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The Big Three Plus One => General Chat => Topic started by: Pauliwood on July 30, 2019, 10:29:16 pm

Title: *** Elite Fantasy League 2019 Feedback Thread ***
Post by: Pauliwood on July 30, 2019, 10:29:16 pm

Another League has come to a close, we hope you found success, met you goals and had fun! Please feel free to post what you liked about this year's league, things you didn't like and possible changes/suggestions you have to make league better. See you next league!

Title: Re: *** Elite Fantasy League 2019 Feedback Thread ***
Post by: HarryCoupe on July 30, 2019, 10:40:47 pm

I liked having doctor light on my team

Title: Re: *** Elite Fantasy League 2019 Feedback Thread ***
Post by: Dr. Light on July 30, 2019, 10:42:40 pm

I liked the length, thought it was a perfect amount. Daily Doubles are way too strong for someone like me who was free for most of summer. The idea of DDs is great to have people try new levels or levels they would never try otherwise(I finally tried control, statue, and aztec and and very excited to return to them to improve). Lower the bonus it gives to 1.5 or maybe dont let weekly and dailies stack on each other. idk exactly on how to fix it. Overall I had a great time playing PD to my fullest potential and playing GE levels that I never would have tried or thought were bad in general

Title: Re: *** Elite Fantasy League 2019 Feedback Thread ***
Post by: Cal on July 30, 2019, 10:51:20 pm

I'm kinda a contra point to Light M.D.

The DD made playing some levels super attractive, and even decent value when I didn't have heaps of time to play - my sweet Deep Sea A 8 pointer on DD+weekly made it attractive to play even though I really on had an hour.

PD in general is OP for league, but not sure that's a bad thing - the more we get less bad times on PD the more even worse things will drop off the bottom and become pointless.

The first week of League was super active, then it kind of trailed off a bit - I know there's a ton of effort in setting it up, but if we had a lower effort 1-2 week leagues more regularly could be fun

Edit: random thought, something like an 'optimise PD' league week could be cool. Times that are 10% slower than WR, but not PTR minus 1, are worth 10x points or something wacky
Get as many N/As as possible to post Defection SA 35-38 and make 40 the PTR or something

Title: Re: *** Elite Fantasy League 2019 Feedback Thread ***
Post by: vitorr on July 30, 2019, 11:34:09 pm

Overall I had some nice fun with it, elaborating strategies for the DD/Weekly bonuses and playing them whenever I could. It really motivated me on my recent PD sprint specially on some levels that I probably wouldn't play so soon, and it also made me want to play a level on other difficulties because of it. I guess that's one of the goals of the league so worked well for me at least. The teams started well balanced in theory but as usual talented players with tons of N/As on either game (mostly on PD as that gives more points, at least for now) make a huge difference, but don't know how we could improve that though as it's part of the nature of the draft and such. Having a separate chat with the team was really cool too, as usual. Also updates were on point and the spreadsheet system worked just fine (even though it could be improved I guess it's enough already without too much effort). Thanks to everyone that contributed to it :D

For future leagues a few improvements come to mind. Nothing major as the base format is very well stablished imo (the draft, teams size, length etc), just minor stuff.

- Create more unexpected/creative bonuses overall. I feel like it gets a little predictable after a while and also the bonus are more fun to play at the start when teams are more even and players are more motivated.
- Bonus for WRs and UWRs are still a little off I guess but this is a little more complicated to elaborate.
- Personal ranking and prizes (like MVPs or something)
- A little more "advertising" overall, like a separate part on the site for the league and more evidence of what it's going on. We did some league status updates but it'd be nice to have someone officially set for that and do it more often / make it more available to general audience (twitch, twitter, reddit and so on).
- When league is set we could make a community effort to get PD/GE carts on different versions (either by lending or helping find good deals). Maybe asking for all players to post in a the league spreadsheet which version they own or are willing to get should help already.

Title: Re: *** Elite Fantasy League 2019 Feedback Thread ***
Post by: EliminatorJr on July 31, 2019, 12:01:39 am

I tried my best and had a lot of fun. I think DDs definitely might be too advantageous for people who have pretty blank times pages (PD specifically) and are clearly pretty capable of getting at least okay points on those levels. For example, Dr. Light and I both finished in top 5 overall scorers with over 50% of our points being from bonus points. In the future I'd be curious to see if we could try something new but still find a way to give incentive to playing all the levels (or most) of both games without making it hard to compete without being able to play every day.

Anyways, I look forward to next year.

Title: Re: *** Elite Fantasy League 2019 Feedback Thread ***
Post by: SammoSammy on July 31, 2019, 01:13:13 am

EDIT: Looking over this post, it comes off as very whiny and like I'm a sore loser (this is true and has been verified by Snopes). I'd just like to take a moment to congratulate Tea and Biscuit, and I wish to take nothing away from their victory. They played the game as it was presented better than the competition, and they deserve the win.

I'm going to solve league with one simple idea:

SEPARATE GOLDENEYE AND PERFECT DARK

Perfect Dark is insanely OP for league, and aside from some absolute nutjob kook idea like giving GE a blanket multiplier on all times, there's no real way to fix it because not enough people want to play PD outside of league to optimise it (I wonder why?  :nesquik:)

So separate them somehow. Have GE league for one month, then PD league for one month. Could even put them at opposite ends of the year if you wanted. Go nuts. But they should be separated. The insane difference in the effort/points ratio is just too large a chasm to bridge. But don't take my word for it, let's take a look at the data.

LEAGUE RESULTS WITH ONLY GOLDENEYE

Spoiler

Team Rankings

• The University of Keenisiology - 5365
• Los Kebabos - 3336
• Datadyne Shills - 3210
• #Zoomers - 2552
• FH Patrol - 2403
• Tea and Biscuit - 1573
• Hot Off the ZED Press - 1260

Individual Rankings

• Samuel Scholten - 3173
• Blake Carroll - 2061.5
• Josh Schwarz - 1082.5
• Troy Nookin - 949.5
• Rayan I. - 904

LEAGUE RESULTS WITH ONLY PERFECT DARK

Spoiler

Team Rankings

• Tea and Biscuit - 13134
• The University of Keenisiology - 7981
• Los Kebabos - 7888
• Datadyne Shills - 4707
• #Zoomers - 4150
• Hot Off the ZED Press - 1887
• FH Patrol - 1641

Individual Rankings

• Michael Lightbody - 6930
• Adam Verbsky - 4333
• Randy Chapman - 3522.5
• Riley Burke - 3475
• Stephen Ghiandoni - 2681

LEAGUE RESULTS WITH ONLY GOLDENEYE (NO BONUSES)

Spoiler

Team Rankings

• The University of Keenisiology - 2615
• #Zoomers - 1505
• Los Kebabos - 1422
• FH Patrol - 1398
• Hot Off the ZED Press - 845
• Tea and Biscuit - 768
• Datadyne Shills - 593

Individual Rankings

• Samuel Scholten - 1456
• Blake Carroll - 948
• Josh Schwarz - 693
• Troy Noojin - 613
• Mathieu de carufel - 440

LEAGUE RESULTS WITH ONLY PERFECT DARK (NO BONUSES)

Spoiler

Team Rankings

• Tea and Biscuit - 6196
• The University of Keenisiology - 5216
• Los Kebabos - 4220
• #Zoomers - 2321
• Datadyne Shills - 1768
• Hot Off the ZED Press - 1336
• FH Patrol - 682

Individual Rankings

• Michael Lightbody - 3415
• Adam Verbsky - 3393
• Randy Chapman - 1750
• Riley Burke - 1613
• Stephen Ghiandoni - 1228

And the results with removing only Daily Double and Weekly Bonus look very similar but with smaller numbers, Ace and Clemens appearing on the GE Individual List and Datadyne Shill's ranking being slightly different (2nd in GE).

If we take the totals from these sets, we get the following number for points gained:

GE: 19699
PD: 41391
Ratio PD:GE = 2.10:1

GE (no bonuses): 9146
PD (no bonuses): 21739
Ratio PD:GE = 2.38:1

From this alone, we can see the value of Perfect Dark points is INFLATED to over TWICE the value of Goldeneye points, simply by the virtue that the game in unoptimised. With the games in such vastly different states from a perspective of optimisation, it seems like a misstep to include them in the same competition where the points have the same value. I have a feeling that people are going to dismiss this as a PD hater MAD he didn't win, but look at the numbers. Look at how consistently the PD numbers are over double the GE numbers. If you don't think that's a problem, then fine, but I do think it's a problem when people are so heavily disincentivised from playing one of the games.

Also, just for fun, I applied a blanket 2x multiplier to all GE points and bonuses. This was the result.

Spoiler

Team Rankings

• The University of Keenisiology - 18288
• Tea and Biscuit - 16327
• Los Kebabos - 14598
• Datadyne Shills - 10647
• #Zoomers - 9170
• FH Patrol - 6446
• Hot Off the ZED Press - 4423

Individual Rankings

• Michael Lightbody - 8196
• Samuel Scholten - 6346
• Riley Burke - 5185
• Adam Verbsky - 4986
• Randy Chapman - 4643.5
• Blake Carroll - 4217
• Janne Pitkänen - 2862
• Jakob Birkenes - 2739
• Stephen Ghiandoni - 2681

Spoiler

Side note: All cuts of the data without varying bonuses (No DD, no DD or Weekly, no WR bonuses) with the games combined put Keen U on top  :pimp: This doesn't mean anything just thought it's worth pointing out that if Verbsky didn't have a life we'd likely have smashed it  :nesquik:

Title: Re: *** Elite Fantasy League 2019 Feedback Thread ***
Post by: Happens on July 31, 2019, 11:26:38 am

Forewarning: I wasn't in league this year so everything is from the perspective of a casual observer

The only thing I think could do to be improved is to make the weekly bonuses a bit more original. Not like there's a problem with "All PD times" but I liked "Regicide" way better, for example.

Re: what Sammo had to say, yeah PD is pretty OP for league, but them's the breaks and it encourages more people to put times up for the game.

Title: Re: *** Elite Fantasy League 2019 Feedback Thread ***
Post by: flukey lukey on July 31, 2019, 07:05:01 pm

i like the idea of splitting GE and PD into separate leagues. the only issue i can see is whether the activity would be as strong - it might be, can't know until it's tried i guess.

if this were done / tested, i like the idea of having them 4-6 months apart to allow some breathing room and keep the drafts exciting.

Title: Re: *** Elite Fantasy League 2019 Feedback Thread ***
Post by: vitorr on July 31, 2019, 09:01:48 pm

Separate leagues seems like a good idea but the format would have to be changed a little bit, I think, and bonuses would have to be super creative to make it more interesting. It's worth giving a shot for the next time. Also we wouldn't need to way a full year for it (e.g: a GE league in six months).

But just to be clear I also like the current format with both games, so basically saying that we should get leagues going more often. Whatever format we decide will do.

Title: Re: *** Elite Fantasy League 2019 Feedback Thread ***
Post by: tharixer on August 01, 2019, 01:04:46 am

I feel like separating the leagues is gonna introduce less people to the opposite games. I do like the idea of doing some sort of 1 month of GE and 1 month of PD though

Title: Re: *** Elite Fantasy League 2019 Feedback Thread ***
Post by: pogopopex4 on August 01, 2019, 01:49:38 am

While separating the two games into different leagues introduces a few problems, such as introducing less players to the game they play less, and possibly having to restructure the format, I am strongly in favor of this idea. GoldenEye players who aren't huge fans of Perfect Dark are probably not going to play Perfect Dark and vice versa. It isn't hard to look at a game and decide "not for me, thanks."

That being said, yes, league as it stands is a great way to be introduced to new levels. From my experience, though, the outcome didn't raise a whole lot of new interest (sorry pd players.) I feel players could reach their highest potential playing solely the game they enjoy most, and, if you happen to like both games, you can still play in both leagues, so it's really a win-win for everybody.

Title: Re: *** Elite Fantasy League 2019 Feedback Thread ***
Post by: MadmanFlechr on August 09, 2019, 01:57:56 pm

I voiced my opinions on league several times throughout the summer, so what I'm gonna say now many have already heard.


LENGTH:

Never again should a league ever ever be longer than 2 months ever if anything it should be shorter. 2 months maximum timeframe, any longer is too much and towards the end even two months felt a little long to me.

Also no playoffs, I still think they're dumb.


BONUSES:

The goal of balancing league should be to provide an opportunity for as many competitive teams as possible. In a perfect world, this means all 8 (7 this year but that's beside the point) are vying for the top spot throughout the summer. This is obviously not a perfect world; there are going to be teams that do not perform as well as others and there will be teams that pull away. The issue I currently see with the bonuses as they stand is that it allows a couple teams to too easily take off and greatly distance themselves from the other teams, possibly lowering their desire to put in effort in an attempt to win and only exacerbating the point differential over time.

As such, I feel that the bonuses need to be redone. I don't have the answer to this problem and I'm not sure any one of us does, but I'm sure together we'll come to a conclusion that promotes a more competitive league in the future top to bottom.

I'd like to echo some ideas posted above by others that I talked about earlier in the summer shortly before leaving for vacation. A flat 2x bonus on points is (quite frankly) way too much given the disparity between GoldenEye and Perfect Dark. Sammo went into great detail on that subject so I won't waste my breath, or rather fingers going through that again. This 2x bonus is even more insane when combined with the 1.5x with the weekly bonus, which quite often occurred, allowing for several players that had more bonus points than actual points gained on the rankings. At the end of the day (or rather 2 months), what is left to show after league is the gains on the rankings, so I personally feel like that should be the focus of players, rather than just trying to get something quick and easy out of the way to net 100+ league points with some mediocre time.

I like the idea of trying a 1.5x bonus instead of the 2x, and perhaps also making it so that the Daily and Weekly can not stack, giving players the option of going for one or the other, chasing shorter term goals with the Daily Bonus or going after long term, personal goals and still taking advantage of the point bonus from the weekly. This would also be helped by getting rid of the 'blanket' Weekly bonuses such as "All PD times" or "All Agent times," and instead trying some that are more specific or at least not quite as broad.

WR bonuses should also maybe be looked at, although if we change the way the other bonuses work, WR bonuses might just balance themselves without needing adjustment.


TEAMS:

8 is fine. Definitely no more than 8. Less than 8 allows for more aggressive swapping which promotes a healthier league in my opinion.


OVERALL:

Great league, congrats to T&B on their victory. I had a ton of fun chilling in VC for most of June and tearing through the entirety of Perfect Dark in 3 weeks. Thanks to the staff and my boy Pauli for helping things run smoothly and efficiently, although I'd suggest having multiple staff members next year who can work on keeping the sheet up to date and not put all of that work on one man's shoulders. Special shoutout as well to all of my teammates that went through KeenU, you all did great and I'm very glad we got to share this experience. Cheers.