The Elite Forum
The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: Illu on December 01, 2013, 09:31:58 am
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I just thought I'd get this over with and make a vid that shows clearly that the converter makes N64 games faster in real time since it's very easy to prove simply by running the ending cinema for example since it's a set event in the game so it should consistently run in the same time but it clearly runs faster with a PAL to NTSC converter.
http://www.twitch.tv/illudude/c/3325986 (http://www.twitch.tv/illudude/c/3325986)
^showing me running the ending Cinema for GE with regular NTSC and with a PAL to NTSC converter, converter is clearly faster, amazing Bond Nat kissing scene split.
http://www.twitch.tv/illudude/c/3326018 (http://www.twitch.tv/illudude/c/3326018)
Super Mario 64 ending cinema version of the same test with similar results ofcourse.
I think converters should be banned for PRs/WRs (RTA runs) since otherwise everyone needs to start using them who want to get really fast times.
The converter makes the game run faster, even the timer so it doesn't affect mission time, therefor I think converters are ok for MT runs.
Perfect Dark can't be run with a converter from what I know so I post this only on the GE forum.
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Yes, converters should be banned for RTA Runs.
Just saw the video a hour ago at the Past Broadcast. Yes, this shows converters are faster indeed.
NTSC Perfect Dark can be run on the Everdrive 64 on PAL systems and ofcourse vice versa.
Tbh, I can't test the difference since I own an NTSC Everdrive but it might be the same, I have no clue.
But yeah, converters should be banned from RTA runs.
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It's also very easy to hear the music being slightly more fast paced on converter if you listen closely.
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Conclusion: Marc to be banned from the-elite rankings. Entire timespage wiped. He needs to get a new set of GE/PD times.
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:-? :-?:-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :nesquik: :kappa: :-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-?
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Yeah, this converter difference is only important when it comes to real time speedruns and I assume Ryan is joking. One could even argue that it might be a tiny bit harder to play with a converter, since the game runs slightly faster. You've got more time to react the slower the game runs, which can make a difference though very small.
I've done a similar thing for TimeSplitters 2 on PS2 but with reverse results. I put in a disc called "Xploder HD" and forced the PS2 to display a PAL signal when playing the NTSC copy of the game, which made it run noticeably slower.
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lol if marc gets banned :nesquik: :pimp:
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it might be a tiny bit harder to play with a converter, since the game runs slightly faster. You've got more time to react the slower the game runs
I am truly the number 1.
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if it is actually harder to play with converter, then marc should not be removed really at all
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Converter gives more runs per house on average, therefore Marc has more opportunities to get the run, therefore has an unfair advantage :kappa:
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It's the same argument as MK64 NTSC vs PAL (more extreme case). NTSC gets more runs per hour, but runs at higher frame rate and gives you less reaction time. Marc would be a even better player without converter.
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Well the thing is, human's cannot react faster than roughly 0.10 seconds. In a 5:11 cutscene that the converter turns into 5:08, this is not a 0.1 second per second advantage. Therefore, a converter user's brain will not have to react any more quickly to play on the sped up converter.
N64 games "run" at 20 frames per second, and to turn 5:11 into 5:08 you need to lose 3 seconds over 5+ minutes. That's 60-79 frames dropped out of 311 seconds, or 60-79 frames dropped out of 6220 frames. So basically, a converter will drop 1 frame per 100. The time equivalent to this is 0.05 seconds (again, 0.10 is max human reaction) every 5 seconds. The gain is not neurologically noticeable by humans, so someone who plays on converter, like Marc, will have no more difficult in playing a run, but will have that run sped up. Therefore this is definitely an unfair advantage.
To contrast, in MK64, they simply divide a PAL time by 1.2XXX seconds to march an NTSC 1 second. You have 0.20 more to react EVERY SECOND. The human brain CAN react that fast, so MK64 PAL players actually do have a clear reaction time advantage, making the faster NTSC more difficult to play. But again, in GE, using a faster converter does not have a reaction time advantage since our brains can't react that fast, therefore playing on converter is no more difficult.
Clearly, Marc's full game runs should be removed.
A good test for the in game timer would be to just leave a level on, converted and not, for like 40+ minutes. Try quitting out at 40:00 exactly (use wsplit to help) and see what the ending time is. If the in game timer is sped up to, this is how we will tell. It seems you gain 1 frame every 100, so to gain a full second, 20 frames, you need a run of at least 2000 frames (100 seconds, 1:40.) Leave on a run for 40:00 and see what happens.
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Only the super shit n64 games run at 20 fps, such as ocarina of time lol!
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Keep in mind that I wrote a tiny bit harder. I just thought it'd be a good idea to also talk about the disadvantages for playing with a converter, however small it might be.
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This isn't SM64 where you, say, have no idea what frame wall kick you will get and have to react very quickly based on that. In GE you already anticipate things and there is very little stuff that requires immediate reaction if you are a world class player. You already know what to expect and how to react. It's like saying "wait for the drone explosion on Control SA before going to the guard" or "stare at the keycard guy on B2 Agent before killing him".
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I agree with you, I think the difference is negligible. That said, I'd still like to play X % slower rather than X % faster if I had the option.
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Ban Marc so i can get my times in top3, thanks
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hi
It's really easy to see the difference with using a converter with games that have a ingame timer, take a look at these tests I ran:
waverace time up 9:59.999 gametime 10:01.73 real time (JAP on NTSC US converter)
waverace time up 9:59.999 gametime 10:01.85 real time (JAP on NTSC US no converter)
waverace time up 9:59.999 gametime 9:49.86 real time (JAP on PAL converter)
Funny there was only difference when I was running my JAP trough PAL with a converter.
So conclusion I don't need to mod the cart for now, I'm ready to rock 100% JAP.
btw I think there are converters that save more time, pretty sure if you did this test with the converter that Marc has (and Eise too I think) the real time wouldn't reach more than 9:40ish while game timer would be at 10mins.
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You need to run japanese version itself as well to see if this 1.8 is consistant.
considering japanese games are ntsc and run at the same speed it should yield the same results on ntsc no converter.
If Using PAL converter on JAP adds 1s/minute, marcs 100% time should be backrolled to lose 62.5s correct? 1:03:34 from 1:02:32.
This is useful because I would be interested in actually beating that time, but 1:02 is out of reach for me. But if marc's converter is actually a bigger time saver, the time should be removed entirely from real time and moved into gametime category
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Someone should calculate his mission time and compare to ace's run and see what the real time difference is.
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Comparing mission time to real time is pretty worthless because Ace might have owned the menus more, there's lots of pauses and menus in a 100% run, and also Marcs run might be outdated so Ace could easily have used better menu strats or skipped cinemas faster in parts, people also choose to watch more cradle cinema sometimes and that kind of stuff.
Marc himself thinks JAP saves less time trough converter, but if that's the case then it makes it even more difficult to calculate, I mean different converters saving different amounts of time and also depending on which version, makes me think banning converters alltogether would be alot better. Except for just using the converter as something so you can fit the JAP cart onto NTSC-US console since it seems it doesn't change the speed the game runs at because it doesn't really have to convert anything.
I also did a quick check on the JAP version cinema from starting end cinema to JAMES BOND WILL RETURN text going offscreen on top and got these results.
jap on PAL with my converter 4:23
Marcs converter cinema on youtube 4:20
These were very rough quick test timings and I don't even have the decimals but it does seem like Marcs converter saves more than mine lol, also I can easily see his old Agent run of 21:58 (21:51 with new timing) being a 22:30ish run without his converter.
Too bad I couldn't find any JAP end cinema running without converter, should let that run at the end I guess, it could be good to have and also for proof of no converter use.
Remember though JAP needs to be compared to JAP because the end cinema is longer than on the NTSC-US version.
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So we are in agreement to get marcs converted times only on the in-game rankings then, because of extreme converter time gained, and no easy fix of finding an actual real time substitute?
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Yes even he agrees I think, he seemed surprised his run was still on the ranks.
Besides he can run jap legit now if he wants to go back and own his time.