The Elite Forum
The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: deletedprofile.u on February 20, 2020, 07:40:39 pm
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There are a few points to be made here.
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First off, congrats Eric, the run is truly legendary and a true example of what speedrunning represents on a wide basis: it bopped 153 people, it got a community hyped, and will definitely continue to inspire across the board.
Getting into the meat of the run:
The video by and large does NOT meet current proof standards. Observe:
(https://i.imgur.com/RdXCXBg.png)
Now read these quick:
https://rankings.the-elite.net/proof#Proof_Quality_Standards (https://rankings.the-elite.net/proof#Proof_Quality_Standards)
https://rankings.the-elite.net/proof-examples#ghosting (https://rankings.the-elite.net/proof-examples#ghosting)
In the recent past (mostly in the past year or so), I've been noticing a lot of submitted proofcalled runs that include this ghosting error. It's ugly, it causes runs to look wishy-washy (technical term), and it goes against the policy we've updated in (I believe,) August 2018. Here are some examples of times runners were backrolled because of it:
(https://i.imgur.com/rNROzd1.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/K1gYJo1.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Pof8V6Y.jpg)
I can confidently say I haven't changed my process in how I view runs and I try to be as meticulous as possible over time. However, it turns out I'm human, too, and Eric has seemed to fall through the cracks, here. When he began playing and posting times, his quality was top notch. It is my fault that I didn't catch when his quality dramatically dropped due to ghosting. This happened between two runs, it seems. He posted Facility Agent 0:47 in exceptional quality on September 26th, 2018. However, on October 22nd, 2018, he posted a Facility Agent 0:46. His quality changed and it seems that from THAT run forward, he's had major ghosting issues in all of his videos. I never noticed these and I take full responsibility. I own my mistakes and certainly try my best to correct them in the future, since that's all we can change.
EDIT (2020/02/20 @ 19:44): Huge respect for Eric for accepting he made ghosting errors and takes it on the chin. I hope he progresses his quality in future runs.
Here are some examples:
The recent Runway Agent 0:21:
(https://i.imgur.com/RdXCXBg.png)
Runway Secret Agent 0:22:
(https://i.imgur.com/2GKg896.png)
Control Agent 4:00:
(https://i.imgur.com/bzgGuHF.png)
Surface 2 Secret Agent 0:56:
(https://i.imgur.com/wPcdatw.png)
I apologise, folks.
I do prefer to give breaks: Irie's original Bunker 2 Secret Agent 0:47, Randy Chapman's Surface 1 Agent 1:02, to name a couple popular ones.
I don't let the privilege of being the proof mod go to my head (as many may believe :kappa:).
I try to be as fair as possible, not be pedantic, while still respecting the proof policy.
Here's what I propose:
1. The run stays on the rankings and the ghosted runs become "grandfathered" as you may.
2. No more ghosting from Eric, or anyone else, or runs 100% get backrolled with no warnings.
3. I can make a sticky thread where people can post example/test videos and I can respond with a yay or nay. (I've also been actively responding to direct forum and discord messages for a WHILE):
(https://i.imgur.com/Igylh9f.png)
4. Members of the community have been excellent in backing me up in this position by catching times over the years that I've missed in calls by posting them in the call thread or messaging me about them. It's been such a great support and makes the quality of the calls and our rankings better. It's unfortunate that none of this happened for Eric's timespage. I don't place blame on anyone but myself for this error, but ghosting also has not been a focal point of quality in our community and I feel like this topic/untied record are a spark for more....*inspiration* to locate such runs in the future so we can combine our forces as we always have since I was placed here in February 2015.
5. If Eric ever feels up to it, he may wish to dupe the 0:21 in non-ghosted format, as this run is going to be a huge point of study for runners in the future.
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TL;DR:
Formal apology. Run stays up. Big big warning. No more ghosting anymore from anyone or you get your PP slapped. Most people are a great support. Keep up the good fight for quality.
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I agree on all points. While I feel 'excessive frame blending or ghosting' is still up to interpretation, ghosting is present and the case can be made in either direction. With the special circumstance of berg never being dinged for his quality in the past, I think the STERN warning but no backroll is the correct response.
I LOVE the idea of a "proof quality check" thread, where proof mods can greenlight quality and everyone can point out potential problems and how to solve them.
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I LOVE the idea of a "proof quality check" thread, where proof mods can greenlight quality and everyone can point out potential problems and how to solve them.
This idea is great; while I'm not sure I'd ever want to take on proof mod responsibility I definitely am up for helping everyone have high quality recordings (even if purely from a selfish perspective because I like good video myself); it's kind of my thing.
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I actually didn't notice it at first until it was pointed out, and I'm someone who often nags people in streams to turn on the damn deinterlace filter.
I've always thought anything could be deinterlaced?
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Run stays up.
hooray!
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Eyy :grinning:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think being a proof mod is positively saintly, and is relatively thankless (compared to the work put in). But I won't pretend that I wasn't prepping to kick off if Berg was slapped down without any warning on his previous runs. Obviously this has been addressed :)
5. If Eric ever feels up to it, he may wish to dupe the 0:21 in non-ghosted format, as this run is going to be a huge point of study for runners in the future.
The run is very important but for anyone looking to dupe 21 I think they find our final research tool, the splits rom, more useful. Once I finish the NTSC-J rom I'll make some initial splits for a few levels then release them (maybe this weekend else next)
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Think that the right decision was made here. Glad 21 stands.
Perhaps the proof policy examples should be updated to a less extreme example.
(https://i.imgur.com/RdXCXBg.png) =/= (https://rankings.the-elite.net/images/proof-examples/ghosting.png)
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Just in topic to Runway 21, I want to ask is there any way 4+Runway SA 22 is possible. Thinking through it, getting 7 nades, one will have to be used to kill the hut guards and another to destroy the battery so that leaves 5 nade Boosts. So thus 3 guard Boosts I would guess would be needed which I don't know is possible or not. I also know of the health aspect but I believe the less damage you take for a nade boost the better the boost is.
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Just in topic to Runway 21, I want to ask is there any way 4+Runway SA 22 is possible. Thinking through it, getting 7 nades, one will have to be used to kill the hut guards and another to destroy the battery so that leaves 5 nade Boosts. So thus 3 guard Boosts I would guess would be needed which I don't know is possible or not. I also know of the health aspect but I believe the less damage you take for a nade boost the better the boost is.
Definitely possible, but the time is even tighter than agent because of the throw, and the grind would be tremendous. I did a quick calculation and got something around 5,000 hours (getting a 2 guard boost ending is very very rare, surviving 4 juggles with high enough health also is very rare and not within your control)
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Amazing record - hope Karl or Goose makes a video for this record.
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Just in topic to Runway 21, I want to ask is there any way 4+Runway SA 22 is possible. Thinking through it, getting 7 nades, one will have to be used to kill the hut guards and another to destroy the battery so that leaves 5 nade Boosts. So thus 3 guard Boosts I would guess would be needed which I don't know is possible or not. I also know of the health aspect but I believe the less damage you take for a nade boost the better the boost is.
With 2.x I believe to acquire a boost in the beginning theres a possibility by the cut scene guard that you shoot infront of the hangars - By shooting the cut scene guard the latest as possible to ALERT him (gets him moving toward bond quicker which in general just aware of bond) - Then its timing when to actually start the level which I think you want this guard to see you come out of the vents and NOT allow him to roll the hanger door all the way up - You want him to see you coming out of the vents and its a timing thing from when you alert him to starting each cut scene thereafter to starting the actual run
This is a valid idea as the beginning of the run doesn't deal with any grenades right away per say and also allows this guard to boost you at least once - Possibly more with the right walking animation and firing as you're coming out of the hut and down the runway
Berg confirmed this was viable and I do believe for :21 to even have a remote chance on SA you will more or less require this boost (possibly more boosts if its a GOD like animation and remember on SA opposed to A you're more likely to get a boost) from this cut scene guard as the rest of the level seems to be relatively preoccupied by adding boosts when you're grenade chaining / priming for grenade throw
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I was never able to get boosted by a guard by luring one in the cutscene with 2.4. You can lure them over, but catching a boost is another matter.
The SA 21 strat as I see it - traditional hut boost, 4 juggles, drone boost for the battery throw, then 2 guard boosts at the end. Again, this would be a beyond normal grind and could be next to functionally impossible because of the health.
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22 SA has never even been TASed AFAIK, I think before a human even considers this we'd need to at least see what the TAS looks like to establish any sort of viability. Sterling, we have experimented with the guard boost, the best result I know of is that you can get a boost with pinball settings, and possibly 00, but for SA and Agent it doesn't seem viable.
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We already know what the SA TAS looks like, it's basically the same as the agent one (especially pre-juggle) but without any boosts which will kill you (i.e. the hut double in my 7:0 21 TAS). The TAS will be careful to lose minimal health from the boosts which is no harder in TAS but even more impossible on console. You could probably get 20 SA TAS with Berg's juggle but it doesn't mean anything.
Also Sterling these strat ideas are well known and can be described more succiently! That said it's worth reconsidering for SA.
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In Goose's recent video, he said that you save 0.15 seconds by killing the 2 guards behind the table with a grenade. I don't think that this is the case.
He might be partly right, but I think it's because you kill the two guards and blow up the table AND blow up the cabinets as well. The cabinets most importantly. As you can kill both guards and blow up the table with a grenade from outside the hut quite easily.
I could be wrong though. I'm just saying.
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Mate he got this info from the mate who got 0:21.
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In Goose's recent video, he said that you save 0.15 seconds by killing the 2 guards behind the table with a grenade. I don't think that this is the case.
Killing the 2 guards was literally the timesave found to make a 8 boost 21 possible. Once you left the hut, the table and the cabinets are unloaded so they are irrelevant to lag. The guards chase after you though.
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In Goose's recent video, he said that you save 0.15 seconds by killing the 2 guards behind the table with a grenade. I don't think that this is the case.
Killing the 2 guards was literally the timesave found to make a 8 boost 21 possible. Once you left the hut, the table and the cabinets are unloaded so they are irrelevant to lag. The guards chase after you though.
If that's the case then why shoot out the screen on Control to reduce lag?
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Because it's loaded the whole time you're in that big room for the protect sequence
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In Goose's recent video, he said that you save 0.15 seconds by killing the 2 guards behind the table with a grenade. I don't think that this is the case.
Killing the 2 guards was literally the timesave found to make a 8 boost 21 possible. Once you left the hut, the table and the cabinets are unloaded so they are irrelevant to lag. The guards chase after you though.
Watch your mouth, Goose said "passing away," not "killed." Monsters...
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I don't believe shooting out the screen on control was ever proven to help with lag. Regardless it doesn't save time since Natalia's hacking can't be sped up. It just also can't lose time and there's really no reason not to do it either. So out of an abundance of caution, and ritual, we "pass away" the screen in case it does help lower lag during the protect for shooting guards :pimp: destroying the cabinet/table on runway actually loses time due to the lag created, but killing the guards makes up more time than lost from shit exploding. As JD said you deload the hut when you strafe away from it but the guards would still be shooting at you and running scripts that would lag the game.
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I guess I stand corrected. Good to know. Thanks guys.