The Elite Forum
The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: RWG on January 02, 2014, 04:10:22 am
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As you all know, a faked video by David Monteith was discovered recently: http://forums.the-elite.net/forum/index.php?topic=19282.0
The Elite Council deliberated on these matters and decided to outright ban Monteith from the elite rankings.
http://speedrunwiki.com/Elite_Proof_Policy
Elite Council[edit]
All other concerns and issues, anything not covered in this policy, any new abuses discovered, as well as the selection of proof moderators, will be made by the Elite Council.
Subsection i) Abuses of Games[edit]
Updated January 1, 2014
The elite council consists of Jon “Ngamer” Bearder, Derek Clark, Steve “Comeasur” Bryze, Ricky “Infil” Pusch, "Thingy”, Ryan “Your Eliteness” Dwyer, “Thiradell”, Axel Z, Hugo “Carathorn” van der Wolk, Bryan Bosshardt, Jim “Jimbo” Barrett, David “DK” Kovaz, Karl Jobst, and Ryan “Goose” White.
Subsection iii) Operation[edit]
The council will vote on any necessary matters and come to a consensus decision. The votes and decision will be made public to the elite after decision is made. When a decision is needed, there will be a 72 hour voting period. Any member of the council who does not cast a vote in that period will not have their vote count.
Subsection iv) Members (Addition, Removal)[edit]
If public opinion of a council member becomes negative, discussion will be held in public forum to remove or replace members of the council. Likewise, when public opinion of a member of the community is favorable for addition, they shall be instated to the council.
As per the proof policy, the decisions are to be made public after any major decision like this. Here are the council members and their input:
Thiradell - Full Ban
Carathorn - Full Ban
Infil - Full Ban
DK - Full Ban
Jimbo - Full Ban
The Flash - abstained
Clark - Wished for more deliberation (QUOTE: "Article "v" of rule 3 says that videos faked as "trolls" are exempt from council-mandated penalty, so if we go with a ban, we better damn well be certain he was lying about his intention to take it down")
Boss - Minimum according to Proof Policy Section 3 (backroll fakes and unprovens, investigate further)
Goose - Minimum according to Proof Policy Section 3 (backroll fakes and unprovens, investigate further)
Ngamer - ABSENT (did not post)
Come - ABSENT (did not post)
YE - ABSENT (did not post)
Some councilors were under the impression that discussion was still ongoing, but tonight action was taken to ban Monteith anyways.
This makes the vote 5 in favor of a full ban, 2 in favor of a backroll, 1 undecided/in process, and 4 absent or abstained
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Consensus agreement was also had to uphold Section 9 of the Proof Policy, stating that all "significant records" need to be in captured quality, or otherwise will count as having no proof exist for them.
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Again, to Section 13 iv)
If public opinion of a council member becomes negative, discussion will be held in public forum to remove or replace members of the council. Likewise, when public opinion of a member of the community is favorable for addition, they shall be instated to the council.
If anyone wishes to air grievances with any members of the council, now is the time and place to do it.
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I will be transparent and post a cliff's notes version of what I posted in the council topic.
Honesty and integrity of the rankings is really important to me and in my opinion should be the things the community values above all else. First and foremost, when someone cheats, it's a disrespect to the hobby itself and to all honest members of the community, so it's not just about Monteith, but it's about how the community treats its membership as a whole AND how the community is able to present itself to the speedrunning community at large (which is something many Eliters, including players like Goose, have invested lots of time into). Secondly, Monteith cannot claim ignorance towards any aspect: he knew of the proof policy changes and of the Henning situation, and he was pretty unrepentant and insulting towards those who called him out. Trying to subvert the proof policy by lying and seeing how long you can get away with it is a direct insult to everyone involved, so the act was both intentional and malicious.
We made a proof policy for exactly cases like this. After Henning's ban, the Elite rightly decided that cheating would not be tolerated in any capacity, and I don't see how this could classify as anything else. The community needs to show with actions (not just words) that it will not allow cheating in any capacity, so I support an immediate and permanent ban.
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Despite some doubt in my own mind as to whether Monteith's explanation is true or not, I do concur with the decision. Cheating should not be tolerated at all and a clear, consistent message has been given here. I am really sorry it had to come to this though.
If Monteith truly intended to reveal weaknesses in the system, he should have covered himself by talking it over with a couple of witnesses before posting the video.
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This decision goes against the conditions provided in the proof policy.
Monieth, I am prepared to act as your lawyer on a no win-no fee basis.
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I voted for a 1 year ban.
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Consensus agreement was also had to uphold Section 9 of the Proof Policy, stating that all "significant records" need to be in captured quality, or otherwise will count as having no proof exist for them.
This deserves an entire topic, a front page post, and a notice on the actual rankings site. Some players may still not be aware of this rule at all or only have a basic idea what it means.
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Job. Well. Done. Elite.
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Consensus agreement was also had to uphold Section 9 of the Proof Policy, stating that all "significant records" need to be in captured quality, or otherwise will count as having no proof exist for them.
This deserves an entire topic, a front page post, and a notice on the actual rankings site. Some players may still not be aware of this rule at all or only have a basic idea what it means.
Yeah, about that. I'm a casual (sporadic) speedrunner at best these days (was more involved with F-Zero and Rogue Squadron back in the day), but I seriously doubt I'll ever be motivated to buy a capture card. Recording to a VCR is about the best I'm likely to do.
However, since I'm not likely to put in the time for any "significant records", it's probably a moot point in my case!
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He was testing out our proof policy. Test successful :)
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Some councilors were under the impression that discussion was still ongoing, but tonight action was taken to ban Monteith anyways
That's a little concerning, especially given the fact that several council members hadn't posted at that point. Not sure what the time frame on these deliberations is though. I probably would have been part of the "Minimum according to Proof Policy Section 3" group, though I understand why others felt the full ban was necessary. Monteith has now been removed from the WR database as well.
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The decision to ban Monteith was a firm one, no doubt. You could make a case either way for his intentions in terms of how long he was planning on leaving the time up; I'm not sure that's even relevant as long as it's unclear.
Infil said something I thought was accurate: being on the ranks is not a right, it's a privilege. Henning recently violated the rules repeatedly and showed no willingness to make a complete confession of his fake times, so left with no options, we removed him. Monteith decided to test our policy in a different way, and was found out quickly. I think it's important to note that he was well aware of the punishment he thought he would be facing, and decided to put up the fake time anyway. To me, this says that the punishment he was prepared for isn't sufficient, so something more severe should be employed.
So far as the quick decision goes, there wasn't any discussion happening in the council topic, and most of the people who had spoken up supported a ban (Goose hadn't given any opinion prior to me removing Monteith). If the rest of the council shows up and disagrees with the decision, perhaps the ban could be reversed (hopefully he can be added back to the WR database as well). I don't anticipate this.
So far as testing the mods goes, awhile ago I was told I should get some help detecting fake times, and signed several people on (including Cara, Goose, Matis, and a few others). My eye for a fake run is not something I'd boast about, and I'd ask for continued support in verifying vids. I'll always confer with at least a couple people regardless; sniffing out fakes is tricky business.
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According to the wiki page I'm part of the elite council but I don't have access to the sub forum. I wouldn't have voted for a full ban.
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Your institution into the council was an issue that ran concurrently with this one, so I don't think you would've been able to vote here. We'll get you in the loop from here on.
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This is my post just after the Monteith ban in the council topic:
My whole idea with the push-the-ban movement that happened yesterday was to yank him off the rankings and work this out while he's on some sort of "suspension". If we decide he didn't do enough to invoke a full ban, we can add him back on the ranks with individual "approved" times that we collectively think are legit.
My hissy fit yesterday was a combination of being pissed off at playing Silo SA, not getting admin privileges (never will, even with vote), and still seeing Monteith's name on the rankings even though this topic has been up for a while. It's time to start throwing hammers and ask questions later, fuck cheaters. I've sunk too many legitimate hours into the games to be passed by cheats*
*stolen quote from Boss.