The Elite Forum
The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: Hypnotoad on June 21, 2014, 12:31:51 pm
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Hey, I've been following the-elite ever since AGDQ, I was aware of it existing many years ago but had assumed it died out like many other relics of the early 2000s. When people hyped it on AGDQ I visited the site and started following a bunch of the twitch streams, some of you may recognize me from twitch chat and such. I even recently tried speedrunning GE myself a month or so ago (I used to do this in the nineties against some friends as a kid, I thought I was amazing but I recently found my cartridge and it turns out my personal records sucked and wouldn't earn any points), but I promptly gave up after realizing I simply cannot get used to the controls (especially 1.2). While I still follow developments in this community and the competition when I can, I don't pay constant attention to this community 24/7 and am not truly fully immersed in the goldeneye speedrunning scene. As such there are a few things that I'm still a bit unclear on or simply confused about, so I thought I'd ask some questions, hope you don't mind. :v
1.) Where is the documentation on how the points system works exactly?
I'm pretty sure I've sussed out how the points system works but I'm not 100% on it, I'm also thinking of starting a community like this for another game so proper documentation would help with explaining to others what exactly determines how much points you get for a time.
2.) Are the time rankings considered irrelevant, is it all about the point rankings? If so how come? And what about the "World Record Leaders" ranking?
3.) Are the "Rare Ranks" considered irrelevant also?
4.) There seems to be a lot of tension between the admins and the general users/speedrunners of this forum, is there any particular reason for this?
5.) Some proof policy questions:
What's up with the 80 point threshold, why don't all times that earn points require proof?
How can you ensure robustness with some of the requirements? Videos usually just show the gameplay and not the whole setup, so how can you determine if someone is using an "unacceptable controller" for instance if the controller isn't shown in the video, especially if it's only giving a very subtle undetectable advantage? The same applies to gamesharks and other "hacks" (e.g. cartridge or console modifications) which may only alter the gameplay subtly, are you able to ensure the proof requirements are robust to these kinds of possibilities?
Why did it take so long (until January 1, 2014 apparently) for acceptable video quality to be a requirement?
6.) I understand the difference (I think) between Jap and NTSC carts, but I haven't found a good explanation on the differences (advantages and disadvantages) of PAL compared to NTSC.
7.) What's up with people like Goose? Don't get me wrong, I think he's hilarious, he's very charismatic and he's probably my favorite streamer to watch and he's doubtless done a lot to promote the scene and draw many more people in. However, he seems like a huge troll on the forums, in other communities people would get quickly get banned for constantly making posts like Goose, I'm just curious how he gets away with it; is he serious or is he just joking and not to be taken seriously at all hence why he gets away with it? Or does everyone just not care, or is he perhaps too important?
8.) Why don't you guys use irc like other good gaming communities? AIM sucks balls.
9.) What happened to Marc? I keep hearing it mentioned a lot about him joining a cult and such, sounds like an interesting story.
10.) Can you guys stop constantly changing your names? It's hard to tell who anyone is half the time. :v
You don't have to answer all these questions, just thought I'd cram in as many as possible while I can. There will be more to come, there were a bunch more I thought of but they escape me at this time.
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Hello and welcome to the boards.
1.) The point system is fairly obvious. For a WR you score 100 points. For a time ranked 2nd you get 97 points and a time ranked 3rd 95 points. 4th is 94 points, 5th is 93 points etc etc all the way down to 97th which scores 1 point. Anything ranked 98th or worse is not worth any points.
2.) While the time ranks is interesting, it is considered comparatively irrelevant by the majority of people. Back in the good old days, when players joined with a full set of times, it meant more. Nowadays people are more proud of N/As than 10-15 years ago.
3.) Not exactly irrel, but apparently something people don't care about, especially not rare time ranks.
4.) No. :kappa: :kappa:
5.) The answer is trust. Something this community is lacking, unfortunately. You can't Proof Call every submitted time that is worth points. Well you could, but everyone would be upset if we did because people don't like to produce videos of times they might improve later. Many cba to make videos of times worth well under 80 points. I for one would like a ranking with as many vids as possible.
6.) For GE: the PAL-advantaged levels are Train, Jungle and Aztec. And Caverns SA. Everything else is basically NTSC-advantaged. Guards are slightly more aggressive on NTSC as well.
PD: Deep Sea A/SA is PAL-advantaged. It is in fact a completely different level and NTSC wont get you the WR, not even close to it. Other minor PAL-advantages exists.
7.) Drama Queen. He is important though.
8.) We don't?
9.) Marc found or thinks he found the truth.
10.) Pretty much agree, but no real harm.
Might've elaborated more but typed this from my phone.
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8.) We don't?
Well there's nobody in the channel last time I checked. I think you guys should consider establishing a solid presence on IRC. Not only is it very convenient and accessible, but you can also interact with other people in other channels on the speedrunslive network which will help promote this community further.
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This thread is good. I will write out in depth answers in 2-3 nights when I'm bored.
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4. There's a few who like to make a stink about the admins, and they are the loudest. While the admins are admittedly a bit disconnected from the game anymore, I think 90% of folks are happy with things the way they are.
5. There's a lot of historical reasons for various things. Cheaters over the years, thresholds that seemed good, etc. Remember that competition for this game started when lots of folks were on dial-up and VHS tapes were mailed back and forth, so lots of things have to be grandfathered in over the years.
7. Lol, no I don't think Goose is too important (though he thinks he is). He's often a jerk on the forums but he's also passionate about the game so there's toleration there and he does honestly do some good some times. That said, Goose creates more drama than anyone else and may contribute more to the negativity of the community than anyone else.
9. Marc read something online called "The Truth Contest" that apparently he became convinced is true, though I don't see how. Half the time I think he's trolling but he's been at it too long... Read this thread:
http://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=18653.0
10 . Completely agree!
inb4 I get dismissed as just irrelevant. I'm honestly getting pretty tired of the "community" belittling people as "irrels". It's not a healthy attitude for the community. I for one am glad you've posted and hope you try speedrunning a little more. Every once in a while I get the bug to do some but keep getting distracted with other games :D
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All questions have been answered, but I'm bored, so here I go:
1) It compares your time to the other times listed. In this order you can get 100, 97, 95, 94, 93, 92, ..., 3, 2, 1, 0 points.
2) Most players care much more about points, though there were and are people who care about time ranks aswell. Point ranks talk you about your position related to others, about how good are your times in comparison to others'. Time ranks talk you about how good is your overall gaming, in my opinion.
3) Similar to 2). I'm one of those few eliters who take care about time and Rare ranks.
4) No idea.
5) No idea. Many of the things you mentioned can be detected after some playing. Some others don't. As Axel said, you indeed need to trust others. 80 pointer times require video because an 80 pointer is more than enough good.
6) Different framerate. Some notable differences are the music, the length of cinemas, etc. About speedrunning differences, in some levels there is less lag on one of the modes, or something. On PD most lifts are faster on NTSC. Some doors, reactions, etc. are different aswell. Bots and partners seem to move different speed sometimes.
7) No idea. He's rude and/or superb in a lot of posts, and he critizises a lot of things/people, but on the other hand he makes good contributions to the elite, he makes good researching topics and he is a great player.
8 ) No idea, I don't use any of them. I used Aim for a month in 2010, but I stopped. I'm more a Facebook and Skype guy.
9) No idea.
10) Yeah, they should :nesquik:. In most name changes, they show always signs of who they are anyway. I haven't ever changed my username and I won't do it now.
Welcome. Have fun here :P. Hope you start with serious speedrunning soon :).
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IRC was cool for a bit but it died quick. All of us talk on Facebook, Mumble and Twitch.
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Ok man sorry I took so long but here's my response;
1) I don't think there is any "documentation" but the rules used to be explained on a link from the-elite.net mainpage somewhere. It might have gotten lost in translation when the site was redone and changed servers a few times. It's extraordinarily simple though so I don't think it needs any documentation.
2) Time rankings aren't irrelevant, though they are less prestigious. That's all. In Formula 1 for instance, drivers can be ranked by their points, or by the constructor's championship rankings. One is just less prestigious. When it comes to the "Leaders" page, we often joke that that's the most relevant page, since there is a big "get WRs or die trying" mentality among the top players. Noting how many WRs a certain player has definitely does hold some merit, especially if you looked at PD in 2010, you'd see Clemens with 40 WRs and 23 N/As. Every level he played, he had the WR. Even though he was ranked in the 40s on the Points, and in the 400s in Time, he was still one of the top 3 players.
3) Rare Rankings aren't necessarily "irrelevant" and maybe not even "less prestigious." More like "less cared about." They do have merit when looking at players who were decent at both games.
4) The internet has grown into a way different place since 2004. Things grow and become amazing. The admin have done NOTHING to make the-elite a bigger and brighter spot on a bigger scale since this time. On top of this, they want to sit in their cozy chairs while DISALLOWING people who DO want to make the elite a better place from doing so; by undermining their actions, deleting progressive threads, vetoing people from having positions of authority like moderator or admin within the community, etc. For instance, the GE board needed more, active mods; and everyone wanted Karl to mod the GE board. Ngamer vetoed it, because of personal vendetta. This isn't healthy. Ngamer and his friends want the-elite to be their little casual social corner when in reality it could be something really special in the gaming world on the entire internet. The players try to make it that way, but Ngamer, Come, Thiradell, etc, are the "red tape" in this sort of bureaucratic dystopia. It is almost impossible to do anything with the-elite on a grand scale when those guys are in charge, and aren't letting anyone else take charge. They're just idling on top, wasting space.
5) The way I wrote the proof policy is such that it's up to whoever the current moderator is, to call whatever they want. Thiradell uses 80 points. This isn't a hard line. The next proof mod may want every point time, every time period, or just WRs. Who knows. The reason it took until Jan 1, 2014 for the proof policy to be formed is mostly because of what I wrote above. The admin doing nothing and not letting anyone else do anything either. As for cheating, there will always be ways to cheat. Is it worth the trouble to ask EVERY SINGLE PLAYER to show their entire setups, show a video of their rooms, every nook and cranny, and show the best time on screen, for every PR? No. You have to trust at some point.
6) PAL runs at 25fps while NTSC runs at 30. The timer is adjusted so it almost exactly the same, but there are some differences. They are extremely minute to a casual or new player though, so it's not necessary to know about until you have a few hundred hours into the game. The MAJOR difference like Axel Z said is the Deep Sea glitch. Aside from that it's mostly feel stuff.
7) I get away with it because without me, the community would have died in 2007. Without me, the most Twitch followers anyone in this community would have would be like Alex's 1500, and then everyone else with under 40. It'd be completely irrel. As much as Ngamer and co hate me, they know that I've created too big of a presence to rid. There would be outrage. It would be like when Che Guevara was exected. Of course, if I never existed, the community would have died peacefully a long time ago. But now I am revered and have faithful legions of followers. I simply mean too much to the community and have done too many good things, that they surpass my misdeeds. In a larger community or one where the admin aren't such INTJ losers who do nothing, I'd probably be banned. Though, I got away with acting like this on the Mario Kart forum for a good 2-3 years and the lol GoalLineBlitz site for like 1-2 years. I wasn't a huge player in the games themselves, so maybe that's why I wasn't banned there. Or maybe I'm just so damn charming that I'm unbannable. The unbannable. I think I'll add that to my official title.
8) IRC is literally the worst program in existence. The 10 most relevant people are in Lockwood's Mumble together so that's all that matters.
9) Marc found www.thetruthcontest.com. I feel bad for even linking it. All he wants to do now is praise the truth. You have to realize he was a 20 year old kid who lived off Denmark's disability pay in a tiny apartment, playing GE, life going nowhere. His family situation is bad too, with a blind father on disability himself, so it's not like he has anyone to push him in the right direction. Anyways, he found this site and just reads about it and spams Youtube, forums, etc, with it now. The scariest part is that he is quite clearly as deluded as anyone who joined Scientology, but it seems that the truth contest isn't even really an organization. I've yet to find any forum or "hangout" that these "members" go to. It LITERALLY appears to be a circa 1999 website that Marc has read and thinks is the word of God. He is truly deluded and it's really a sad story. He was a very interesting, incredibly talented, fierce competitor from 2009-2012 but unfortunately his life has gone to piss.
10) No. It's funny.
I hope you haven't forgotten about this topic and will read my answers. I just needed the right setting to blast these out. Much respect and love to you.
Sincerely,
Ryan "RWhiteGoose" White, the Unbannable, first of his name, Supreme Ruler of Ngamer, King of The Elite, Emperor of GoldenEye 007, Lord of Christmas Lights, Teller of Truths, Legend of the Zenith, Destroyer of Abusive Administrators, Discoverer of Spliced Runs and Vicar of the Speedrun Realm.
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Thanks for responding to all the questions Goose.
I'd be interested in hearing from the admins' side of the story.