The Elite Forum
The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: Henning Blom on January 23, 2013, 02:08:49 pm
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Alright, I got the SuperPad I ordered last week.
So far I'm the most succesful 2.4 player as far as official Nintendo 64 controllers goes so I figured I should try out the Super Pad to see if there are any notable differences. And yeah there are mainly 2 big differences if comparing to a real controller.
1. Strafe Changes: Strafe changes is a fucking joke with this thing. The stick is not as sensitive as the official controller stick. Its not good for looking around in the leves (you do that with the other controller anyway) but since its not sensitive, any horicental and diagonal moves are super easy to make, so its like built for strafe changing in 2.4 with which also links to the next big advantage below.
2. Holding speed is much easier: The right/left corners in the stick holder are much sharper compared to a n64 controller. Basically this means that you fucking LOCK the stick into place. For a real controller you simply dont lock the stick like that becuase the corners arent anywhere near as sharp as a Super Pad's, the stick is much more sensitive (like noted before) which make you slip off more to the sides making you lose fullspeed MUCH easier with real controllers. This is bad because you don't even need to think at all when switching strafes because of this advantage. You CAN'T lose speed with superpad if you dont do it on purpose really.
Also one more thing I like to add is that the stick is much longer than a official controllers stick which means that you get more speed on the side to side move when switching strafe, especially when you dont even need a monekey's brain to be succesfull switching strafes, it saves time for every strafe change you make. It doesnt make a big difference but it saves time for sure, I couldnt do strafe changes that quickly with the real controllers without missing the corners and slipping to the sides ever really but with Super Pad I could do super insane right away.
Conclusion: Super Pad should be named Super Gay, is a lot easier to play 2.4 with, its too easy imo. You don't have to go through the learning process for 2.4 (which is the hardest part about 2.4 ) with this thing pretty much at all. I am at least at the same level in a few minutes as I was when I was best with the official controllers, if not better. I can't play that well with real controllers anymore but I could right away with Super Pad so this is seriosly a big joke. Anyone saying reaching buttons on Super Pad (I've heard this argument before) is wrong, its no harder than a official controller so it has no disadvantage anywhere.
Im against the use of this controller because of these differences and the fact that it is a 3rd party made controller, having nothing to do with Nintendo other than trying to gain money from Nintendo's name. If the difference wasnt so noteable I wouldnt mind that much but Super Pad makes 2.4 a walk in the park.
I am serious; you can play about every level with Super Pad, thats how easy it is and I am 100% sure I would have got both 40 and 47 a lot quicker if I used Super Pad when I started playing 2.4.
On a troll sidenote; Super Pad were made Performance, the same company that made Gameshark! :kappa:
So what should the-elite do about this issue (before it gets too far)? Like I wrote, Im against the use of it.
Discussion!
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lol if a decision is made to ban it at this point. I (and some others) constantly told the proof mods a year ago to ban it since it isn't official Nintendo hardware but they just went ahead and allowed it anyway.
Anyway I think you are slightly exaggerating about it. I'll make a detailed post later since I'm posting from my phone right now.
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Most of that advantage only exists because used N64 sticks fucking suck. SuperPad does only what the original controller is supposed to do but fails at. I don't see enough cause to ban them and piss off players whose increasing controller problems would be solved with a third party stick only because they provide <1s advantage on lame levels like depot. A ban would also have to result in a removal of 60 Ryan Koch and the majority of Fanny PRs btw, which is retarded. And ofc there is still the issue that you can't proof whether or not someone used an official controller, which renders a ban void.
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"Super Pad were made Performance, the same company that made Gameshark!"
:nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik:
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lol if a decision is made to ban it at this point. I (and some others) constantly told the proof mods a year ago to ban it since it isn't official Nintendo hardware but they just went ahead and allowed it anyway.
Another great decision made by Goldeneye experts Thiradell, Thingy and Ngamer!
If we want, we can probably bring this discussion to council. I'll have to email all members and maybe within 4-5 months we'll have a decision made on this.
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Well maybe I did a bit about the all levels thing (since you need to back up on some levels etc) but everything else is from what I experience about it. There is nothing that will take away the fact that Super Pad does make 2.4 a lot easier and is a lame way to play 2.4 with. I only played 2.4 really well because I invested some serious hours into it, I would not have had to put that much time into it with a Super Pad and both 40 and 47 would have been a lot easier, of this I am certain.
Rayan: If you were against it I honestly dont get why you suddenly bought a Super Pad. I was against the use of it so I didnt buy one earlier. Perhaps I should have and all the 2.4 wr's would still have been ultra lame.
And no, it is not too late to ban it. Only three persons have used it so far, though you using it doesnt exactly make a ban more likely. I just wish I tried this thing earlier. But I guess, once again, elite mods will be the-elite's fall once again when it comes to stuff like that and like 40 levels will be Super Pad wr's eventually, by then its for sure too late. Egyptian 00A is just the beginning of the Super Pad era.
OHMSS: Koch and Shawn didnt play with Super Pad so this won't affect them at all. Super Pad does a lot more than what the original fails at, this is what I dont like about it and why it shouldnt be allowed. I know 2.4 with real controllers inside and out so I notice these differences and I think they are too great. Besides replacement sticks and decent controllers are not THAT hard to find, I never had trouble with it and you dont need a 10/10 stick to play 2.4. As far as Depot Agent goes you dont really need a very good stick since you dont use strafe changes there other than walking forward for a brief moment before the stairs.
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A ban would also have to result in a removal of 60 Ryan Koch and the majority of Fanny PRs btw, which is retarded. And ofc there is still the issue that you can't proof whether or not someone used an official controller, which renders a ban void.
lol majority? I've never used a SuperPad and I only have 2 pr's using a third party (GameCube-style) stick-Depot SA and OOA. Way to no0b your post, brah.
:-[
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I'm taking this to council tonight
Hopefully we can have a resolution in a few months.
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Henning: Ok, I was talking about a general 3rd party stick / controller ban. So do you want to ban SuperPads exclusively or all of them?
Fanny: Sorry dude, I wrongly remember that many of your PRs were done with a GC stick. My bad.
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While the subject is being opened, could someone list all times achieved and by whom with the SuperPad? The only one I know of is Boss's Runway SA 22.
OHMSS-no worries brah. :v
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OHMSS: This topic is mainly aiming for the Performance Super Pad. I cant say anything about game cube style sticks and the likes since I havent tried them though anything that improves the gameplay over the real deal like Super Pad does shouldnt be allowed, at least thats what I think.
Good that Goose makes the elite council do some work, hopefully there will be a decision about this. :)
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Should definitely be banned. Thanks Henning for making a detailed post like this and going through the effort. I think you have more than redeemed yourself for teh faked vids ;)
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I may as well just take 22 down (and all my 2.x times).
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If you're going to do that then I recommend everyone takes down all their times with 1.2 and/or dot.
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I just want them down since I can't take heat well for anything. I thought it was within the rules at the time but it's not looking that way anymore.
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Noone takes down their times before SuperPad legislation has finished because it is prohibited by the 2013 proof policy to remove legitimate times (the "holding ranks hostage" paragraph) :kappa:
The new proof policy thread was destroyed by the board bugs btw.
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The new proof policy was destroyed by conspirators who want control of the elite to transform it from a gaming community into Jon Barber's social club.
Anyways, taking the times down is stupid Boss. No one is giving YOU heat at all. AT ALL. Everyone likes you and thinks you're a cool guy so just stop being silly here. We are simply discussing what's up. And yes, you're not allowed to remove times as per the proof policy.
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The new proof policy was destroyed by conspirators who want control of the elite to transform it from a gaming community into Jon Bearder's social club.
Show a little bit of respect man? I can understand the decision either way. In any case, making regulations that cannot be enforced is problematic. Are you going to count frames to make a turn in every video from now?
And from what I understand, it makes 2.x easier to learn, not necessarily faster. In that case, you might as well ban 2.x which has been discussed to death already.
And no times made with it currently should be taken down, ever, since that would be retroactive punishment for rules made in the future.
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Five Stages of The Conscious Mind
1. Disbelief
2. Frustration
3. Rejection
4. Resignation
5. Acceptance
I see a lot of 1-3 in here.
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First of all, aren't all players who get good times with 2.x required to make a video showing their hands holding the controllers and the tv? If so, lol :kappa: Pretty sure Ace should be required to do this.
Second, we can have some sort of trust system, much like we have a trust system that people who use gameshark for frigate or splice vids (which has happened but what can you do...). So basically, any time that looks sketchy like a superpad was used (and for anyone wondering, it IS fairly easy to tell if it was), we could just require some further form of proof to prove it wasnt and if the player fails they get banned or something. Its gay that it had to resort to this but i think its still better than allowing cheating imo.
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Actually, I believe that the guilty here is Rare for the genious idea of ever inventing the 2.x control styles. Honestly, who here knows someone that played 2.x as it's SUPPOSED to be (2 players, 2 controllers, SUPER CO-OP MODE YEAH) for more than like a couple of hours. It's fucking lame, even back in the days. I remember playing with a friend or two but just because of extreme boredom at some point of the day, and then we were like "lol we can change the control style, let's see this shit, JUST DO THE FUCKING TURN MAN, oh god I don't want to play like this ever again in my life". Also, most people that get to see me playing GE ask why I am holding the controller like a dumbfuck and I'm like "it's another control style", and they go like "LOL WHAT you can change control styles?" kind of stuff. So yeah, from a conception point of view, 2.x is pretty dumb.
But anyway, since we are extremely retarded and found out that playing with two controllers is better than playing with one at a few levels (props to the starting cutscene bug that we've known forever, funny how we didn't figure that out before), let's just face the problem.
Well, I was kind of against to look down when it was discovered, so yeah I'm not usually in favor of something that will change the ranks/gameplay too much. But I was ok with everything until now (take this from an old school player that still follows everything, not a top level player). This gamepad thing is kind of annoying. I don't know, it just feels like if we are accepting third party controllers (specially when they are more efficient), then one could play with a turbo button and what would we say then? Or worse, how would we know that.
In resume: fuck Rare for ever inventing the 2.x control style. Fuck.
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My opinion doesn't really mean much here but I feel like I could give my two cents anyways.
I think there's a general consensus that 2.x/superpads are dumb. 2.x makes the game much harder but the thing is that it was included in the game by Rare so it should be allowed. It also helps us achieve our goal here at The Elite (for GE anyways) which is to complete levels as fast as we can. However, I don't think these third-party controllers should be allowed to ameliorate our play. There's also the problem of the massive amount of effort put into WRs that used 2.x. We don't want to ruin that. Since I say that, I'm also saying rubber bands/dots should be banned as well because it didn't come with GE. Dots weren't intended to be there nor was superpad (or any other controller).
The problem is how does the council (or who ever) ensures that the run is legit (not using third party equipment)? Clemens already suggested that we do webcam of the controller used in the run but it does complicate things resulting in the opinion of this thing being gay. Unfortunately, that's the only way we can go about it since the trust system doesn't really work (especially after the whole Henning thing).
This whole thing is very weird and I haven't been here long enough to give a solid solution. Hopefully the council can solve this eventually.
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If I have to redo my 3 padded times, I'll also need to show myself playing (would be too easy to lie and say I did with normal controller otherwise). I'm starting to feel ok about having to do that, but getting the webcam shot of me playing will be an adventure in my current situation.
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Fact:
Times achieved via SuperPad, 3rd Party controller use, 1.x, 2.x, GameCube stick use will never be taken down.
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Fact:
Times achieved via SuperPad, 3rd Party controller use, 1.x, 2.x, GameCube stick use will never be taken down.
^^^ This
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My two cents: ban all 2.x times, or at least set up a different rankings for them. The fact is it gives free time for no increase in skill, makes the game more inaccessible, isn't fun to play with and has now created controller issues which are proving extremely difficult to resolve. Yeah, it sucks for people who have put in heaps of time on levels (although it doesn't take away from their achievements, especially if new 2.x rankings are created) but the whole thing is becoming a bit of a farce. It's ridiculous to ban 2.x, but more ridiculous not to ban it.
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My post from the "council" topic:
I've always hated 2.x because it took away world records I put a ton of time into, but in all rational thinking, it's an ingenious part of the game that has finally been exploited in huge ways by top players today. Back in the BBWJ era, it was never even considered.
Subsequently, I am 100% in favor of keeping all 2.x times and including the Superpad in future speedrunning because legitimate first-party controllers are becoming extremely expensive to come by and will continue to rise in cost as years go by. Perhaps we can tweak the rule on controllers and state that it has to be SHAPED like an original controller? (3 handles, buttons in same positions, etc). With this rule, the GC stick would be allowed but no one uses that garbage anyway.
Bryan shouldn't get screwed out of 0:22 just because no one else thought of it. We don't ban the JAP carts for providing an extra advantage even though the cart itself is another investment, why should we ban a Superpad?
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We don't ban the JAP carts for providing an extra advantage even though the cart itself is another investment, why should we ban a Superpad?
Because the superpad is not a piece of original N64 equipment, whereas a JAP GE cart very much is.
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Then we should ban dots/tape/rubber bands too since they aren't original N64 equipment either.
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^agreed
remove everyone's times that were achieved with a dot
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I'd lose my Control times but I'd keep everything else, DO IT.
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What's the dot everyone is talking about?
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People draw a fucking dot with a marker in the middle of their television, so that way they know where their gun is shooting.
Everyone except us three uses it. So if you banned it, I'd be GE champion, Jimbo 2nd and Karl 3rd. THE WAY THINGS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE.
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C'mon Gregor. using the gamecube stick would actually make going for 1.2 pr's way harder imo (i'd probably have champ skill if i could get all my current pr's with a cube stick). only times I got w/ 2.4 and cube stick is depot sa 42 and 00 51.
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What about 1.2 and cube stick?
We need to compile a list of everyone's PRs that were achieved with any of;
- gamecube stick
- 2.X
- SuperPad
- other sorcery
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We HAVE to make a seperate ranks for 2.x now, imo, to save the Elite.
Why?
Because its IMPOSSIBLE to enforce a controller policy. Theres simply no way we can reasonably make sure that no player is using a said banned controller, and since this controller has no benefit for normal 1.x speedrunning, the best solution seems to be seperating 1.x and 2.x on the ranks.
This way everyone who used 2.x can keep their times on a ranks and be happy, and everything can be nice and clean on the normal ranks..
Yes it's gay, but honestly this is a bad time for GE due to this and I think if this doesnt happen this community is going to die pretty quickly. Its not very motivating for anyone to play GE when theres so much dispute about controllers, controller settings etc any more. It is completely retarded to have a proof policy that cannot even enforce the times on the ranks. How do we know boss got his 2.x times without the help of me or koch? How do we know Ace did or didnt use a superpad? How do we know whether or not a rubber band was used?
with a normal control style, none of these are really a problem, since only 1 person plays, theres no advantage for using any other controller (except turbo which is banned, although theres obv no way to enforce that but lets not get into another debate here,,,), theres really no big issue and GE speedrunning is fun again etc.
Like FB said, its ridiculous we have to ban it, BUT ITS EVEN WORSE NOT TO. Nobody has asked ace to make a vid of himself holding two controllers, this just shows how lackluster our GE proof mod system is. SDA would never allow that. Lets get snapping or get new proof mods, to be fucking honest.
If this doesnt happen, Im 100% sure this community will be dead within a year in terms of GE speedrunning
kthanksbai :kappa:
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As my only 2.x time is Streets 114 I wouldn't be concerned about any loss if we decided to ban it. At the time I was ok with it after Woll quoted the GE manual of "challenge for one player" or whatever (which I still think is important), but I understand both sides.
I don't agree with this notion of "how do we know someone else isn't using the second controller". That can be applied to just about everything from gamesharks and video editing and whatever else. At the end of the day there is some level of trust placed in people, and we should focus on having actual consequences for dishonesty (perm bans please?) like you would in any other competition.
Having access to legitimate components doesn't hold much weight either, as the "entry" to high level GE/PD competition is already high - N64, 2+ region carts for each game, CRT TV, recording equipment, multiple controllers for wear & tear; so if 2.x is considered legitimate as the manual seems to indicate then requiring 2 (legit) controllers shouldn't be the reason we disallow it.
All that aside, the thing I care about most right now is what's allowed for 1.x controllers. As has already been raised in this topic, I'm going through controllers incredibly quickly even with minimal play time and I'm running out of sources for new ones.
In terms of community being dead regarding this; keep in mind that electronics don't last forever, and soon enough TVs, console and carts are all going to have problems until the community is dead one way or the other. If we do end up with 2.x rankings, may as well throw up some emulator ones as well with its own rules regarding allowable software, etc. It could be a just-for-fun thing and might get all sorts of people interested in the community if nothing else.
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I am 100% in favor of making 1.x Ranking the 'true' rankings, and having a seperate 2.x rankings.
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You have to think about it, and ban/seperate/whatever what you want, now.
All I think that needs doing, is that you can't say yes to one thing now, and no to another in a year.
So make a decision council - that's your job.
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I am 100% in favor of making 1.x Ranking the 'true' rankings, and having a seperate 2.x rankings.
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Henning: I bought a Superpad anyway because the mods approved of it a long time ago. Yes, people did complain about it but it was allowed and no one cared. It's kinda funny how Clemens didn't call it cheating before when WRs were gotten but he suddenly does when I get an untied with it though. :nesquik:
Banning the Superpad now is dumb. It should have been done in the very beginning. But even then there is no way to tell if someone used 2 original controllers or a Superpad. Clemens said it will be easy to detect but I doubt that. You do make a valid point with the webcam controller/TV screen with 2.x though.. but then Henning/Monteith/Boss should make a vid too, not sure why you just singled out me in two different posts (and for the record, I think having the other controller operated by someone else would make times like 40/48 harder because of inconsistency with buttons.. I'm pretty much always consistent with the level on stream).
Don't get how this is going to make GE speedrunning dead though. Do you think 2.x will be used on every level lol?
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I am 100% in favor of making 1.x Ranking the 'true' rankings, and having a seperate 2.x rankings.
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There were more discussions about this.
Also, endless and endless discussions.
I don't know when the-elite started and what the rules were when it started.
Ofcourse new glitches were discovered that are allowed, well, ofcourse, but now it's getting too far with discussions about Superpads, 2.x, GC sticks and even dots? wow.
It seems everything is allowed followed by endless discussions - I see that happening.
The proof policy is very strict but not the usage of modified controllers, 3rd party sticks/controllers.
And because of the discussions are endless, it feels that there isn't even a discision yet, don't know if it's even made yet.
Then there is also a proof problem about this if times were done on 2.x, the we all need both hands visible + TV to see what you're doing ofcourse if a 3rd party or whatever hori dori controller isn't allowed.
Well, the way we had before 2.x was ok - same for the dot imo.
But mods, admins - it's actually the time to decide what is allowed and what not, this should have been permanently 100% sure decided before.
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I am 100% in favor of making 1.x Ranking the 'true' rankings, and having a seperate 2.x rankings.
!!!
Also, what Buddha said.
To the people saying 2.x is fine b/c it's build into the game:
It is very much common practice in other fields to ban things that seemed fine at first but made competition retarded or expensive. E.g. Swimming and ski jumping banned advantaged high-tech material suits and Formula 1 banned turbo chargers when things got out of control.
Koch: Ok then I was misinformed by Mr Goose, he said in twitch chat that you were 60/60 GC stick.
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I failed a 40 missing the trainshot only and pausing a little before the roller door with 2 original N64 controllers. However my 2nd stick is like 7/10 only and sometimes the strafing does mess up so I failed some 41s/42s with bad strafing. I honestly think you are exaggerating a little Henning in your first post. Yeah I agree the Superpad might be a bit better but there are a lot of things I disagree with.
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Yes it's gay, but honestly this is a bad time for GE due to this and I think if this doesnt happen this community is going to die pretty quickly. Its not very motivating for anyone to play GE when theres so much dispute about controllers, controller settings etc any more. kthanksbai :kappa:
Hasn't the opposite happened in the past couple years? Sure, we have slower months here and there, but look at how insane these past few months have been with players like Jimmy, Ace, Gui and Goose (and a few others) getting pr's and wr's almost daily. If anything, the controller issues serve to feed the machine. People see that nothing is ever done as far as black and white rules so anybody can pick up any controller and submit any time (provided it's recorded for proof). What we can and can't use as far as controllers goes have not been been posted in any official rules and Tyler has said again and again that there really is no way currently to hold everbody to this kind of standard, which I mostly agree with.
For the most part, it seems that people are willingly saying whether or not they are using standard controllers or superpads or whatever else.
I've been saying for the past couple of years (since the rubber band scandal) that if we ARE going to allow all of these differences in play style (which have obviously been allowed), AT LEAST a DISCUSSION on separate ranks is merited. The biggest problem I see with ANY type of separate rankings is that, AFAIK, nobody has 60/60 with any one style, such as dot, controller style, etc (excpet for Sterling :kappa:) It seems that any added ranks would be ridiculously incomplete.
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ace i wasnt singling you you, just pointing out how you got several wrs lately without ever providing 2.x proof. I did, boss provided proof at va etc. i honestly couldnt remember if henning or monteith did, so thats my fault and Im sorry. They definitely should as well..
and yes i agree that 2 perfect n64 controllers probably can get the same times, its just that the fact we cant even detect whether a 3rd party controller was used has made 2.x kinda broken and gay imo. And if you think its just you, Im sure if you read back when boss got 22 youll see me make posts about how gay it is. Ive always thought superpad was for cheaters. I only let monteith get by because i felt bad for him since 40 was like the only untied he could ever get.
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ace i wasnt singling you you, just pointing out how you got several wrs lately without ever providing 2.x proof. I did, boss provided proof at va etc. i honestly couldnt remember if henning or monteith did, so thats my fault and Im sorry. They definitely should as well..
I did make a hands video of me playing 2.4 and as far as i know you and i are the only ones to have actually done this, but with that said I don't think its really necessary that others make a video of this since 2.x is not really hard to use anyway.
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I also did one and posted it in the vids thread! ;)
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A majority of the council thinks 2.x/superpad is legal and should not be banned. I'm not here to say "this is the council's final decision", but just letting you know where it's trending there.
IMO, it's a fair, legitimate new strategy that involves standard, easily acquirable N64 equipment (not modified to allow things outside the scope of the game), it cannot be meaningfully regulated, and banning it because it's "lame", "easy to achieve good times", or "not fun" is not at all valid. It is not the job of the top players to decide what strategies are allowed based on claims of it being lame, easy, or not fun to do, because it's a huge conflict of interest and does not promote open competition.
A nutshell of the points I made in the council topic: there is precedent for this in other competitive gaming aspects. Fighting game tournaments do not ban custom controllers, including ones that give a player a decided advantage in certain situations over other "standard" controllers. Fans are allowed, and encouraged, to build their own custom sticks, as long as there are no signals sent to the game that standard controllers can't send (macro buttons, etc). Whether or not all eventual WRs will be done with superpad is irrelevant, because obviously the WRs should be using the best strategy. Cost of acquiring this controller is not a valid concern (unless it's impossible to acquire, which it isn't), because most GE speedrunners own multiple copies of the game across different regions, multiple consoles to play them on, etc... there is no difference between this and buying a controller that is more well-suited to certain strategies than your old equipment.
If you're going to bring forth reasonable reasons to ban 2.x/superpad, I'm willing to listen, but you will have to convince me why none of what I just said matters, and you have to do it without saying it's too annoying, easy, lame, expensive, unfun, whatever. Speedrunning is built on lame, often unfun strategies; you guys in the GE community shouldn't be strangers to that.
The most troubling point to me is when Henning basically said he had no problems with 2.4, but because he learned it "the hard way", other people should be forced to do that too, and not take a shortcut with the superpad to get times faster than he got them (or, alternatively, he laments the fact that superpad wasn't discovered earlier, because he wasted all that time doing it the hard way). If you make the decision based on this, you effectively have to ban any strategy change, ever, for all levels. I imagine a ton of people were upset when 500 hours of Aztec grinding was made irrelevant by the discovery of the glass skip. After 12 years of GE advancing with new strategies routinely discovered, making times easier to get and invalidating thousands of hours of work in an instant... Henning complaining about THIS one in particular because it affects him personally is bothersome to me.
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Yea I agree that's bothersome and many of the other arguments are silly too.
However I would say if we would ban something then it's 2.x
Banning superpad is just too hard, too hard to keep track off.
I think banning 2.x would give the ranks a fresh start and no one would even try to use it in secret because it's too easy to spot on the vids.
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btw I hate to say this, but if superpad was banned, then Henning would have to prove somehow that he didn't use superpad for his 40/47 depot runs :nesquik:
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I am not the only one who thinks Super Pad shouldn't be legit Infil, I don't understand why you attack me just because I brought up the differences and trying to make a point. What troubles me and others with the Performance Super Pad is that it is 3rd party made, not really the advantages themselves. If it was Nintendo brand then I would have not brought this up even if the controller was exactly the same. I used the differences to make it clear that there are differences between a official normal Nintendo 64 controller and this 3rd party controller. I haven't "complained" about new strategies being invented otherwise.
The big question and point I'm trying to make is; should it be allowed to use 3rd party stuff like the Performance Super Pad to achieve new times?
It is really worth to discuss and make some final decision out of because it never was before.
LOL Illu, true point right there, I guess I just got selfowned :kappa:
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I brought up that point just because, based on me reading this thread, it seemed you were upset that others could now achieve good 2.x times with less effort, and that seemed like a good reason for you to support a ban. You used words like "less skill", and "lame" (typically a synonym for "not convenient for me") and talked down on the idea of people using superpad to get times faster than you did. If you don't actually feel this way, then I got a conflicting impression from your early posts in this topic.
I'm not sure why the controller having Nintendo branding on it makes a difference at all. Console gaming is not a walled-off garden, people can (and do) use 3rd party controllers for all sorts of things in all sorts of speedrunning ventures. Some people will, for example... play an Xbox 360 exclusive game using a PS3 pad connected through an adapter, because they prefer the other shape. Would you consider any achievements they get in the game to be invalid because they're not using a stock 360 controller?
If the equipment is readily available for everyone to purchase and use, and it does not provide any input that cannot be sent via other controllers (you aren't using turbo buttons, there's no special circuitry designed to perform some irregular, superhuman feat, or whatever), then there's no reason why it should be disallowed IMO.
Really, I don't see why the community isn't seeing this as an opportunity to get some cool WRs easier than they could have before. Several people in the scene jumped on the possibility of playing on Japanese or PAL cartridges to get an advantage, even if they had to go to some trouble and expense to buy it. Why is this one suddenly so taboo? Is it because you don't think 2.x is a fun control scheme and you don't want it to have a more prominent place in GE speedrunning (while this may be a totally valid point of view, I don't think you can ban 2.x based on this opinion)? If that's the case, why support the "old way" of doing 2.x using standard Nintendo controllers?
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People are afraid of change/adapting.
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Infil for MVP.
That's exactly how I saw things a half year ago when I tried out 2.x on levels that required more than 1 strafe. I was more than desperate to get an untied on GE (hadn't for over 4 years). There's no better rush than going for an untied you know you can reasonably get. Maybe I did go over the edge and use a 3rd party controller, but seeing a new player like Monteith get an untied with a 3rd party controller inspired me to try it.
I am still in favor of 2.x being banished to a separate rankings though. The next best open is just to leave it as it is. There are no other options.
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BRB
I'm going to mutilate one of my bad controllers, just chop off the entire left side, D pad and L button, and melt it into the right side of my good controller. Then I'll have 1 big controller, Wii U size, that will make playing with 2.X a lot easier.
I'll stream some play with this Frankencontroller in about a week hopefully.
Oh man, I'm actually just going to insert the 2nd motherboard attached to only the control stick, completely inside the first controller. The 2nd control stick will go in the rightmost arm, under the C buttons.
Holy shit, about to become GE champion :kappa: :nesquik:
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Even if 2.x are still legit on the rankings, a seperate (even if non official) rankings without 2.x seems like a reasonable idea, so people can see where they are at otherwise
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I am still in favor of 2.x being banished to a separate rankings though.
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hmm this franken control thing might be a reason to ban this
I mean someone could make this considerably easier to control, enough so that he could use this on every level and then he'd have the ultimate advantage.
Making 1.x easier to control isn't really doable in the same sense.
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2.x should stay as it is, if anything there could be a separate ranking for 1.2, but those should not be the main rankings. Making Franken controllers obv shouldnt be allowed, its exactly like the trent curcuit board strat if not worse. I can deal with 3rd party controllers but removing buttons and shit is ridiculous.
There can be a rule to prevent this to happen for relevant 2.x times (90 pointers and above at least) is that those times should require video of you playing live with approved controllers just like the 2.4 proof policy but a step further. Need to see the controller and the screen/run etc, that would prevent such a thing to happen.
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lol'd @ Frankentroller
:v
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I got that word from an episode of Storage Wars where Dave Hester finds a vintage bicycle which was Schwinn or something. He takes it to the bike expert who tells him that it is a "Frankenbike" aka a bike that has been built from parts of several other bikes. Therefore the prefix "Franken-" can be administered to anything where you are adding, alternating, and altering parts from more than one device into a single device.
Thanks Dave Hester! #YUUUUUUUP
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Awesome idea. Frankentroller should be legit for sure. Silly to say that it can't be, for example, what if this "Performance" company released their own 3rd party controller that was identical to Goose's contraption? Would it be allowed then? We shouldn't have to wait for companies to decide our gaming fates, the power is in our hands!
In conclusion everyone has it within their means to create controllers that suit them for 2.x purposes. It's an amazing idea, this game has just moved forward a decade.
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Lol I actually agree with that.
It's different than circuit board, because in that instance you are completely corrupting the game's inputs for trickery. That's like the crooked cartridge strat.
But building your own controller? Well fuck it the door is open for this now. All you really need is to always be playing with 2.4. The 2nd controller's Z button will go where the main Z goes. And just attach the 2nd control stick wherever comfortable. Easy shit.
There is NO corruption of the game's original inputs. That's what's illegal. By simply placing the game's 2.4 inputs in more convenient spots I am doing nothing illegal.
ANOTHER great idea. I'm going to build like a double X device. Think about a + and X together. It will be like that, surrounding the control stick. That way, the 2nd control stick can ONLY go 8 directions! Hell yes, no missing strafe changes for me.
Deal with it, kids who paid $80k for an engineering degree. I'm changing the world bitches :nesquik:
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Council plaz.
Plaz stahp dis madness. :kappa:
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The council unanimously agrees that SuperPad and 2.X will remain as is.
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:nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :kappa: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik: :nesquik:
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:-\
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If you can build the Frankentroller, do it. I'd be interested :)
To all those thinking about banning non-Nintendo hardware: to put this in perspective we're talking about a 15-year old system here, not something that you can readily buy in new condition anymore. Nintendo-only restrictions made sense even 10 years ago, not anymore. That alone restricts access to the playing field. Superpad, GC stick, whatever, actually makes it feasible for people to play again, and that's a good thing. I don' think I've seen anything quite as good as the original hardware but that's a different subject.
On a personal feeling, I think having separate rankings is a bad idea. Being able to filter is fine but if people have to compete on 120 levels instead of 60 and re-do a bunch of times to maintain position on either, that's just arbitrary and dumb. Especially since 2.x is only feasible on a few levels.
I want to see GE done fast. If you have the ability to play with two controllers, more power to you. I have no desire to do it myself but it's cool.
Ace, Boss, Henning, more power to you guys. I'd like to see more untieds!
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It appears as though this is the period the super pad has been waiting for.
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^ best post in elite history?
P.s super pad can suck my super dick.
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A simple solution: improve the rankings and let us have a defined set of "allowed" control styles (or controllers, for that matter). So one could choose between the "ALL" rankings (which is the one we have now) and every other style (1.x, 2.x, super pad, karl jobst's dick as the stick, etc). When a WR/PR is achieved, it will say on what style or combination it was gotten.
Examples:
- Clemens gets Runway 22 using 1.2. It will be annouced as an untied WR for 1.x and a tied WR on "ALL" rankings.
- Din mor achieves Runway 23 using 2.x. It's going to be only a PR on ALL and 2.x rankings.
- I get Runway 22 using 2.x. It will be a WR on both ALL and 2.x, but 1.x rankings won't get touched ( :nesquik:)
There could be also an option of setting the default combination to a specific user. So let's say I'm PRing again on GE but I don't want to see all this 2.x crap. I set my default rankings to 1.x and that will probably motivate me more since I will be at the pace or level as the other players I see. I will probably want to ignore everything 2.x related since I will never play like that.
Also, somewhere on the rankings there should be an explanation what's 2.x is, why it's faster (and at what levels so far) and why we separate (if we do) the rankings.
EDIT: people could have different PRs using different control styles. Example: Bryan's 22 is 2.x but his 1.x time is 23. Anyway, just an idea.