because that's just as sketchy as your Frigate "real WRs but I want people to think they're fake because I don't deserve it" WRs.
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No the 47 is not just as sketchy as my Frigate runs because I got that one live on twitch, you even saw it so wtf, the theory of a spliced session is ridicilous, all the objectives completes on screen, its a clear 47 pace and I have the .VOB for that one and I can send it to anyone who asks for it tho nobody has so what can I do? I did not do any of the Frig runs on twitch or have the VOB's for them so you cant even compare them. All 60 times of mine are real.
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So you're basically admitting the 1:00 is fake in that post.
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Voting season goes on! :D
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The admins need to make a move. Boss is being cheated out of 4th place. This is a travesty.
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At the very beginning of this whole Henning faking issue, I would have completely disagreed with this but after knowing that he continued to keep his secrets after admitting that his Frigate 00a runs were fake just changed everything. It's even worse knowing that he could probably still be keeping even more secrets from us. The integrity and trust for him is completely gone and it will be very difficult to get it back.
There isn't really a punishment good enough. What? Will be just make him have to get moderator approval before putting a time on the rankings? Will we ban him from the boards for a few months? Those punishments just aren't good enough. I'm honestly 100% for taking his times off the ranks temporarily.
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If Henning's times are removed, I will also remove mine. I think I can get a few other top players to go in on this with me.
Goose just wants an easy way into the top 5.
Also, consider the fact that I was the only person really "harmed" by Henning lying about his times and I dont even give a fuck. Hes clearly a legit player, maybe a more appropriate measure would be to require him to provide runs captured live with a digicam AND capture quality to provide further assurance they are legit. This whole "you faked a run and lied so you're banned forever" mentality is just way too unforgiving and strict imo.
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Now I don't know many (if any) of the people of the people in this argument. Hell - I'm so green here, and I'm not afraid to admit it.
But this whole community polling thing is rubbish. What is needed is decisive decisions from impartial moderators. If such action were taken immediately - then this whole affair would be half the size a blow out as it currently is.
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If Henning's times are removed, I will also remove mine. :nesquik: I think I can get a few other top players to go in on this with me. :nesquik:
:nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik:
What is needed is decisive decisions :nesquik: from impartial moderators :nesquik:. If such action were taken immediately - then this whole affair would be half the size a blow out as it currently is.
:nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik:
David, you accuse Goose of trying to do all this JUST to get into the top 5. Your flailing attempts at defending a cheater of this magnitude (Henning) by slandering the person (Goose) who proved Henning's time were faked is immature and ridiculous. I'm not certain of the relationship between you and Ryan, but you simply cannot dismiss the fact that he is absolutely right (pointing out that Henning's time were faked) and that Henning was clearly wrong (by ONLY admitting faked times when they were questioned).
Removing YOUR times is irrelevant and will achieve nothing. It has nothing to do with the situation whatsoever. Exercise even the littlest bit of wisdom here and realize that. At the time of posting this 17 of 31 voters think Henning's MULTIPLE offenses warrant TEMPORARY banning until HE proves himself under the strictest scrutiny. I simply cannot understand why you are making this an attack against you. Seems desperate and attention driven. You think other "top" players will join your "I tolerate cheating and lying about cheating until I'm busted" crusade? Who? Ace, Marc, Bryan, Illu, Goose, me, Bauer, Lovins? Marc, Goose and myself def wont take our times down for this reason. I cannot say about the other guys (Eddie certainly doesn't even know about the situation, thus doesn't care. Similar with Bauer I'd guess). The point is IT DOESN'T MATTER if you try to start a weird Team Goose vs. Team Henning/Clemens thing. Henning will still have made multiple ridiculous judgement errors.
I'm just speaking my mind here, just so you know. Please don't feel attacked by me, Dave (or Henning). I'm trying to convey my thoughts on the situation. Personally I have no qualms with Henning and I consider Dave a friend here at the elite. But those qualities ALSO don't affect my judgement here. If ANYBODY else had done/were doing what Henning is, I'd feel the exact same towards THOSE actions as well.
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Have all of his future PRs streamed live is an easy fix. We dont need to dissect his entire times page. Backroll the frigate times
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The point is Henning's times wont be backrolled if other people threaten to take their own times down if they are. Because then the ranks are going to fucked. Its ludicrous that people want to take his times down when he has proven himself as a great player. I trust him as a friend and he has told me over and over that those 4 times are the only ones he has faked. He would have admitted it to me if he had other fakes.
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It's going to be a real shocker for Clemens the first time he gets cheated on by a girl and he learns that people actually lie even though they say "okay I lied that one time, but trust me I'm not lying any more!"
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(https://forums.the-elite.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdelta-chan.ru%2Fvg%2Fsrc%2F134320783571.png&hash=640e300a054968209e7cfdfa6247807ff1abc6bc)
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If Henning's times are removed, I will also remove mine. I think I can get a few other top players to go in on this with me.
If Henning's times *aren't* removed, *I* will remove mine.
Your move Clemens. :nesquik: (https://forums.the-elite.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitchtvfaces.com%2Fimages%2FKappa.png&hash=17a49619750c5c77960f8bf53f4329786773816a)
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Fanny already summed up my thoughts regarding Clemens' post but I thought I'd still give my two cents. I do not see the problem with the staff removing Henning's times temporarily. Just look at what Henning has done. He kept his fake untied Frigate SA WR as a secret for two years. Goose had to reveal this secret himself (Good detective work Goose) but even after the strong evidence that the 1:00 was faked, Henning continue to claim that it was not faked. However, he did admit his 00a times were faked so that was a good start. If this petition were to be established with only those times faked, I would select 'no' on the polls but unfortunately, Henning faked other runs as well. The worst part about that was that he admit more times being faked a few days after he admit the 00a runs were faked. Why would he do this? Why not just tell us all the times faked in one go? It would have made the job for the staff/community much easier. We're all unsure what times are fake or real now because of all this so you cannot be completely certain that all of his records are genuine.
I'm not sure why you would remove your times to protest against this act. It's not like Henning's times are being removed permanently or he is being banned for a long time. You doing that will not help the situation at all, it's just adding fuel to the fire but if you want to actually go ahead and take away all your times, go ahead, I respect your decision. Saying Goose's intentions are primarily to just get into the top 5 is just you assuming things. Plus, even if he those are his intentions, it does not guarantee Goose a top spot. There is still the gap Ryan needs to shorten and Henning could still have a lot of his real times left on the ranks. I am unable see what you mean by you were the only 'harmed'. We were all harmed, look at what has happened. All of trust has disappeared and a lot of us are disappointed/angry now. If you meant you were the only harmed in the rankings then I understand. "Hes clearly a legit player", how can you be so sure after all that has happened in the past two weeks? Also, I would like to say that your assumption on our mentality is wrong. We don't want him banned forever. We just want to remove from the ranks temporarily to check the legitimacy of his times, I can't stress that enough.
I concur, Henning is talented player. I'm sure most of you have seen him play at meets/streams so you know his skills are there but even if he is a very good player, it does not justify that his runs are real. If we don't check all of his runs then there COULD be some runs that are fake and they will be left on the rankings indefinitely. I know you and I (Clemens) don't have the same relationship with Henning as I'm very new so our opinions might differ. I have complete respect for you Clemens but I just don't agree with what you stated previously. Hopefully this whole thing can be sorted out quickly and smoothly.
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Good post, Philip. You are very intelligent, especially considering your age :)
It's a shame that this situation was not kept as SIMPLE as possible. Until now people have been arguing cross over on the boards back and forth and it's a complete clusterfuck. The Elite has a proof policy (Where the fuck is it?) Are there any more policy than the proof policy? Are there no rules for cheating in advantage? If the rules were all set in advantage and something we all could have easy access to read, then there would be no excuse for cheating. You simply couldn't feel sorry for henning being banned for life, if the rules were already set in advantage and it is there for everybody to read.
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Good post, Philip. You are very intelligent, especially considering your age :)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZZHkt.gif)
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It's going to be a real shocker for Clemens the first time he gets cheated on by a girl and he learns that people actually lie even though they say "okay I lied that one time, but trust me I'm not lying any more!"
It's a shame Goose has to bring his tragic love life into everything :-\
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Not sure if this still applies, but from the 2005 proof policy:
* As of February 1st, 2005 and following, all times submitted to the Elite will be considered the joint property of the-elite.net and the individual responsible for said times. - The actions taken by Karl last year led to a huge number of headaches for the t-e.n staff. There have also been issues in the past with members attempting to "take the rankings hostage" by removing/faking their times in an attempt to get some kind of message across (or occasionally just because they felt like it). This new policy should effectively do away with such troubles, as long as players keep two things in mind...
Do something stupid with your page, and your times will be frozen. "Frozen" means the times themselves will remain exactly as they were before your idiot move, but your ability to update your own times will be suspended. You may eventually regain your updating abilities at some later point, depending on your attitude.
Under this policy taking the rankings hostage would at least be preventable. I think this is another reason why we need an updated, comprehensive proof policy posted officially somewhere and not scattered across forum posts and ancient pages.
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I agree that a poll isn't really the best way to deal with this.
It's a complicated issue. I'm not really certain if Henning "came out" the second time because he just wanted to get this all over with and move on, or what. I'm glad he's stuck around and is trying to prove himself through PD or by streaming live. I think that's a great step back. He is clearly a very good player and I would hate to lose that talent on the rankings.
However, the attitude toward cheaters in the past has complicated this issue. If there was a zero tolerance policy, then case would be closed. As it is, there has been so much lenience given in the past (including toward you Ryan) that I can't make head or tail of what should be done.
Surely not all, if any, of his remaining times are fake, though I am very disappointed in the mono/stereo vid.
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I was checking out all of the Control Agent videos (since that's my next PR to improve) and I noticed Henning has a 3:59 with no ending cinema, no time saved, but all objectives completed... can someone explain this?
Henning Blom - Control Agent 3:59 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3Ig8dvIKGk#)
If not, we got a reaaaaaal problem here.
Edit: Yes I know this is the TNS glitch, but I thought you got an end cinema, shoot me. Still ironic it's Henning's though, sigh.
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It's obviously fake. Ban him forever (https://forums.the-elite.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitchtvfaces.com%2Fimages%2FKappa.png&hash=17a49619750c5c77960f8bf53f4329786773816a)
Seriously Jimbo? That's time not saved glitch... do you really not know how it works? When an objective completes on the LAST FRAME of the run, you get no cinema, mission status COMPLETE, the time does not save, but if you press A you will advance to the next level.
Watch my Frigate SA 1:02, Marc's Frigate SA 1:02, Clemens' Facility 00 0:53, Trent's Facility 00 0:55, Alex's Facility 00 0:57 maybe, Henning's "real" Frigate A 0:23, etc etc etc. Boss had this happen to him 100 times on Runway 00 but since he's a badass he kept going until he got time saved.
If you are going to hunt for fake videos, at least have some knowledge of how the game works first.
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Fucking Christ of course I know how it works, but I thought at least you'd get an end cinema from all the Frigate vids I saw. I tried in vein to match up kills on that vid and came within 3 (I counted 36 to his 39) but grenades/mines do more damage than I could hear in the background I guess.
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Frigates with time not saved don't have an ending cinema. (Exception; Henning's fakes.) Nor do Facility runs. Nor do anything. Time not saved = no cinema.
I'll watch the 3:59 closely and tell you if it's fake or not.
Faking a time not saved is actually easy because you don't need to photoshop or gameshark the best time in there. You can leave your old best time and used a failed run. Basically fail a run and simply edit a completion screen where the failed screen usually goes, and claim time not saved.
So it's possible the 3:59 is fake. But it not having an ending cinema + best time not saved does not necessarily mean it is fake. If it's fake, it will be fake for other reasons.
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hmm so making a rule that best time must save for a PR/WR to count would make it harder to fake times, well a little bit.
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the game doesn't count it as the best time, so why would we?
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What if the game didn't have an in game timer? Then the only base we'd have to judge complete runs is whether or not it says Mission Status: Completed. WHICH THESE DO!!!
OMFG FUCKED BY LOGIC WOUTER YOU LOSE.
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The fact is it has a timer and keeps track of the times.
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His 359 is real and he also duped it with the time saved once or twice anyway. Henning and I are good friends and Im pretty confident he would have admitted to me if he had other faked vids. FFS the guy probably feels bad enough now already after having his reputation here nearly destroyed and the fact that every single run he ever makes again will be looked at under a microscope, lets just move on. Or maybe we should agree with the mods on some sort of advanced proof policy to apply for him to ensure his future runs are legit.
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I'm not trying to throw Henning under the bus, I've supported him all along.
As for the proof policy, no one has time right now to really sit and write a 2013 version of it. I'm dedicated, but I couldn't give less of a fuck about updating that until at least springtime. Every case should just be examined one-by-one with a common agreement for now.
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There is absolutely nothing in place at the moment to deter cheaters. Every other sport out there implements bans etc on players who cheat. At present all that happens is that the times that are discovered to be fake are removed. That's hardly going to stop anyone in the future from doing the same thing...
If we set up a punishment system it will decrease the likely-hood of this happening again. You should seriously be considering the impact things like this have on the future.
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Every case should just be examined one-by-one with a common agreement for now.
My following comments are mostly directed at mods (not just Jimbo) with any authority to do anything, if they even exist. Referring to Jim's quote, that's exactly what Tyler seems to say as well. The COMMON agreement HERE is to BAN HIM (see poll). Jim, please don't fall in to the same utter laziness that every other mods (that can enforce something about cheaters) apparently have. ABSOLUTELY ZERO has been done! And you're saying the exact same thing. "I will do nothing. But I agree that something should happen." BIGGEST cop-out for someone who has been trying to move in to a position of authority around here. Dang man, make a decision (as a mod, the LEAST you can do is propose an informed, just and DECISIVE decision) about anyone who fakes a vid/time (and is found out and is a proven fake) and let us all vote on it. Quit doing nothing, it takes so much integrity AWAY from everything.
I'm not trying to throw Henning under the bus, I've supported him all along.
He put himself in this position, please stop "supporting" or "defending" where HE'S put the community at this point and how HE'S slandered over 15 years of beyond insane dedication of so many people! There is no reason to outright be demeaning, rude or say anything wicked to or about Henning, that's childish. However the TRUTH OF THE MATTER calls it like it is and takes care of itself (Truth always has and always will). There's no need to defend Henning, in my opinion over the last week since he was forced to confess, he's done nothing to stand by or defend.
As for the proof policy, no one has time right now to really sit and write a 2013 version of it.
I'm sure at least a few people (Goose, BRIO, myself, Boss, maybe others) would be willing and enthusiastic about drafting an updated BLACK & WHITE proof policy. Black & White on matters of cheating is what I meant. It seems that new ideas are still brought up enough and that some, if not most will be termed cheating after they are shared (Trent's lol-splicing "strat", etc). Also how to word correctly exactly what we DO allow with multiple controllers, 3rd Party, different joystick, etc. That might be difficult, but it does need to get done. I'd be willing to tackle that bit of a proof-policy revision and submit it for review. I've got two weeks off from work and am all hoped up on Percocet since I just got my tonsils removed. So to be clear, I'd be willing to write up a bit on multiple controllers, joysticks and the 3rd party issues. Anybody feel free to post here, FB me, or txt me YOUR thoughts on the controller allowance.
On another note, I also feel that consoles/version of game (PAL, JAP, NTSC), expansion paks, controller TYPES and how many, be more clearly defined on the rankings page. I've always said (talking more to YE here) that an asterik would be plenty, simply so that everybody can see on the ranks the maximum amount of info. For versions, simply adding a JP or JAP to the system options when posting a new time would work. In the same manner (again directed at YE) you could create another mandatory information block when posting a new time for the controller(s) used. I think that, firstly, the moderators would have to agree on which from ALL possible controller settings within the game are allowed (I can't remember if there are bad/dumb ones, but maybe they all are allowed?). Then just implement that info via a selection button like "difficulty" or "system." That seems like the easiest and far less controversial step to me. I understand that we are apart of the WORLD Rankings and that different regions have designed differences. That's just the way that it is and it's completely fine, but that doesn't mean that we can't maximize the information and thoroughness of our (The Elite's) operation for ourselves and for new members to see.
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Shawn, the second I get any authority on the ranks, I will do something about Henning's times. As of right now, I'm just your basic board moderator with some historian tools and nothing else. Axel initially told YE to reject my proposal to be a rankings admin but then changed his mind; subsequently nothing has been done yet and I'm just waiting.
My proposal is that any and all of Henning's future PRs be banned from the ranks. What he has right now, including the backrolled Frigate times, will forever be his submitted set of times and his rank will never increase. It's the equivalent of an excommunication I guess, but it would also be unfair to the elite to remove his (real) times completely, as it would make for an inaccurate rankings set on all sorts of levels. There is absolutely nothing to be gained from total removal versus a frozen set of times indefinitely.
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Don't like your proposal, it basically is the same as a ban (why would he stay if he can't improve on the ranks) without actually removing the times.
Many people don't want him banned but I don't think we've got all his faked times off the ranks either. It's also clear henning is a very good player. I'll have to think of a decent solution but I don't think Jim's (edit--referring to himself here) the answer for things like this either.
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I'm actually working on an updated proof policy right now, and I have that punishment for if someone is caught faking vids a second time. A first offense needs a bit of a lighter punishment. Something like 3 month board ban & timespage freeze might be good.
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Why does the first offense need a lighter punishment? The point of a punishment is to deter people from doing something. Creating a soft punishment for first offense is opening the door for people to try once with low risk.
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I'm going to have to agree with Karl on that one. It is very common in many different policies/rules that the first punishment is rather light but I think the issue is much greater here. We're pretty much all about speedruns and faking one is a very big deal. I would propose making a very strict and harsh first punishment to make sure people don't even try testing the waters of faking.
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Lol yes no doubt about that, HARD punishment the first time. Obv the policy shouldn't affect Henning's situation since the policy will be written after the incident, so he got lucky this time.
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I guess Jimbo becoming a mod is a good idea. It wouldn't hurt having an extra mod (a mod that is also much into the game himself) since I'm basically alone atm (I hope Tyler approves). I originally rejected Jimbo's proposal because it sounded desperate (not as desperate as this silly topic is though). However, we both are against Henning's times being removed from the ranks.
The main question now is more what to do with his future PRs. After having posted Attack Ship 2:13, I have now frozen Henning's account. He can no longer post new times on the ranks. Although with (or without) mod access these days, with YE's ranking it's pretty much impossible not to spot whenever a player post new times. Having Henning's account frozen for a few months and only having his claimed future PRs up by the time he provides a video of it (including PD), but only after the vids have been researched over and over again etc, is probably the best way to go.
Once Jimbo get mod status (I hope) we both will work on a definitive solution for this mess. Just give us some time and this will all work out fine.
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Freezing Henning's account permanently is a terrible idea.
Freezing it for 2 or 3 months as punishment might be ok.
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Don't really wanna add Jimbo as an admin, it isn't necessary.
Henning has been banned, and will stay banned indefinitely. I've been pretty busy, and wasn't aware of the full extent of his dishonesty until now. A permanent ban seems too extreme, as cheaters have pretty much always been apprehended less severely in the past. Speaking to Henning: Just keep playing the game. Please don't do anything else dishonest, and if there's anything more you'd like to admit, please do so immediately. I, for one, very much want to see your times back on the ranks, but I can't do so without high confidence that your cheating days are done, and this is just something that takes time.
Speaking to Goose: Thank you for clarifying the situation. However, your belligerence and blatant flaming of Henning in this topic come off as both hostile and ridiculous, since you yourself have been caught cheating in the past. Please tone it down, and show respect to Henning.
Speaking to Clemens/fanny/Goose: No one is removing or changing their times based on this issue. Thanks to DK for clarification.
Would still love to see the proof policy that silences the inevitable clamoring for a perfect proof policy when things like this come up. A lot of people are talking about writing a new proof policy. Please, do so! As an admin, I feel it's my duty to maintain things, and I don't feel that duty includes synthesizing a bunch of scattered policies into something perfect and ideal (I already wrote a policy on the forums that covered the most pervasive issues at the time, and have edited it several times since).
Speaking to fanny: I'm all for adding JAP; you may want to contact YE about this directly. Adding all control styles would be fine too (none are banned). I would love to see a draft for a proof policy covering the issues you mentioned.
I'll speak with Axel, Ngamer, and anyone else that wants to chime in on what the specific punishment should be (Jimbo and others have made their opinions known), but right now I'm thinking something like a 6-month ban. There COULD be a section of the proof policy that deals out punishments of specific durations based on specific offenses (i.e. fake one time, get banned for three months; fake one time on two separate occasions, get banned for two years). A temporary sentencing of Henning seems appropriate, though.
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You should probably require hands videos for all new times, at least for some time. I would never remove a time that had strong proof behind it.
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About time someone take his responsibilities.
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obv hennings actual legit proven times should be on the rankings
anyone who gets caught cheating should have to have their times (both current times and future submissions) verified and approved by more than one person to avoid any sort of player-admin collusion
honestly a rankings page where any times worth x amount of points needs to be verified and approved through an admin queue is probably the best idea but it hurts those who have been 100% honest which is the majority, so not really necessary
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"I guess playing live infront of a cam is the best way to go for me like you mentioned in some post so I set that I wont play GE until Im able to do this."
This would be ideal.
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Thanks for taking action, Tyler! I also agree that a perma-ban is unnecessary. 3-6 months is sufficient, imo.
I will be working (heavily medicated) on a controller section to go in to the overall proof policy.
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I'm OK with this decision. Banning "indefinitely" is fine, so long as it does eventually end. (Ideally after we come to a conclusion on what's real and what's fake.) Removing someone permanently; especially a top player, who does have many legitimate records, is pretty silly.
So the next line of work is to figure out what's real and what's not.
Thanks for taking action Thiradell. Though I'm not being that belligerent; especially if you compare me to with Goose circa 2007 or Goose circa 2009.
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Yeah still need to clean the mess on which time is fake and which isn't. The hardest part.
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It's just as well Goose did what he did. If he hadn't, Henning's times would probably still be on the ranks.
PS Tyler, your posts are a pain to read. Tone down the college-style English a bit.
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Just to clarify what I said before, I think at the very least the proof policy in its current form needs to be posted somewhere as an official and comprehensive document so all rules (both old and new) are in one place. The reason is that we have a version of the proof policy posted on the GE board, but also a page from 2005 linked on the boards that is completely different. As it is now, it may be unclear (especially to new members) what the entire proof policy entails and what rules are still enforced. This is highlighted by the fact that people in this topic (even if jokingly) suggested taking the ranks hostage when the 2005 proof policy explicitly prevents this. This should have also applied months ago when Taka wanted to take down his times for some silly reason, but nobody even brought up that rule iirc.
I guess the easiest way would be to incorporate all the old rules into the topic posted on the boards and have all links to the proof policy that exist on the site direct to that topic.
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I'm working on it DK. I've sent a rough draft to Cara for editing. If you PM me your email I can send you a copy as well? We need good people working on this.
It can be hosted on Speedrunwiki if Ngamer, Thingy, Clark & them don't care to have it on the elite site proper.
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I can understand why people want all of the legit records to remain on the records. I also understand that people want to live in a perfect world where nothing ever goes wrong, everyone loves each other and everyone is always honest.
At the end of the day this website is a 'world rankings', not a 'list of historical world records', actually there is a seperate page for that. People who cheat should receive a banning from the rankings completely for a time. They should not be ranked above other people who have worked hard and not cheated, at least until their punishment is served.
I'm glad Tyler stepped up and delivered some sweet, sweet justice ;) I want to lick it, and taste it in and around my craving mouth.
<3
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A concern I have is what exactly does it mean to have him banned? Does that mean he isn't allowed to play for records during the time he is banned? In all honesty, I don't think a temporary ban will actually accomplish anything. I mean if it just prevents him from updating his time page for the duration of the ban then it doesn't really seem like a big deal since he could just hold on to any times until he is allowed back. On the other hand if you don't allow him to get records during his ban then you could be disallowing times achieved with legitimate proof. The situation is still a little more complex than should we ban him and for how long.
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People want Henning's "actually, honestly, for-real-this-time-guys legit" times to remain on the ranks, yet all his fake times taken down. This is basically akin to wanting to live in a dream world (as Karl said). In reality, cheaters are why we can't have nice things.
The Elite needs to ask itself; what punishment should there be for cheating? If the answer is one of:
- take down just the times that have been proven/admitted fake, but leave the "real" times up
- have a short, non-permanent ban where all his times are removed from the ranks, but then are put back up later
- a sharp parental scolding, followed by a plea of "please don't do it again"
then you might as well say the punishment is nothing. None of these will discourage people from cheating, because they're on a freeroll; if their time isn't discovered, then great, they've accomplished what they wanted. If it's discovered, oh well, it gets taken down eventually, but none of my other times are really affected. And a short ban won't prevent me from playing and hoarding times (how can you possibly hope to enforce them not playing during their ban?), so all it will do is delay when I can post my times. And what assurance is there that these new times would be legit?
I'm surprised that more people involved heavily with the GE ranks aren't incensed that one of their top players was lying about several of his times. To me this shows a blatant lack of respect and trust for both the Elite and personal friendships they've cultivated. People have lied in the past and have gotten off mostly scot-free, but GE is a mature game now... the ranks have been up for over 10 years, strategies are mostly solidified, etc. Lying (and going to the trouble of faking proof!) should be taken as an EXTRA serious offense at this point in GE's life.
I'm not in control and I don't care about the GE ranks (I care even less after skimming this topic and finding that another top player even KNEW about this for years, so they were basically colluding the whole time), but if you want your ranks to have any shred of credibility with the speedrunning community at large, you must deal with cheaters in a strong-handed, no-tolerance manner. I'm glad some top players are standing up to the dishonesty, and I feel more should do so... what's the point of leaderboards if they're full of cheaters? And whether or not Henning is your friend, or a good player, or has some actually honest times is totally irrelevant.
but it would also be unfair to the elite to remove his (real) times completely, as it would make for an inaccurate rankings set on all sorts of levels.
Totally disagree. The rankings should be considered "a list of all the times submitted by people who have never cheated". As soon as you cheat, you forfeit the privilege of having your time on the rankings. It's a privilege, not a right, to be ranked on the page. If you change my definition above to be "a list of all the times submitted by 95% honest people, but a few cheaters that we found out and we're pretty sure most of their times still up are real", then your ranking system has no relevance or meaning IMO.
I'm still surprised to see some people defending Henning in this topic. Stuff like "I'm sure he feels bad enough getting caught, let's leave it at that". I mean... lol. You lie or cheat, you're done. The answer? Don't lie or cheat.
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I follow infil and Karl, however
Since there was no punishment in place at the time Henning cheated, it is unfair to give him that punishment. Back in the old west people murdered each other daily because there was no real punishment. It would be unfair to take a murderer back then and one day be like "ok we've decided last night the punishment is 25 years in jail so here ya go." Laws are basically a list of punishments for prohibited activites. Without that list, it's unfair to punish people for their wrongdoings.
So basically we need to decide on an appropriate punishment for all fakers and start enforcing it at a future date. Everyone who faked before that time is grandfathered.
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ALSO there is another slight problem
I want to watch all of Henning's 60 PRs for inconsistencies, since the point of banning him as far as I can tell is to make sure the times he claims are real, are indeed real.
However, since he was banned, I no longer have easy access to all of his 60 PRs.
Can someone (Thiradell?) help me with this?
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Back in the old west people murdered each other daily because there was no real punishment. It would be unfair to take a murderer back then and one day be like "ok we've decided last night the punishment is 25 years in jail so here ya go."
Terrible analogy. Not only was the "bloody West" not all that bloody (when most everyone is armed most everyone respects each other), but yes, it would have been appropriate to punish the murderer. By hanging more than likely.
If you want a better analogy, try say, enforcing today's emissions laws on someone from back then. Nevertheless, I agree and that's what I said earlier: I think permanent banning is the correct solution but can't be conscientiously done here because past precedent has been lenient.
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can't be conscientiously done here because past precedent has been lenient.
Exactly
So we need to set a new precedent as soon as possible, and as soon as it is set, enforce it with zero tolerance.
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I no longer have easy access to all of his 60 PRs.
As if you didn't already know where to watch them.
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Your Youtube channel?
I also don't know what all of his PRs are. A link to his timespage would be good. Like if I stumble across a Jungle SA 0:56 by Henning I wouldn't know if that's his PR or if he has better.
I've sent a message to Thiradell asking for help with this. On the rankings, everything is just sorted out so easily. And sometimes I can watch Henning's 3 or 4 best runs on a level. Now I just have to look around Youtube and guess what his PRs were and I probably won't watch his 2nd or 3rd best times.
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Honestly Goose, stop this trolling.
They can easily be located by searching on youtube "Henning Blom + name of level". You'll find virtually every PR on there.
If not, try http://thengamer.com/HenningBlom/GoldenEye007/ (http://thengamer.com/HenningBlom/GoldenEye007/)
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I still don't know if Dam 00 1:58 is his PR or not (for instance.)
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Henning's PRs/best proven times are
53/117/158
45/54/54
22/23/38
102/149/149
17/23/108
103/112/126
23/105/111
48/49/127
24/47/59
219/219/219
16/54/54
113/155/155
25/40/47
102/127/156
51/56/56
359/409/411
102/120/133
34/36/36
132/141/147
46/46/46
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k, alec brought it up in chat, after looking at the 47 vid, I wouldn't blame alec if he never sent henning the 5. That backing out and going back in to see the time is pretty ridic. It could be an accident/coincidence but I don't think that should count as proof under an updated policy.
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We've gone over it. It was streamed live. Wouter, myself, others were watching. He was playing a session. Best time said 0:48. He got that run, best time said 0:47. Yes, it is fakeable. But it seems like he just pressed B at the endscreen. Shit happens. He wasn't happy with it. It kind of ruins the untied.
Alecboy + irrel non gamers need to stay out of this discussion.
Thanks for the list Axel. I'll get through some of it tonight.
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Does that mean he isn't allowed to play for records during the time he is banned?
LOL @ even considering this. The admins here are random guys from a random US site and not a dictatorial swedish regime accompanied by Nintendo lawyers.
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This is exactly why a lifetime ban is the only solution in the future. Even if you get banned for 10 years, you can still PR/WR and make videos as crazy as you want, the times are going up eventually.
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OK I will be watching Henning's videos tonight. I'll be posting anything I find suspicious in this thread for maximum transparency. Hopefully I don't find anything else and he can be reinstated as soon as possible.
Henning's PRs/best proven times are
53/117/158
45/54/54
22/23/38
102/149/149
17/23/108
103/112/126
23/105/111
48/49/127
24/47/59
219/219/219
16/54/54
113/155/155
25/40/47
102/127/156
51/56/56
359/409/411
102/120/133
34/36/36
132/141/147
46/46/46
Dam 53 - fine
Dam 117 - I hate the endscreen. Static, no cursor move. Everything else seems fine
Dam 158 - fine
Fac 45 - fine
Fac SA 54 - fine
Fac 00 54 - fine
Run 22 - fine
Run 23 - fine
Run 38 - fine
S1 102 - good
s1 SA 149 - good
s1 00 149 - good
b1 17 - good
b1 23 - good
b1 108 - great, nice nadeless run
silo 103 good
silo 112 good
silo 126 legit
frigate 23 - ok time not saved, we believe this is legit
frig 105 - lol @ run but looks legit
frig 111 - looks fine
s2 a 48 - good, proper lag from explosion, good
s2 sa 49 - seems really fine, explosions very audible which is excellent, but I don't understand how he warped from pp7 to grenade. He missed klobb, so pressing A would get the grenade, but that's a very rare warp to hit.
s2 00 127 - legit
b2 24 - good
b2 47 - good
b2 59 - good
statue 219s - all good
arc 16 - at a meet? someone playing s2 in the background. Weird that there's no happy reaction to this if it were played live at a meet.
arc sa 54 - good
arc 00 54 - good
streets 113 - good
streets sa 155 - can't find
streets 00 155 - can't find
depot 25 - good
dep 40 - good
dep 47 - good, we've been over this in the WR discussion thread
train 102 - good
127 - lol @ in game sound OFF but music ON, looks fine though
156 - good
jungle 51 - good
sa 56 - good
00 56 - good, nice run
control 359 - tns but I looked hard and the transitions on the endscreens seem consistent. Henning was insanely lucky on this run. Getting shot in the lift resulted in the few extra frames; in the last of which Nat would have escaped lol. Ridic.
control sa 409 - can't find vid
control 00 411 - okay I'm really weary of this one. There is a gameshark code that allows you to set 007 settings on other difficulties. This run seriously looks like Henning moved down the accuracy a bit. This is what Jimbo did with the "Silo 00 1:34 no hit wonder" video remember. Even without Gameshark you can still play 007 settings with lower accuracy, reaction speed, etc, and then just splice on a fake 00A endscreen.
Here is the video;
Henning Blom - Control 00 Agent 4:11 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUMOoCRj2JU#)
There are 3 points where on a 00A run, Henning almost *has* to get hit. Those being, when he picks up the mines (you see shots going right beside him, which just doesn't happen on 00A,) when he is doing the 2nd door warp on his way back to Nat (the guards almost always hit you here unless they're doing something weird; however they were aiming right at Henning here...) and the very last guard Henning kills just as Nat is completing objective B (he is a black hat guard and when they have a clear shot at you like he did, they hit you 100%.)
Other top Control players should watch the run and see if they agree that things seem a bit weird here.
Unfortunately this is virtually impossible to prove or disprove, so unless Henning admits this is fake we probably will never have an answer.
cavs 102 - seems fine
cavs 120 - fine
cavs 133 - legit, examined this one very closely
cradle 34 - legit, I've watched this 100 times lol
crad sa 36 - legit
crad 00 36 - legit
az 132 - fine
az 141 - fine
az 147 - fine
egypt a 46 - ok
sa 46 - ok
00 46 - ok
This is getting very onerous
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Does that mean he isn't allowed to play for records during the time he is banned?
LOL @ even considering this. The admins here are random guys from a random US site and not a dictatorial swedish regime accompanied by Nintendo lawyers.
That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. A temporary ban won't accomplish anything since he can still play for records. That being said, there really isn't much of a point in having him banned at all unless it was for life. His timepage should be frozen, however, until the situation gets sorted out.
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So a few guys in USA tell a guy in Sweden "you're not allowed to play for the next 6 months."
Sounds effective.
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frig 105 - cant find vid
frig 111 - cant find vid
arc 16 - at a meet? someone playing s2 in the background. Weird that there's no happy reaction to this if it were played live at a meet.
Frigate SA 105: http://thengamer.com/HenningBlom/GoldenEye007/07-Frigate/Henning%20Blom%20-%20Frigate%20Secret%20Agent%201.05%20(music).wmv (http://thengamer.com/HenningBlom/GoldenEye007/07-Frigate/Henning%20Blom%20-%20Frigate%20Secret%20Agent%201.05%20(music).wmv)
Frigate 00A 111 Henning Blom - Frigate 00 Agent 1:11 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DW259IzIcc#)
as for Arch 16, no it was not achieved during a meeting. If I recorded my PRs/WRs LIVE with a digcam I would probably not have yelled YES or so either. But I probably would've done so afterwards after I had stopped the recording.
PRs by Henning that do were achieved during meets are Runway 38, B2 24, Cradle 34 and Cav 00A 133.
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Alecboy + irrel non gamers need to stay out of this discussion.
Funny how you create public polls and then in the same topic attempt to exclude people from the discussion. You're being an idiot.
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ATTN: AxZ
I can't find Henning's Streets 155s? They're not on his Youtube channel. Do you have them anywhere?
Same goes for Control SA 4:09.
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cradle 34 - legit, I've watched this 100 times lol
:nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik:
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cradle 34 - legit, I've watched this 100 times lol
:nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik:
:nesquik: ?
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Yeah that Control 00A 411 is sketchy with the guards missing, especially at the door before glass.
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Okay so I've seen 57/60 Henning PRs. I'm missing Streets 155s and Control SA 409. The Control 00 411 looks sketchy and I'd like if other good control players watched that video.
As soon as we're done here we can figure out punishments and whatnot and get Henning reinstated.
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Control 409 : Henning Blom - Control Secret Agent 4:09 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJMPH4FyJwY#)
00A 1:55 Henning Blom - Streets 00 Agent 1:55 (World Record) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7816mcdDCE#)
SA 1:55 Henning Blom - Streets Secret Agent 1:55 (World Record) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMMiUw9Aem4#)
The 4:11 is real! Probably all I can say.
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When looking at it myself its pretty obvious why the guard misses me at the door. He doesnt even do one of these "aims straight at you, instant shoot" animitons so his aim is slightly off when I run past him like that. If I went straight for the warp like most times he would prolly have hit still but I went more to the right on the door on this run and then to the left for the warp. Also it sounds to me he doesnt shoot more than like 3 bullets, then you hear some other of the guards shooting at me but misses because of the wall. The first place, that kind of "missing" happens quite a lot at that place, like its not that rare if I remember correctly and black hat shot like 1 bullet lol.
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Control SA 409 - everything checks out, musical cues, nat's escape, etc. Looks good
Streets SA 155 - I hate how there is no sound but the timer makes this extremely difficult to fake and I don't see any signs of trickery.
Streets 00 155 - looks fine
So yeah I've watched 60/60 Henning PRs and the only one that's giving me trouble is the Control 411. I have been playing Control 00 and the missed hits definitely are possible. I think the run is legit but I don't regret finding it sketchy at all.
OK