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The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: DYM on June 20, 2014, 02:42:20 pm

Title: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: DYM on June 20, 2014, 02:42:20 pm: With 1:00 I felt like a topic like this should happen. However unlike all previous ones I'm not ranking them from #20 to #1 since only dumb people would do that, but rather putting them in four separate tiers. Agent only for now, but SA and 00A soon to follow.

Update 1 - 31st August, 2014

Agent

Tier 4 (weak)

Archives Agent 0:16 - A weak world record. Standard for any new player who's serious about this game.

Dam 0:53 - 1 boost, a good gate and good strafing is all that's required. This level is a test of whether a new player's strafing is good or not. Easy 0.3s timesaver with 2.x makes it even easier too.

Runway 0:22 - With 1.2 this was really good since it needed clean strafing with 6/7 boosts, but given how short the level is + 2.x, it's not insane at all anymore.

Bunker 1 0:17 - Any new good player seems to be capable of this, just a matter of will power and dedication.

Surface 2 0:48 - Literally just having a good line, throwing a mine at the building and then having an insane warp. It's tight, but it's relatively easy and I can see many people getting this if they put in the time.

Tier 3 (decent)

Surface 1 1:02 - Strafing matters far more than the locks for 1:02 IMO. Great strafing + decent locks can get 1:02. I can see a lot of people getting this record.

Depot 0:25 - I can't imagine this being tied by that many people since it's really boring and waiting for an instant TS reaction after a good cinema + boost can be annoying, then the stairs turn has to be good too and you can't get trolled by the guards at the end.

Cradle 0:34 - A tight time that requires a flawless hut, good kill and lucky fast Trev. It's a short level, not too skill demanding and there's just so many other better times that I can't rank it any higher...

Egypt 0:45 - This time is great but I can see a lot of people tying it. It's just a matter of waiting out 2 great Baron deaths. Compared to SA and 00A, Agent is a lot easier because the 2nd Baron always dies too. The "new" GG room timesaver makes it a little easier in terms of speed as well. 0:44 would be mental, but I can't see who would be bothered to grind for that. I might be underrating this but I don't think it's that great at all anymore. It's underplayed. With the 0.3s timesaver this has become a pretty bad record, since the main trouble was bringing the low 46s to a 0:45.

Frigate 0:23 - A lot of people can fail 0:23s but the luck is pretty ridiculous and you need to be consistent at failing these. Luck and consistency is so important here that 0:22 would go straight to Tier 1 if it happened.

Tier 2 (good)

Streets 1:12 - Again this is ranked high because of the ridiculous luck needed. 1:12 strafing isn't that hard and could be done by many players but getting a GL on a run with 3:0 or so is pretty damn annoying. It's such a boring level too.

Jungle 0:50 - This time is only an untied because the other top players haven't grinded for this / don't have PAL. 0:51 NTSC with old strats in 2008 seems just as insane. 0:50 needs a pretty clutch run with good boostage and strafing, but it isn't super insane. Achievable in 20-50 hours by any top player IMO.

Caverns 1:01 - The biggest problem with this level (IMO) is waiting out a really clean start with a boost, and then not getting trolled by ANY random retard for the rest of the run. Seriously they jump around and roll in your way so much that the level becomes really tilting. Unless you're lucky you'll be duping a lot of irrel 1:02s.

Control 3:56 - 3:57 old strat would have been better but this is still good as it needs a fast 1st room, good crates area and a solid ending. It's a mysterious level but I can see quite a few people tying this record.

Facility 0:43 - A very skill demanding level makes this a tough record, but I feel like Silo definitely requires more action, better control of the player and more luck in general, so this has been pushed back to tier 2. If the bathroom door wasn't a problem for some people this could be tied by quite a few more people.

Tier 1 (insanity)

Silo 1:00 - While a 1:01 can afford minor mistakes throughout the run, 1:00 needs to be very clean overall. Not easy to get a metal-touching run. Guard RNG can be pretty troll and the ending isn't easy to clutch, especially with the random lag and nerves. A really sick record.

Statue 2:18 - I might be overrating this but I think it's a great time even with the "faster" route. Realistically I think only Marc and Boss could tie this. When you finally get a 2:18 pace run you need to get the FR too which could take like 15 fails, so unless you're insane + consistent at this level it's a pretty hopeless time.

Aztec 1:25 - Easily the most hellish level where guards troll you 99% of the time. The only Agent level where even surviving isn't easy. I could name 100 things that could go wrong and one little thing can destroy the entire run. An untied is possible here but 1:24 would really be a thing of beauty. 1:23 would be the best Agent record if it ever happens.

Bunker 2 0:23 - Insanely tight and I'm convinced this time isn't doable without a boost. Every little thing needs to be perfect including the warp and keycard kill. It's such a boring level too and could take 50+ hours and hundreds of 0:24 dupes for even a top player. Definitely the most insane 3-way tie in either game.

Train 0:58 - Epic record and probably human max for such a complex level even if it was doable in 2007. Train is the level that requires the most skill by far, and 0:58 is honestly about as good as this can get (0:57 is doable, but not very realistic). Even on a level where insane brakes and locks matter the most, getting a good ratio in the first few rooms and having low lag is crucial too. Can be tied but that wouldn't take away any value from this time. 1:00 NTSC is just as sick, if not better since consistency there is awful.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: RWG on June 20, 2014, 05:48:14 pm: I agree with your tiers here exactly, with only 1 difference. If Statue A 2:18 is Tier 1 (which I agree with) then Streets A 1:12 should be as well. The "Lockwood Equivalent" would be perhaps if a random like Bozon was going for 2:19 00A, but accidentally clicked Agent and got a 2:18 run completed. It *could* happen.

Streets 1:12 requires so much deep knowledge about the level. 9:0 doesn't even come close to guarantee a 1:12. Many would get 1:14 with that. Lockwood himself got many 1:14s with huge boost ratios before clutching a run. You have to realize that the odds of Lockwood getting 1:12 were so unlikely; Marc wouldn't have gotten it if no one put $180 bounty on it (more than his yearly salary) and if those two never got it, I might not have tried for it yet again, and the WR might still be 1:13.

I just think it's a very comparable record to Statue A 2:18 and should be in the same tier.

Unless you've intentionally set them apart into Tiers of 5 each, in which case I understand the separation. Though Bunker 2 23 might be overrated. I don't see it taking more than 50 hours for any of the Top 7.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Deep-Darkness on June 20, 2014, 07:49:56 pm: Quote from: BEFORE the metal on June 20, 2014, 02:42:20 pm
Egypt 0:45 - (...) The "new" GG room timesaver makes it a little easier in terms of speed as well. (...)
What's that timesaver? Sorry if this question seems noob, but I'm indeed a GE noob...
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: RWG on June 20, 2014, 09:16:30 pm: Your 2 cents here are pretty worthless Trouble.

Anyone in the Top 9 can get Archives 16 or Runway 22 repeatedly with no problem. Those same Top 9 struggle for hundreds of hours to get times like Aztec A 1:25, Control A 3:56; and of course Train A 0:58 might not be possible for more than 1-3 of that group. Train A 0:58s OBJECTIVELY harder than Archives A 0:16 whether you like it or not.

This list isn't "entitled" or "condescending." Everyone makes lists about the "best" whatever. Rolling Stone feels "entitled" to make a Top 500 albums list. Sportscentre feels entitled to make a Top 10 plays of the year list. Lists are cool.

You're hugely misinterpreting this thread (as well as a dozen that came before it) and it's pretty sad.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: SimThreat on June 20, 2014, 11:10:26 pm: Trouble, are you suggesting that the top players should change the way they talk just because there are people out there not as good as them? There are good and shit players at every game/sport/whatever.

For a good player, the easy records are exactly that, easy. They shouldn't need to think very carely about the words they use to describe things just because they are people out there that find it difficult.

By your reasoning, we shouldnt' say it's easy to walk, because there are people out there that can't walk. And we should say it's easy to see, because there are people out there that are blind.

P.S This is a WORLD RECORD topic. So yes, 1:02 is irrel. As if every other non WR time.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: SimThreat on June 20, 2014, 11:19:43 pm: Yes and I'm free to give my opinion of your opinion :)
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: SimThreat on June 20, 2014, 11:39:26 pm: I never said you did.
:kappa: :nesquik: :kappa: 8====D --3 :kappa:
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: DYM on June 21, 2014, 06:53:08 am: Secret Agent

Tier 4 (weak)

Streets 1:55 - The biggest problem is 1.2 was taking the low 156s down to a 155, but 2.x helps with that. Clean strafing and a good boost ratio is pretty much only what's required, although that can be pretty annoying to get especially on SA. I can picture a mid 1:55 easily, but saving around .5 more sounds pretty tough. 1:54 would skip two tiers or so.

Archives 0:54 - While this record is actually very good and requires skill and control of Bond, it just doesn't stand out compared to the other SA WRs.

Cradle 0:35 - This is a pretty solid time but once again, there are just so many other better SA WRs. With the hut strat 0:35 is not that difficult at all and it's not as tight as 0:34 Agent. Just requires patience to get an early nade. I can see a lot of people getting this within 20 hours, making it somewhat weak. Underplayed too since most people were desparate for the 00A untied instead, but 00A is terrible compared to SA.

Surface 2 0:49 - Not a very tolerable level for many players and while the speed for this is easier than that for 0:48 on Agent, the strat is harder to execute - a fast nade guard kill, a nade comms throw and a mine throw in right strafe is not easy at all. Still ranked bad because it's kinda straightforward and could be tied by a handful of players.

Depot 0:40 - The only problem with this level is mastering 2.x. 0:40 is worse than 0:43 in 1.2 in terms of speed (reminder that 0:43 was achieved in 2005) and the obj A consistency is far better with 2.x since you don't need to shoot the computer screen. 0:39 would be beautiful and should happen eventually. It would be just as good as 0:42 with 1.2.

Tier 3 (decent)

Surface 1 1:48 - Just requires decent strafing and patience. Fast huts and an instant hole entry isn't that difficult to do. This level is really fun to play as well and 1:48 is easily replicable by the best players. Almost tier-4 worthy.

Egypt 0:45 - Not that great since the level is pretty much just 3 Baron shots, nothing else. Better than Agent 0:45 though because the 2nd Baron is slightly harder and a headshot on the 3rd Baron is pretty tricky. Then you need 2/3 Barons to have the best death which sucks, so this time could take a while depending on your luck and consistency.

Runway 0:22 - I don't know where to rank this. I was originally going to put it in Tier 4 but all of Goose, Karl and I have spent a good amount of time on it and none of us even tied it. Nade boosts on SA are extremely random and you die like 90% of the time. Then you need to get the battery throw and STILL hope you don't get a flat 0:23. A guard boost really helps but it isn't that common unfortunately. Just seems like you can get lucky like Mouser did, or spend forever and eventually get bored of the level.

Statue 2:18 - Same as Agent but the Trevshot is way easier and boosts aren't that uncommon. Super boring level though and it could take 10-15 fails before finally getting an FR, so this is ranked pretty well.

Bunker 1 0:21 - A level which is a good test of your aim and consistency with the cameras. The main room is ridiculous since you can get backed and shot around to hell. The 4th cam has some RNG too which kinda sucks. The difference between 0:20 and 0:21 is so insane though that 0:20 would probably be a top 3 SA time.

Tier 2 (good)

Facility 0:52 - This time isn't ranked that high because even a flat 45 pace run could get 0:52 and quite a few players are capable of that speed on SA. Getting a good Doak and Trev on a fast run can take a while though, making it a good time.

Aztec 1:35 - I underestimated this record considerably when I was going for it. You can get trolled in several places. Regardless of the strat you use it's a pretty good time. With running and getting the BA this level is laggy and getting a perfect run is nigh impossible. With no running + no BA living is difficult and the speed isn't that easy either. With the Agent strat, good luck clutching a run. 1:33/1:34 will eventually happen but that doesn't make 1:35 bad at all.

Frigate 1:00 - A boring grind and ridiculous luck makes this a top 10 SA WR. 1:00 fails are not too difficult but actually completing a run seems insane. Even a top player could spend forever to tie this.

Silo 1:09 - There's a huge difference between a 1:09 and 1:10/1:11. The speed is pretty bad but handling the lag and minimizing time losses is extremely difficult. The run pretty much starts once you enter the 3rd room and from there onwards the level is just hell to play. The crate hall is absolutely ridiculous too. 1:08 is where this record should be, and 1:07 would be complete insanity.

Caverns 1:14 - I'm not convinced this record is insane enough to be placed in tier 1 since the speed isn't insane. The B area is a lot easier now so it's just a matter of nailing the throw and hoping the scientists don't die. 1:12/1:13 would be ridiculous.

Tier 1 (insanity)

Jungle 0:53 - Ahead of its time and still a great record today. 0:51/0:52 on Agent requires a clean run so to only lose a second or two to stop at Xenia, destroy the ammo dump and not do 1-2 GL boosts makes it a good time. Even a good boost ratio is required for this time. I don't think it stands out as much as the other 4 in this tier, but it's better than all the other records.

Control 4:04 - The fact that only 3-4 players can get this record as of now makes it one of the best SA WRs. There is just so much skill needed to get a WR pace first room. Then you need a fast crate area and a good glass too.

Dam 1:16 - Absolutely ridiculous time. Dumb RNG like fast PP7 bullets for the alarms and low lag is crucial. Perfect strafing and a boost or two is needed as well. It's not even fun to play to play for 1:16.

Bunker 2 0:44 - 0:44 is probably humanly maxed and on a level like this where guards are all over the place and lag is ubiquitous, that makes it a sick WR. The level isn't too bad till the 3rd cam but after that nailing 3 more cameras fast with guards everywhere is extremely tough.

Train 1:23 - Might remain untied forever. I can see a few people (Clemens, me, Luke, etc.) getting 1:24 in a reasonable amount of time but saving another second? You need to be even more insane at the brakes, have low lag and preferrably get a couple of boosts. Run's over if you have just a tad more lag than usual or have a guard block your way for more than a tenth or two.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: DYM on June 21, 2014, 07:03:29 am: 1:12 is probably between tier 2 and tier 1. I just see it being tied by ~5 more players if they grinded it for 100-200 hours, while the same wouldn't apply for 2:18 because not many people are capable of getting 218 speeds on Agent. They just suck at Val strafing, strafing throughout the whole level and the Trevshot. Then you need that like 10 times because of the dumb FR. Maybe the level is underplayed, dunno.

0:23 is actually really insane, but you're right it might be overrated a little. I didn't spend THAT much time on it (neither did Clemens or Karl I think) but all of my good 0:24s still seemed way off.

If you are offended by this topic then I truly pity you. I'm ranking high-quality WRs that have taken thousands of hours of effort by dozens of players. I'm not saying Caverns 1:02 is crap but relative to 1:01 it is pretty shitty and irrelevant.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: ManceGaydar on June 21, 2014, 09:00:59 am: You surely must be capable of understanding this (all of you; Karl, Ace, Goose). When a new player joins the community, grinds out and eventually achieves a time like 1:02 (which is a great time if you're not playing the game at the highest possible standard) and you describe it as "irrelevant", it's just absurdly condescending and rude as well as detrimental to the growth of GE speedrunning. Why is it so hard to write in a way that's not completely fucking laced with arrogance?

I get that you've grinded this game for millions of hours and on your level this does give you the right to consider certain times as irrelevant, but just use some tact. Do it for the good of the realm.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: SimThreat on June 21, 2014, 09:12:56 am: There is no evidence to suggest that Ace's post is detrimental to speedrunning.

Why is it so hard not to take every post so personally? We aren't running a daycare here, and if you really are getting so upset because the worlds best finds a non-wr time irrel then this is the least of your concerns.

You're suggesting that the best should cater to the lesser players, but if you actually cared about the community you would cater to the best, because these players set the bar and inspire others.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: DYM on June 21, 2014, 11:38:55 am: Updated 31st August, 2014

00 Agent

Tier 4 (weak)

Streets 1:55 - Same as SA pretty much, although 00A might be a tad easier given how stronger the boosts are.

Archives 0:54 - Again, same as SA if not easier due to more effective boosts.

Depot 0:47 - No different than a low 0:50 on 00 Agent with 1.2 (yes, it's not even 0:49 with 1.2 speed), just requires 2.x mastery. Just like SA the obj A consistency is much better too. The trainshot is arguably harder with the massive lag and 2.x on 00A but overall this is a pretty weak WR.

Statue 2:18 - Same as SA. Not ranked as high because there are many better 00A WRs.

Runway 0:35 - I feel like this time isn't as insane as we all thought after seeing Karl's tutorial (don't worry bro I will eventually go for this record :)). It just requires good understanding of the level (what lines to take, when to prime and release nades, etc). Really the only part of the level is the 3rd drone and battery throw, nothing else it seems.

Tier 3 (decent)

Egypt 0:45 - Same as SA.

Cradle 0:35 - A really good time and 00A is far worse than SA. Hut is more troll and Trev is a bit harder to kill. It's such a boring and intolerable level too.

Surface 1 1:48 - Far better than SA since you get backed from the 1st hut like 90% of the time, and then getting a clean run after that with a good boost ratio and not dying isn't easy. With the behind the hut strat you improve consistency by a ton, but losing about .4 makes it a lot harder to get 1:48 speed. Not that insane with 2.x, but again operating 2 controllers on this at a WR level is a bit challenging.

Bunker 1 1:02 - I can see a handful of people tying this record if they put in the time. It's just a low 1:07 with Boris running. 1:01 with Boris running into the room should happen (clear from my 1:01 fail, which I believe also had a back) but given how retarded and troll the guards and Boris himself can be, it's still a very nice time.

Silo 1:21 - If I got 1:21 on one of my standard "solid 1:21 pace" runs this would have been tier 2, but it just really sucks seeing that terrible ending. My run shows that we obviously need to open the crate hall door ourselves for records on this level. 1:19 would be pretty insane, maybe tier 1, while 1:20 would be a solid tier 2. This time kinda feels about as equal as Aztec 1:39.

Aztec 1:39 - This is a pretty good WR but likely the worst untied on the rankings. 1:39 on PAL should have happened in 2008. It's just like SA except not as troll and you can get the BA so living isn't a big problem. Henrik's new alternative Agent strat is extremely ideal for this and should get the WR down to 1:36/1:37.

Tier 2 (good)

Surface 2 1:25 - A lot of people say this is underrated and I don't disagree. It's so boring waiting for a nade and then nailing the 1st cam, but that's only when the run starts. The 3rd + 4th cam have to be fast too. A handful of players can get it though since it doesn't require insane skill and action throughout the whole run.

Caverns 1:31 - The run only starts from the B area, which isn't that hard to do fast SA style on JP. It's moreorless about not getting backed to hell from there all the way to the very end, which can be extremely frustrating and take forever.

Frigate 1:05 - This is ranked so high just because of the ridiculous luck you need. I don't remember the odds exactly for WR hostages but it's extremely low. Legit 1:05 fails are quite hard to get and you need to be extremely consistent with failing them. Could take like 100 hours to get tie/beat this time. 1:04 would be surreal.

Jungle 0:54 - A great time and a masterful run, but this is where the WR should be. The beginning (till bridge) isn't difficult to do, but getting a good Xenia kill and having a good ending could take ages. Getting backed by the crate guards at the end isn't rare either.

Facility 0:52 - Much better than SA since you have to deal with 1) lower ammo, which is problematic for the open door strat so you need to PP7 the console guard in the head 2) boosts that push you too much 3) more troll guards in general. It's not that bad if you use the strat I used for the beginning on my 00A 0:52. The feeling of getting 0:52 00A is way better than having an SA 0:52 which is awesome. I would say this record is approximately equal with Jungle 0:54, and B2 0:54 is just a little better than both.

Tier 1 (insanity)

Bunker 2 0:54 - A level where there's so much action and so much needs to go right. Up to the first safe key guard the level isn't that bad, but getting everything after is hard, most noteably the clipboard and last cam. Even though 0:53 speed is possible 0:54 is quite tight, heaps better than 0:55 speed IMO. If you get backed at the ending (which happens so often) it's likely your 0:54 became a 0:55 right there.

Train 1:49 - A very skill intensive level with tons of troll guards. This is equivalent to 1:24 pace on SA or 1:00 on Agent which is pretty hard for 00 Agent. The 2nd car is really annoying to get past too. Requires great control of the player and clutchness to nail the locks.

Control 4:05 - Again, this is pretty similar to SA 4:04. Getting a fast first room requires a high skill level, and because of JP the crate area is 10x worse. There is just so much more to do just before the alarm goes off now as well, and living is problematic with the glass strat too.

Dam 1:55 - This is obviously one of the best 00A records because clutching an insane basement on a run with a good beginning is really hard. I can see very few people tying this, and that could take ages. Getting 7/8 boosts is tough, and then with those nerves you still need to have super fast last 2 alarms. Great WR.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Aztec Exemplar on June 21, 2014, 12:52:04 pm: Was gonna try for B1 102 but it's only tier 3. :nesquik:
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: RWG on June 21, 2014, 03:08:56 pm: This thread is for comparison of WRs. Not "1 second off the WR." If someone wants to make that list they can feel free.

Ace's lists are the best possibly ever made ranking GE strengths. They've been attempted before but are always tricky to do. Yet the thread is tarnished by this noobery. Trouble, you're a good dude in Twitch chat and Caverns 1:02 was VERY impressive to us all from such a new player (did you not hear us give it praises in the podcast?) but I'm not sure you are cut out for the elite. You take everything way too personally. This thread isn't about you. It's about the top GE players who get the top WRs. You are the one being selfish and rude here by trying to make this topic about yourself.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Deep-Darkness on June 21, 2014, 08:08:57 pm: Quote from: TroubleClef92 on June 21, 2014, 05:25:38 pm
(...)
Just giving my opinion, which might be critizised, but I don't think you have to apologize at all, Trouble. You simply read a text and interpreted it the same way any non top eliter could have done it, so you felt bad because of it being rude. It's more than understandable that point of view. I'm not sure if this is the exact case, but I can see you thinking that that was your best PR so far, and that it had been hard to get, so you felt molested when you saw someone calling the time irrel. Of course, this entire topic talks about WRs, but I see your point. I don't think it is your fault if you minunderstood the wording. You're completely free to ask and add your opinions, and they should be welcome and answered.

Goose, I disagree with your last post. Before asking someone to understand your point of view, you should first try to understand his. The fact that he misunderstood it and he apologized is enough to understand his post. There's no point to say he was selfish, but much less to say he was rude, because he wasn't. You have been rude with that post in my opinion.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: .. on August 30, 2014, 08:10:39 pm: Ace,

Since we're using this for the Fantasy league, I went ahead and compiled the info into our Google docs sheet for easier use. We'll need you to get it up to date before the league starts going though! If you want edit access just PM me your gmail or you should be able to leave comments on the sheet or just post here if you want me to shuffle things around for you. Here's the link to the doc: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iabVzyx6BDStf-BQ6ObDac9FlJpP9RysyHFC_90c4h8/edit?usp=sharing
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: DYM on August 31, 2014, 02:59:34 am: A/00A done, SA needs to be updated. If I don't end up making a proper list then it's probably this:

Tier 1 - 116/44/123

Tier 2 - 404/154/108/100/53 (404 just isn't as insane as the T1 records, and 53 has become a bit weaker because of the new timesavers honestly)

Tier 3 - 52/134/114

Tier 4 - 45/22/218/21

Tier 5 - 54/40/35/49/148

SA could even have more tiers, but it would make it more complicated and this is fairly accurate anyway.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Jimbo on September 17, 2014, 01:47:36 pm: Just here to say that 1:02 belongs in tier 4.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Shadow on September 17, 2014, 03:29:13 pm: Ace:
9 Tier 1 records (3 A, 3 SA, 3 00A)
10 Tier 2 records (4 A, 3 SA, 3 00A)
13 Tier 3 records (5 A, 3 SA, 5 00A)
12 Tier 4 records (5 A, 4 SA, 3 00A)

Clemens:
1 Tier 1 records (1 SA)
2 Tier 2 records (1 A, 1 00A)
10 Tier 3 records (5 A, 3 SA, 2 00A)
10 Tier 4 records (5 A, 3 SA, 2 00A)

Marc:
3 Tier 1 records (2 A, 2 SA, 1 00A)
5 Tier 2 records (3 A, 1 SA, 1 00A)
9 Tier 3 records (4 A, 3 SA, 2 00A)
8 Tier 4 records (4 A, 1 SA, 3 00A)

Luke:
0 Tier 1 records
4 Tier 2 records (2 A, 2 SA)
8 Tier 3 records (4 A, 3 SA, 1 00A)
9 Tier 4 records (5 A, 2 SA, 2 00A)

Boss:
0 Tier 1 records
1 Tier 2 records (1 SA)
5 Tier 3 records (4 A, 1 SA)
9 Tier 4 records (5 A, 1 SA, 3 00A)

Karl:
1 Tier 1 records (1 A)
0 Tier 2 records
5 Tier 3 records (4 A, 1 00A)
10 Tier 4 records (5 A, 2 SA, 3 00A)

Goose:
1 Tier 1 records (1 SA)
1 Tier 2 records (1 A)
5 Tier 3 records (3 A, 1 SA, 1 00A)
7 Tier 4 records (5 A, 1 SA, 1 00A)

Goose's stats assume Streets SA is now Tier 1 instead of 4, though perhaps it's a 2.

Applying a basic scoring system (4 points for Tier 1, 3 for Tier 2 and so on) gives:

1. Ace: 104
2. Marc: 53
3. Clemens: 40
4. Luke: 37
5. Karl: 24
5. Goose: 24
7. Boss: 22
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Boss on September 17, 2014, 05:51:29 pm: 154 is a tier 2 probably.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Spec on September 17, 2014, 08:17:59 pm: Just a noob suggestion, but why not make one single list for all 60 levels? And without some constant "X levels per tier". Separating by the in-game difficulty level seems arbitrary...
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Boss on February 28, 2015, 03:36:45 am: I thought I would branch off Ace's tiers with a more modern list. I need opinions from top players with these, especially with the tier 1-3 times. I added a 5th tier for the basic WRs that all serious GE runners have to get early in their careers.

   Agent   Secret Agent   00 Agent
0:53 Tier 5   1:16 Tier 1   1:55 Tier 1   Dam
0:43 Tier 2   0:52 Tier 3   0:52 Tier 2   Facility
0:22 Tier 5   0:22 Tier 4   0:35 Tier 4   Runway
1:02 Tier 4   1:48 Tier 3   1:48 Tier 2   Surface 1
0:17 Tier 5   0:21 Tier 3   1:02 Tier 3   Bunker 1
1:00 Tier 1   1:08 Tier 2   1:21 Tier 2   Silo
0:23 Tier 4   1:00 Tier 2   1:05 Tier 2   Frigate
0:48 Tier 5   0:49 Tier 4   1:25 Tier 2   Surface 2
0:23 Tier 2   0:44 Tier 1   0:54 Tier 1   Bunker 2
2:18 Tier 2   2:18 Tier 3   2:18 Tier 3   Statue
0:16 Tier 5   0:54 Tier 4   0:54 Tier 4   Archives
1:12 Tier 2   1:54 Tier 2   1:55 Tier 4   Streets
0:25 Tier 4   0:40 Tier 4   0:47 Tier 4   Depot
0:58 Tier 1   1:23 Tier 1   1:49 Tier 1   Train
0:50 Tier 3   0:53 Tier 3   0:54 Tier 3   Jungle
3:56 Tier 3   4:04 Tier 1   4:05 Tier 1   Control
1:01 Tier 3   1:13 Tier 2   1:31 Tier 2   Caverns
0:34 Tier 4   0:35 Tier 4   0:35 Tier 3   Cradle
1:25 Tier 1   1:34 Tier 2   1:39 Tier 2   Aztec
0:45 Tier 4   0:45 Tier 4   0:45 Tier 4   Egyptian

Tier 1 - Insane      11
Tier 2 - Good      16
Tier 3 - Decent      12
Tier 4 - Weak      16
Tier 5 - n00b      5
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Aztec Exemplar on February 28, 2015, 07:17:47 am: Haven't played half of these levels but S1 00 1:48 seems overranked and Control 3:56 seems underranked.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Time was untied when set. on February 28, 2015, 01:18:11 pm: lol s1 sa 148 should be tier 4 or 5. its cake. control 356 is tier 2 at worst.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: flukey lukey on February 28, 2015, 04:41:45 pm: lol tier 5..
it's a step up from all the other tier 4 SA times so tier 3 makes sense.
I would support tier 3 for 00 even thoufg I think it's again a step up from SA. Phil "caked" it because he was in his S1 prime and hit an awesome run fairly early on, and clutched it. it seems like with bad rng you could be stuck there for a whole though, unlike SA.

Jungle 50 should go tier 2, Streets 112 probably tier 3.

I'm tempted to put 218 agent at tier 1 because it's more insane than all other tier 2s on agent.
And I am also in favor of putting control 356 at tier 2.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Aztec Exemplar on February 28, 2015, 09:11:20 pm: Quote from: I remember when Boss got bunker 2 sa 48 as a UWR on February 28, 2015, 01:18:11 pm
lol s1 sa 148 should be tier 4 or 5. its cake. control 356 is tier 2 at worst.

S1 SA 1:48 definitely not tier 5, even 1:49 is prolly not even tier 5 lol. Just because you guys can cake it, it doesn't make it tier 5. Ace and Luke can cake 43s so let's make that tier 4. 1:48 is also a lot better than some of the tier 4s like 1:55 and 0:54. Dunno, maybe it's tier 4.

Control 3:56 at tier 2 sounds good though.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: RWG on February 28, 2015, 09:58:10 pm: INCENTIVE: $150 to Clemens if he can dupe a Surface 1 SA 1:48 within 1 week of this post.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: deletedprofile.u on February 28, 2015, 10:20:50 pm: OH SNAP. ^

Also, someone should create a Strength of WRs 2015 topic, or just retitle this one and make it rel.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Aztec Exemplar on February 28, 2015, 10:30:19 pm: Make a top 10 council where they decide on tiers for the levels that aren't obvious.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Time was untied when set. on February 28, 2015, 10:31:17 pm: I guess in retrospect i was being too critical. 148 is at the worst a high end tier 4. Having it same tier as control 356 is utter blasphemy, though. I came close to getting 2 148s in a row before, no way 2 356s in a row would ever be doable lol.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Illu on March 01, 2015, 12:48:23 am: lolololol jungle 50 tier 3, should be tier 5 at best lololololol... just kidding :kappa:
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: RWG on March 01, 2015, 01:17:12 am: maybe

JUST MAYBE

a Tier 4 SA WR is harder than a Tier 3 A WR. And a Tier 2 A record is better than a Tier 2 SA record.

MABYE, JUST POSSIBLY, PERHAPS IN SOME REALM OF EXISTENCE

the tiers aren't transient between difficulties

★　　★ ° ☾ ☆ ¸. ¸ 　★　 :.　 . • ○ ° ★　 .　 *　.　.　　¸ .　　 ° 　¸. * ● ¸ .　...somewhere　　　° ☾ ° 　¸. ● ¸ .　　★　° :.　 . • ° 　 .　 *　:.　.in a parallel universe* ● ¸ 　　　　° ☾ °☆ 　. * ¸.　　　★　★ ° . .　　　　.　☾ °☆ 　. * ● ¸ ..Clemens...° ☾　★ °● ¸ .　　　★　° :.　 . • ○ ° ★　 .　 * isn't washed and irrel ☾　★ °● ¸ .　　　★　
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: flukey lukey on March 01, 2015, 01:28:45 am: the 2 in a row logic doesn't make sense.

there's more chance of getting 2 fac 43s in a row than 2 Egypt 45s in a row.

doesn't mean that 43 is weaker than 45
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Spec on March 01, 2015, 02:19:19 am: There's a higher chance that a 148-player gets two 148s in a row than two duel 9s.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Boss on March 01, 2015, 02:56:10 am: I added decimals to tiers that are most in question. S1 00A moved down to tier 3, and Control 3:56 moved up to tier 2. After having played a little Cradle 00A on JAP, I feel the nade odds aren't that much worse if at all with SA English auto aim, so that tier now is in question.

Agent   Secret Agent   00 Agent
0:53 Tier 5   1:16 Tier 1   1:55 Tier 1   Dam
0:43 Tier 2   0:52 Tier 3   0:52 Tier 2   Facility
0:22 Tier 5   0:22 Tier 4   0:35 Tier 4   Runway
1:02 Tier 4   1:48 Tier 3.5   1:48 Tier 3   Surface 1
0:17 Tier 5   0:21 Tier 3   1:02 Tier 3   Bunker 1
1:00 Tier 1   1:08 Tier 2   1:21 Tier 2   Silo
0:23 Tier 4   1:00 Tier 2   1:05 Tier 2   Frigate
0:48 Tier 5   0:49 Tier 4   1:25 Tier 2   Surface 2
0:23 Tier 2   0:44 Tier 1   0:54 Tier 1   Bunker 2
2:18 Tier 1.5   2:18 Tier 3   2:18 Tier 3   Statue
0:16 Tier 5   0:54 Tier 4   0:54 Tier 4   Archives
1:12 Tier 2.5   1:54 Tier 2   1:55 Tier 4   Streets
0:25 Tier 4   0:40 Tier 4   0:47 Tier 4   Depot
0:58 Tier 1   1:23 Tier 1   1:49 Tier 1   Train
0:50 Tier 2.5   0:53 Tier 3   0:54 Tier 3   Jungle
3:56 Tier 2   4:04 Tier 1   4:05 Tier 1   Control
1:01 Tier 3   1:13 Tier 2   1:31 Tier 2   Caverns
0:34 Tier 4   0:35 Tier 4   0:35 Tier 3.5   Cradle
1:25 Tier 1   1:34 Tier 2   1:39 Tier 2   Aztec
0:45 Tier 4   0:45 Tier 4   0:45 Tier 4   Egyptian

Tier 1 - Insane      12
Tier 2 - Good      16
Tier 3 - Decent      11
Tier 4 - Weak      16
Tier 5 - n00b      5
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: flukey lukey on March 01, 2015, 03:12:24 am: :-X

no decimals pls
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Time was untied when set. on March 01, 2015, 06:07:44 am: Yeah but i think anyone can agree 356 is a fuckton harder than 148. I was simply pointing out the level of luck required is far, far lower. Lower luck definitely has to count for WR strength. If it didnt, frigates would all be tier 5's.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: OHMSS on March 01, 2015, 03:28:19 pm: Quote from: Boss on March 01, 2015, 02:56:10 am
Tier 4 - Weak 16
Tier 5 - n00b 5

This condescension is Tier 4.93 :kappa: Using "basic", "common", "straightforward", "easy" would be a lot more diplomatic. Also saying "Arch 54 is a basic WR" sounds more right than "Arch 54 is a weak WR" when the time is reasonably maxed (so how can it be weak?).

Only thing I can add is that tier 3 indeed sounds a bit low for Jungle 50. Ace's run was flawless with 8:0 and Illu had an absolutely insane 9:0 ratio (and I think for both runs, every single boost was necessary). Inkosi didn't get it and he is really perfect on Jungle, running a 51 every other minute and almost never missing a drone. Sure, it's not a OCB-heavy level, but still seems very hard to complete a 50, probably similar to Streets 112 luck.
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: RWG on March 01, 2015, 06:16:57 pm: rather than decimals, we're just better naming the tiers

Tier The First Four
Tier Still Easy WRs
Tier Showing Improvement at the Game
Tier Showing Top 10 Potential
Tier Solidified Place in Top 10
Top Players Only WR
Tier Not Top 10 but Grinded the Insane WR
Top 10 Career Player's Great WR
The Creme de la Creme
Ace, Clem or Marc only
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: Boss on March 01, 2015, 10:06:18 pm: I actually agree with goose here. It seems like the tiers kinda follow this general logic:

Tier 1:Ace/Clemens/Marc only
Tier 2:Top 10 grind a level long enough can get
Tier 3:Don't know how to rank tier
Tier 4:Wait and clutch but relatively basic level
Tier 5:Beginner
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: DYM on March 02, 2015, 02:13:39 am: I propose the tiers be named;

1. tier mate
2. tier nesquik
3. tier Kappa
4. tier irrel
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: flukey lukey on March 02, 2015, 03:42:57 am: Tier 2:Top 10 (minus Jimbo) grind a level long enough can get :nesquik:
Title: Re: *** Strength of WRs 2014 Topic ***
Post by: speedruntrainer on March 02, 2015, 04:19:00 am: Top 10 (minus Jimbo).

:nesquik: ?