The Elite Forum
The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: RWG on February 20, 2020, 06:30:38 am
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My friends,
It seems to have been a topic of discussion over the last 24 hours, that Eric "berg" Bergmann's incredible Runway Agent 0:21 Untied World Record; a record so incredibly remarkable & epic that its repercussions and influence will continue to be felt for decades to come; may not meet the upcoming February 2020 proof call. As an untied WR, it's subject to an even higher level of scrutiny than most other WRs or PBs, and they can be subject to an "instant" 48 hour proof call.
The issue with berg's Runway Agent 0:21 is that "ghosting" is visible throughout the run, as seen in this example frame:
(https://i.imgur.com/zUX32Rb.png)
Now look, there might have been eras in our evolutionary history where the flames of war would be fanned, and pots & cauldrons would be stirred, and longread posts, livestream rusings & produced videos would question whether this run; again, possibly the most historic run in GoldenEye history; should be BANNED & REMOVED. But this isn't one of those eras. This is the era of CEEMI. So to celebrate the incredible accomplishment of Runway Agent 0:21, to empathize with runners who aren't video encoding masters, to elevate the video of the run to the masterful quality it deserves, to motivate others to produce high quality video captures, and to inspire *everyone* to come together in times of strife and conflict; this is what we're going to do.
We're holding a VIDEO RESTORATION CONTEST! That's right, you heard it here first! This struck me as a great idea after seeing this recent restoration of the first ever recorded motion picture; "Arrival of a Train at La Ciotat". See the tweet below:
https://twitter.com/doodlewhale/status/1225796918128906243
Absolutely inspiring. And we can do that too, with Runway Agent 0:21.
It would be helpful if berg uploads and disseminates any raw files he has of the recording, even if there are multiple, extremely large files. The more files, the more information to pull from, encode & restore. With these files, surely someone in the community will be able to restore a fully proven, verified, proof sanctioned video file of the run. I know there are some encoding masters in the community, so I'm actually really excited to see what we'll all come up with throughout this contest.
Submit your restoration of Runway Agent 0:21 as a post in this thread. Submissions are due by 11:59pm UTC on February 29, 2020.
Hopefully we can come together for the greater good and do something really awesome & inspiring, helping out a mate, and celebrating this truly remarkable moment in GoldenEye history!
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FAQ
Q: What do we win if we win the contest?
A: The respect and camaraderie of fellow mates, the sense of accomplishment in having restored something, and joy of having done something selfless for others. Plus I'll try to sneak in the restored recording in an upcoming video.
Q: If Runway Agent 0:21 gets backrolled, doesn't it also mean all these other records in the past should also be backrolled?
A: Nope. First, hopefully a restored video comes along, and the time doesn't get backrolled. However, think of it with this analogy. Just because players today get banned for splicing or cheating runs, would this also mean that people who spliced or cheated in the past should be removed as well? Some may argue yes, but applying rules retroactively is always messy. Some ghosted runs were missed in the past, since they didn't have the same level of scrutiny as arguably the most important world record in GoldenEye history. The claim that "these other runs must be retroactively removed" is some kind of fallacy, possibly special pleading.
Q: Why does Runway Agent 0:21 get this special treatment that other records would not have received?
A: It's Runway Agent 0:21. Exceptional items require exceptional treatment. Ideally, the knowledge that will be shared in this restoration quest will help others avoid making the same mistakes. There's always time for learning and improvement, and this is a great opportunity for us all to do just that.
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Happy restorations and I look forward to seeing some great efforts soon!
Goose
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Thanks Goose for making this post, I appreciate the help I've already gotten on this (Dusky, Kev) to see if the current file can be deghosted or improved.
I also hope that at the least, whatever happens with this vid, that it'll serve as a gut check for everyone to make sure their settings are correct and optimal, which I did not do. So I take blame for this even being a discussion but hope something positive can come from it.
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np I got you :pimp:
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What you call ghosting is what in video processing terms is called interlacing (the "i" in 480i, 1080i etc). This is why you can see these lines. To view interlaced video properly it has to be deinterlaced, so that a full frame video is created and the "lines" disappear.
The opposite of interlaced video is progressive video, where each frame contains a full frame of information. I think the N64 outputs 240p (240 lines of resolution, no interlacing, progessive scan), so when capturing from the N64 the capture device should be set to recive a 240p signal, and no interlacing/deinterlacing should be performed when encoding the videos.
best regards
Axel
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So to "restore" this video, we need to look at the raw video capture file;
If it is progressive, it should be encoded using progressive scan.
If it is interlaced, it has to be deinterlaced when encoding.
best regards
Axel
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Here is a version of the video that I, a Proof Moderator, would absolutely, unequivocally accept. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8lHsHblb8c)
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This is the era of CEEMI
Oh god please no. I can't put up with a month of ceemi let alone a whole era :-X
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so in essence there is basically lost information in there and getting it back would require you to photoshop individual frames to resemble what they should look like which would take ages.
Honestly it sounds worth it. I might make a version tonight just cutting out all the ghosted frames. Most probably wouldn't even notice and it'd probably pass proof call.
I suppose there's also the option of teaching AI to recreate the lost frames, like they did in the example "Arrival of a Train" video :nesquik: but yeah, despite our common skill, this is probably still a little beyond us.
Thanks for looking into this Dusky.
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https://rankings.the-elite.net/~Perfect+Ace/time/204936
Certain frames of this recent untied world record are also iffy if you want to look at everything through a microscope :v
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A good start would be to compress the raw file using a lossless codec and then make it public. The youtube video has already gone through youtube's compression algorithm.
The next step would be to write an avisynth script and applying basic deinterlacing filters to the video.
Next, you might consider more advanced filters that could sharpen the video and improve quality.
You then render that script into a video clip with a lossless codec.
Then you take that lossless video and re-encode into MP4 at max settings and upload to youtube again.
At least that's how I'd do it ... 10 years ago.
EDIT: This (http://avisynth.nl/index.php/External_filters) is a good site with a bunch of avisynth filter to play around with. There are ones for both deinterlacing and deghosting.
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Yes, that's a great idea!
@berg, can you share the RAW video file with us here? Upload it to Google Drive or OneDrive or Dropbox or something like that?
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Update: there were a lot more ghosted frames in this video than originally anticipated. I counted 21 ghosted frames just on the first "down the conveyor belt/ramp" sequence. At first I thought it was just 1 frame every now and then, so you could cut it out without noticing, but this is not the case.
Will update further as the restoration process continues.
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I suppose there's also the option of teaching AI to recreate the lost frames, like they did in the example "Arrival of a Train" video
lol
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You may laugh now, but the technology for video restoration, deepfakes, AI, etc, is improving at an incomprehensible, and perhaps scary, rate.
Here's a guy who, using a Chinese app called ZAO, in 8 seconds of computing on a mobile phone, replaced himself seamlessly as Leonardo DiCaprio in several movie clips:
https://twitter.com/AllanXia/status/1168049059413643265
The technology to "teach" an AI deepfake bot to replace the ghosted frames in berg's Runway Agent 0:21 in only a handful of seconds probably already exists, and will probably be as simple as clicking a button, within only a few years. Never underestimate the ability of gamer nerds. I don't discount the possibility that someone will code an app to do exactly that (replace ghosted frames specifically in GoldenEye speedruns) in the not-too-distant future.
This sort of technology has all sorts of incredible repercussions in speedrunning, beyond just restoring proof videos, and will require a huge paradigm shift in order to keep up & counter the reality of more, possibly indestructible, fake speedruns.
But restoring Chuya's Attack Ship 2:06, for example, to perfect quality, will be fun when it's as simple as clicking a button.
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Here's a lossless clip of it:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1POx156fqJduCl_OzsuODRUS4Dx-lDTuD/view?usp=drivesdk
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tbh the original quality video looks pretty good, the ghosting from the interlaced frames would be pretty hard to remove.
I could imagine some hypothetical machine learning model that one can make trained on pre-fucked video and post fucked video, I dono.
That might actually be a way to fix it, but difficult.
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Yeah, the lossless recording quality is great. A big improvement, thank you for sharing it Berg!
While the ghosting may not be repairable right now, at least we're giving ourselves the best chance of being able to repair it later on, as technology develops. This is obviously mega-history and I'm glad we have the lossless file.
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I think that this thread actually brings up a good point about the current proof policies. First off, what is the purpose of the proof policy? Is it in fact solely to prove that the time was achieved, or is it also to ensure a minimum aesthetic quality for notable runs? If it is strictly to act as proof, then I think this situation and Goose’s idea in this thread suggest a larger problem. That is to say, a video which does not meet the current proof policy can be manipulated to pass proof with current or near-future technology.
We can look at this one of two ways. The first way would be to say that if we allow the manipulation of a video to make it pass proof call, then the original video already contained all of the necessary information in it to prove the time (the manipulation process can’t add more proof that wasn’t there). If we accept this reasoning, then the actual manipulation is moot, because the original video contains the necessary proof and will suffice. The actual manipulation would only be required if there were minimum quality standards enacted solely for aesthetic reasons. If not, then this would suggest that proof standards should be lowered to the minimum quality that can be manipulated to pass proof (ie. some ghosting, low volume or noise should be allowed as long as game sounds are distinct). I believe this to be a bad idea.
The second way we can look at this is that if videos that wouldn’t pass proof call can be manipulated to pass, then the manipulation process has somehow added or manufactured proof that was not actually there. If we accept this reasoning, then proof standards should be raised above the maximum proof that can be manufactured by these processes. In this case almost no video would pass proof as manipulation techniques become more advanced, since there is no way to prove that the video was not manipulated to cross the proof threshold. This would suggest something like hand cams and controller input recording would be needed along with the gameplay footage to prove a time. I think this is an even worse idea.
I think the best and easiest solution is actually to just not allow video manipulation for proof call, and manipulation should only be acceptable for something that would already pass in a raw form but can still be improved for aesthetic purposes (similar to how a raw video is sometimes used for proof but a video with music or heavy editing is used to announce the time). For these reasons I think it should possibly be considered cheating if any manipulation is detected in a video used for proof call.
This is just some food for thought. I think the decision to let 21 stand is the right one, especially because I don’t think ghosting is more or less likely to result from the faking of a time rather than just poor recording techniques (I don’t know much about video editing so I could be wrong), because Berg never received a warning about declining video quality (as others have), and because the lossless file shows a large improvement. I just wanted to point out that I think it’s a bad idea to start allowing the manipulation of videos in order to make them pass proof call.
Also full disclosure, none of this really affects me too much because I'm terrible at this game.
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are people actually taking the idea of backrolling such an amazing run and uwr for the a few lost frames?
thats insane. please don't do that.
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With where we are today with video proof call it should be simple - No one should be able to edit their videos prior to a submission - We all get the idea of presenting the UWR/TWR is monumental achievement however the video should always be captured in its raw unaltered format and sent in this way - After its captured and accepted then and only then should the player go in and edit it the way they wish - Anything else is questionable
You may tell me you guys have been doing it this way for years and it adds the "cool" factor on submission which simply thats all it is is cool for the community but do it after its been approved
Essentially if you're a top player or a player who is going after WR's or near WR runs is to start your own stream - Twitch has been around since 2013 which is an easy platform to capture raw footage controller input binds etc - You may say well thats an expensive way to capture video proof for the average Joe which I would tend to agree but there has to be better solutions moving forward
If someone would capture a UWR/TWR off stream at the end of the day it should be accepted of course as long as it passes (today's current) standard - Otherwise theres a platform thats been around for 7 years to hop on and make the investment in yourself with speed running and recording for not only the community however yourself and proof calls
In your twitch stream you can add incentives on your twitch page just like with the forums topic here to help pay for the actual expenses of starting your stream - Can also try something thats been around since the 1980's called a credit card with its aid to your help your expenditure for streaming
Ill even start an incentive off right now to get you started:
Whoever achieves :21 runway agent for the next month I will donate $3 to them so this offer is good till the end of March 2020 (must be streamed on twitch)
Additionally if you're setting up new to twitch (meaning you don't use twitch yet to stream) - I will donate $10 for the :21 on runway agent and the additional $7 will go directly to your stream costs
Now think if we could get 10 or even 20 more people like me to donate for this type of incentive by joining twitch and streaming for the ongoing movement for video recording lets do it
Good luck on the runs
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Can also try something thats been around since the 1980's called a credit card with its aid to your help your expenditure for streaming
This is literally the absolute worst advice you can give anyone. If you can't afford the $100-200 needed to set up a good quality capture setup, it is an UNBELIEVABLY brain dead idea to put that on a credit card that you already know you can't imminently pay off. Yikes.
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Can also try something thats been around since the 1980's called a credit card with its aid to your help your expenditure for streaming
This is literally the absolute worst advice you can give anyone. If you can't afford the $100-200 needed to set up a good quality capture setup, it is an UNBELIEVABLY brain dead idea to put that on a credit card that you already know you can't imminently pay off. Yikes.
lmao economics 101 right there.
"I don't have the money rn but im sure I will at the end of the month"
*3 months later*
"I owe $500?!"
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Mates, let's keep things within the bounds of CEEMI values. If a post doesn't follow the CEEMI values, simply ignore it, or don't post it.
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Mates, let's keep things within the bounds of CEEMI values. If a post doesn't follow the CEEMI values, simply ignore it, or don't post it.
K. So Goose has the right answer here.
The rest of you -- c'mon.
Seven posts were deleted because they were both off topic AND disrespectful. It's okay to stray from the thread a little bit, but not like that.
Three users cannot post anywhere on this forum for 24 hours -- use this time to think about how you can treat people with respect in the future.
It is okay to disagree with another poster's idea, but don't insult the person if you want to make a counterargument. Also, as a group you can't just pile on mocking another user either. That's probably worse.
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In the spirit of keeping things CEEMI I'm gonna offer up a FREE capture card to the next new player who wants one and can post photo proof of any time worth 30 points or more in GE or PD! Guaranteed ghost-free! :nesquik:
(This is not a joke!)
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I made a quick encode with decombing filter (removes interlacing artifacts) in handbrake (free program). Took me like 5 minutes. Used a high quality preset. I think it looks better now with the interlacing artifacts mostly gone. Best is to capture in 240p to prevent deinterlacing the first place. It's not 100% removed like I would get on my own capture setup (capturing RGB in 240p) but it looks fine to me tbh.
Some ghosting is still there that looks to be present in the raw file. It's not really a raw file because it's an mp4 that looks to be already encoded (using blend deinterlacing?). A raw uncompressed .avi capture could easily be reencoded to fix this.
Judge for yourselves I guess: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MdkdgZYeFqzj2qdBqwPURmbj4ekvayVL/view?usp=sharing