The Elite Forum
The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: flicker on December 02, 2019, 01:34:30 pm
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So I got Depot DLTK 1:21 after deciding to switch levels at the end of a random session of Dam 00/Streets LTK. vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx5ttbAnhEo
Note: It was brought to my attention that the video is badly interlaced as a result of my settings being reset on my new computer. I have fixed this for future recordings.
So, I forgot to show evidence of cheats off. The session video also does not prove it.
I could wave my hand and be like "whatever, i'm mod so it's fine" but I really can't be doing that with integrity.
I think the only fair way to go about handling this is with a community poll.
This poll will close in 29 days, at the time of next months proof call. The winning option will be the proof status of Depot DLTK 1:21 for the December 2019 Proof Call.
Please take this into account:
- I have always upheld the highest integrity with the rankings
- The run is clearly not using cheats, I take damage in the drone room
- The level is a seriously grueling grind that rivals Cradle DLTK in terms of guard luck and completion odds
- The run is still imperfect, with a large noticeable time loss at the ending
- I have allowed other players a one-time pass for the same or similar mishaps
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Keep in mind that I am a not a player and only a casual follower of this community.
Please take this into account:
- I have always upheld the highest integrity with the rankings
- The level is a seriously grueling grind that rivals Cradle DLTK in terms of guard luck and completion odds
- The run is still imperfect, with a large noticeable time loss at the ending
I don't think any of these points should be considered valid arguments for voting one way or the other.
- I have allowed other players a one-time pass for the same or similar mishaps
Can you give examples for this? While I don't think other players' runs should've been approved for the same mistake, I would not oppose your case if you aren't the first person where an exception is made.
I could wave my hand and be like "whatever, i'm mod so it's fine" but I really can't be doing that with integrity.
Handling it like that would've been a very bad idea indeed.
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- I have allowed other players a one-time pass for the same or similar mishaps
Can you give examples for this? While I don't think other players' runs should've been approved for the same mistake, I would not oppose your case if you aren't the first person where an exception is made.
(https://i.imgur.com/OeiU873.png)
Source: September proof call.
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Please take this into account:
- I have always upheld the highest integrity with the rankings
- The level is a seriously grueling grind that rivals Cradle DLTK in terms of guard luck and completion odds
- The run is still imperfect, with a large noticeable time loss at the ending
I don't think any of these points should be considered valid arguments for voting one way or the other.
I didn't post these for the sake of argument, just some factors that I personally consider. They are some of the minor things I take into account when I handle similar proof mishaps.
In cases where the problem isn't obviously clear cut like video quality, you have to take into account the totality of the situation.
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Please note
Your name must be recognized among the community to be officially counted in the poll. Basically this means no "anonymous" votes.
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i made a decision a few years ago to remove any subjectivity to these type of discussions and approach them as a robot.
the run doesn't show the required evidence to meet LTK / DLTK proof standards, so it's not adequate proof.
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I agree. As much as it'll suck to dupe it, it's the right thing to do; especially considering it is an untied.
We have written rules in place and adhere to them. If we just frequently choose to make exceptions, there's no point in having guidelines and regulations. The rules require you to show the cheats screen and 007 settings, so it's an easy decision to make.
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Please don't hint or reveal the details of the poll results.
Luke, I edited your post. Regular users cant see what is winning after they vote. You're a moderator so you can. I set the poll up this way to avoid any outside influence, which you have yourself declared to be void of, which I do appreciate.
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thanks for editing my post, i wasn't aware of your intentions in secrecy, my bad.
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The run doesn't meet the proof standards. While players have been given a single pass for minor mishaps in the past, you are THE proof mod, and as such you should be held to a higher standard than your average LTK player. Also, given the run is an untied, the run itself should be held to a higher standard than your average 80 pointer or whatever.
It does absolutely suck, because we all know 100% that you did get this time. But if we don't even enforce the rules on the management there is really no point in even having them and we should just go back to community consensus for all matters. I don't think that's the way to go personally, so I have to vote the run doesn't meet proof standards.
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Okay, so I was admittedly kinda in a panic when this all happened. When I was checking my raw recordings I must have been so panicked that I just couldn't click on the right recording or something. I was SURE that I clicked record while I was on an aborted mission screen.
Then when I was at work I just felt really bad about the whole thing, I was going to wait a month to make this poll but decided to do it now and get it off my chest.
Got home from work today and checked out the session vid. It starts on the four folders screen. This session vid will be my evidence of no cheats.
REGARDLESS
I still highly value all the votes and input given in this thread and on Discord.
I have now locked the voting. The results from today are 18 - 10 in favor of proven. Take that with a grain of salt as the poll was only open for a few hours.
Edit:
Here's the session vid, it has about 2h10m of Dam 00A, then I switch to Streets LTK for about 35min, then play Depot DLTK and get the run within 5 minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZYBZx97hus
Edit2:
KevinDDR has been so kind as to fix the interlacing on the 1:21 and I'll have a nice video of the run soon.
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Excellent, open, and thoughtful thread!
I'm in agreement with the opinion that we as proof mods need to be held to a higher standard, rather than giving ourselves a free pass when things go awry. I view it as one of the prices of doing the job.
I value your integrity Kyle - whatever the results of a community poll you still put it out there and recognised that in such a position you *could* let it slide.
That being said, the community is forgiving (sometimes, lol) and the poll shows that. But my two cents is what I stated above.
Gladly all this is avoided because they WERE shown afterall :pimp:
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If we want people to take this mode seriously, there should be no free passes. Being forgiving today leads to being laughed at for having lax proof standards in the future. I voted NEEDS PROOF earlier.
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I also voted for "not proven" (I was the first person to vote in fact :smirk:) but I think it's important to note that there's some interesting precedents for different parts of this argument.
- From the ancient days, when Jimbo's Archives Agent 0:16 was rejected despite the GE proof mod watching the run performed live, we have precedent that verification by "referee" as Twin Galaxies would call it, is NOT proof in the Elite. More generally, simply KNOWING that a time is legitimate is not proof enough.
- As has been pointed out, runners are often given warnings about their proof before future runs are rejected. There IS, interestingly, precedent for warnings being applied to untieds. I have allowed Illu's Air Base 1:12 with a warning regarding interlacing, and Clemens's Investigation 2:26 with a BIG warning regarding the frame drops present in the recording.
- Polls like this in extenuating circumstances have been used before to aid in the moderator's decision. Karl's Chicago PA 0:26 was allowed (by dsx) following a poll regarding his skipping past the endscreen before the time was shown.
Just interesting things to note.
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I won't vote on this, because I don't have much experience or insight in the LTK/DLTK categories, but I will give my opinion.
This seems to be tied to the question of how serious you want the categories to be taken: Is it just a funny little side league or is it a serious/competitive speedmode.
Also: Low proof standards will always lead to cheating (attempts).