The Elite Forum
The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: Grav on February 13, 2018, 09:55:04 pm
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Hello and welcome. This thread's purpose is to provide a place for people to offer their money as a permanent cash reward pool awarded to anyone who proves beyond reasonable doubt that a player has cheated their run(s). I want this to be separate from the normal incentives thread as this kind of incentive has special relevance.
Rules:
1. Money is awarded only if the person found cheating is either a current top 100 ranked player or if they have achieved an untied world record at any point in their career.
2. Money is awarded only if there is undeniable evidence of a run being cheated or the council votes unanimously that the run is questionable enough to permanently ban the suspected player, not just remove or backroll the time or times in question.
3. All incentives last forever, however you may ask to remove your incentive at any time assuming nobody has been awarded it.
4. The run in question must already be a video posted on the elite rankings, not on an external site like speedrun.com.
5. Admitting your own runs are cheated does not qualify you for money.
6. Only players already ranked on the-elite.net prior to this post will qualify (to prevent alt account exploits)
7. Any special circumstances not covered that seem like a loophole exploit to get money and not to prove cheating will be subject to disqualification.
8. The entirety of the cash pool will be awarded every time a person is caught cheating.
9. If multiple people contribute to proving a cheated run, the money will be split equally between them. (Disputes will be worked out by the participants)
10. Failure to pay out your incentive will result in a forum ban until money is paid out.
11. You have 1 month to pay your incentive, starting from when the decision to award money is made.
12. Please post incentives in USD.
Contibutions:
-$100 (Grav)
-$25 (Flechr)
THE CURRENT BOUNTY FOR CATCHING A CHEATER IS:
$125
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council votes unanimously
Possible perverse incentive if those offering the bounty are also on the Elite Council :D
Of course, they'd be ridiculed right on out of their position if they pulled a stunt like that.
6. The entirety of the cash pool will be awarded every time a person is caught cheating.
This is going to create a very interesting market situation until more is known about the landscape! I was originally inspired to make a pledge myself, but then I realized it would be risky to pledge before giving the original pledge some time to mature. If it's going to be claimed in 1 day, my funds might be "wasted".
Maybe a partial depletion strategy would better encourage more participation? For example, if only 50% of a person's pledge went to the first cheat found after the pledge was made, 35% to the second, and 15% to the third, then new pledges would fill in alongside existing ones as more cheaters are found. Food for thought....
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:nesquik:
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https://rankings.the-elite.net/~Jim+Barrett/time/4183
This looks suspicious near 0:17 and 0:20. Can I haz hundred dollarz?
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added rule to make this apply only for players currently on the rankings before this post, to prevent alt shenanigans
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Excellent topic :pimp:
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Cough 00:58
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Cough 00:58
Cool! Awaiting your proof that the run is illegitimate.
Every 00:58 posted in the last 5 years has been proven to be legitimate. Not sure what you're seeing!
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Will Steven Z money be distributed?
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4. The run in question must already be a video posted on the elite rankings
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So this rule also prevents the SZ thing from counting also,
2. Money is awarded only if there is undeniable evidence of a run being cheated or the council votes unanimously that the run is questionable enough to ban the suspected player.
I will change the wording to include that it must be a ban and not just removing a player's time(s) to qualify for money. Just backrolling someone if they don't have proof is a different thing than proving someone cheated and permabanning them.
Modified rule:
Money is awarded only if there is undeniable evidence of a run being cheated or the council votes unanimously that the run is questionable enough to permanently ban the suspected player, not just remove or backroll the time or times in question.
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While you're at it, you should clarify what kind of unanimity you're looking for. I immediately thought of this rule while reading the recent topic about removing Steven Zwartjes:
in the unanimous (7-0) council vote to remove him.
From this post it is not entirely clear whether the two unaccounted votes were abstentions or simply council members still pondering their decision. If a vote was 8-0 with one member positively abstaining (whether that be to make a statement, defend a friend, or whatever), will that count for this type of unanimity or will you require all members to affirm the decision? Someone who just hasn't responded yet could conceivably vote no, as well.
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yea good point, i think it should require 9-0 because 99% of caught cheating cases will be unanimous since it usually is a smoking gun. or if its like 8-0, the other person at least has been clued in and is aware of the situation. as long as nobody opposes it and everyone knows, it should qualify
i mean im not looking to scam anyone who actually finds a cheater we didnt know was cheating by citing some technicality. as long as they dont try some obvious loophole BS i will pay them. the rule list is just to try and cover my ass for all the ways this could be exploited
would be nice if others fork up a few bucks to build the pool up too. if we got to like 500 bucks i could see a lot more people getting interested in trying to win it
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Please add $25 from me to the bounty.
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added. thanks mate
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I don't know why the bias in the elite council was immediately pointed out as the main loop-hole here...
Surely you could just get the now $125 by filming yourself splicing every video in your career well enough as to not get any attention, get in the top 100 or (if you're confident enough) claim an untied world-record, then release the video of you splicing all of them here and prove it's fake to win your ill-gotten money.
Or better yet: when a past-their-peak player wants to retire, they can just make a decent enough splice PB (recording the progress) and get a free $125 for giving the evidence.
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I don't know why the bias in the elite council was immediately pointed out as the main loop-hole here...
Surely you could just get the now $125 by filming yourself splicing every video in your career well enough as to not get any attention, get in the top 100 or (if you're confident enough) claim an untied world-record, then release the video of you splicing all of them here and prove it's fake to win your ill-gotten money.
5. Admitting your own runs are cheated does not qualify you for money.
Also, do you really think the proof moderators wouldn't be able to spot someone who splices every single one of their times?
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Did not read that part, sorry and thanks for pointing it out.
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It's important to increase reading comprehension skillset and verify exactly what you're looking at before calling people biased :nesquik:
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Hypothetically speaking: say some high profile guy with UWRs says to himself, "I need to quit, cold turkey, but I just can't do it. I always come back...." He comes up with a plan to splice a run so he's permabanned and all his work in the game is erased. You'd really want to just pretend that the real runs never happened?
Another hypothetical: some eliter wins the lottery. They offer Ace $5,000 to come back to the game, and an additional $5k for every second he can take off of the overall combined time. A hurricane destroys everything Ace owns. Ace needs money. Ace fakes runs for the $. Would you really be okay with wiping all of his current 25+ UWRs? Would you really be in favor of taking these games back to 2015?
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Hypothetically speaking: say some high profile guy with UWRs says to himself, "I need to quit, cold turkey, but I just can't do it. I always come back...." He comes up with a plan to splice a run so he's permabanned and all his work in the game is erased. You'd really want to just pretend that the real runs never happened?
Yes
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Hypothetically speaking: say some high profile guy with UWRs says to himself, "I need to quit, cold turkey, but I just can't do it. I always come back...." He comes up with a plan to splice a run so he's permabanned and all his work in the game is erased. You'd really want to just pretend that the real runs never happened?
Yes
The fact that you didn't answer the 2nd hypothetical leads me to believe that you draw the line somewhere between the first hypothetical and the 2nd.
I don't know why that line would be drawn anywhere past legitimately earned WRs. The wr is by definition the fastest time ever achieved legitimately. It is whatever it is, acknowledged or not.
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Hypothetically speaking: say some high profile guy with UWRs says to himself, "I need to quit, cold turkey, but I just can't do it. I always come back...." He comes up with a plan to splice a run so he's permabanned and all his work in the game is erased. You'd really want to just pretend that the real runs never happened?
Another hypothetical: some eliter wins the lottery. They offer Ace $5,000 to come back to the game, and an additional $5k for every second he can take off of the overall combined time. A hurricane destroys everything Ace owns. Ace needs money. Ace fakes runs for the $. Would you really be okay with wiping all of his current 25+ UWRs? Would you really be in favor of taking these games back to 2015?
yes and yes
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The fact that you didn't answer the 2nd hypothetical leads me to believe that you draw the line somewhere between the first hypothetical and the 2nd.
I don't know why that line would be drawn anywhere past legitimately earned WRs. The wr is by definition the fastest time ever achieved legitimately. It is whatever it is, acknowledged or not.
There already exists an untied that isn't on the rankings because the player was removed.
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Hypothetically speaking: say some high profile guy with UWRs says to himself, "I need to quit, cold turkey, but I just can't do it. I always come back...." He comes up with a plan to splice a run so he's permabanned and all his work in the game is erased. You'd really want to just pretend that the real runs never happened?
This is pretty much the exact reason why I spliced in 2007. It didn't work, and I regretted it immediately, but I think there's something very serious that (I hope), we're mature enough to discuss nowadays.
In criminal proceedings, sometimes people are found guilty, but other times they're found "not criminally responsible" by reason of mental health issues (that's what it's called here in Canada, it has different names all around the world). In those cases, the person is instead sent to a secure mental health facility where a doctor oversees treatment, rather than punishment. And sometimes, if that person's treatment is successful, they can be released back into society; ready to rejoin and take part with their newfound health.
The vast, vast majority of time, when someone cheats or splices in speedrunning, it's because they were struggling with things like addiction (to gaming, which is real), depression, bi-polar disorder, or any other number of mental health challenges.
Now, I am not saying this is an excuse for cheating at all. It isn't. But I do find it interesting how the legal system has found a way to distinguish between those who commit crimes out of pure intent & malice, and those who commit crimes out of mental distress.
The online world sure talks a lot about progress, empathy, etc etc, but isn't a "zero tolerance" rule against cheaters kind of fascistic in a way? Shouldn't the goal instead to help rehabilitate the speedrunner? Or at least, get them the help they need to deal with their addiction, depression, or other mental health challenge?
I find it incredibly interesting that the general zeitgeist of most zoomers & Gen X-ers online today is to be empathetic, caring, progressive, understanding of the challenges of others, etc; with one exception: when someone cheats in speedrunning. When that happens, they basically turn into neo-fascists ready to deplatform, unperson, and remove any remnant of their existence online. I can only say this because I've stood in many perspectives on this issue in the past. I've spliced myself in the face of personal issues; and I've been the bad, fascistic guy trying to get others permabanned for having spliced.
I truly do believe that the goal, when a splice is found, should be to rehabilitate the speedrunner in question and get them the help they need; rather than strike down with an iron fist and enact a lifelong punishment & humiliation. I hope that most here would agree with this nowadays.
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I would more or less agree with what Goose is saying, that it should be something judged on a case by case basis. But it's certainly an interesting thing to talk about especially in more interesting cases like Monteith, where he instantly confessed and the decisions at the time seemed to have had some form of mob mentality is my impression.
I'm not implying any of these cases should be revisited neccessarily, but it's an interesting topic none the less.
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I would agree, however I feel like rules that aren't well defined and static lend themselves to bias one way or the other, and the question ultimately comes down to WHO is making the decision. In the context of the legal argument, this is why juries can be bribed/threatened. The human element truly is unpredictable.
Would inevitably boil down to the more liked you are in the community = the more lightly you will be treated.
I don’t think there’s any optimal solution besides everybody just doing what they’re supposed to be doing properly, which is obviously an unobtainable goal.
At the end of the day there isn’t really any way to regulate banned users just making a new account under an alias anyways.
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I think there should be a zero-tolerance rule for cheaters simply to dissuade it from happening. It is made clear to every member of the community that being caught cheating will result in a ban. I know there have been exceptions (https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=23806.msg468231#msg468231), but I think the rule should stand as-is. I know it's harsh towards the guilty party, but I don't really see another option that would successfully dissuade cheating. If you have one, please share it.
I find it incredibly interesting that the general zeitgeist of most zoomers & Gen X-ers online today is to be empathetic, caring, progressive, understanding of the challenges of others, etc; with one exception: when someone cheats in speedrunning.
Believe me, there's far more than one exception, but that's neither here nor there.
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The fact that you didn't answer the 2nd hypothetical leads me to believe that you draw the line somewhere between the first hypothetical and the 2nd.
I don't know why that line would be drawn anywhere past legitimately earned WRs. The wr is by definition the fastest time ever achieved legitimately. It is whatever it is, acknowledged or not.
I think the second hypothetical is fairly ridiculous, to the degree that it's not worthy of discussion. A player faking a run to effectively ban themselves has already been on the table within the past 6 months.
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I don't think it is a good idea to have this topic stickied in its current state. Grav, who has created the topic and sponsors the major part of the bounty, has not posted since 2018 and, from what I can tell, has left the community. It's doubtful whether his part of the bounty would be payed. The topic addresses a very relevant topic. It staying at the top of the board may suggest that it is still up-to-date to new users and makes it somewhat "official".
The topic should be un-stickied or another user should take it over and update the original post.
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The fact that you didn't answer the 2nd hypothetical leads me to believe that you draw the line somewhere between the first hypothetical and the 2nd.
I don't know why that line would be drawn anywhere past legitimately earned WRs. The wr is by definition the fastest time ever achieved legitimately. It is whatever it is, acknowledged or not.
I think the second hypothetical is fairly ridiculous, to the degree that it's not worthy of discussion. A player faking a run to effectively ban themselves has already been on the table within the past 6 months.
Yeah you dismissed it b/c you're on the fence (at least) on that one. It isn't at all absurd for some rich person to pay Ace to come back and it isn't some 1 in a billion that Ace could struggle financially for some reason or another. You don't have to answer but I will ask again: if someone paid Ace for UWRs and he faked a run for the money, would you be for removing all Ace's legit UWRs?
It isn't as though we can't distinguish between real and fake runs.
I think there should be a zero-tolerance rule for cheaters simply to dissuade it from happening. It is made clear to every member of the community that being caught cheating will result in a ban. I know there have been exceptions (https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=23806.msg468231#msg468231), but I think the rule should stand as-is. I know it's harsh towards the guilty party, but I don't really see another option that would successfully dissuade cheating. If you have one, please share it.
The ban isn't necessarily a deterrent, it could potentially be an incentive to fake a run. In that case it wouldn't even be a punishment for the splicer, it would be a punishment to us all (if the right person spliced a run, namely Ace). As for the better punishment? Case by case basis I think, but I would prefer keeping all their real times that are WRs, removing all of their non-wr times, and greatly increasing the proof standards for the individual cheater. Along with a 1 month ban just to give them time to let it all sink in.
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The ban isn't necessarily a deterrent, it could potentially be an incentive to fake a run. In that case it wouldn't even be a punishment for the splicer, it would be a punishment to us all (if the right person spliced a run, namely Ace).
Not sure what you mean here. What benefit could someone get out of being banned from the rankings?
As for the better punishment? Case by case basis I think, but I would prefer keeping all their real times that are WRs, removing all of their non-wr times, and greatly increasing the proof standards for the individual cheater. Along with a 1 month ban just to give them time to let it all sink in.
I agree with you that case-by-case basis is important, and I admit that my only real justification for a zero-tolerance scorched-earth policy is to dissuade potential cheaters. My main hangup is that, on the internet, you don't know who you can and can't trust. I think letting cheaters off easier will just lead to more cheating, because they know they can get away with it. At the very least, cheating again after having been caught once should be grounds for an immediate ban. Period. I'm not budging on this one.
To quote Flechr:
every third chance I've ever given was a massive mistake
everyone deserves a second chance, very very very few deserve a third
no one deserves a fourth