The Elite Forum

The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: RWG on July 02, 2013, 10:00:50 pm

Title: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: RWG on July 02, 2013, 10:00:50 pm
I've had dozens of eliters message me about this but none of them want their names known in fear of Henning taking repercussions, so I will stand up as the honourable Ned Stark-like man I am and point out this obvious splice.


Here's what to do:

-Download Henning's 18:51

-Open it in a program which displays the audio waveforms

-Watch what the audio does in between the Silo and Frigate loading scenes

-Watch again what the audio does in between Bunker 2 and Statue


There are some other places the audio might do this... Softman25 will be along shortly with his contribution to the elite summing up all the variances in audio during this run.

Anyways, unlike the Surface 2 video where it was 1/1000 possible to replicate what Henning's video showed, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY what happens here is duplicable.  The evidence Softman will exhibit is 100% proof that Henning's Agent Single Segment 18:51 Game Time run is fake beyond any doubt.

It makes sense for him to splice during those spots... basically get a run on a string of levels which all begin with a level with big RNG.  There might be clips before Jungle, Control and Cradle (which if you watch the run is the most RIDICULOUS Cradle run ever - so obviously fake) but Softman will be by later to explain these.


Anyways, feel free to discuss any more evidence on Henning here.  He has done nothing but deny more fakes from the day he was caught, and he keeps getting caught.  I recommend removing him from the elite completely at this point.  I'm sure you will all remember I was the one majorly in favour of Henning's real times NOT being removed from the rankings in order to keep accuracy on the rankings, but it has come to a point now where we simply cannot trust any of his times are real, and he needs to be removed.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Softman25 on July 02, 2013, 10:01:53 pm
WILL BE POSTING LATER TONIGHT

TIME FOR UNIVERSITY NOW  :kappa:

#3HourLectures
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Ngamer on July 02, 2013, 10:09:19 pm
lol
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Soft-Hedwig on July 03, 2013, 12:46:19 am
(https://forums.the-elite.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff326%2Frozzy1334%2Fediting_man163192543_std.jpg&hash=958dbd917ac8fe07fd0bfe18138b05edd9d0cd0b)
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: OHMSS on July 03, 2013, 04:06:19 am
Softman25 will be along shortly with his contribution to the elite summing up all the variances in audio during this run.

Audio engineering analysis by a teenie law student that lives on twitch ... great -.-
(no offense)


Anyways, unlike the Surface 2 video where it was 1/1000 possible to replicate what Henning's video showed, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY what happens here is duplicable.

Again, your logic is flawed.

Couldn't reproduce it within a few minutes ... OMG RUN IS FAKE

Went out for a walk and couldn't find the Higgs boson ... OMG HIGGS BOSON IS FAKE

♥ elite sciences
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Smit on July 03, 2013, 04:34:09 am
(https://forums.the-elite.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.blippitt.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F03%2FPopcorn-01-Michael-Jackson.gif&hash=8e732d44057be43cda7976ec2b5c63bf38dbf6b7)
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Softman25 on July 03, 2013, 04:46:40 am
OK, I'm writing this up now. (I'm doing it in notepad, and double checking everything I wrote down before)

The more I write, the more I really regret downloading the damn video in the first place.

To be quite honest OHMSS, I do take offense to that comment, greatly. I do understand where you're coming from, but I am offended. Considering that I don't even live on twitch, I further find that to be a horribly in-accurate statement, and again, offensive.

I am not "engineering" - I watched this video without knowing a damn thing, and happened to notice things that others did as well. I am merely observing peculiarities. I don't intend on calling this science, just observation. If it's wrong, I'll be happy.

Seriously, do me a favor and disprove everything I'm going to post shortly. I'd appreciate it. Don't just jump up and down saying "You're just a little faggot" - but actually disprove it, discredit it, whatever. Let's actually have some analysis here, instead of a shitfight which is what always happens.

My apologies to Henning, but if you are truly innocent like you claim you are - then you, or others, will be able to solidly rebut everything that is to be posted shortly.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: RWG on July 03, 2013, 05:45:03 am
I truly believe there is a non-zero chance that OHMSS is a fake Henning persona.  He already has admitted that Gregor Dregenhart isn't his real name.  And he "lives in Austria" where no other eliters live and has no chance of ever meeting another eliter.  Convenient eh?

And "Gregor's" recent good GE PR was Frigate Agent 0:24... maybe Henning testing out whether or not he can get away with another faked vid?  Maybe he's found a better way to do it and is trying to see if it will pass off?

Whatever, no need to derail this thread with that garbage, but yeah I've thought of this... and I'm not the only eliter who thinks this is possible.

I'm discussing the deal with Softman on AIM now.  Henning's run is 100% fake and we're about to show why with 100% undeniable proof.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Softman25 on July 03, 2013, 06:26:55 am
OK...my evidence here is simply three imgur albums. Originally it was to be all about the audio...but that's all irrelevant now.

HENNING'S RUN: https://imgur.com/a/arX63#0

AXEL Z'S RUN: https://imgur.com/a/gtP1D#2

MY OWN TEST VIDEO: https://imgur.com/a/FEtB7#2   (THE FULL VIDEO - http://www.mediafire.com/?5o4q5bc5htyq2y6 (http://www.mediafire.com/?5o4q5bc5htyq2y6) [I'm aware that I'm horrible at Silo, but that's not the point])



It all revolves around the fade.

You will notice in BOTH Axel's run and my own test - there is a one frame transition. It is a "solid" transition. If there is already an existing file, the best time can be seen in the one frame. If not, there is nothing. (The entire line disappears if there is a cheat as well) I have tested this on most of the Single Segment runs posted on the Elite - they all check out in this manner - EXCEPT Henning's....

In Henning's run however, there is a CLEAR bleeding of the frames. In not a SINGLE testing of ANY other run, can the status screen be seen AT ALL while the image for the next level is on the screen.

I would like someone to please reproduce this effect BY THEMSELVES - that will be the test as to whether this is fake or not.

(Also, my apologies to Axel for using his run for this. It was the only run where you consistently actually stopped on the status screen for more than a frame. Most others spammed the start button so quickly, there was only one frame on the status screen, the "second" image - I therefore didn't use it. Again, my apologies)


EDIT: Facility to Runway transition is the "standard" one frame transition with a solid appearance...as opposed to the two frame transition of other levels.


EDIT 2 - this could just be aliasing...but it's still dodgy.

I suggest to anyone wanting to disprove this - ignore this - check the peculiar sounds before Frigate and Statue.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Softman25 on July 03, 2013, 07:18:28 am
https://imgur.com/a/4zl2X#0


This is the end of Archives.

Pictures speak for themselves...

We have been able to replicate the cursor STARTING at the top - however are not sure whether it STARTED at the top or was in the middle for ONE FRAME and then appeared to the top...looking for opinions.



Disproven - thank you Ace.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Lark on July 03, 2013, 10:51:25 am
With Henning removed, Goose will gain a rank and become a top 5 player again. This is his motive. Completely disregard anything he says.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Carathorn on July 03, 2013, 11:49:26 am
How does motive matter if the run really is fake?
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Mavalock on July 03, 2013, 01:49:45 pm
OHMSS

Obviously Henning Makes Spliced Speedruns

HENNING = CONFIRMED FAKE  :kappa:
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Darth Vader on July 03, 2013, 03:32:57 pm
Let the show begin :nesquik:
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: ManceGaydar on July 03, 2013, 04:37:54 pm
How does motive matter if the run really is fake?

It doesn't really but you should still disregard things like " I will stand up as the honourable Ned Stark-like man I am" LOL. A more accurate analogy would be "I'm willing to stab anyone in the back in order to move up a place as the Walder Fray-like man I am."
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Soft-Hedwig on July 03, 2013, 07:04:23 pm
How does motive matter if the run really is fake?
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: DJS on July 04, 2013, 04:50:40 pm
i dont really understand what the fake part is? if you look at the run, you can see that Henning encoded with probably one of the worst deinterlacers available, as it suffers from chroma ghosting. (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=89392)

on the other hand, i might've miss understood the whole thing..

edit: is this what you mean?  https://imgur.com/TejDmIN,QCalPXm,g3PQnbI,L9WB92L#0 (https://imgur.com/TejDmIN,QCalPXm,g3PQnbI,L9WB92L#0)   - made it myself, from a raw lagarith recording, and just deinterlaced it with sony vegas shitty deinterlacer.
edit2: raw recording frame by frame https://imgur.com/GoNu6Za,qqsDUr5,GRa7DCt#0
edit3: good deinterlacing (Yua), ready to go to youtube https://imgur.com/NGBaEkS,5quLH9T,2RygLwG#0

what did you guys use to download Hennings video? wanna know so i get the same exact video.

edit4: its worth noting that im really bored and just trying to help out. if this thing is already sorted out, then nevermind me.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Softman25 on July 04, 2013, 05:52:52 pm
This thing is not sorted out.

Right now there are two imputations against this run.

1) The fading in and out is splicing. (What you put in Edit 1 is what I'm talking about...which is plausible if it was consistent...which is isn't. Obviously if this chroma ghosting IS an inconsistent thing - then don't mind me)
2) The peculiar sounds before Frigate and Statue are splices. (Could be static...but it's a couple of very convenient places for some "static" to occur...)

But yes, we definitely need to actually sit down to discuss this so to speak. It's nice to find someone else who is actually trying to look through it.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: RWG on July 04, 2013, 06:36:32 pm
It doesn't really but you should still disregard things like " I will stand up as the honourable Ned Stark-like man I am" LOL. A more accurate analogy would be "I'm willing to stab anyone in the back in order to move up a place as the Walder Fray-like man I am."

This post is 10/10

The run is still fake

Welcome to the elite's red wedding, bitches.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: OHMSS on July 04, 2013, 10:06:03 pm
Softman: Sorry dude, I didn't want to insult you. You are a cool guy but you took some collateral damage from my refusal towards how those topics are presented. The "100%  PROVEN FAKE, REMOVE NOW" because of unsought (but reasonable) indications is annoying.

Goose: Grow up idiot. Frig 24 had A on screen btw, the Euro splice syndicate has reached a new level I guess.

Run is probably fake though. (http://f.666kb.com/i/cfilkcf0gd38vdsqb.png) The jump to constant zeros is an uncommon thing in LowFi A/D conversion in general and at the GE level music start in particular (you can tell by watching a lot of other level start audio signals - all of them have a smooth or even overlapping waveform transition without any pause). Those zero intervals seem to be sometimes guarded by what looks like artifical fade in/outs, but I'm not sure on that one. I also compared with an Illu 00A 43:20 run as a trusted vid, and things are looking bad for Henning's case, most of all the Archives start.
This isn't a definite judgement, it could still be some specific of the encoding or re-encoding used at the time that neither me nor anyone here knows about or even some detail about GE or N64 sound. But I doubt it, the deviation of the waveforms is really big on a 0.2s scale (which is an eternity in 44kHz audio).
I have some more chumbersome investigation steps in mind, but I won't bother for at least the next few weeks so feel free to do your own tests.

Quote
-Watch what the audio does in between the Silo and Frigate loading scenes

-Watch again what the audio does in between Bunker 2 and Statue

Those look normal to me. It's late at night though.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Carathorn on July 04, 2013, 10:13:45 pm
Softman: Sorry dude, I didn't want to insult you. You are a cool guy but you took some collateral damage from my refusal towards how those topics are presented. The "100%  PROVEN FAKE, REMOVE NOW" because of unsought (but reasonable) indications is annoying.

Goose: Grow up idiot. Frig 24 had A on screen btw, the Euro splice syndicate has reached a new level I guess.

Run is probably fake though. (http://f.666kb.com/i/cfilkcf0gd38vdsqb.png) The jump to constant zeros is an uncommon thing in LowFi A/D conversion in general and at the GE level music start in particular (you can tell by watching a lot of other level start audio signals - all of them have a smooth or even overlapping waveform transition without any pause). I also compared with an Illu 00A 43:20 run as a trusted vid, and things are looking bad for Henning's case, most of all the Archives start.
This isn't a definite judgement, it could still be some specific of the encoding or re-encoding used at the time that neither me nor anyone here knows about or even some detail about GE or N64 sound. But I doubt it, the deviation of the waveforms is really big on a 0.2s scale (which is an eternity in 44kHz audio).
I have some more chumbersome investigation steps in mind, but I won't bother for at least the next few weeks so feel free to do your own tests.

You are not far from the answer here, altough the answer lies not within waveform analysis. It lies within analysis of what you hear and what the N64 can or cannot do, for which you need to dig a bit deeper into to programming possibilites of the N64 audio engine. more info on this soon though, the whole case is being brought before the council first.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: RWG on July 06, 2013, 05:17:01 am
I made a straw poll to see what the general populace thinks of the Henning situation:

http://strawpoll.me/161472/r

:kappa:
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Thiradell on July 06, 2013, 02:12:10 pm
Update:

The council is currently deliberating over what to do about Henning, and I can say that there is a lot of support for both sides. Those sides are:

1. To ban Henning from ever submitting new times to the-elite, and to backroll all his times to before his first known instance of cheating, which currently stands as his 00 Agent single-segment run, submitted in March 2010.
2. To erase all of Henning's times from the rankings, and ban him from ever submitting new ones. The basis of this is that Henning can't be trusted, and we can't be certain whether any of his times are real or fake; he's lost the privilege.

Henning recently confessed to Statue Agent 2:19, Control SA 4:09, and his A/SA/00 single-segment runs being fake. This is a separate confession from him admitting his Frigate times were fake, and some Council members think there could be more fakes as yet undiscovered.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Scrambler Fanny on July 06, 2013, 02:30:31 pm
Wow. 

How he isn't banned and erased already is probably the only thing MORE bizarre than him actually cheating and lying multiple times.  At the absolute most as far as Elite generosity goes, he lied once, was frozen and on the assumption that he remained legit was allowed to stay.

He has deceived us again.  The only thing that should be considered is total erasure.  The "inaccurate ranks" argument is totally absurd.  The rankings will be inaccurate as long as the name Henning Blom is on it.  This goes for PD as well.  In my opinion, Henning is now the most untrustworthy person in the community (aside from Troll-accounts which affect nothing) and is deserving only of permanent erasure.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: DYM on July 06, 2013, 02:34:16 pm
To point 1: How do you any time of his achieved before March 2010 isn't fake as well? You can't trust ANY of his times anymore. Not even Dam 0:53. He was given a second chance but insisted he his remaining times were all real. Goose told me his Egypt 0:46s are probably fake and I believe he hasn't said anything about those yet. Wouldn't be surprised if his entire set of S2 PRs is fake as well.

There is no loss if all of his times are wiped out. He doesn't care about the Elite anymore anyway.

Quote
In my opinion, Henning is now the most untrustworthy person in the community (aside from Troll-accounts which affect nothing) and is deserving only of permanent erasure.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: flukey lukey on July 06, 2013, 02:55:34 pm
Why are there fake times still on the rankings?
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Darth Vader on July 06, 2013, 02:58:25 pm
I've met Henning 3 times, he's a cool friend of mine and that wont change. However like Shawn said, Henning not being erased permanently after all this mess will be EVEN more surprising to me than Henning been having cheating. I thought it was made CLEAR in the policy that ANY fake times discovered AFTER january 2013, it would result in permanent ban for the player. I guess The Elite are decievers as well. If that is not the case with the policy, then ignore that. Anyway, Henning had a chance to clean up all his mess, he got his shot and didn't take it and i would not be surprised at all if there are more fakes out there. It's sad to me if Henning will be erased from the rankings, but it is the only right thing. A cheater is a cheater.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: AZ on July 06, 2013, 03:16:52 pm
I removed 2:19, 4:09 and Henning's A/SA/00A runs. Not sure why Tyler didn't the moment he made this public. Jimbo already removed Henning's "on the podium" achievement.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Lark on July 06, 2013, 03:40:55 pm
We shouldn't just be removing times that Henning has confirmed to be fake. ALL of his times should be removed. The solution regarding him being backrolled to his times prior to 2010 isn't fair.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Illu on July 06, 2013, 03:45:31 pm
I don't think a permanent ban is needed, but yea I'm all for banning Hennings times from the time of his first fake that we know off.

Then also ofcourse he can only PR on stream, which would become the standard eventually anyway but removing the majority of his times would seem like a good solution to me, don't need to ban him completely.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Cyberwrath87 on July 06, 2013, 03:52:33 pm
Why the hell are any of his times still on the rankings? Is Henning paying people on the admin council or something? Over the past 12 years of being at The Elite, I've seen cheaters come and go and the Elite has dealt with the issues on a case-by-case basis how they see fit, but I mean wow, how can anyone take this community seriously anymore? We should not be seeing "HB" anywhere on the Elite rankings, let alone the front page still.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Scrambler Fanny on July 06, 2013, 04:11:31 pm
Why the hell are any of his times still on the rankings? Is Henning paying people on the admin council or something? Over the past 12 years of being at The Elite, I've seen cheaters come and go and the Elite has dealt with the issues on a case-by-case basis how they see fit, but I mean wow, how can anyone take this community seriously anymore? We should not be seeing "HB" anywhere on the Elite rankings, let alone the front page still.

We shouldn't just be removing times that Henning has confirmed to be fake. ALL of his times should be removed. The solution regarding him being backrolled to his times prior to 2010 isn't fair.

Why are there fake times still on the rankings?

Axel, I've always liked you as an Eliter and I'd consider you a friend, but your obsession with rankings and how YOU view them is wrong, if it is as I perceive it.  You STILL want to give Henning credit where he has clearly deserved none.  The only thing to do in this situation, which is CLEARLY A BLACK-AND-WHITE SCENARIO, is to lean one way or the other.  Either do nothing or do EVERYTHING to eliminate this foolish player from the ranks/boards/any contest entries/etc.  

Again, I feel like your (and anyone else feeling your sentiments) bias towards numbers, statistics, etc is blinding you from the REAL punitive decision that needs to be met here.  I realize that the council will make a decision based on whatever criteria they have collectively decided (might this criteria be expressed for the rest of us to see, at least?) and I firmly stand behind the idea of having a council.

And like has been stated and should be the end of the discussion, doesn't the proof policy CLEARLY state that Henning should be removed permanently due to his MULTIPLE infractions?  Is there any thing I am missing or has the corrective action simply been delayed for no apparent reason?
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: RWG on July 06, 2013, 04:16:20 pm
^ In all honesty Shawn, although we have a council, there are really only 3 or 4 people who care to discuss anything in there.  The discussion is almost entirely between Axel and myself; and of course Axel still thinks the only reason I want Henning banned is because I want to gain a rank (LOL!)

Axel even suggested that the only reason Henning started faking is because I kept trolling him, saying he only had 1 untied, and he felt pressure to get more! (MEGA LOL!)

Anyways, really only Axel, DK, Cara, maybe Come, Jimbo and Third; and myself are willing to offer much of value in the council.  The rest of the members just show up and make 1 post to show their face and feel like they are important.  Of course we still haven't heard in there from Ngamer, YE, Clark, Thingy, etc.

Many people have the power to remove Henning from the rankings (Ngamer, Thiradell, Axel Z, YE) but of course two of them don't care, Thiradell wants him removed but doesn't want to overstep his bounds, and Axel doesn't want him removed.  This isn't necessarily a problem of what is right or wrong:  it is more a problem of not having proper moderators and administrators who are willing to take action or make a decisive, executive decision ; in place here... something I have gone on about for 6+ years now.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Darth Vader on July 06, 2013, 04:16:59 pm
Cyberwrath and Shawn hit the nail right on the head there.



Axel even suggested that the only reason Henning started faking is because I kept trolling him, saying he only had 1 untied, and he felt pressure to get more! (MEGA LOL!)



LMFAO
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: AEB on July 06, 2013, 04:17:53 pm
If Henning isn't removed from the ranks, you'll need to add "Henning is the exception to this" to the proof policy regarding faking videos.

EDIT: This post is meant to be sarcastic, if that wasn't obvious.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Zeppo08 on July 06, 2013, 04:34:19 pm
This site is a complete and utter joke.  Only gaming community on the planet where a proven cheater doesn't get removed from the rankings.  The elite council is mainly full of the most spineless cowards you'll ever come across in your life.  How do you expect a bunch of spinless losers to remove a top player from the site? They haven't got the balls, simple as that, and they fucking run this site.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: RWG on July 06, 2013, 04:53:08 pm
Wow, that's the first lost4440 post I have ever agreed with.  Thumbs up, lost.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Jimbo on July 06, 2013, 04:55:29 pm
This site is a complete and utter joke.  Only gaming community on the planet where a proven cheater doesn't get removed from the rankings.  The elite council is mainly full of the most spineless cowards you'll ever come across in your life.  How do you expect a bunch of spinless losers to remove a top player from the site? They haven't got the balls, simple as that, and they fucking run this site.

Not true, asshole, now go back into your corner and stay there.

The hardest part about this entire decision-making process is that there is a lot of emotion involved. There are plenty of people who have met Henning and know that a lot of times are actually legit. If we fully ban Henning like the rest of the Elite is calling for, we are conceding the last few years of Henning's rise to the top was a complete and utter waste of time, fake, and absolutely erased from the memory of the Elite. We are throwing in the towel that we at the Elite have failed. That's hard to accept, and for guys like myself and Axel who hold roles as historians and proof moderator, it's not considered the best decision even if everyone else wants him gone.

My personal suggestion is to backroll him to whenever it's deemed that he was still 100% genuine - late 2009. With this backroll comes a full ban of Henning; his board account will be banned and erased, he is never allowed to submit new PRs ever again, and his name will be made an example of in the Elite's proof policy in all the negative connotation that comes with being the perpetrator.

If you're going to accuse Axel of being a biased, spineless proof admin - then you have to throw me in there too. The Elite Rankings will always be a compilation of rankings that have tracked the progress of each player throughout time, and without this tracking, what do we have? One cannot just simply completely eradicate Henning from the history of the Elite, that's not how we work.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: wheatrich on July 06, 2013, 05:06:16 pm
Update:

The council is currently deliberating over what to do about Henning, and I can say that there is a lot of support for both sides. Those sides are:

1. To ban Henning from ever submitting new times to the-elite, and to backroll all his times to before his first known instance of cheating, which currently stands as his 00 Agent single-segment run, submitted in March 2010.
2. To erase all of Henning's times from the rankings, and ban him from ever submitting new ones. The basis of this is that Henning can't be trusted, and we can't be certain whether any of his times are real or fake; he's lost the privilege.

Henning recently confessed to Statue Agent 2:19, Control SA 4:09, and his A/SA/00 single-segment runs being fake. This is a separate confession from him admitting his Frigate times were fake, and some Council members think there could be more fakes as yet undiscovered.

BUT HENNING IS TELLING THE TRUTH THIS TIME YOU GUYZ

that council topic should have more logic fails per post than the discussion about the truth contest.

edit since i xposted with jim
fwiw I'm fine with letting Henning's truthful times on the ranks--when you can tell me what those are with certainty.
I don't see why he has to be nuked from the boards, his crime is what? lying on a messageboard? this is the internet.  I guess to keep him from creating more stuff b/c nobody here bothers to check an IP for a few seconds?  He's not likely going to come back now.  If he did and just trolled everyone he gets banned w/e.

Why can't he submit pr's?   He can submit all he wants, we don't have to put them up (but it would save everyone time of telling him lol no).  What if he went to a meet (lol) and set a time right in front of a proof mod and it's legit and taped?

that and I don't think there's any reason to delete the posts he's already made.

lol fail @ putting his name in the proof policy.  Holy crap.

edit2--omg, I get a summer contest loss erased from the record books now!  wooooooooooooo

edit3--2 was a joke obv
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Scrambler Fanny on July 06, 2013, 05:42:34 pm
The hardest part about this entire decision-making process is that there is a lot of emotion involved.

IRRELEVANT!!

There are plenty of people who have met Henning and know that a lot of times are actually legit.

IRRELEVANT!!

If we fully ban Henning like the rest of the Elite is calling for, we are conceding the last few years of Henning's rise to the top was a complete and utter waste of time, fake, and absolutely erased from the memory of the Elite.

EXACTLY!!  THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DESERVES!!

We are throwing in the towel that we at the Elite have failed.

ABSOLUTELY WRONG, JIM!!  IN FACT, THE EXACT OPPOSITE IS TRUE!!  THE ELITE IS PROVING IT'S VALUE AND WORTH BY NOT TOLERATING THIS BEHAVIOR!!

That's hard to accept, and for guys like myself and Axel who hold roles as historians and proof moderator, it's not considered the best decision even if everyone else wants him gone.

BANNING HENNING FOR LIFE WOULD DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO EITHER YOURS OR AXEL'S HISTORIAN STATUS!!!

My personal suggestion is to backroll him to whenever it's deemed that he was still 100% genuine - late 2009. With this backroll comes a full ban of Henning; his board account will be banned and erased, he is never allowed to submit new PRs ever again, and his name will be made an example of in the Elite's proof policy in all the negative connotation that comes with being the perpetrator.

If you're going to accuse Axel of being a biased, spineless proof admin - then you have to throw me in there too. The Elite Rankings will always be a compilation of rankings that have tracked the progress of each player throughout time, and without this tracking, what do we have? One cannot just simply completely eradicate Henning from the history of the Elite, that's not how we work.

I DISAGREE 100% WITH THE REST OF YOUR POST!!

Jim, name me one "real-life" scenario in a court of law that would rule in the way you just described.  Stop making weak and pathetic arguments that you think might affect YOU.  This decision isn't about any status of yours, your post is extremely selfish.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: ManceGaydar on July 06, 2013, 06:42:29 pm
Henning's a really nice guy so it's a shame that he did this. I guess he got frustrated one day and faked one time, and then got a bit carried away with it. I did think it was completely insane that he'd passed Boss, and now we've learnt that he almost definitely hasn't legitimately passed him.

Yeah it sucks that he's wasted the best years of his life for absolutely nothing, but that is his own doing and removing him demonstrates a lesson to both him and any potential cheaters. 

You say the best reason for keeping some of his times is because you want the ranks to be as accurate as possible, but the fact is that the ranks will never be accurate as long as he is on there. You have absolutely no way to determine whether any of his times are real, even Archives 16.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Wouter Jansen on July 06, 2013, 06:46:43 pm
His arguments are sound, and yelling doesn't make yours any more or less valid.

So we discovered a liar and now we want to continue taking ongoing actions based on what he says? (ie new claims of fakes)
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: .. on July 06, 2013, 06:52:41 pm
Regardless of the decision the Council makes regarding Henning's times, his forum account will not be banned nor will any of his posts be removed regarding this incident unless they violate the rules of the forum.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Lark on July 06, 2013, 07:10:01 pm
Quote
My personal suggestion is to backroll him to whenever it's deemed that he was still 100% genuine

Henning was never genuine. He very well could have been lying back then; we just didn't catch it yet.

So the guy that has gotten caught cheating on more than one occasion is still going to have his times on the ranks. That's laughable.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: OHMSS on July 06, 2013, 07:40:30 pm
Now you have to remove all of his times for several reasons:
1.) As Stefan Persson said, the policy that everyone agreed on clearly says so, and rules are rules. Emotions are indeed irrelevant.
2.) He is a 3rd offense convicted liar after vowing twice that all of his other times are legit! Basically all of his high decimal records could be low decimal fakes of the +1s times.
3.) There will never be peace around if you keep a subset of his times on the ranks, as this enrages a lot of people (also some usually calm people).
4.) There should be an extra penalty for the goddamn dilettantish video editing. Control SA 411 without Obj C and a horrible sound cut at the end, wrong ending cinemas, full 00A speedrun with a fucking Frigate fade completion and level comment "haha I didn't even notice" after supposedly spending XXX hours on full game runs and whatnot ... seriously, if you choose to follow the footsteps of Satan, at least do it right!


Btw, if you guys would've been a bit less secretive with the confession of additional fakes and your council shit, I wouldn't have wasted my time with the splice search ::)
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Scrambler Fanny on July 06, 2013, 07:49:06 pm
100% truth from OHMSS!
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: SimThreat on July 06, 2013, 08:40:53 pm
If you want to keep a historical record of actual PR's, create your own website. This is a competitive rankings, not a little keepsake that you like to carry around and look at for nostalgic impact.

Also your point that you want to keep the rankings accurate is bullshit. If that were the case you would also have to include any FUTURE PR's that Henning or any other confirmed cheater legitimately achieves and is able to verify. If you did not include future legitimate records you would be violating the main value that makes you want to keep him there in the first place. You may as well not even ban him from submitting times if he can achieve them on stream.

You don't want Henning to have wasted his time? Then he shouldn't have fucked us over. It's not US that is causing his time to have been wasted because we are responding appropriately to his actions. His actions are the cause, the effect of which is his removal.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: SimThreat on July 06, 2013, 08:49:11 pm

That's hard to accept, and for guys like myself and Axel who hold roles as historians and proof moderator, it's not considered the best decision even if everyone else wants him gone.


This is why this community IS a joke. A small group of people have hijacked the boards/rankings because of their social status or IT skills and they don't give a fuck about the community, only themselves.

You're still my favourite though Jim :) However this kind of attitude does fuck over 99% of people and makes this a shit place to be.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Jimbo on July 06, 2013, 09:43:45 pm
1. I want the records he legitimately achieved to be documented forever for keepsake.
2. I don't give a fuck at all if Henning remains on the rankings, I only care about not erasing a part of Elite history (records-wise).
3. I do not personally know Henning, and have never spoken more than 5 words to him, his attitude is garbage.
4. I am not selfish in this pursuit, stop it.
5. I'm not mad or sad that Henning wasted his time, I'm mad/sad that WE wasted our time CONGRATULATING him and FOLLOWING his ascent into the "top 3".

Short and sweet post, <3 Karl
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: GoldenGreg007 on July 06, 2013, 11:29:09 pm
1. I want the records he legitimately achieved to be documented forever for keepsake.
2. I don't give a fuck at all if Henning remains on the rankings, I only care about not erasing a part of Elite history (records-wise).

Assuming Henning is completely removed from the rankings, any records that are not confirmed to be fakes I can simply mark in the WR database as "removed".  They won't show up on any of the pages, but we will still have a historical record of them.  Similar to Craig Makepeace and Gary Carney.  Ancient names, but a more recent example escapes me right now.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Scrambler Fanny on July 06, 2013, 11:41:46 pm
I see no problem with that Greg.  Jim, somehow you cannot see that you have nothing but self-driven motives to keep Henning written in to any piece of history and it's baffling.  I suppose that my stance in this battle focuses more on the ranks than the "pages of history."  So I wont argue too much about you, or anyone else, holding to Greg's solution, as it's a decent one.

Greg's solution is still a bit lenient in my opinion, but does offer some resolve.  For the "Historian" in you Jim (as you so adamantly proclaim) this gives you and anyone else (Greg, Axel, etc) more than enough access to anything that you want as far as Henning's times go and his history for those who STILL want to believe that he deserves any recognition, while still sufficient in that (I'm assuming Greg meant) Henning is removed from the ranks.

This STILL allows Henning to have credit for what he shouldn't, which I disagree with on principle, but I suppose that if I am to give any leeway, this sounds like the most sufficient course of action.

Solid suggestion, Wolldeneye!   :smokin:
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Shadow on July 07, 2013, 07:10:56 pm
Henning was given a period of grace to step forward with any other fakes or have all times removed.
He didn't.
Everything should be removed.

The greatest loss would be the Depot records, but since they would be backrolled away anyway with the proposed solution, we've really lost nothing of any great value if everything is gone.

t-e.n is a competition site. It will never be a complete historical site because there will always be some good players out there who never heard of it and never submitted times. The site is for us, not for the world. Take Henning away as if he'd never submitted times in the first place and all's well.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Infil on July 08, 2013, 01:41:11 am
Many people in the council want Henning permanently banned, and wanted it done months ago. There is debate and discussion taking place, but I don't know what it's about, or what possible case you could make for Henning.

He cheated. He's gone. He gets to keep absolutely nothing.

The end.

If the council takes extra long to deliberate on this, don't blame all of us.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: wheatrich on July 08, 2013, 02:57:55 am
The 47 depot 00 vid is still mega lol.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: wheatrich on July 08, 2013, 03:00:49 am
Many people in the council want Henning permanently banned, and wanted it done months ago. There is debate and discussion taking place, but I don't know what it's about, or what possible case you could make for Henning.

He cheated. He's gone. He gets to keep absolutely nothing.

The end.

If the council takes extra long to deliberate on this, don't blame all of us.

lol @ if.  It's already way over.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: RWG on July 08, 2013, 05:40:56 am
 I like splicing very very fine,

2010 Henning. Control 4:09.
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Carathorn on July 08, 2013, 06:25:38 am
I like splicing very very fine,

2010 Henning. Control 4:09.

insane sportsrap reference
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Softman25 on July 08, 2013, 07:31:05 am
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: Scrambler Fanny on July 08, 2013, 11:39:43 am
Many people in the council want Henning permanently banned, and wanted it done months ago. There is debate and discussion taking place, but I don't know what it's about, or what possible case you could make for Henning.

He cheated. He's gone. He gets to keep absolutely nothing.

The end.

If the council takes extra long to deliberate on this, don't blame all of us.

Literally made my day!  Having a post like this from a person like Ricky is so great!
Title: Re: Henning's Agent Run 18:51 is Fake
Post by: RWG on July 08, 2013, 01:07:23 pm
^ in fairness, when a council topic gets made, I always PM everyone in the council, and unlike many who don't care to post or check at all; Infil consistently posts his thoughts usually in a few hours.  He is a pretty decent council member.