The Elite Forum
The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: Wyst3r on December 17, 2012, 05:53:50 pm
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Ever wanted to just skip the protection part on Control? Get B completed straight away? Well unfortunately you can't do that. But what if you could get B completed without the alarm going off? No random guards, no protection to do, just wait there for 2 minutes and 15 seconds. Though not a timesaver it's still a pretty nice thought and would certainly make the level alot more pleasant (especially DLTK).
Basicly what i've found is a way to delay the alarm going off indefinately, but without interrupting Natalya's work. It's painfully obvious and i'm kind of suprised that it hasn't been done before. (maybe it has but probably not to this extent?)
As you might know, all of Natalya's messages are based on a timer. And most of her messages come up exactly when they are supposed to (usually). However, some messages are also based on her animations. She can't display those messages while an animation is playing. This is of course why we shoot her in the arm during the first encounter with Natalya, to ensure that her animation ends at the earliest possible moment that her message can be displayed.
Now here's the interresting part: The message that comes up just as alarm goes off is animation dependent, but the other ones (obj B completed for instance) are only timer based. So by making sure that Natalya is never allowed to end her current animation, the alarm won't ever go off, but her other messages will continue to pop up and obj B will eventually complete.
The trick is to shoot Natalya before she has a chance to say her alarm-triggering message and then just keep shooting her for 2 minutes. I think the leg has the slowest damage animation so that's probably the best way to do this. The problem of course is Natalya's health. Eventually she'll die. This is true for all the regular modes but fortunately not for DLTK since she has tons of health there. So basicly you can (almost) completely skip the random guards on DLTK now.
On SA/00A Natalya can survive around 9-10 limb shots i think which equals to around 42 seconds of delay. So if you wish, you can use this and have only a minute and 20 secs protection time. This might not be that useful though, since Natalya will die from a single bullet. You could also try and shoot her magnum, since that does no damage to her. Problem is that it's a really fast damage animation and you won't be able to hit it repeatedly unless you have TAS skills :p
But yeah, as i mentioned, this should at least be super useful for DLTK.
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Again, pretty cool stuff Henrik. I didn't know that skipped the timer. I tested out backing her up with 1000% health. If you back her up really far, like to the glass, then it seems like a) she can get 16 second exits since she's closer to the stairs and b) sometimes runs up the LEFT stairs (which would ruin your run since she takes like 40 sec to exit that way.)
- when does the "timer" for objective B start?
- is there a way to end whatever animation to get the most consistent Nat LEAVE? ie: shooting her during the 3 speech dialogues as B is completing to get her to leave as fast as possible, as frequently as possible?
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sometimes runs up the LEFT stairs
She runs to the stairs closest to her, and the leg animations tend to move her slightly to the left, no matter which leg you shoot. (this is why i always stay in her way in my 00A TAS).
when does the "timer" for objective B start?
As soon as she gets to the computer. It counts to 8100 frames before obj B completes. (2 min 15 seconds)
is there a way to end whatever animation to get the most consistent Nat LEAVE? ie: shooting her during the 3 speech dialogues as B is completing to get her to leave as fast as possible, as frequently as possible?
Her leaving is not animation based (unless it's a damage animation of course), she leaves as soon as the timer hits a certain value (which can't remember). So there's no way to speed that up.
I didn't know that skipped the timer
It doesn't. It only skips the alarm-triggering message. Timer still runs in the background (this is the fact that i'm using with this strat).
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Sorry, in that last quote I meant alarm obv :p
The 3rd point was my next question I guess. What determines her LEAVING. Because Objective B comes up, then she screws around a bit more and then leaves. But you've already answered it. After the 8100th frame she waits an additional 400 frames or something and then leaves. Irrelevant on her animation (unless you shoot her in the leg on one of the last frames of that count, which will slow her down.)
Got it.
Do you honestly believe any of this level is skippable?
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Do you honestly believe any of this level is skippable?
Nope. But i'd be happy to be proven wrong.
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Have you tried warping any of the locked doors? That was my next project. If they are that well programmed maybe warping through them is our only hope :(
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Nice find Henrik, definitely has good DLTK applications. I put many hours into Control a couple years ago, so I'm surprised I never ran into this. Pretty ironic how this level has been taken to the point that rather than defending Natalya while she completes objective B, we're shooting her. :smokin:
The strategy reminds me of a painfully long video that Trent posted a while back - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF4xvSjUb5c. He started shooting her too early to run into the exact behavior that you did, but similar idea.
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if that's consistent on DLTK, I'll get sub 10 for sure :)
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Yeah that strat should make Control DLTK a lol level. (but only if you had a ton of ammo since her stuns will be super fast..)
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A little surprised this hasn't been used before. It might be a little helpful on 00A if you use glass strat because you could save yourself 50s of torture from protect + black hat guards. WR is still very good though and there's still the issue of lack of mines for glass. There should be enough mines if you can manage to take out the 2nd last MF by using the D5k and blowing up the surrounding computers though.. but if that works you might mess up Nat's escape.
Nice find.
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(but only if you had a ton of ammo since her stuns will be super fast..)
Argh, i just realized i had reaction speed set to 0% while testing this. Had no idea her this affected her damage animations so much. I guess this won't be as useful as i thought...
Edit: Tested it at indeed Natalya's damage animations are way too fast now. You need to spam her constantly with bullets and as soon as you need to reload she'll recover. So despite that she can survive 100 limb shots without BA you can get max 30 bullets in her. And that probably not even 30 seconds....
WR is still very good though and there's still the issue of lack of mines for glass. There should be enough mines if you can manage to take out the 2nd last MF by using the D5k and blowing up the surrounding computers though.. but if that works you might mess up Nat's escape.
I posted a new 00A strat a long time ago which would solve this but i don't think anyone has bothered testing it yet. Instead of using the SA strat with 2 mines, you'd throw 1 mine and instead use the long glass right next to it. That way you can throw the mine further away from Bond and avoid most of the damage. If done well, it would be slightly slower than the 2 mine strat but could still save 2 secs on 00A.
Also for 2nd last MF it'd probably be easier to learn the mine-through-wall throw to save 1 mine from not having to destroy the drones. You just need to know the angle and proper timing.
Edit: I made a short video of this throw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRsIzqa9i9w&feature=youtu.be
It's ridiculously easy to pull off, even when playing with keyboard on emulator in real-time. Just make sure not to aim too low or too far to the left.
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Tested it at indeed Natalya's damage animations are way too fast now.
Can't the slow leg animation be used?
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Wow, nice mine throw. If it's very consistent then using normal SA glass shouldn't be too much of an issue. You'll have enough mines but they have to be thrown in such a position to minimize health loss and destroy the MF besides the glass. But there's also the problem of having to use some other route at the ending to get Nat to escape in 17-18s since you can't enter the drone room. Going through the other glass is a nice idea too but I don't know if it'll help much.
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Can't the slow leg animation be used?
The problem is that Reaction Speed 100% makes ALL animations really really fast. Even the ones that are usually very slow.
If it's very consistent
It is. I could do it maybe 80% of the time with keyboard. So you should be able to get consistency up to 90-100% on console. The only problem might be guards shooting you in the back?
Going through the other glass is a nice idea too but I don't know if it'll help much.
I think the main advantage would be that you can avoid damage pretty much completely using this method. However, i did forget that you still need that 2nd mine to destroy the MF so i guess mine-wise it doesn't make a diffrence. In the end i guess it all comes down to consistency, which strat makes it easier to complete the level.
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I posted a new 00A strat a long time ago which would solve this but i don't think anyone has bothered testing it yet. Instead of using the SA strat with 2 mines, you'd throw 1 mine and instead use the long glass right next to it. That way you can throw the mine further away from Bond and avoid most of the damage. If done well, it would be slightly slower than the 2 mine strat but could still save 2 secs on 00A.
I have legitimately been talking about this for years
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Made a video of the alarm skip, the way i had hoped it would work on DLTK:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIbMk2i8Vqk&feature=youtu.be
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Lol that was intense shit. Any particular reason you waited until you did to start shooting her? ie: when is the earliest you can start shooting her to avoid the alarm going off? As soon as her first speech comes up?
I kinda want to know all the "set" moments in the level. Like all of Nat's actions at computers, how long they take to complete, and when you know they have started (ie: shooting her in those moments won't speed up or slow anything down.)
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I think you should be able to start shooting as soon as she gets to the computer, since that's when the timer starts. The messages like obj B complete are entirely based on the timer so it should complete when timer reaches 8100. The reason i waited was simply because it was unnecessary to start shooting any earlier :p
When it comes to "set" actions, first and second encounter work thesame way. A timer starts as soon as she reaches the computer. Then her actions are either timer dependent or dependent on both timer and animation. The only actions that matter for a speedrun are Natalya opening 1st brown door, Obj B completing and Natalya leaving. (well actually obj B doesn't really matter since you still need to wait for her leaving). The opening of the 1st brown door is animation dependent, therefor shooting Nat can speed it up. But the other 2 are only timer dependent so there's nothing you can do there.
And that's it really...
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Makes sense and solidifies some things we've always known. The first animation is both like you said... I guess it's "the first animation after a set amount of frames from when she gets to the computer." Which is why shooting ends that animation directly after that set amount of frames.
From what I've seen, if you get the 3 quick animations, the brown door opening is just as fast as shooting her. Am I way off here? Obviously it's dumb not to shoot her since you risk the 3rd animation being the long one, but if she gets 3 quick ones you don't need to shoot her at all.
Also, how much do we really know about being far away from Nat during the objective B work? What happens here? That 8100 frame timer... does it stop completely when you leave a certain area? And it only starts again when you get back into the proper range?
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Makes sense and solidifies some things we've always known. The first animation is both like you said... I guess it's "the first animation after a set amount of frames from when she gets to the computer." Which is why shooting ends that animation directly after that set amount of frames.
From what I've seen, if you get the 3 quick animations, the brown door opening is just as fast as shooting her. Am I way off here? Obviously it's dumb not to shoot her since you risk the 3rd animation being the long one, but if she gets 3 quick ones you don't need to shoot her at all.
Also, how much do we really know about being far away from Nat during the objective B work? What happens here? That 8100 frame timer... does it stop completely when you leave a certain area? And it only starts again when you get back into the proper range?
Everything you said here is correct ^^ Shooting Natalya only ensures fastest brown door opening, but it's possible to get fastest without it (at least i think it's the fastest, haven't actually tested it). And the timer does indeed stop as soon as you leave the protection area only to be resumed when you re-enter it.
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I tested out backing her up with 1000% health. If you back her up really far, like to the glass, then it seems like a) she can get 16 second exits since she's closer to the stairs and b) sometimes runs up the LEFT stairs (which would ruin your run since she takes like 40 sec to exit that way.)
While messing around with other stuff today i figured out how to get Natalya even closer to the stairs and completely avoid the chance of her running up the left stairs. This is kind of obvious, but the reason she always moves to the left instead of right when being shot in the leg is that little turn she makes during the last step when approaching the computer. If you interrupt this turn by shooting her just as she begins this step, then Natalya will be facing slighly to the left instead of right, and shooting her in the leg will move her slighly to the right as well as backwards, giving her a good position for leaving.
There are several problems with this though, one being that as soon as the she begins taking the step, her timer also starts. So you definately don't want to shoot too early as that will delay the timer. But you don't want to shoot too late either, since the earlier you shoot, the better angle she'll have. So you need to shoot just after her step animations starts, which requires pretty good timing.
Also of course this is usually a time when you are off destroying drones/throwing mine. I'm not sure how quickly you can realisticly do the mine throw, but since that doesn't require you to bring out the D5k and shoot the far drone, you might be able to make it back in time to shoot her leg. (Rayan?)
Edit: Hmm tested it briefly and you'd need to be insanely fast with the mine throw for this to work...
Edit2: Found a way that it can be done, not sure if it's too complicated for actual use though:
1. After getting Natalya, do the normal stuff (blow glass, blow screen).
2. Open the door to far MF, go back to Natalya.
3. Interrupt her step with a shot in the back (Damage animation has to be a fast, or else you won't have enough time for mine throw)
4. Do the far mine throw, and while looking down, strafe back into protection zone. You should have a descent amount of time to get the throw done, so it doesn't need to be insane but don't waste too much time.
5. Destroy the desk behind Nat.
6. Do the alarm-skip strat like usual.
After this you could just wait the normal amount of time before starting alarm-skipping, which would now also bring Natalya close to the stairs. (might wanna destroy the desk just behind Natalya during this wait so she doesn't get stuck, OR keep it and use it to force Natalya more to the right, not sure what's optimal)
The last problems which Goose might already have some solutions for are how to deal with the brown door that you need to open for her and how to get Natalya to escape quickly. At least on emulator, you can't go up the stairs without Natalya returning to her original position (even when looking at her). So you'd have to wait in the stairs for her to start running before heading up and opening the door for her. Question then is, will you be able to make it to the end in 16 secs? With the far mainframe already destroyed, it might work out. But not sure if Nat will have fast endings if you leave this late and go straight for the last mainframe?
Another option is to destroy the last mainframe during protect with another mine-through-wall throw and run straight to end after opening brown door via body armor route...
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I don't see why you need to do the alarm skip to get her to back up closer to the stairs? It seems like it'd be a lot easier to just say screw it to the alarm skip and back her up since that actually saves time.
But maybe a video would help? I'm not sure I fully understand everything you're describing.
Also, you can do all the mfs before or during the protect, so you can just open the door and run immediately to the end through the locker room which should be able to give like 5 second exits if necessary lol.
Another question while you're in here Henrik... how much time exactly does a pause lose when at normal plane compared to lookdown perfect angle? I want to know for Bunker 2. How much time a 1.1 pause loses compared to 1.2. Having an exact time would be helpful.
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I don't see why you need to do the alarm skip to get her to back up closer to the stairs? It seems like it'd be a lot easier to just say screw it to the alarm skip and back her up since that actually saves time.
Well since alarm-skip and backing up Natalya are performed in the exact same way, it just seemed very convenient to combine those 2 strats :) Especially since there's no drawback to it.
But maybe a video would help? I'm not sure I fully understand everything you're describing.
Yeah it's difficult to describe strats well in text. Takes a long time for me to make vids though so i'm usually a bit reluctant to make those. I'll see if i can get a vid up tommorrow.
Also, you can do all the mfs before or during the protect, so you can just open the door and run immediately to the end through the locker room which should be able to give like 5 second exits if necessary lol.
Yeah i know, that's the option i mentioned in the last sentence of my previous post. Any idea if Natalya can get fast escapes this way though?
Another question while you're in here Henrik... how much time exactly does a pause lose when at normal plane compared to lookdown perfect angle? I want to know for Bunker 2. How much time a 1.1 pause loses compared to 1.2. Having an exact time would be helpful.
I'll check when i have some time to spare.
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Well since alarm-skip and backing up Natalya are performed in the exact same way, it just seemed very convenient to combine those 2 strats :) Especially since there's no drawback to it.
For sure. It's just that you seemed to be making a big deal about not getting back in time, when you can get back in time easily if all you want to do is back up Nat (which is the time saver :p) And honestly I'm sure there's more than enough time to even run right in there through the drones and get back, on agent at least.
Yeah it's difficult to describe strats well in text. Takes a long time for me to make vids though so i'm usually a bit reluctant to make those. I'll see if i can get a vid up tommorrow.
It's all good. It would definitely be useful since it seems like we are finally making some progress with Control, but no rush.
Yeah i know, that's the option i mentioned in the last sentence of my previous post. Any idea if Natalya can get fast escapes this way though?
I don't see why not. Left strafe, look in the opposite direction. You'll get to the lift pretty quick so just look away. We'll work it out.
I'll check when i have some time to spare.
Cool. It would be really useful information for many levels really. To know how much time we're losing when we do a standard plane pause or lookup pause compared to a perfect angle pause.
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For sure. It's just that you seemed to be making a big deal about not getting back in time, when you can get back in time easily if all you want to do is back up Nat (which is the time saver :p) And honestly I'm sure there's more than enough time to even run right in there through the drones and get back, on agent at least.
Backing her up isn't the thing you need to get back to. The problem with not getting back in time comes from the fact that you need to shoot her once as the approaches computer (if you want her to face to the left). And that happens only a few seconds after destroying screen and looking towards her. So you definately won't have enough time to go do the far MF. (unless you do it my way, in which you shoot her and THEN do the MF)
Edit: Here's the vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQjHgxkNvG4&feature=youtu.be
Edit2:
Another question while you're in here Henrik... how much time exactly does a pause lose when at normal plane compared to lookdown perfect angle? I want to know for Bunker 2. How much time a 1.1 pause loses compared to 1.2. Having an exact time would be helpful.
Suprisingly, while testing this i measured the exact same pause time (3.58 seconds for full pause, in and out) when starting at -40 degrees (the pause angle) and -4 degrees (the starting angle). This is really wierd and i'm certain that i've measured diffrences before. So i'm not quite sure what's going on here...
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Holy shit intense video. That definitely does seem doable on console.
I guess that body shot interrupting her step doesn't save any time, otherwise you would have said so :p
So the problem is now that in order for backing up Natalya to have any effect, we need to prevent her from warping back to the desk. To prevent her from warping, we need to stay close to her and be looking at her during the protect. This means we have to stay close and watch her until she starts moving (at which point in Marc's ending strat, we would traditionally do the other 2 mfs and finish the level around conveniently exactly 17-18 seconds.) Since we have to wait to open the big brown door, costing 3-5 seconds on that leave, and since Natalya could plausibly escape in 15-16 seconds with this strat, this no longer works.
So we need to;
a) find out an ideal speed for Natalya to escape when backed up, which gives realistic or decent chances at completion
b) create a strategy and ending route that blows all the mfs and allows us to escape in that amount of time
The first part is obviously the most important. Even if it makes 16 second ends more realistic, that's good. I don't see it being much lower than 15. But testing would be good.
I think that watching her leave, opening the door, going Brandon Sanford route, doing the last mf and ending, might actually be quick enough to work. I'm guessing that watching Nat start to move + opening the brown door is about equal time to doing the drone room mf the way we currently do it.
Of course this requires the mine throw to be done exactly as Henrik does it in that video.
I'm also unsure that my strat for the final mf (the one in the glass, you know it) during the protect, will work, since I have a hard time seeing Nat NOT warping while doing this. That will have to be tested of course.
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I guess that body shot interrupting her step doesn't save any time, otherwise you would have said so :p
Yup. It only saves time indirectly by giving Natalya a better position for leaving.
So the problem is now that in order for backing up Natalya to have any effect, we need to prevent her from warping back to the desk. To prevent her from warping, we need to stay close to her and be looking at her during the protect.
Is there some version difference here or something? On emulator with NTSC version, Natalya only warps if you leave her line of sight. So looking away or going far away from her is okay as long as she can see you.
I'm also unsure that my strat for the final mf (the one in the glass, you know it) during the protect, will work, since I have a hard time seeing Nat NOT warping while doing this. That will have to be tested of course.
What is your strat?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KgqjlRCbkc
Like 0:55-1:15 of that video. So if you are doing the mine throw drone room (which I failed there) + that strat for the final mf, then you can get all the mfs during the protect, and after Nat starts running, you can exit the level as fast as fucking possible.
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that video has the worst interlacing i've ever seen in my LIFE
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inb4untiedWR video like this :nesquik:
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inb4untiedWR video like this and then Goose has a fit :nesquik:
FTFY :nesquik:
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That's what happens when you rip the .VOB directly into your video editor and just crop and export into an .mp4 lololol. It's what I do when I'm making a vid that doesn't really matter (my Frigate 00 1:12 is the same.)
Really when I'm making videos for this I should just directly input it through my capture card, which would be 100x less work and would produce Ace's legendary rusty ship audio. #oops
edit - TO WOUTER, the .VOB is always the length of the session, usually 20-45 minutes long and around 1GB. I prefer cropping it first through a video editor (I usually use Handbrake to convert the entire thing to m4v, and then a video editor to crop, brigten, etc. That's why my videos usually look so good.) But if you like uploading 1GB of .VOB to Youtube only to crop it down to a 1 minute clip using Youtube's editor, then that's your prerogative.
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I just simply upload the original .vob to youtube.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KgqjlRCbkc
Nice strat, i've seen it before but couldn't remember it :p
I made a vid of an alternative way to do it, with another mine-through-wall throw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP_84dNIDDs&list=UU2SDHtOT4fxJAToLBRBOjtw&index=1
It's really easy to pull off. But your strat would be like 100% consistent so this would only be useful if we don't have an extra mine to spare.