The Elite Forum
Nonsense Time => FFA => Topic started by: RWG on May 04, 2016, 06:29:44 am
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Nearly three years ago now, there was ample discussion in this thread: http://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=19147.0 on whether or not Duel PA 0:09, or the Duel level all together should count as a WR or even be on the rankings in the first place. Given how in the past couple of years public opinion has shifted completely on things like Marc's converter or Berube's 53, I think now is a good time to revisit the argument for Duel being or not being on the world rankings.
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Here are some arguments for Duel REMAINING on the rankings:
- It's always been that way since 2001
- Some ppl who worked hard for the Duel WRs would feel sad because their records would be removed
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Here are some arguments for Duel BEING REMOVED from the rankings:
- Duel is unlike other missions in either GE or PD in that it is not unlocked by progressing through the game. It is unlocked by playing a training exercise outside of the missions of the game. This indicates Duel is more of an external training exercise than it is an in game mission.
- Duel was never *intended* to be played through as a distinct mission with its own story. It is a bonus stage. Every other level in GE/PD are part of the big story, or their own unique one. Duel is not.
- There is no cheat unlocked for beating Duel in a fast manner. Every other of the 40 stages in GE/PD do have a cheat unlock. Duel doesn't. If anything, the reason we began speedrunning these games was to unlock the cheats. Duel is unique in that it doesn't have this same quality.
- Since Duel has hundreds of ties, it no longer serves the ability to effectively rank anyone. A world rankings requires definition and difference between competitors in order to effectively rank its competitors. Since Duel is so full of ties, it is useless in this regard.
- Removing Duel would give Perfect Dark a 6000 point ceiling, in line with Goldeneye, improving consistency across both games.
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Feel free to discuss your views on either side of the debate. I might update some points in the OP as they are brought up. Also I may add a poll in a few days but not until people have had time to discuss and debate before voting.
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I agree that duel should be removed, it's clearly not a level
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remove it
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It's not a real level, it's just a stupid miniquest. Keeping just PA was arbitrary (and only due to some WRs like Chicago 15 and Defection 6 being comparably common at the time). And the phrase "the oldest non-duel WR" is a pain.
Also:
http://rankings.the-elite.net/perfect-dark/leaders
#REMOVE
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I stated my opinions in quite a lot of details in the previous topic.
I won't post them again, but Duel should be removed for all points stated above.
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I guess you could remove it, it doesn't serve much purpose. It's just like 300 points for free. It doesn't do anything with the current rankings, because all top players have 300 points.
All these Duel WR posts are annoying anyway, maybe another reason to just remove it.
I disagree with the fact that it's not an in-game mission though. It has all the same features as the rest of the levels (completion screen, in the same main level selection, all three difficulties, clear objectives which you can fail and complete etc.)
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I was somewhat leaning to keep it last time, but I've been swayed a fair bit to its removal now. The issue though is the historic effects it would have during the years it has been a level, and even affecting the ranks as is now. I think speaking as someone with the sweep, plus LTK/DLTK 0:09, my opinion is worthwhile.
For starters, there are many players even in the top 50 (Funky Buddha, Trent, Kack, Goose :nesquik:) that currently don't have Duel 0:09, and the rankings get re-adjusted due to the shift in 60/100 point difference. This can potentially have affected things like top 10s, 50s, etc. I doubt it has any affect on anything top 5 or higher though. While these still hold historically anyway, they also do affect the (arbitrary) achievements that are added to player profiles, particular Streaker and World Record Holder, as well as The Big 10K. "Grandfathering" them is kind of sleazy for those that get free rides, but removing them is also a mess. It also makes a mess of the historic minute breakers of total WR time, player time ranks, and the like.
On the other hand of discussion, the level also indeed isn't really speedrunning, and it's more of an accuracy test. With recent strat technology like my spin-to-win on Trent and pause buffering Jonathon, it's devolved purely into a grind. The fact that low 0:09s are possible further exemplifies it's more of an accuracy test. I strongly recommend watching Flicker's Duel DLTK 0:09 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg-Nmbt6q_M) to see the amount of leeway you have.
Also having worked with the databases for nearly a year and a half now, the piles of people with just 100 points from Duel Agent who have made no attempts to develop their skills in actually speedrunning Perfect Dark are just clutter. It's annoying and messy on the ranks. The leaders page is also a mess from players with PA 0:09s and nothing else. I think regardless of anyone's opinion on keeping or removing Duel, that having Duel 0:09 count for that is just clutter and silly.
The debate on the level is essentially keeping history in tact vs removing all the clutter it creates.
So here's my suggestion: leave Duel on the rankings and such as it is, but completely strip the points it rewards and keep everything else, including achievements. Perhaps give a free 300 point boost towards The Big 10K to balance out those who achieved it before. Duel takes up a negligible amount of space on the ranks since all initials are gone, the points don't affect history save for some irrelevant ranking changes in the top 50ish or below due to 0:09/0:10 differences, it cleans up the ranks in such a way that points more accurately compares players, it takes out a ton of clutter, both games have a 6000 points total, and lots of other benefits. I think this is the best way to handle a major error made in the past that keeps everything stable and everyone happy with the result.
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I agree with Icy and everyone else
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I agree with Alex but nobody else.
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Remove that shit off the offical ranks. I'd say keep the data and future Duel "WRs" somewhere else but not in the official rankings. I always felt like it was cheating to get the "streaker" achievement with the Duel level.
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I think this is the best way to handle a major error made in the past that keeps everything stable and everyone happy with the result.
Do you mean the error of Rare adding Duel to the missions list?
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leave duel and it's points but strip it from the WR count.
why should people be punished b/c "better" players can't get the time?
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Rather than investing time into arguing, you could be out finishing the level and putting it behind you forever. Counter-productive, IMO.
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^ Investing time into duel would be productive? Mate, it will even be unranked soon.
Wouter: Exactly :) What the hell were they thinking.
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Mate, it will even be unranked soon.
Nah, it wont.
If nobody played Duel, there would be no real problem. Now that 50+ people have played Perfect Agent, it's okay to remove? Its a shot in the gut.
I'm obviously pretty biased and minority, but I don't think there should be any change here. It's not broken, don't fix it. Just suck it up and get 3/6/9, be done with it, and never have a problem again.
Nobody should have any right to complain about Duel unless they are into double digit hours on the grind for DLTK 9.
The level is arbitrary, the points are arbitrary, the achievements are arbitrary, removing the level is arbitrary, but keeping it is NOT arbitrary.
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Mate, it will even be unranked soon.
Just suck it up and get 3/6/9, be done with it, and never have a problem again.
Pretty much the main problem with this level. Literally everyone can get 3/6/9 pretty easily and it's just a black hole that sucks away time that could be used on other levels that actually rank people effectively based on their skill level.
I don't mind the idea of keeping it on the ranks but stripping it of points/WR total. Good idea!
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the decision to keep PA 9 as a WR but not counting 6 and 3, OR not counting any of 3, 6 and 9 is the worst decision ever made in elite history
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Mate, it will even be unranked soon.
Nah, it wont.
If nobody played Duel, there would be no real problem. Now that 50+ people have played Perfect Agent, it's okay to remove? Its a shot in the gut.
I'm obviously pretty biased and minority, but I don't think there should be any change here. It's not broken, don't fix it. Just suck it up and get 3/6/9, be done with it, and never have a problem again.
Nobody should have any right to complain about Duel unless they are into double digit hours on the grind for DLTK 9.
The level is arbitrary, the points are arbitrary, the achievements are arbitrary, removing the level is arbitrary, but keeping it is NOT arbitrary.
ALL of this.
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the decision to keep PA 9 as a WR but not counting 6 and 3, OR not counting any of 3, 6 and 9 is the worst decision ever made in elite history
I don't understand what you mean.
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sorry i typed that a bit fast
what i mean is: the decision years ago (forget when) to keep Duel 9 as a WR on the Leaders Page, but not count 3 or 6, or not simply dismiss Duel altogether was a really half-assed, middle-ground, weak decision.
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It's not a real level, it's just a stupid miniquest. Keeping just PA was arbitrary (and only due to some WRs like Chicago 15 and Defection 6 being comparably common at the time). And the phrase "the oldest non-duel WR" is a pain.
Also:
http://rankings.the-elite.net/perfect-dark/leaders
#REMOVE
Sums it all, in my opinion.
Removing duel altogether isn't disrespectful at all to people who put time into getting 3/6/9/9/9 IMO, since to get those you just have to sit, wait, and repeat some 4 simple inputs (keep in mind that this is NOT an argument for removing it).
I completely agree that people who didn't complete the 3/6/9 are completely lazy and don't really deserve the "added benefit" of removing the level from the rankings, but that's a completely different issue, just like people who get sick times but their recordings are shit.
It's about time we stop this complete joke that is ranking a silly minigame just because it shows on the regular level list. Thanks Karl for making the poll.
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I hold the unpopular opinion that Duel should count as as a level and on the scoreboard. Just in the same way levels like Escape From Neotokyo, Take Em Down have 100+ ties in TimeSplitters 2. It's accessible in the Solo Missions just like other levels and has a best time table.
What if the level was slightly longer and a little more complex? Would it matter how the level was unlocked then?
I think removing 3, 6 and only keeping 9 is inconsistent and lame as well. Should definitely be all or none.
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I hold the unpopular opinion that Duel should count as as a level and on the scoreboard. Just in the same way levels like Escape From Neotokyo, Take Em Down have 100+ ties in TimeSplitters 2. It's accessible in the Solo Missions just like other levels and has a best time table.
What if the level was slightly longer and a little more complex? Would it matter how the level was unlocked then?
I think removing 3, 6 and only keeping 9 is inconsistent and lame as well. Should definitely be all or none.
Ace's best post since like 2013. :kappa:
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Here are my posts from the last topic. Sorry I was a bit more confrontational back then.
Differences between Duel and every other solo level:
- Cannot be unlocked by playing through solo mission. Can only be unlocked through something irrelevant to solo missions.
- Does not have an associated unlockable cheat.
- Does not involve a story line.
Please do not continue to say that the only excuse for duel not being considered a mission is that we 'don't like it'. Please at least do the respectable thing and read the points that people are making.
Yes you can select it from the solo missions menu. But it has obvious differences and it is obviously not like the normal missions.
Pluto is actually a good example of this type of situation. You can't use 'similarities' to include things in groups. You need to use 'differences'. I.e I could say let's include hologram and firing range because just like solo missions, they show the time achieved. Also firing range has bronze/silver/gold which is similar to agent/sa/pa. Therefore because of 'similarities' we should include them as well. Just like you cannot say 'duel should be included because it has a/sa/pa and saves best time' or 'needs to be included because it can be accessed from the same menu'. "Can be accessed from the same menu?" That's a joke argument.
Not a good strategy. Gotta look at what is different in how they function. Sure it was included in the past, but times change and people get smarter. Duel is obviously different, don't include it with the regular missions.
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I'm sorry, but no. If you go to the select mission screen the duel is not there. What you actually have to do is run down stairs and complete the firing range medals first. Please note that you do not find the firing range in the solo mission screen. Please also note that this is only 'level' that cannot be accessed by playing the solo missions alone. This makes it different to every other level.
Labelling something as arbitrary doesn't make it arbitrary. I think it's arbitrary that the duel is located in the solo mission screen. Where else would they put it?
Why do we need to disqualify it as a level? Because the main argument for people wanting it to remain on the ranks is because it's a level. Duh. But it is only a level as much as the firing range medals are levels. The only leg this argument has to stand on is the fact that it's located on the same screen as the other legit levels. But again, where else would you access it from?
The duel is a level, but it is in no way a level in the same regard as the other 20 levels. It is a different creature completely. Why is this relevant? Because this 'creature' is useless. 300 people have the agent wr when there are only 97 spots allocated for points. Same goes for sa pretty much. The level is 3/6/9 seconds long and involves spinning and shooting and no speedrunning. Maybe if the level was more legit it'd be fine. But actually when you look at it logically it's quite stupid to have it alongside the ACTUAL levels. Makes a complete mockery of the real levels.
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Phazonn I'm very happy to discuss this with you but please do not overlook points I make. For example, I just mentioned into my last post that the majority of the argument coming from other people wanting to keep duel on the ranks is because it's considered a level. Therefore it is entirely relevant to discuss whether or not duel is a level. Furthermore if Duel is a level, is it different from the other levels and should it be grouped alongside them?
Groups are defined by differences, not similarities. For example, racing cars. They have different classes. These classes are defined by the differences of motor etc. They don't say 'all cars have 4 wheels therefore they are all classed together'. They say 'what differences do these cars have in the output of the motor etc'. Or boxing, it's the 'difference' of weight that seperate the boxing classes. Not the similarities, because most boxers wear gloves and have 2 arms.
As with this game, it is incorrect to group duel with the other levels. Not because it doesn't have similarities. Because it does obv. Hell I can give you similarities between a turd and a rose, it doesn't mean they should be grouped. But there are distinct differences that does exclude it. Which have been addressed already.
Also just understand that there are many factors that influence my opinion on this. It creates a larger picture with everything considered. So pulling out one individual point and acting as if that is the 'make or break' argument really isn't necessary. If there was only one point in this hole argument that would be fine, but there are many and they have been listed. To break it down again though...
Given the obvious differences to the main missions, the ridiculous lack of skill required to turn and shoot, the short nature of the level, the amount of people who have the records, the fact that it's not involved or even related to the main story missions, the fact that the only way to unlock the level is through some random side quest also not related to solo, it should not be ranked with the other levels and people should not be getting 300 points that contribute to overall points for this joke level when actual speedrunners are busting balls to get 100 points on real levels. (if you ignore 90% of this paragraph and respond with 'thinking the level is a joke isn't a good reason to remove it' then you'll know you're a failure at life).
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There gets a point where it becomes ridiculous and irrelevant. over 300 people have 3 on agent, therefore why rank it? The rank is completely useless because everyone has the same time. Same goes for 6 SA. It requires no skills and everyone has it, so why rank it? There is no point because it doesn't 'rank' anyone seeing as everyone is ranked the same. Anyone with 3/6 has 100 points and if you don't have 3/6 you have 0 points. Is that even a rankings?
Like I previously said there are 97 positions available for points. When all of those spots become the same time that everyone has, there is no reason to rank it.
Don't talk about other easy wr's either. Archives 16 isn't anywhere near 97 people yet and 16 may not be maxed. Again this is another point in the long list of reasons why duel is stupid for being on the rankings.
Dark slayer your entire post was not a strong argument. Please make an actual case next time instead of just listing legit points and coming back with the seriously amazing rebuttle of 'this argument is not strong CHECK MATE BIATCHES I WINZZ!'
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If this were a positive attitude to have, there would be no scientific advanced, no medical advancement and no human rights advancement. Saying 'we're going to keep it like this because it's already like this' is too circular of an argument.
There are 2 sides to this spectrum; bad --- good. Just because something isn't on the extreme end of bad does not mean it is not open to improvement.
The argument of how you 'access' something I believe it is actually not valid. List me other examples of competition where this is a criteria? List me one sport or group of competitors who define what they are competing in by the way it is 'accessed'. While you are on that wild goose chase I'll just advise you that there aren't any. Because that criteria is ridiculous.
Imagine if someone presented an extra event for the decathlon. It's called the 5m meter dash and times are rounded down to the nearest second. Every person competing will likely get 1 second so it's useless but we feel like it needs to be done because... because humans have legs and can sprint and therefore we need to include it. We need to include into this event, which is a total concept of the human mind, because the evolution has given us legs and muscles to sprint and therefore must be included.
The programmers did not make the-elite.net. The creators of the game did not predict this community. The creators of the game made the game for the thousands of people who play it casually. To use their decisions as the basis of how we construct this competitive community is beyond retarded and shows the utter detachment from what this group actually is in essence (hint: an abstract idea not tied to actual reality).
The points presented regarding the level being removed actual deal with speedrunning, rankings, logistics etc. These are things that actually concern this community. The points presented for keeping the level deal with decisions made my programmers completely removed from this community. Decisions made before the game was even finished.
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100+ people getting war agent is a hypothetic. 350 people have duel 3 seconds is a reality. I'd much rather deal with that is actually going on then try to imagine how I'd feel when this imaginary and non existent event you mentioned happens.
The 'it's a solo mission' is a terrible, terrible argument because it completely ignores what is going on in reality. It is idealistic to the extreme. I would love to live in a world where things were perfect as well. But I live in a world where the majority of people have exactly the same time and it's still ranked for some reason.
Please do not make decisions in life based on 'ideals'. Make them based on reality.
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Reasons why duel should not be on the rankings...
- Lack of deviation: The majority of members have the exact same time on agent, almost half on SA. The point of any competition is to rank people according to their skill and achievement. If a challenge does not allow deviation of results, or if it does not sufficiently indicate differences in skill it is useless as a challenge.
- Lack of skill required: For Agent you only need to know how to hold right/left on the control stick and press Z. That is literally all you have to do. There is absolutely no skill involved, this is why MOST people have the same time. Why is a challenge included that needs absolutely no skill to achieve? Every respectable sport or competition requires a lot of skill to be highly ranked. Along with lack of deviation this makes it absolutely terrible. What is the point of this site? Shouldn't a challenge be ... challenging?
- Only unlocked through firing range: This makes is not a true solo mission and separate from the other missions. It is a side mission and the only reason it is selectable from the solo mission menu is because there is no other reasonable place to put it.
- Does not allow for improvement: We know for absolute sure the records are maxed. Why? Because 2 seconds out of each difficulty is spent waiting for the level to end once the opponent has been killed. 1 second of controlling Joanna and 2 seconds of waiting. Defection 5 shows that even when 6 seemed maxed to everyone, it could still be improved. Even archives 15 is at least POSSIBLE in theory. And the maxed times of these levels could only be achieved with EXTREME skill. i.e defection 5 is only 5 seconds long but needs incredible skill and precision. Duel are maxed, and not only maxed, maxed by most, and not only maxed by most, maxed by most easily.
- Times this easy should not have the same point value as other levels: Duel requires no skill to get the WR and yet it still gets 100 points. When every other level requires a lot of skill to achieve to get 100 points. Everyone can agree that duel does not require skill. It just requires timing.
This website exists to celebrate SKILL. To celebrate COMPETITION. To celebrate PATIENCE. To celebrate HARD WORK. To celebrate ACHIVEMENT. Duel doesn't satisfy any of these.*
*I'm sorry but playing duel for 2 hours doesn't qualify for patience.
Reasons for duel being on the rankings -
You can access it from the solo missions menu: You can access it from the solo missions menu.
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LOL
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"Clemens casually got 1:46 p2"
I understand what you're saying but unfortunately it's not accurate. Clemens spent THOUSANDS of hours working on his strafing ability and general control. He didn't 'casually' get that time. Actually he devoted several years of his life to becoming great so that he can be that good.
Lack of skill actually should be an important factor though. Sports are challenging. Popular, respectable sports are not easy. The best sports or competitions are the ones where dedication, hard work, patience and discipline allow you to achieve better results than someone that does not do that. Otherwise the competition is stupid, useless, not valuable, meaningless. This is duel.
Maian SOS, MBR and WAR are unlocked by completely all levels on agent, sa, and PA. All done through standard play through the main storyline. Duel is not. And yes, the other levels do play as standard levels, duel does not.
If 'method of unlock' is not an factor. Then 'menu from which level is accessed' should also not be a factor. And therefore all you are left with is, 'does this challenge meet the requirements to be ranked'? And it doesn't. Any example is MARIO 64. If the 'method of access' was a criteria you would have a separate WR for 1-120 stars. Literally 120 WR's. Is that the case? No. They CREATE each meaningful WR. So it becomes 16/70/120. We weed out all of the other categories. If we include every single sub category then they all become meaningless and lose value. However a lot of people do not understand this concept here.
"Duel 3 is a WR so it should be listed" - There is a WR out there for EVERYTHING. In fact you set WR's all the time every day. It's the value of the WR that is important. This means we should also list challenge WR's, firing range WR's, holo WR's, gadget WR's on the main page as well. They are WR's after all. We, as a community need to CHOOSE which WR's we list. WR's that have value and meaning and are difficult. Also we will need to include LTK and DLTK within the overall point system. They are WR's. And if this is a criteria then they MUST be included. Let me say again, yes it's a WR. But also everyone has the WR for successfully turning on a light switch. But should we list that? Everyone here has the WR for waking up in the morning. Should we list that?
I disagree with the points of 'method of access', and 'is it a wr'. But if you are going to use these criteria you MUST include DLTK and LTK times within the main rankings and include them in point totals. Also include them on the WR leaders page. LTK and DLTK are both accessed from solo mission menu, and both are WR's.
I would not make a rule saying that x amount of people need to have a time before it's removed. On other levels we don't see this clutter of WRs. We see correct deviation. We see good players being able to achieve a higher rank than people who did not put in the same amount of effort. It would be a judgemental thing. But I think only Duel qualifies for this because of all the point I outlined before.
Why does soccer have 11 players? Why does soccer not allow you to use your hands? Why is there a goalkeeper? To make it HARD. So that it requires skill so that it is interesting. If there were not goalkeepers the sport would be stupid. Would soccer be 'accessable' to everyone? YEah, it would be a lot more 'accessable'. Would it be the most popular sport in the world? Fuck no, people would think it's stupid.
People think giving everyone a WR is a good thing. I think it's a horrible thing. It makes having a WR not a big deal. It makes the game easier to access, but also makes it less respectable and thus ultimately not as popular.
I honestly cannot convey this as well as this scene from A league of their own. Please watch it to see my point!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndL7y0MIRE4
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Actually my points regarding firing range aren't really my arguments to remove duel, it is a counter argument to the claim it is a solo mission.
My main argument is that the level does not adequately meet the criteria for a legitimate speedrunning category. It does not allow sufficient deviation so that players with a higher level of skill who commit a larger amount of time will not be rewarded. The lack of skill required for the level makes it pointless to run.
If the challenge does not adequately reward higher skill or effort it's not a good challenge. Given that we have 20 levels already that sufficiently do this, there is no reason to add a 21st level which doesn't help at all to accomplish our goal (to rank and reward players who devote time and energy into speedrunning).
Right from the beginning duel A/SA does not allow sufficient reward for speedrunning over a couple of hours. Compare this to the other levels which require 100's or 1000's of hours to speedrun to get close to the WR's.
It is without question the odd one out. It is not in the same league at all as the other levels. In fact it is so obviously pathetic in all areas that if you stop for a second and get out of the 'it's a level' conditioning you will realise the stupidity of including it.
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This isn't about semantics, it's about clutter. Eventually you'll look for reasons to remove eg runway 22 too.
It's only logic to have the rankings reflect the mission list.
The reason for 3/6 taken off leaders is driven by the same as what's going on now. 3/6 were clutter very early on, and 9 wasn't (and still is arguably so or not)
It's because our subjective view of value changes. To make structural changes to the rankings based on subjectivity makes for a fragile base.
The discussion and eventual poll should be "How do we want to handle clutter?"
What we have in place is good (replacing 50+ initials by "(x people)")
If you want to change point values or remove a mission based on perceived value, it's much better to make a side rankings such as "duel hating rankings".
duel would be nowhere to be seen and could only be heard by sensitive ears, mumbling the phrase "do u even like (me)"
ok this latest sentence is a troll :)
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should obviously be on the ranks
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Someone call YE and we might have it removed by 2024 :)
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Sorry fuckboys
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Read Karl's latest post again.
There is a HUGE grassroots movement from some of the top players and elite influencers, including Karl, Ace, Goose, Jono and many others. Duel is likely to be removed from the rankings imminently. If anyone has any good reasons as to why it should stay (again, read Karl's post carefully) then now is the time to share them, before Duel is removed permanently from the-elite.net world rankings.
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I vote for keeping it on the ranks in its current form but removing the points you earn from it. So historically all the wr's will be visible, you'll still have the achievement of getting it shown, but the weighting of the time against the other levels will be stripped. It will be similar to the single segment runs as it will be listed on the front page (as it is now), your achievement will be ranked against others, but will not be assigned points on the main rankings.
Not sure if I mentioned this in my previous post (cbf reading it all) but ON TOP of everything I previously stated, having PD and GE at the same points is so much better. For the RARE ranks, for aesthetics etc. Having PD at 6300 points and GE at 6000 is gross considering duel is not a real level.
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Even as someone whose sole remaining points exist in Duel, I approve the removal of points from Duel :)
And like Karl, I've always bemoaned the fact that PD had 6300 points when GE had 6000.
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I think saying you'd want to remove Duel for consistency isn't very consistent. Sure having both games have 6000 points would be ~aesthetic~, but they're different games. So what if they have different points?
If anything, wouldn't it be consistent to leave it on the rankings? You'd get people asking "Why isn't Duel ranked like the others?" and you'd say it isn't a real level. Why? Because you don't unlock it from beating other levels? It's a level, with a timer, with objectives, that is playable on all 3 difficulties. This argument will forever just go in circles with conflicting opinions.
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I think saying you'd want to remove Duel for consistency isn't very consistent.
Don't take this as trying to start an argument or anything, but this is a strawman. I didn't say I wanted to remove it for consistency (in regards to points). I want to remove it for all the reasons outlined in my previous post. So please do not minimise my argument down so trivially. I brought this up because I am of the opinion having both games at 6000 points is far better, thus removing it has more benefits than previously outlined. The games are sister games, this is quite obvious. For the sake of the RARE ranks having equally weighted games this is a good thing for multiple reasons.
The games have different points only because of the addition of a side game on the pd ranks. If people asked, 'why isn't duel ranked' it would be due to the reasons previously outlined. I have a 3000 word post outlining the reasons duel should not be considered a weighted level but you strawman'd it down to a single sentence :(
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Yes, they are indeed sister games; yet they still remain different games. They can have differences, including point values.
I'm of the unpopular opinion that this entire movement of the removal of the relevance of Duel as a part of the rankings IS trivial; no one is getting brought down by it. Each one of your reasons in your large post can either be refuted or met with matching opposite opinion. This again, brings us back to this entire topic being a cycle of arguments/opinions/whateveryouwanttocallit.
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Each one of your reasons in your large post can either be refuted or met with matching opposite opinion.
And yet they have not been. If you don't care enough to not properly rebut that's fine, but saying 'this is trivial' doesn't give you an auto win by any means. And people ARE getting brought down about it, which is why there is a movement to remove it. Again, just because you think it's trivial doesn't mean it's trivial to everyone. Why even mention that you think it's trivial? It doesn't make sense to me, as obviously it's not trivial to those who wish to discuss the removal of the weighting.
Things aren't always about 'who is it hurting'. This is more about best practice and creating an optimal ranking system. Which I discussed in detail in my post (which hasn't been rebutted). The only point that has been rebutted is the fact that you and several others think it's a level. Which accounts for about 10% of the reason to remove it even if that were in your favour.
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*waits for some crazy strat that requires lots of skill and allows 5/8 to be possible*
Nah but yeah, the idea of having Duel on the ranks but not giving points is kinda nice. You preserve history on the website (which I personally find cool) and keep something a complete new player can do for a side "challenge". I also personally don't like (neither strongly agree or disagree) the argument that it doesn't have story parts (because it's in the hologram room where you save hostages in the CI level and do that training thing messing around in the institute, so it's not completely apart) and the one that too many people have the record, because well 3 is kinda dumb indeed, but 6 is not that easy (might take a few minutes) and 9 requires a little more skill (EDIT: just for instance it took me around 4 hours to get Cradle A 34 and 2 to 3 hours to get Duel 9 back then, it might be just me sucking or bad luck, but it's not trivial like 3).
Now from the perspective of a developer that have seen the code, it'll be a pain in the butt to refactor all those ifs and rework some of the queries. We'd need some good amount of testing to put that live (would be best in an alternate server).
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no one is getting brought down by it.
And nobody is getting brought up by it. which means the levels are entirely useless for differentiating between players... which is kind of the whole point of the rankings to begin with. pretty simple really
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An LS Original -
Improved Perfect Dark Rankings:
(https://image.ibb.co/eGPRxQ/Improved_PD_Ranks_2.jpg)
enjoy
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An LS Original -
Improved Perfect Dark Rankings:
(https://image.ibb.co/eGPRxQ/Improved_PD_Ranks_2.jpg)
enjoy
The time totals don't add up [:-?]
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I knew some smart ass would make that comment ^
Not at all surprised who made it lol
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Improved Perfect Dark Rankings
The time totals don't add up [:-?]
:nesquik:
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Doesn't the 1:37 on P2 SA look so sexy,
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should obviously be on the ranks
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Damn, all this agitation on that 1v1 minigame from Perfect Dark (what was its name again?). Haha, imagine if people start thinking it's an actual level and we give it points and WRs and shit, free 300 just by executing a button algorithm! :v
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I know the matter has been decided but I thought I would do an updated post to outline more precisely the rationale behind removing the points from Duel. I'll try to be as concise as possible.
The Duel is not a level in the same sense as the other 20 ranked levels. The Duel is a holoroom exercise.
More broadly, the Duel is a carrington institute exercise in the same vein as the firing range, gadget training etc. It is not a part of the main storyline missions. It is not unlockable through the main storyline missions. All other carrington institute exercises are not ranked alongside the main storyline missions. This point alone is already strong enough to warrant removal of the level from the main rankings. This doesn't mean that is HAS to be removed as we can rank whatever we want to rank. However given that it is a holoroom exercise and not a storyline mission we would need good reason to rank it (i.e the mission is interesting, complex etc).
The Duel does not allow for deviation of skill.
Given the simplicity of the exercise it does not allow for players to be sorted by their skill level. This is the main point of any ranking system in the first place. 3, 6 AND 9 are not tests of skill. Any player can get them. Therefore it makes the achievement valueless. If War 25 had 2000 ties, should it be removed? No. Every other ranked level is part of the main storyline mission set, therefore it does not matter if they have many ties. Even if dam agent has 300 ties it would never be removed. The reason this point is relevant in this particular discussion is because Duel is a carrington institute exercise, and therefore would need a good reason to be ranked.
The Duel would need a strong argument to be ranked in the first place, not the other way around (it should not be required to have to substantiate an argument to have it ranked, given that it is a holoroom exericse and not a normal mission).
Who cares if the Duel is ranked?
Gimmicky competition is always trivialized and not taken seriously. I.e tic-tac-toe, scissor paper rock competitions. In my opinion, ranking a gimmicky, useless exercise decreases the credibility of the rankings and lowers the overall impact of the game. The least amount of gimmicks that are included in any ranking system the more it will be respected and the better it will fair. My opinion stems from my desire to have the best ranking system possible.
I believe that having both PD and GE at 6000 points will also create a stronger bond between the two games and will have a subtle benefit of causing more cross over from one game to the other (if the games are ranked differently a player will be less likely to play the opposite game). I believe that a gimmicky exercise like the Duel will actually prevent players from playing PD and creating a full times page. The reason is that it is a time sink that does not reward skillful play, in the same sense that every other perfect dark level does.
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Yeah calling Duel a holoroom exercise is very accurate. It could be one of those CI little training missions and not a level, indeed, but the programmers thought it was a good idea to have it as a level. Back in 2001/2002 where we still were still finding out new stuff about the game (such as pausing quick weapon draw that made 3 possible), it made sense, but now there's not a single level on GE/PD that gets close enough to Duel on simplicity and lack of still. Again, 9 is not trivial but it's so much more simple than any other level, for sure. It's a good decision overall.
Just illustrating how it could look like, keeping it in the rankings and not giving points.
Main Times page
(https://forums.the-elite.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FbU4Xrv%2FScreen_Shot_2017_09_02_at_11_14_53_AM.png&hash=4ff72a7f2c72dff01ff06ac7506af4e8c8ed2c20) (http://ibb.co/c0wOya)
Duel times page
(https://forums.the-elite.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2Fi95VBv%2FScreen_Shot_2017_09_02_at_11_20_48_AM.png&hash=4795f9a433736ef55aa9f4b61677448c4be15911) (http://ibb.co/mbhoya)
(https://forums.the-elite.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FbWTaBv%2FScreen_Shot_2017_09_02_at_11_01_31_AM.png&hash=0d046d006d930e8b7202bed70266108366eb5537) (http://ibb.co/kPs2rv)
A player times page
(https://forums.the-elite.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FnbdaBv%2FScreen_Shot_2017_09_02_at_11_04_11_AM.png&hash=b540cd66d7e82560bce93b2463185d52133d6c4a) (http://ibb.co/n6URJa)
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Karl's first point is indeed good enough. It has always been. I don't wanna circlejerk this back, but taking a menu technicality over good sense in this is quite intelectually dishonest and opposed to the whole point of speedrunning.
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>opinions
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Well, I mean, aren't all categories arbitrary? :v Japap
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should obviously be on the ranks
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should obviously be on the ranks
Not an argument.
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should obviously be on the ranks
maybe if you keep being retarded and keep replying to yourself with pretty much no argument duel will stay on the ranks
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should obviously be on the ranks
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.
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Can't we just have a thread called "Revisiting Duel's Removal - 2017 ***Shitpost Only*** Edition"?
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well thats already what this is, the council already voted :nesquik:
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the real question is: when will any action actually be taken?
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when someone bothers to alter the code in the gitlab
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I'll try to get a confirmation email out of them (gitlab) again and do it. I'd like to implement a single segment tab on the player pages as well.
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I can give a hand too, already have the environment set up here. I guess we need a word from Thingy (and others) on this to define exactly how it's gonna be implemented. Still think we need to use another server/host to validate the changes, high chance of fucking things up.
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we need a word from Thingy
coil
I'll try to get a confirmation email out of them (gitlab) again and do it. I'd like to implement a single segment tab on the player pages as well.
Your account "sgt_ragequit" is already a member of the group, hopefully this helps.
how it's gonna be implemented
I could help answer specific questions...we probably have enough experienced contributors by now that someone can at least get a start. So far no one has made a Merge Request or discussion thread on GitLab.
use another server/host to validate the changes
I do keep an instance up that is available from the web (behind basic HTTP auth) for testing updates. I used to try to force Jimbo to specifically give a thumbs up before pushing each and every change to the live site, but it was pointless because he never actually looked at anything. This can be used just to share an in-progress idea or to validate a mostly finished patch before sending it to the live site.
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Awesome. I'd start with a first analysis resulting in a list of places in the code that are gonna need to be changed (reviewed by more experienced people there), then we can assign smaller issues/tasks (whatever you call it) around. Also isn't a good idea to create another main branch so people can checkout and push changes into it? Like master-removing-duel or something. It's easier to keep track and validate afterwards. Unless absolutely nothing is going to get changed in the main branches.
I can start some work if I get some spare time today.
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remove-duel or something
Yes, this is what we usually do.
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the issue for me is that they say my email is registered, but refuse to send a validation code so i'll probably have to make a new account and be invited again.
i'm used to branching development, making the changes, then throwing up a PR to merge, is that how we do it?
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Yeah, let me know if you need some help with setting up the environment, but pretty much everything is covered up in the README.
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I've created an issue there so it's easier to keep track.
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Thanks guys.
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Ok I think we're set now. The issue is #77 (https://gitlab.com/the-elite-net/rankings/issues/77) to anyone who wants to follow or contribute. The general idea is that we make merge requests (on the remove-duel branch) for one or several items of the list. I'll probably do some work today (starting from the top).
If someone notice something's missing on that list or have any suggestions, let us know.
(https://forums.the-elite.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpreview.ibb.co%2FbsPqOa%2FScreen_Shot_2017_09_11_at_2_28_31_PM.png&hash=48ae183f3d0152fad9824aed182d483d4fc2e2b7) (http://ibb.co/iTeeGv)