The Elite Forum
The Big Three Plus One => General Chat => Topic started by: Happens on February 06, 2020, 09:48:56 pm
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One of the more controversial elements of Goldeneye and Perfect Dark speedrunning is the abundance of version differences between the English, J, and PAL versions. Some levels are advantaged or disadvantaged on one version or another, but it's usually not a huge deal. However, sometimes it is a huge deal, which can drive even the laziest of gamers to want to get their hands on a PAL console.
For more general information on all the different versions of Goldeneye and Perfect Dark, check out Flicker's thread on the topic: https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=21748 (https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=21748)
In Goldeneye, some levels such as Jungle, Train, and Caverns SA are PAL advantaged, to varying degrees. Unless you’re a top player or a level specialist, you probably don’t need PAL. Even then, players such as Boss and Clemens still don't have PAL after all these years and still have top times even on PAL-advantaged levels. Your mileage may vary.
Perfect Dark is a different story. To get points on Deep Sea Agent or SA, you need PAL. On Maian SOS Agent, the world record strategy uses NTSC, but the majority of players will only be able to get points on the level on PAL due to the slower lift cycle. On top of that, Attack Ship Elvis completion odds and Skedar math are better on PAL. It’s much more essential for PD players.
How to Acquire a PAL Console
The most reliable way is that you can physically travel to a PAL region and bring one back with you. This is what I did, since I lived in England on a semester abroad. I didn’t bring my NTSC console with me and instead bought a PAL console while I was there. This obviously isn’t an option for everyone, but if you are planning to visit Europe or Australia sometime soon, you may want to pick one up while you’re there.
You can also bribe a European eliter to send you a PAL console. Make it worth their while as they're doing you a favor. This may require flattery and/or adoption of the metric system. Decide if it's worth it for you.
Aside from that, your only real option is EBay. When you see a listing, make sure to check that the seller will ship to America and get a shipping quote first. Generally it’s better to buy from Europe because the prices will be less than from Australia. UK to US shipping is generally more reasonable than you would think. To save money, try to get a console that is just the console, no cables, controllers, or games. If you care about having S-video quality, make sure to buy a charcoal N64, otherwise you will be limited to composite, as the funtastic series drops S-video support. Try to buy from a listing which shows the bottom of the N64, where you should see NUS-001(EUR). One other addendum, if you see a controller with a bead on the end, it’s not a third party controller. Some PAL region controllers have a ferrite bead on the cable for unexplained reasons.
Your North American power supply will work with your PAL console, so there’s no need to pick up a new one. Aim for getting just the console and nothing else.
Ultra Budget
Go to a meet with someone who has PAL. The classic way for PD players to fill out their timespages is by playing Deep Sea A/SA at a meet. This of course requires you to have friends.
Budget
This method mostly consists of buying a PAL console and hoping it works with equipment you have on hand or playing directly through your capture card. Unless you have a unicorn consumer CRT, your CRT will be unable to display PAL in full color. Some TVs will display PAL in black and white with varying degrees of cropping. Others will refuse to display a signal at all. It's a complete crapshoot and unless you manage to get in touch with someone who has tried a PAL console on your specific CRT, you have no way of knowing.
As long as you have a capture card or LCD which takes composite, you can play through these. The benefit is that these are readily available and will let you play PAL in full color. The drawback is that the lag can be crippling. Players like BK (on LCD) and Banz (through Amarec) have still managed good times despite this drawback, but do be aware.
Medium
As an epic gamer, you likely already have a low-lag gaming monitor. If so, by buying some additional hardware, you can make your setup more or less equivalent to CRT. This piece of hardware is called the RetroTINK 2X.
It will quickly linedouble your N64’s signal on the order of a few scanlines’ worth of lag. It works with both NTSC and PAL signals and allows you to play with much lower lag on a digital display. To get the lowest lag possible, you will want a monitor that advertises low input lag. Check the “input lag” value at www.displaylag.com (http://www.displaylag.com) for this information.
Each monitor has its unique quirks with the RetroTINK. For example, my monitor doesn’t accept the RetroTINK’s audio over HDMI, so I have to split it separately. Other monitors might not like the 4:3 aspect ratio and you will have to set it to 4:3 yourself. For the most part, though, nearly all monitors should work with it with some fiddling.
Recently, RetroTINK released a Pro version of their original product. Both the original and pro will work, so you can decide for yourself which version you want to purchase.
www.retrotink.com/product-page/retrotink-2x (http://www.retrotink.com/product-page/retrotink-2x)
www.retrotink.com/product-page/retrotink-2x-pro (http://www.retrotink.com/product-page/retrotink-2x-pro)
If you’re going this route, you NEED to buy a cable specifically made for PAL consoles. Buy from www.consolegoods.co.uk and you’re guaranteed to get a cable that won’t produce a picture that is too bright. I tried to buy a cheap one on eBay and it was just an NTSC cable, which makes it unplayably bright on a monitor.
Ballin’
PVM’s! They’re beautiful high end CRTs that are talked about extensively in retro gaming circles. In addition to supporting lots of professional features, the picture generally looks far better than consumer CRTs. If there’s a PVM for sale near you, Google it to see if it supports PAL. If it does, you’re in luck! Unfortunately, PVMs are somewhat of an expensive rarity these days. If you already have one or can find one for a rock bottom price, it can be worth it.
You can also buy an RGB modded PAL console and put it through an OSSC. Getting your hands on an RGB modded PAL console is tough enough, even for Europeans, so you’ll need to keep your eyes peeled. I don't particularly recommend this method as it's comparatively very expensive for a handful of levels.
Capturing PAL
For most people, this is dead simple. Change to PAL in Amarec or OBS and you’re done! Remember that PAL is slightly taller than NTSC, so adjust your stream overlay to compensate if necessary.
For those of you who primarily record to VHS, a DVD recorder, or other physical media, you will probably have a tough time. Your footage is almost certain to come out a garbled mess that will not pass proof call. Plan on using a capture card.
Conclusion
It’s easier than ever to play PAL in an NTSC region. For any serious PD player, it’s a must have. If you are a GE player and really love Train or Jungle, it might be worth the investment for you as well. Hope this helps!
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Amazing thread mate, hope to see more people pick up PAL soon (@drlight)
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So you need a PAL controller too? I don't remember that when playing at VA.
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Pal-B specifically in OBS
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So you need a PAL controller too? I don't remember that when playing at VA.
No, controllers are region free.
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Great post
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Hi, curious as to how Cavs SA is PAL advantaged? I would have thought the absence of the first body armour on PAL would make it much harder. If it's something else then why doesn't the PAL advantage carry over to Agent / 00?
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Hi, curious as to how Cavs SA is PAL advantaged? I would have thought the absence of the first body armour on PAL would make it much harder. If it's something else then why doesn't the PAL advantage carry over to Agent / 00?
BA Doesn't really matter on SA. The level becomes really laggy due to all the explosions you're causing by completing the objectives. This is where PAL gains the advantage having to render less frames. On Agent it's just a raw strafing level where you're not causing explosions (besides maybe the box boost), so you want the highest FPS possible, which is NTSC/NTSC-J. And 00A you need the body armor for a 95% better chance of completion, so NTSC-J is the only reasonable choice there.
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Firing rate of AR-33 is also faster on PAL - helps to complete Obj B faster in WR strat, and also Obj C in old strat (no mine throw)
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I use an Acer ET241Y monitor with the Retrotink. It's pretty decently priced, I got mine off of ebay for like 110 USD or something. I bought one for myself after really liking the Retrotink + this monitor setup at GDQ (I used it for my PAL Perfect Dark Agent speedrun there). They had a bunch of these monitors in the practice room.
https://www.newegg.com/acer-um-qe1aa-a01-24-full-hd/p/0JC-000P-00650
I really recommend the Retrotink setup, not just for PAL, but if you don't/can't get a CRT.
Also it's supposed to only be a few scanlines of delay with this setup, I can get 2 pixel precise laser skips with the same consistency as on a CRT, so it's like 99.9% delay/lag free.
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Double checking: You can use your regular NTSC video cables (red, yellow, white) with a PAL console?
What about expansion packs for PD?
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Double checking: You can use your regular NTSC video cables (red, yellow, white) with a PAL console?
What about expansion packs for PD?
The video cables will work, but they may not display totally correctly with regard to brightness.
Expansion paks and Power supplies are universal.
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Double checking: You can use your regular NTSC video cables (red, yellow, white) with a PAL console?
What about expansion packs for PD?
I would strongly recommend the PAL cables mentioned in the post. They are amazing, especially for capture with svideo if your PAL console is a regular grey/charcoal one. The price is very reasonable too.
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Hey, so let's say I buy the N64 PAL AV cables from consolegoods.co.uk... will I be able to use any old AV cables (male to male ends) *from* the splitter, to the capture card? Or will I need PAL AV cables for those as well? Should I try to find a PAL splitter?
Do such things exist? PAL splitters and PAL male-to-male AV cables?
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Only need the PAL cable out of the console.
It has extra resistors to bring down to normal video levels, so you can use your existing splitter etc.
You can even just use the PAL video cable on your NTSC console without issue, that way you just leave the power supply, av cable and controller in place and just switch the console over (and your record settings obv)
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Thank you for that info, Cal! I will get in touch with the consolegoods seller.
Do we think these PAL cables will solve the problem of cropping, within the capture card itself?
On the TV, the game is playable... everything is within view of the screen. But on all of my DVD Recorder, Xsplit and even OBS, this is what the game feed looks like. Are we sure there's not also an issue somewhere along the line of cables & splitters?
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That's what my DVD recorder looks like when I have it set to NTSC and try to record PAL - do you still have the remote, hope yours has got a switch to change video modes.
How are you running your splitter - does it send separate outputs to your capture card, or is it in chain after the recorder?
If it's in chain after the recorder then that's probably what's causing the issue.
If you split two lines out separately to send one each direct to CRT, capture card and DVD recorder then it's probably also a settings issue for the capture card.
Will need to change the properties, suggest PAL_B or PAL_D as video decoder in OBS.
Also worth checking you haven't forced the resolution for cropping - PAL is taller 640x576 rather than 640x480 for NTSC.
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You had me excited for a second there. I never really played too deeply in my DVD Recorder's menu, but it doesn't appear as though there's a switch to change video modes. I found some stuff I'd never seen before, like being able to choose the "quality" of the record (gonna try recording in HD next time). But I couldn't find any way to switch the DVD Recorder to a "PAL" mode.
But you did make me realize something... I could just switch the cables in such a way to make this setup:
PAL N64 -> NTSC N64 Cables -> North American splitter -> North American AV Cables -> GVUSB2 capture card -> Xsplit with PAL_B setting.
Sounds good, right? Sounds like it should work ok?
Sadly, this is what it looks like. Better, but we're still not quite there. The recording almost wants to freeze sometimes when mashing A through the endscreen, and only loads back up once the level loads. Plus of course, this just isn't acceptable video quality.
I've made sure there is no cropping on the layout or anything like that. The GVUSB2 input is in PAL_B mode and is NOT cropped in any way. Yet, the bottom portion of the screen is cropped still. I'm not quite sure how that all sorts out.
I can't imagine the PAL N64 cables are going to fix *all that*, will they?
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The new cable will fix a fair bit, this was my video with a bad PAL S-video cable (check the video sync across the top at the teleport - timestamped) - https://youtu.be/de1bHNC6y1c?t=109
Which shows a few similar artifacts (look at the top of the screen in the teleport, and colour dropping out for a couple of seconds).
S-video in particular seems to be a bit weird with PAL and some cables, reckon you might have better luck with composite in your current set up.
Might be worth googling for your DVD recorder manual, might be a back door - mine has a switch for video modes by holding Eject+Stop for example.
Edit: Just rewatched - think that most of the video artifacts are from the cable and bad S-vid connection (brigtness, colour banding, video sync, bad lines...)
I've got no idea about the cropping though - can you force a resolution in device settings XSplit? Might be worth trying OBS if not and forcing it to 640x576 or 704x576
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No, PAL cables won’t be able to make your DVD recorder accept the signal. There’s more or less nothing you can do to make it appear in color and not shaky. I don’t know the full specifics, but a PAL decoder requires extra hardware and there are few if any DVD recorders that would have had that function inbuilt in North America. It’s different for Aus because importing NTSC media was certainly a thing. There may be a fix for cropping, but I don’t know it. Chuya/Taka/Cedric were all able to capture the full resolution of PAL but I don’t know how they did it and it might have been specific to their Japanese VCRs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTyDSvyZn0E
Notice how even though you can't read the timer, it's obviously present, compared to Goose's video or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6nQws6PkHU where it's just not even in the frame at all.
There’s no difference between PAL and NTSC video cables once you have the signal from the N64. You can use the same splitter and AV cables that you normally do and it will work fine, with the obvious caveat that whatever you’re splitting it to may not like the signal very much.
Here are two examples of NTSC vs PAL cables. The first link is with an NTSC cable, the second is with a PAL cable. It makes a slight difference in the capture but it's a massive difference in person. However this was on a Retrotink. If you're playing on a NTSC consumer CRT in black and white you might want the extra brightness, although it will appear bright in the capture as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNFD7VlP-F4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHYpFzQLpq8
Unfortunately I can’t really speak to how to fix Xsplit as I’ve never used it, but I’ll do some reading for you. My current method is doing a window capture of Amarec for my streams. I have a pretty weak computer and it works out for me.
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there is no such thing as PAL AV cables (assuming you're talking about this) (https://i.imgur.com/iz6JGMZ.png)
The N64 consolegoods.uk PAL cable results in fixing the brightness/video glitches that usually happen with an NTSC N64 AV cable. I use the svideo output with my retrotink, and the AV output to my GVUSB2 to capture it (you have to change the GVUSB2 settings for it to be used with PAL though). This is because PAL N64 cables have 75 ohm resistors in them whereas PAL N64 cables do not. (read here https://www.zedlabz.com/blogs/news/image-too-bright-on-your-retro-nintendo-console-learn-why-not-all-cables-are-made-equal)
It's possible that it may fix this issue on the DVD recorder too, but I'm not sure. The brightness/video glitches looks like what happens with NTSC N64 cables being used with a PAL console though. It should definitely fix the capture for GVUSB2.
Your pal console must be a grey/charcoal one to be able to use the svideo though, or the svideo will simply not work. if that is the case, you can just split the AV like you normally would with NTSC.
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https://ebay.us/nPTZAY
This is where I got my cable and have had no issues since
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Thanks for the advice mates. I'll order one of the PAL N64 AV cables from consolegoods and see where we go from there. It'll probably take a few weeks to arrive, so I doubt there will be much troubleshooting to do until then. I should have done this years ago, but hey.
Once those arrive, it sounds like it'll just be a matter of fiddling around in Xsplit, OBS or Amarec (which I've never had installed before) to get the correct cropping setting for the capture.
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There's ways to run dual OBS instance to get raw capture on the same PC as stream too.
https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=23109.0
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On the back of this if people want cheaper PAL consoles I live in the UK and am happy to sort one out, to the US its around $65 for a console and like $15 for shipping but can be cheaper depending on what i can find just HMU on discord
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For RGB Mod users, this was the seller i bought my PAL console from. PAL with RGB Mod is quite rare.
Seller: https://www.oldskoolconsoles.com/
My PAL RGB Quality:
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good work Harry, doing a great service for the elite, seems like UK has the cheapest PAL consoles in general?
that PAL quality is insane Ricky, probably the best PAL capture quality in history
also RWG, did you ever order that PAL cable?
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https://www.retrotink.com/shop
which retrotink should I get, which would have the best chance of making PAL N64 work on an HDTV?
also I still haven't ordered the PAL AV cables yet, but maybe I'll do that soon.
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https://www.retrotink.com/shop
which retrotink should I get, which would have the best chance of making PAL N64 work on an HDTV?
also I still haven't ordered the PAL AV cables yet, but maybe I'll do that soon.
https://www.retrotink.com/product-page/retrotink-2x this is what I use, it's pretty much 100% chance lol (the image quality will still probably be awful without those PAL AV cables)
edit: apparently the consolegoods website guy is not responding to emails, buy this instead quickly https://www.ebay.com/itm/233004398550
ideally the HD TV should have low latency for best results, mine is 4ms (acer et241y)
I'm curious, why HD TV now?
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Well, I want to give myself the most possible chances of success, whether that's PAL cables or a Retrotink or whatever it may be. It sounds like I'll need the PAL cables regardless though.
Thanks for the links; unfortunately the PAL cables one says "may not ship to Canada". Sigh, COVID-19 is really messing with international shipping and thus making this PAL quest much more challenging.
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Well, I want to give myself the most possible chances of success, whether that's PAL cables or a Retrotink or whatever it may be. It sounds like I'll need the PAL cables regardless though.
Thanks for the links; unfortunately the PAL cables one says "may not ship to Canada". Sigh, COVID-19 is really messing with international shipping and thus making this PAL quest much more challenging.
I mean may not ship to Canada isn't a no necessarily, hopefully they can ship to Canada (could even just have it shipped to the US and then to Canada if desperate)
In my experience, sometimes NTSC cables can produce reasonable outputs even though the cable was for NTSC, so you could maybe find some old/first party cables and hope they work out
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i seem to have a pretty good PAL shipping system going now so if anyone is interested feel free to jump in my DMs
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https://www.retrotink.com/post/2x-minis-in-stock