The Elite Forum
The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: RWG on February 02, 2015, 12:34:03 am
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**DISCLAIMER**: This thread is intended to be purely friendly discussion and theory. I do not plan on bringing any ideas brought forward to the council in the immediate future.
With Dam Agent 0:53 and Archives Agent 0:16 quickly approaching 100 WR ties, now is a good time to have this discussion. Should a level be removed when it has 100+ ties? Or when you need the WR for 100 points, and 1 second off the WR is 0 points? We've had this discussion in Perfect Dark about Duel, but I'm interested to hear what Goldeneye players have to say about it.
These are some arguments for REMOVING a level when it gets too tied:
- A rankings system must be able to adequately differ the ability of many entities. That's the whole purpose of a rankings system. When something becomes like Duel 3, it effectively loses this ability, making it pointless to rank such things. It essentially becomes a black and white "yes or no" question in "Do you have Dam 53? If yes 100 points, if no, 0 points."
- It clogs up the rankings with new players focusing entirely on getting said time as a prerequisite for further rankings increase. If you are throwing away 100 points on a level, you really do need to get that WR before playing other levels to improve your ranking.
These are some arguments for KEEPING a level even when it gets 100+ ties:
- We are all special snowflakes and even if the WR is tied by 5million people it's still a WR and we all want to feel special about ourselves.
- It is a level in the game, and no matter what they should always be ranked.
There are also arguments that can be made for increasing the points system to 1000 or 10000 points per level so that levels with 100+ ties don't impact the rankings so greatly.
What do you all think?
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Im a complete irel who hasnt put GE in his N64 in years, but here is my take;
I like the point system as it is now, and I dont think the time should be removed. Ive been lurking here for almost a decade now so I understand the argument of removing it from the rankings, but to someone like me who would be coming to this site without playing it would seem odd to just not have a time on the page simply for the fact that a lot of people have it. It doesn't help that it is literally the first level anyone ever played in GE growing up, either. So I answer your question with another question; are the rankings for The Elite runners or are they for the rest of the world to see? If they are just for you, delete Dam Agent. If they are for everyone else, leave it up.
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I think levels that use OCB should remain on the ranks. I think the only level that should be removed is duel because it's a piece of shit.
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I believe that every GE level should be left on the rankings, and that the point system should be untouched.
Having a black and white "Do you have Dam 53? If yes, 100 points, if no 0 points" won't happen with all 60 levels. Levels on the agent difficulty are bound to be optimized to a point where 53 and 16 are, currently. These aren't typical occurrences and they shouldn't be treated differently as to change the whole rankings system because of them.
Speedrunning can be comparable to say, something like music. Talent, if such a thing exists, can be considered, but for the most part, it's about the work you put into it that gives you the results. What I mean by this is that if you are a beginner in this game, you aren't about to hit up dat Aztec 00A for the WR, no sir. You're going to drift towards levels like Dam, Runway, Caverns, Depot, Streets, B1, and Archives first, all on agent difficulty.
Why is this?
It's like going through school. You don't start out doing advanced calculus in kindergarten. You have to learn the easy stuff first, the building blocks to a more successful result in your field. Our field is GoldenEye, and to further your OCB, you need to start out with the basics. Namely, levels like Dam Agent. Yes, as a community grows, this level of black and white "WR or bust" is bound to happen. This is what we want, our community to grow, the competition to max out the game as much as humanly possible, and to have that rush of excitement along the way. Records like Dam 53 and Archives 16 will eventually be treated like test results, 53/16 meaning you've passed, and 54+/17+ meaning you haven't passed yet. So I completely disagree on the point that the rankings wouldn't still differ the abilities of all players. There are 60 levels, we're talking about 2 of the levels that beginners use to start out with. This will not happen for every level in the game, and if in our lifetime it happens to, then I think THAT might be a better time for a discussion on seriously altering the system's point delegation.
Once a person's OCB has become significant enough to achieve said times, they use these times as a sort of badge to display where your OCB and overall knowledge/skill are at.
Another argument towards not changing our ranking system or removing the levels would be that achieving points on The-Elite rankings is an achievement in and of itself. On any level. GoldenEye (and Perfect Dark) takes time, it's a non-stop project (unless you're Ace :kappa:) to further yourself in the game. Our community's goal (or one of, rather) would be to have our players become significant enough to have the OCB to achieve any time currently on our rankings, and then to further max out and bring down the overall game timer from it's current 1:12:13.
As a side note, I think the OP might have been a tad condescending in that you obviously favour having the level removed or the rankings changed. :v
So yeah, that's my point of view. Feel free to agree or disagree. :pimp:
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lol @ take dam/archives out. I mean #comeonson
only argument to me that makes any sense is that say duel 3 and an untied WR are worth the same and those should be adjusted.
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Wording everything Alec said, pretty much my exact thoughts. Removing a level when it has 100+ WRs is appropriate only for levels like Duel: a level that is 3 seconds long, and OBJECTIVELY takes no map knowledge and minimal technical ability or skill. As long as the level is actually somewhat challenging, the time should remain regardless of # of ties.
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OBJECTIVELY takes no map knowledge and minimal technical ability or skill. As long as the level is actually somewhat challenging, the time should remain regardless of # of ties.
So, everything in both games except for Duel 3. This is in the GE thread for a reason...... :v
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Ever since the Dan Berube issue was revisited. Goose has been to make extreme revisions... This is starting to get ridiculous.
Removing Dam 53 or any other of the common world records would be a complete joke.
EDIT: " I do not plan on bringing any ideas brought forward to the council in the immediate future."
I wouldn't put it past him to attempt to do so... He's already planted the seed into people's heads.
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OBJECTIVELY takes no map knowledge and minimal technical ability or skill. As long as the level is actually somewhat challenging, the time should remain regardless of # of ties.
So, everything in both games except for Duel 3. This is in the GE thread for a reason...... :v
I only use Duel 3 as an example because it is the only thing that is reasonably applicable to the sort of system that Goose brought up, as doing the same for any level in GE would be a joke.
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Ever since the Dan Berube issue was revisited. Goose has been to make extreme revisions... This is starting to get ridiculous.
The first thing Goose said was that it was just for the sake of discussion.
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Wow at all the negative reception I'm getting here. I never argued either side of this debate. I simply pointed out possible arguments that could be made for both sides! I merely created this for some discussion, theorycrafting and to see how the community feels about this. I was as neutral as possible in the OP of this thread's creation!
It is definitely very interesting how everyone in here seems in favor of removing Duel from the rankings under the premise that "it is vastly different from Dam Agent and requires so little skill that it is certainly removable."
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I never argued either side of this debate.
Well, you subtly did in your pro/contra section, by suggesting everyone in favor of ranking common WRs was an unreasonable butthurt emo fag.
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I'm not sure anyone has presented any new arguments in favor of keeping Dam 53 which I didn't represent in the OP? I apologize that complete debating involves sharing "butthurt" arguments.
I remain completely neutral on this matter.
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What's great about the rankings is that the-elite started the tradition where the best players have to get essentially the same records as the worst. You can be watching Twitch and see Archives 16, and you know that Ace has 16, Goose has 16, and just think, you can get 16, too. A 16 is a 16 and no amount of money can get you a better 16 than the one the bum on the corner is playing for. All the 16's are the same and all the 16's are good. Goose knows it, Ace knows it, the bum knows it, and you know it.
-Andy Warhol :nesquik:
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I am in favor of keeping it, the reason being it will only serve those not good enough to get it. Unlike a level like duel, where someone's toddler sibling could be taught how to accomplish a time of 3 seconds reasonably quickly, Dam requires a player pass a certain threshold of skill. You should have to display your skill on every level of the game to be ranked the best and just because 100 people get it, you shouldn't be awarded a free pass so to speak.
Also, lol @ Goose saying the initial post is neutral.
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No. It's about incentives.
By removing a levels with lots of tied records, you've removed the levels that newcomers usually try for first. Some of those newcomers may get drawn in by a reasonably achievable record, and move on to more difficult records after that.
Removing those levels sends the message that you care little about newly entering players, you only care about your own "hardcore" group. You doom the community to a slow death when you discourage new blood from entering.
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You doom the community to a slow death when you discourage new blood from entering.
The same kind of slow death Ngamer and Come encouraged by preventing anything to promote Goldeneye for 10+ years until I started streaming on Twitch and brought in over 100+ new players? :nesquik:
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Oh my god, the newest shittiest "Thread series" of the-elite produces this many lines of discussion... FFS D:
Reading now to give my input (which won't be strong at all since this is all irrel, like OPs said). I predict that this whole discussion is far worse than No Limit Hold'em theory on preflop hand range models...
EDIT: Ok, I read it, and it was exactly like I imagined.
This arbitrary view of " The whole purpose of a rankings system." is rather interesting... ok, I lie, IMO it's a complete joke :) . Wanna pinpoint rel levels and rank players based more on them than things like 16 and 53, just leave it to Luke or a mathematical model/formula to make OCB rankings.
Like Eric said, Goose saying that OP is "neutral" is indeed hilarious. :rollin: And, obviously, in 2~3 years, when both WRs get 150-way tied and the elite resorts to a 200-point per level system, this discussion WILL be brought over to the council.
Duel being considered a ranked level is still an absolute joke, not because of WR-tie numbers or etc etc, just because it's DUEL itself. Any clueless person can see that, don't even need to rationalize further like circlejerkers from a Math Bachelors course (or like some people who compare the level to Egypt or Statue, LOOOOOL). From all 41 levels in both games, it is THE exception.
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Increasing the point cap per level would seem like the more logical option if this sort of thing does become an issue. That method would also have the added benefit of making it easier for newcomers to get points, which would likely encourage more people to play the game.
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Right, the discussion should probably turn to a different rankings formula, which has been discussed in the past and would be increasingly viable as WRs get tied more and more. Removing a level (like "the-elite has beaten this level") has the adverse effect that Stoxen described. 100 people getting Dam 0:53 doesn't mean everyone else should, by virtue of its removal, also get credit for it.
also removing a level would be really dumb
my post is intended to be friendly discussion
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I'm all for a 200 point system, seeing as I can't manage to get any points in Goldeneye (even though I use 1.1 and don't like 1.2). Bunker 1 is one of the levels for newcomers to grind for points, yet after 17.5 hours of grinding it, I still haven't gotten an 18. At least on Haloruns you get points even if your time is more than a minute off WR, so people can compete with others of their skill level. I understand the-elite is more serious and pretty much only for Pros, but never getting any points is kind of dull, and I branched off into other speedgames because of it. I'm not someone who plays just for points, but every time I stream I can't even PB anymore.
I think Dam and Archives are fine. I can't even come close to getting points on them. As for Duel, I'm neutral because I like having a WR, lol.
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I'm all for a 200 point system, seeing as I can't manage to get any points in Goldeneye (even though I use 1.1 and don't like 1.2). Bunker 1 is one of the levels for newcomers to grind for points, yet after 17.5 hours of grinding it, I still haven't gotten an 18. At least on Haloruns you get points even if your time is more than a minute off WR, so people can compete with others of their skill level. I understand the-elite is more serious and pretty much only for Pros, but never getting any points is kind of dull, and I branched off into other speedgames because of it. I'm not someone who plays just for points, but every time I stream I can't even PB anymore.
I think Dam and Archives are fine. I can't even come close to getting points on them. As for Duel, I'm neutral because I like having a WR, lol.
If you're really struggling to get a PB, this probably isn't your speedgame or you just need to grind harder due to a weaker natural talent for speedrunning than others.
Deal with it.
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Have higher expectations. There's plenty of people who started from scratch and are clearing out the easy pointers one by one... some of them are becoming WR holders. It's all about picking up the advanced strats, learning and improving with each and every attempt.
And, in what world are we "more serious and pretty much only for Pros"??? (I can't even understand what you mean by that LOL) And branching out because of not gaining points... I don't even...
If you wanna speedrun this, or ANY GAME, you gotta step up. Not switching to 1.2/1.4, sketchy/stuck 3rd shot forward lockshot on Dam (why would you even settle for that on a PR?), dumping seconds on B1 due to strafe-changing/hugging the wall when going behind the GE key table - and not warping last door, slowing down to do a setup for Depot trainshot (that's SLOWER than no ts, you know), your completely absurd Archives strat, super wide strafings, excessive lookup, 16:9 are crucial mistakes you're currently doing. If you don't wanna commit to getting better and correct them, fine, but you're gonna stay without "points" as they're measured on the current rankings system for quite a *long* while.
Again, tons of people went from nobodies with mediocre PRs worthy for time ranks to climbing the ranks. One of the best examples being Ogran, a guy who stayed without points for a few months or so, and now he is absolutely crushing it. Don't mix up the way the rankings are with the level and quality of your efforts.
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Is that "played for 5 mins and couldn't get used to it" real? It took me like 20 hours at least to start feeling OK with 1.2. Had to play a lot of multi with it and stuff like that to become fluent.
Yeah this league is hard, and it's going to deter some people. Adding points makes points less special for those who put in the effort to achieve them. I doubt the olympic committee would think it's a good idea to increase the total medals to 6 just because some people might be deterred by coming 4th. That's why olympic medals as so prized, because they are difficult to get. That's what makes them awesome.
Let this be a lesson in life. Everything worthwhile takes a lot of effort. If you don't want to work hard you're going to be a loser in everything.
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I'm all for a 200 point system, seeing as I can't manage to get any points in Goldeneye (even though I use 1.1 and don't like 1.2). Bunker 1 is one of the levels for newcomers to grind for points, yet after 17.5 hours of grinding it, I still haven't gotten an 18. At least on Haloruns you get points even if your time is more than a minute off WR, so people can compete with others of their skill level. I understand the-elite is more serious and pretty much only for Pros, but never getting any points is kind of dull, and I branched off into other speedgames because of it. I'm not someone who plays just for points, but every time I stream I can't even PB anymore.
I think Dam and Archives are fine. I can't even come close to getting points on them. As for Duel, I'm neutral because I like having a WR, lol.
oh god this entire post
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Making analogy of GE with Olympics :rollin:
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If I can get Top 10 with 1.1 including SUCH AMAZING TIMES as Facility A 44, S1 SA 148, Archives 54s, Silo 101/109, B1 00A 102, Train Agent 1:06 (PAL), etc, this is proof that no one actually needs to learn 1.2.
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Benobot does have a reasonable point (and it's a point others have brought up before), the easy points have mostly vanished with the influx of quality and quantity runners. There's still some left but they're p much all RNG or "do this till it works" type levels which people tend to loathe. As we all know, it sucks when you're playing and not feeling like you're progressing. no question it's can be tough to those who can't easily get points these days b/c it's not 2005 where as long as you weren't a complete idiot or 1.1 with the worst stick in existence you could manage to get some points b/c half the ranks ragequit after lookdown got discovered.
The best way to go about appealing to both groups is difficult tho as this community has been a you better bring it community and many feel it should stay that way. Every system has some positive and negative to it.
edit--wasn't that long ago we had the easy point topic and basically all those are 0 now. (S2A 55 was like 20 points at the time)
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Let this be a lesson in life. Everything worthwhile takes a lot of effort. If you don't want to work hard you're going to be a loser in everything.
This. It's okay to be completely abysmal at something, progressing slowly, and/or getting frustrated at improvement, but as said, if you want to be good at anything in life, you've got to pump in the hours and be dedicated. If everything was easy, nothing would be worth achieving. Pursuing speedrunning in that manner is certainly not for everyone and that's okay, but you're not going to be handed points just because you want them. Prove to us and yourself how much you want them by hard work, research, and putting your goals ahead of your ego and stubbornness.
If you need any tips, want your runs reviewed, or have any questions, the community is happy to help!
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Softman25 all over again.
Zzz
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Lol, everytime i see that Karl Jobst has posted on the boards, it makes me cringe. Everytime i take a good look at Karl Jobst, i'm reminded how not to be. Something of the opposite of what to aspire for in life. You have very little understanding of how life works, which is why you have no success in life, and is why you are insecure and have very low self-esteem.
It's also like you have developped this habit of being a pussy. Like, everything you do. You look and talk like a pussy. You look really really weird. You look like you'd be a character from The Simpsons. Karl Jobst, the pussy populist LOL.
I saved this post, in case Karl will have it deleted like in the past. (He hates when i expose his stupid ass)
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marc is the shitpost champ
I am honestly not even sure if Marc even understands what is being discussed in this thread.
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oh God
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Marc's and Goose's posts will stay tied worst posts of febuary 2015 by the end of the month.
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If someone wants to feel like they're progressing then they can earn the right to.
It's called The-Elite, not The-Pretty-Good.
(https://i.imgur.com/9Wjb3Oj.png)
dat 2 cents lol!!
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stream pinball mate
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I believe that every GE level should be left on the rankings, and that the point system should be untouched.
Having a black and white "Do you have Dam 53? If yes, 100 points, if no 0 points" won't happen with all 60 levels. Levels on the agent difficulty are bound to be optimized to a point where 53 and 16 are, currently. These aren't typical occurrences and they shouldn't be treated differently as to change the whole rankings system because of them.
Speedrunning can be comparable to say, something like music. Talent, if such a thing exists, can be considered, but for the most part, it's about the work you put into it that gives you the results. What I mean by this is that if you are a beginner in this game, you aren't about to hit up dat Aztec 00A for the WR, no sir. You're going to drift towards levels like Dam, Runway, Caverns, Depot, Streets, B1, and Archives first, all on agent difficulty.
Why is this?
It's like going through school. You don't start out doing advanced calculus in kindergarten. You have to learn the easy stuff first, the building blocks to a more successful result in your field. Our field is GoldenEye, and to further your OCB, you need to start out with the basics. Namely, levels like Dam Agent. Yes, as a community grows, this level of black and white "WR or bust" is bound to happen. This is what we want, our community to grow, the competition to max out the game as much as humanly possible, and to have that rush of excitement along the way. Records like Dam 53 and Archives 16 will eventually be treated like test results, 53/16 meaning you've passed, and 54+/17+ meaning you haven't passed yet. So I completely disagree on the point that the rankings wouldn't still differ the abilities of all players. There are 60 levels, we're talking about 2 of the levels that beginners use to start out with. This will not happen for every level in the game, and if in our lifetime it happens to, then I think THAT might be a better time for a discussion on seriously altering the system's point delegation.
Once a person's OCB has become significant enough to achieve said times, they use these times as a sort of badge to display where your OCB and overall knowledge/skill are at.
Another argument towards not changing our ranking system or removing the levels would be that achieving points on The-Elite rankings is an achievement in and of itself. On any level. GoldenEye (and Perfect Dark) takes time, it's a non-stop project (unless you're Ace :kappa:) to further yourself in the game. Our community's goal (or one of, rather) would be to have our players become significant enough to have the OCB to achieve any time currently on our rankings, and then to further max out and bring down the overall game timer from it's current 1:12:13.
As a side note, I think the OP might have been a tad condescending in that you obviously favour having the level removed or the rankings changed. :v
So yeah, that's my point of view. Feel free to agree or disagree. :pimp:
Again, look really hard for my point about points, Benobot. I'm sure you can read through this. :nesquik:
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Great job GE mods, you're doing a swell job.
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Lol, everytime i see that K.. J.. has posted on the boards, it makes me cringe. Everytime i take a good look at K.. J.., i'm reminded how not to be. Something of the opposite of what to aspire for in life. You have very little understanding of how life works, which is why you have no success in life, and is why you are insecure and have very low self-esteem.
It's also like you have developped this habit of being a pussy. Like, everything you do. You look and talk like a pussy. You look really really weird. You look like you'd be a character from The Simpsons. K.. J.., the pussy populist LOL.
I saved this post, in case K.. will have it deleted like in the past. (He hates when i expose his stupid ass)
Look, sorry I upset you. Are we able to work something out where we don't post dumb shit like this here?
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here's another bad post.
A special page for rankings and times for everyone with 0 points on the main elite. (the definitely not elite rankings?) Same ranking system just only for those who don't have any points on the main. Takes at least 5 clicks to find it off the main page so you never see it unless you're trying to find it. Easy to move up and nobody who's worth anything will stumble upon or have to see it.
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I read everything Karl, just didn't feel the need to snipe those posts (yet). Sorry m8.
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How the fuck can you read Marc's post and think that it's appropriate and not delete worthy.
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Sorry m8.
:nesquik:
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Karl is getting desperate. Karl has officially been exposed. If it was obvious bullshit, it would have no chance of getting deleted, the boards and the internet are filled with it, and it is very acceptable. However, Karl knows my post is the truth. He knows that i have exposed him big time, and that it is dangerous. He knows deep down that i know what's going on, and that he'd never be able to fool me. Karl is afraid of the truth. He knows subconsciously that it will eventually tear apart the walls he has put up for himself, the temporarily illusions and the image he has created for himself, which he only lies to himself about. Karl cannot bear the truth. He will attempt to cover himself up to others, and he will succeed mostly, but he knows very well that he cannot hide anything from me. I am the truth. I am the life. I will keep watching you, Karl. Always.
I have to make one thing clear. I like Karl, just as i like Goose. Although i like Goose more. I did right from the beginning. He has a lot of ambitions in life, set high goals for himself, and there is no doubt in my mind that his intentions are good. The problem is, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions as the saying goes. It does not matter, if you do not understand how life basically works, thus you have no idea what to do, which Karl doesn't.
I know what you are going through and I know the path that leads to success. Follow me.
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Follow me.
Where are we goin'?!
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follow me and everything is alright
I'll be the one to tuck you in at night
and if you wanna leave I can guarantee
you won't find nobody else like me
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Karl is getting desperate. Karl has officially been exposed.
Why the fuck do I always laugh when I read this word?
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Congrats Austin! I was starting to worry that you were going to give up and quit goldeneye forever and become a successful person in real life, but I am glad you came through!
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:kappa:
Congrats Austin! I was starting to worry that you were going to give up and quit goldeneye forever and become a successful person in real life, but I am glad you came through!