The Elite Forum
The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: Icy on October 02, 2014, 11:56:05 pm
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(Not currently updating this thread. Replacing this with something much better for February 1st!)
Inspired by the Goldeneye 20XX thread, I think eliminating bad times from being worth points could be really fun and interesting! By strengthening The Elite's pointless times, the records look better, players are forced to improve further to gain points, and to even have points in the first place becomes more respectable as they become more valuable. In doing so, we also give new and rising players more motivation to improve some of their weak times. While the pointless times get stronger naturally, specifically trying to beat them speeds up the process, and allows players to feel more of a part of something if they join in to help.
I'm personally going to target some of these for the reasons mentioned above as well as for the fun of it! I'll keep track of this giant list of weak times (5 or less points) and post any interesting news. For example, Depot 27, a once fairly respectable time, recently became worth 0 points!
Order is based on Goldeneye and then Perfect Dark in chronological order, except for new pointless times, which are ordered by when they became pointless. Also included are the players who made each time pointless. In brackets for 1 point times are the maximum amount of seconds that can be made pointless once that time is beaten.
1 Point Times
| Facility | SA | 1:03 (1) |
| Facility | 00A | 1:05 (1) |
| Silo | 00A | 2:26 (3) |
| Frigate | LTK | 6:10 (23) |
| Bunker 2 | 00A | 1:31 (1) |
| Jungle | SA | 1:16 (1) |
| Control | SA | 4:44 (1) |
| Control | 00A | 5:12 (1) |
| Caverns | 00A | 3:41 (3) |
| Cradle | LTK | 1:34 (3) |
| Aztec | SA | 2:22 (1) |
| Aztec | 00A | 3:07 (2) |
| Defection | PA | 2:34 (5) |
| G5 | SA | 1:03 (1) |
| Infiltration | SA | 2:00 (1) |
| Rescue | SA | 2:38 (1) |
| Rescue | PA | 3:47 (2) |
| Air Base | PA | 2:50 (3) |
| Air Force One | PA | 1:42 (1) |
| Crash Site | PA | 2:33 (1) |
| Pelagic 2 | PA | 3:16 (1) |
| Deep Sea | PA | 4:22 (1) |
| Attack Ship | PA | 4:34 (2) |
| Skedar Ruins | SA | 1:53 (1) |
| Maian SOS | SA | 2:16 (1) |
2 Point Times
| Silo | SA | 1:29 |
| Silo | 00A | 2:23 |
| Frigate | LTK | 5:53 |
| Surface 2 | SA | 0:59 |
| Archives | 00A | 0:59 |
| Train | A | 1:20 |
| Train | SA | 1:54 |
| Train | 00A | 2:33 |
| Jungle | 00A | 1:33 |
| Control | 00A | 5:11 |
| Caverns | SA | 1:42 |
| Caverns | 00A | 3:38 |
| Cradle | LTK | 1:31 |
| Aztec | 00A | 3:05 |
| Investigation | PA | 3:59 |
| Extraction | PA | 2:04 |
| Villa | PA | 2:09 |
| Infiltration | PA | 3:21 |
| Escape | A | 2:41 |
| Pelagic 2 | A | 1:03 |
| Pelagic 2 | PA | 3:15 |
| Defense | SA | 1:38 |
| Skedar Ruins | PA | 2:17 |
| Maian SOS | PA | 2:35 |
3 Point Times
| Silo | 00A | 2:22 |
| Frigate | SA | 1:16 |
| Frigate | 00A | 1:26 |
| Frigate | LTK | 5:38 |
| Statue | A | 2:29 |
| Caverns | SA | 1:41 |
| Caverns | 00A | 3:34 |
| Cradle | LTK | 1:25 |
| Investigation | PA | 3:57 |
| Extraction | A | 0:56 |
| Extraction | SA | 1:47 |
| Extraction | PA | 2:03 |
| G5 | A | 0:51 |
| Infiltration | PA | 3:17 |
| Escape | SA | 3:56 |
| Air Base | A | 1:23 |
| Crash Site | PA | 2:33 |
| Pelagic 2 | SA | 2:20 |
| Pelagic 2 | PA | 3:14 |
| Deep Sea | A | 3:05 |
| Deep Sea | SA | 4:28 |
| Deep Sea | PA | 4:21 |
| Defense | PA | 2:09 |
| Attack Ship | PA | 4:32 |
| MBR | A | 1:38 |
| Maian SOS | SA | 2:15 |
4 Point Times
| Runway | 00A | 0:41 |
| Silo | 00A | 2:20 |
| Frigate | LTK | 5:12 |
| Bunker 2 | SA | 1:05 |
| Streets | SA | 1:58 |
| Train | 00A | 2:31 |
| Control | 00A | 5:10 |
| Caverns | 00A | 3:33 |
| Aztec | A | 1:51 |
| Aztec | 00A | 3:04 |
| Defection | PA | 2:29 |
| Investigation | PA | 3:56 |
| Rescue | PA | 3:45 |
| Air Base | PA | 2:47 |
| Crash Site | A | 1:29 |
| Deep Sea | A | 3:04 |
| Attack Ship | SA | 3:14 |
| Attack Ship | PA | 4:31 |
| Skedar Ruins | A | 1:25 |
| Skedar Ruins | PA | 2:16 |
| MBR | SA | 1:43 |
5 Point Times
| Bunker 1 | SA | 0:29 |
| Silo | A | 1:13 |
| Silo | 00A | 2:19 |
| Frigate | LTK | 4:51 |
| Surface 2 | 00A | 1:53 |
| Bunker 2 | 00A | 1:30 |
| Statue | 00A | 2:28 |
| Train | 00A | 2:30 |
| Jungle | 00A | 1:33 |
| Control | A | 4:12 |
| Control | SA | 4:43 |
| Control | 00A | 5:09 |
| Caverns | 00A | 3:31 |
| Cradle | 00A | 0:46 |
| Cradle | LTK | 1:15 |
| Aztec | 00A | 3:03 |
| Villa | SA | 1:36 |
| Infiltration | PA | 3:16 |
| Escape | PA | 4:08 |
| Air Base | PA | 2:46 |
| Crash Site | SA | 1:43 |
| Crash Site | PA | 2:29 |
| Pelagic 2 | PA | 3:12 |
| Attack Ship | PA | 4:30 |
2015 Pointless Times
| Caverns | 00A | 3:42-3:46 | JustinDT |
| Aztec | 00A | 3:08-3:09 | Josh116pep |
Late 2014 Pointless Times
Spoiler
| MBR | SA | 1:44 | Icy |
| Infiltration | SA | 2:01 | Icy |
| Chicago | PA | 0:36 | Icy |
| Aztec | SA | 2:23 | Icy |
| Jungle | SA | 1:18 | JustinDT |
| Control | SA | 4:48 | Flickerform |
| Bunker 2 | SA | 1:06 | Essexradio |
| Silo | 00A | 2:30 | Icy |
| Dam | 00A | 2:12 | Swiss |
| Dam | SA | 1:23 | Ash |
| Villa | PA | 2:11 | DavidK5 |
| Deep Sea | PA | 4:24 | SpeedRunTrainer |
| Facility | A | 0:51 | Oscar Pleininger |
| Rescue | PA | 3:48 | Sgreive |
| Control | 00A | 5:16 | Flickerform |
| Frigate | LTK | 6:15-7:41 | AustinTheGamer |
| Statue | 00A | 2:29 | Oscar Pleininger |
| Deep Sea | A | 3:06 | Greenounet |
| Deep Sea | SA | 4:29 | Greenounet |
| Control | SA | 4:47 | Hotshott |
| Depot | A | 0:27 | Ogran |
| Infiltration | PA | 3:26-3:29 | Icy |
| Extraction | PA | 2:05 | MouserScribe |
| DeepSea | PA | 4:23 | Icy |
| Caverns | 00A | 3:51 | Essexradio |
| Cradle | SA | 0:45 | SgtRaven |
| Investigation | PA | 4:05-4:07 | MouserScribe |
| Villa | PA | 2:10 | MouserScribe |
| G5 | PA | 1:21 | MouserScribe |
| Air Base | PA | 2:51-2:52 | MouserScribe |
| Crash Site | PA | 2:34 | MouserScribe |
| Pelagic 2 | PA | 3:17-3:18 | MouserScribe |
| Skeder Ruins | PA | 2:19 | MouserScribe |
| Infiltration | PA | 3:22-3:25 | MouserScribe |
| Silo | SA | 1:30 | Oscar Pleininger |
| Control | SA | 4:45-4:46 | Ryan Lockwood |
| Silo | 00A | 2:28-2:29 | Ryan Lockwood |
| Skedar Ruins | SA | 1:54 | Icy |
| Skedar Ruins | PA | 2:18 | Icy |
| Attack Ship | SA | 3:16 | Greenounet |
| Surface 2 | 00A | 1:54 | DSX |
| Statue | SA | 2:29 | Oscar Pleininger |
| Depot | SA | 0:48 | Ash |
| Control | 00A | 5:14-5:15 | DSX |
| Attack Ship | PA | 4:35 | Icy |
| Escape | PA | 4:09 | Icy |
| Investigation | PA | 4:00-4:04 | Icy |
| Surface 2 | A | 0:55 | Flickerform |
| Frigate | LTK | 6:11-6:16 | Josh116pep |
| Jungle | 00A | 1:34 | Icy |
| Depot | 00A | 0:59 | Ash |
| Jungle | SA | 1:17 | Twiii |
| Attack Ship | SA | 3:15 | SpeedRunTrainer |
| Caverns | SA | 1:43-1:44 | Flickerform |
| Cradle | A | 0:39 | Sakuya |
| Caverns | 00A | 3:47-3:50 | Flickerform |
| Aztec | A | 1:52 | Swiss |
| Egypt | SA | 0:54 | Matthew Burden |
| Control | 00A | 5:13 | Swiss |
| Archives | A | 0:59 | Matthew Burden |
| Crash Site | PA | 2:31-2:33 | Greenounet |
| Silo | 00A | 2:27 | JustinDT |
| Train | SA | 1:55 | Hotshott |
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You could get a rare Total Time of 3:34:46 and have 0 points. Wonder when sub 3:30 becomes pointless. 5 minutes needs to be cut still. My guess is in 2018.
An interesting sidenote:
The only players that currently score points on all 123 levels are the ones ranked 1st-9th on the rare ranks, and Andrew "Vulpex" Kent (ranked 36th) :kappa:
Depot 27 will probably be pointless before 2015 though and that is quite remarkable.
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The only players that currently score points on all 123 levels are the ones ranked 1st-9th on the rare ranks, and Andrew "Vulpex" Kent (ranked 36th) :kappa:
Sounds like we need to fix Depot Agent then. :kappa:
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One really interesting thing I noticed not too long ago is that LTK times are actually getting closer to becoming pointless now too! Frigate (which for some reason is the most popular level) has some very low-point amounts for very weak times. 7:41 is currently only worth 2 points, and when that goes, so will all the possible times up to 6:17, shaving off a huge chunk of terrible times that shouldn't be worth anything! The only other level that's getting close as well is Cradle, with 1:34 sitting at 6 points at the moment. I suppose with the recent surge of activity and massive untieds, many newer and talented players are joining in and eliminating "first completion" times.
In other news, Depot A 0:27 is still sitting at a weak 5 points, and Surface 2 A 0:55 lost a point and is now at 4 points. Once these are gone, new players to The Elite will have to play at a respectable pace on Depot and learn the mine throw in Surface 2, which is a good thing for competitiveness and killing laziness.
Otherwise, the only notable happenings since the start of this topic is 16 seconds knocked off (6 in Perfect Dark, 10 in Goldeneye), in particular, Facility A 0:51 and Chicago PA 0:36. I hope to see more players with N/As taking out garbage times, as well as seeing LTK become more polished!
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statue is similar to surface with still being able to get points w/o trev shot. I wouldn't call it laziness as much as a bunch of people stopped playing forever ago before that strat. Anything < like 20 points seems not worth playing for since it'll be zero soon enough anyway.
I don't agree with a good thing for competitiveness if new people struggle harder and harder for points and thus are more likely to give up than continue on b/c of no progress; but a bunch of people that are new are at least good speedrunners from elsewhere so it's not an issue for them but totally new is rougher as the easy point times are disappearing.
GE pointless total time currently tied for 83rd
PD pointless total time currently 82nd. Will probably stay in the top 100 for quite some time at least from all the guys that leave the N/A's up.
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Cheap points are getting harder and harder to get, but almost nonexistent in the popular Agent levels. Similar to other games with stages/levels (Portal, Sonic, F-Zero, Ninja Gaiden, Punch Out, etc.), where the early stages/levels are usually more optimized than the latter.
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Yeah Frigate has always been the most popular level on LTK, followed by Cradle for some reason. My theory as to why everybody plays and get completions on Frigate: it's way easier than all the 6 previous levels, and an unusually fun level too. As for Cradle, I guess its relative easiness as well as shortness entice people into attempting it.
Surface 2 is without a doubt the easiest (followed by Frigate and Cradle imo) but people find S2 long and unexciting. Egypt is also ridiculously easy especially if you do the objectives in opposite order. Facility is the 3rd most popular LTK level and that comes as no surprise even though there are a handful levels that are easier.
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Yeah, there are a ton of points from ancient times, but there are some from newer players as well. I've actually lost some levels with points myself because I didn't push harder for better times and was lazy about it. I mean laziness more that new players can't get away with not learning the mine throw strat, not that veterans were.
The matter of competitiveness depends on how you view it. Sure, some new players, particularly to speedrunning in general might give up on getting points, but if so, they're likely to not have pushed much further anyway. It's not about alienating new/improving players, just that as time goes on, it's inevitable that points become more valuable and harder to earn, and it's interesting (to me at least) to record that progression. There's always time ranks anyway if The Elite ever reaches where levels are WR or ~0 points, lol.
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For the first time ever, The Elite now has a pointless LTK time! Austin's recent completion lead to a minute and twenty seven seconds becoming pointless on Frigate, and now the worst time for points is 6:16! A big step in the direction of making points more valuable as time goes on.
"Bill Goldberg" is the first and currently only person with an LTK completion and getting 0 points for it.
(https://i.imgur.com/XjvvgPa.jpg)
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Pretty cool. Wonder how long we'll have to wait until we see the first posted pointless LTK time.
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Already mentioned elsewhere on the boards, Depot 27 is now pointless with Ogran's latest 26! Parroting Axel, four players have lost the only points they had: Niklas Andersson, Jean-Sebastien Dubois, Kyle Blair and Sam Powell. Some top players that had points in all 60 levels lost that too, which are Derek Clark, Garrett Sellati, and Tim Greneby. And on top, Andrew Kent who had points in all 123 levels lost that achievement. Currently, the only players that have points in all 123 levels are the top 9 players in Rare Point Ranks, whereas Andrew Kent was 36th. Quite a few other players are close to that as well, however.
The next impactful pointless times coming up are Surface 2 A 0:55, Cradle SA 0:45, Depot SA 0:48, Cradle A 0:39, Archives SA and 00A 0:59, Frigate LTK improvement, and more! Anyone that doesn't already have better than these times can help kill the irrelevance!
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Update!
Two big, classic times have now reached pointless status: Depot A 0:27, and Surface 2 A 0:55! Other notable times include Depot SA 0:48, Cradle SA 0:45, Investigation PA 4:00, Statue SA 2:29, and many more! Some of the next big times that are nearing 0 points are Cradle LTK times, Egypt SA 54, Cradle A 0:39, Infiltration SA 2:00, Archives SA/00A 0:59, Extraction A 0:56, Runway 00A 0:41, Streets SA 1:58, and a ton more!
Another really interesting fact is with Surface 2 A 0:55 becoming pointless, only 1 of the 60 original WRs of The Elite (see: here (http://rankings.the-elite.net/goldeneye/past/1998/07/26)) is still worth points, being Bunker 2 A 0:27 still currently at a strong 16 points! It'd be very neat to see how far into history we can go with making all WRs pointless. Maybe one day we'll reach a level where all pre-2000 times are worth nothing!?
Finally,
You could get a rare Total Time of 3:34:46 and have 0 points. Wonder when sub 3:30 becomes pointless. 5 minutes needs to be cut still. My guess is in 2018.
Well, since the start of this thread, we've already cut out a whopping 63 seconds! 39 of which are from Perfect Dark, and 24 from Goldeneye, bringing down the total pointless time down to 3:33:45! A lot of the time has come from multiple second improvements in the long PA and 00A levels, and there are still many new times that would cut out more than one second!
Great job everyone! As a speedrunning community like any other, the WRs are always what people focus on for optimization, but because we use a ranking system all the way down to 97th on every level, optimizing from the bottom up is nice to see too! It's awesome to see how much that's improved in such a short time!
Edit: Added how many seconds each 1 point time will become pointless. I'll give the main post a proper makeover at some point.
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Maybe one day we'll reach a level where all pre-2000 times are worth nothing!?
I just checked them and it's surprisingly realistic. The only major problem I see is B1 18 which is still at 54pts (couldn't beat it myself :nesquik:) which can only go pointless with a new huge wave of twitch spawns. S2 SA 57, Runway 00A 40 and Silo 00A 154 could take a while too but those are lol times.
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I really like this thread and the stats that Icy is pulling from it. As someone who has been here forever and clearly shown the lack of skill/determination to get top times I think this is a fun way to lower the bar for me and give me goals to achieve that are more casual, realistic, and outside of the WR realm. I had a blast going for Cradle :44 and even though it's no where near the WR it felt good to hit. There was meaning to the time, I wanted it, and I got it. This thread > WR thread.
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That's awesome to hear!
I gave the main post a major aesthetic overhaul, so it looks much nicer now. :v
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Any updates this week? I may need to knock some more 1 pointers off the list.
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The main post is almost always fully up to date unless I'm busy, so have at it! :v
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Minor update! Though there haven't been too many new pointless times, and even fewer notable ones, a lot of low points have been weakened significantly, and we're on the tipping point for a lot of cuts!
Caverns 00A took some damage, but is still #1 for most leeway for points, having 2:16 between the WR and 0 points. The difference between the current 1 point time and 6 point time is a huge 15 seconds though, and with a small push beyond that, all times will be within 2 minutes. That's fairly high, but considering the difficulty of surviving some levels, it's not too surprising. Infiltration PA is at 1:42 itself; maybe we need more Jap carts? :v
Goldeneye Agent was cleaned up fairly nicely with the end of both Cradle 0:39 and Aztec 1:52, now with only a couple weak times left and there won't be any new ones in awhile. Technical and tricky levels like Silo, Train, and Aztec still have a lot of low point times, but levels like Dam and Archives with fairly frequent WRs are always getting closer to WR or bust, both with 40ish points for times one second off. Other levels where non-WRs have lost a lot of value this year are Surface 1 and Surface 2. Agent pointless total sits at 22:12, close to the next minute. Secret Agent and 00 Agent are also close, with SA being 11 more seconds to break half an hour!
Frigate LTK lost a fair chunk of seconds, and the next few decent completions kill off over a minute in time! Also, Cradle LTK now sits with a 1 point time, but no pointless times yet. The seconds aren't as large for such a short level, but weeding out slower, safer strats has made some progress. No other levels have notably weak times yet.
Perfect Dark hasn't seen much activity in terms of new pointless times, but there's now a laundry list of 1-pointers for SA and PA, some being multiple second kills. It probably won't be long before the pointless total goes under 2 hours, which is currently sitting at 2:02:04.
A bit of a boring update overall, but there's been a large flux of new players joining and rising players filling in their N/As, so maybe we'll see some more excitement regarding pointless times soon. Every new record that has point value is a small step forward!
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Cradle LTK is now the 2nd level with a pointless time! However, no additional seconds were made pointless. :kappa:
(But seriously, good job! LTK activity is always good). :v
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I'm so happy to become the only person with Cradle LTK 0 points, haha. At least it made for some history.
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For historical reasons, it's neat to see someone have 0 points on the LTK rankings, and to see in the newsfeed "0 points gained". You can certainly get points by shaving a few seconds, or just completing almost any other level anyway. =)
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UPDATE
Train Agent 1:20 is currently worth one point. This is a great opportunity to give the infamous Andrew Kent another zero point PR.