The Elite Forum

The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: Joris on March 05, 2020, 05:08:17 pm

Title: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Joris on March 05, 2020, 05:08:17 pm
On March 26th 2018, Sam "Ash" Rodrigues achieved Surface 2 SA 0:47 he was the 3rd person to achieve this time


PBRGSR
when set

The run was streamed but not locally recorded and the audio of the run was not audible, and according to the Proof Quality standards : "In-game sound effects are audible on the video and are not significantly delayed".

(https://i.imgur.com/ZK1Hsmd.png)

Link to the Proof Policy : https://rankings.the-elite.net/proof

So far nothing wrong, the run didn't meet the proof standards, so it was backrolled. The thing is, if we could hear the slightest noise from the game in this video (for example the "beep beep" mine noise) the audio would have been good enough to pass the proof standards (probably would have passed proof with a warning about the audio).
But today, rewatching the run again, i found out that you can actually hear the music of the endscreen (at ~1:50 in the video), which means the audio is audible at some point, so i told it so Sammy and he went to check the video and he found out that you can actually hear the sound of the door opening at the end of the level !
So this run does meet the proof standards for audio, so should this be put back on the rankings ?

What do you think ?
Title: Re: Should this run be putted back on the rankings ?
Post by: Joris on March 05, 2020, 05:12:21 pm
edit, you can actually hear the mine throw at the end lol
Title: Re: Should this run be putted back on the rankings ?
Post by: flicker on March 05, 2020, 05:18:43 pm
Backing the original decision
Title: Re: Should this run be putted back on the rankings ?
Post by: deletedprofile.u on March 05, 2020, 05:27:52 pm
Negative. The decision was made already. Other sound within the posted video mask in-game audio.

Standing by this decision.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Joris on March 05, 2020, 05:57:57 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/FOHYGns.jpg)
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Joris on March 05, 2020, 06:02:40 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/jPKwvbc.jpg)
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: mw on March 05, 2020, 06:09:30 pm
I can hear more than a couple sound effects: the guard on both runs dying, the mine throw, the door opening, and tons of the endscreen music. I'm inclined to say that, especially if most people in the community want it to be, the run should be accepted. For the future, the policy should be amended so situations like this don't occur.

I would never suggest that a previously accepted run be removed from the rankings unless it were proven fake - that would be wholly unfair to the runner. But I see no problem accepting a run that was rejected before if a good enough argument is presented regarding the proof policy. This run, despite its flaws toward the spirit of the policy, follows the letter of the law in a somewhat acceptable fashion.

I believe that the proof policy is a tool to serve the proof moderators, who in turn are tools to serve the community. Sometimes we might mistake this relationship a bit.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: flukey lukey on March 05, 2020, 06:19:48 pm
The run should 100% be on the rankings. This is a situation where the proof moderator should take responsibility and own up to their prior mistake, apologize to the runner and accept that the run meets standards.

Good investigating work Joris.

Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: deletedprofile.u on March 05, 2020, 06:21:45 pm
Refer to #policy on Elite discord. I participated in good discussion there.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Happens on March 05, 2020, 06:50:00 pm
I think it's quite funny that Alec can't help but make decisions that are widely panned by the community
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Whiteted on March 05, 2020, 06:57:33 pm
I swear my brain is just inserting the mine throw noise, if I close my eyes and start from a random point I can't even hear it.
Surely for runs that are vaguely borderline it's just up to the proof mod. Clearly Alec's given it consideration, so put up with it.

https://youtu.be/WJVBvvS57j0?t=14 (https://youtu.be/WJVBvvS57j0?t=14)
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Shadow on March 05, 2020, 07:18:31 pm
Quote from: Whiteted on March 05, 2020, 06:57:33 pm
I swear my brain is just inserting the mine throw noise, if I close my eyes and start from a random point I can't even hear it.

Heh, I had the same experience. Cranked the volume on my headphones all the way up, closed my eyes through the whole video, and I couldn't recognize a thing from the game. I think I hear a mine throw with my eyes open but can't at all with them closed.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Irie on March 05, 2020, 07:55:16 pm
Another vague rule that needs to be clear. "Audible" is very arguable and not very quantifiable. Regardless of the Sammy decision, this rule must be amended. I don't know what word is better to replace audible but one thing I would add is "ALL in-game sound effects are audible"
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Joris on March 05, 2020, 07:55:33 pm
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/136678387065290752/685253148675276962/throw.mp3
sound of the mine throw
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Lark on March 05, 2020, 07:58:18 pm
lol... How could anyone approve that run? You can't hear any in-game audio. It's a complete joke that people wanna support it. Nothing against Sammy. If a new person ever submitted a video like this it would be unanimously rejected. Don't play favoritism or else we shouldn't bother having standards.

If you need a supplementary program to hear an in-game sound you know there's a problem.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: flukey lukey on March 05, 2020, 10:55:12 pm
Quote from: Lark on March 05, 2020, 07:58:18 pm
You can't hear any in-game audio.

The whole point of this thread and the only reason this run was brought back into question was that, as it has been shown above, you CAN hear in-game audio.

This has nothing to do with favoritism, it is to do with finding and respecting what is true.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: JDBlack21 on March 06, 2020, 01:07:40 am
I will say this: we are really reaching on trying to hear the littlest amount of sound possible. It's so dim it basically passes off as white noise.
However, since the proof policy regarding sound is so lenient, and with Alec saying that he would accept it with ANY sound, this is another situation where we should grandfather this one run in, but then reconsider the rules for sound proof. To me, this is an easier decision than runway 21
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Alka Maass on March 06, 2020, 03:00:28 am
This is clearly not audible for everyone, so I think this should not be in.

I think the policy should be reworded regarding audio, SFX should be clearly audible throughout the whole run should be the wording.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Wxelever on March 06, 2020, 03:04:37 am
you're right why didnt he just think about duping it? silly sammy
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Aztec Exemplar on March 06, 2020, 04:26:46 am
Amarec watermark untaped run extraordinaire dropping his 2 cents.  :nesquik:

It is a profound disappointment to hear Alec being maligned once again. Did we not learn from the Runway 21 discourse? I remember arguments from the Runway 21 discussions saying that decisions that Alec was initially making were making our community “look bad”. To each their own but I would be more embarrassed of unnecessary vitriol.

Regarding the decision at hand, I wouldn’t pass the run. Arguing over semantics and technicalities just results in you losing the essence of the proof policy. Every point in the policy was written for a reason. The audio rule was not implemented so we could barely hear 2-3 sound effects in a minute long video.

I think one idea that we can all agree on is a revision of the proof policy. However, with the mindset that many seem to have, even a revision may be futile. A step in the right direction nonetheless.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: EliminatorJr on March 06, 2020, 04:30:33 am
Why are all my posts being deleted?
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: deletedprofile.u on March 06, 2020, 05:12:44 am
Quote from: EliminatorJr on March 06, 2020, 04:30:33 am
Why are all my posts being deleted?

A single post of yours and a single post of Alka's were deleted because of personal attacks. The thread has been updated to take these out.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: SammoSammy on March 06, 2020, 11:44:10 am
Bro I can't hear a fucking thing

If it weren't for the dozens of discord messages genuinely and honestly debating this I would have thought this was a joke thread
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: deletedprofile.u on March 06, 2020, 11:44:18 am
Quote from: Aztec Exemplar on March 06, 2020, 04:26:46 am
Amarec watermark untaped run extraordinaire dropping his 2 cents.  :nesquik:

It is a profound disappointment to hear Alec being maligned once again. Did we not learn from the Runway 21 discourse? I remember arguments from the Runway 21 discussions saying that decisions that Alec was initially making were making our community “look bad”. To each their own but I would be more embarrassed of unnecessary vitriol.

Regarding the decision at hand, I wouldn’t pass the run. Arguing over semantics and technicalities just results in you losing the essence of the proof policy. Every point in the policy was written for a reason. The audio rule was not implemented so we could barely hear 2-3 sound effects in a minute long video.

I think one idea that we can all agree on is a revision of the proof policy. However, with the mindset that many seem to have, even a revision may be futile. A step in the right direction nonetheless.

I appreciate this post because of the essence instilled that a REASONABLE person can read the proof policy and extrapolate information from runs, and make a solid decision.

I also wholly agree with this post. We can revise the proof policy again and again but there will ALWAYS be people who don't read it reasonably. Even the LAW in the world's leading countries is up for interpretation by reasonable people. Not everything is black and white.

I make all my decisions as fairly and reasonably as possible. There is a proof mod for a reason. The council isn't meant to eventually take every single decision the proof mod makes and vote on it because the loud minority of the community isn't happy with it.

I made more detailed comments in the elite discord's #policy channel yesterday. Please take time to read that.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Joris on March 06, 2020, 01:29:27 pm
I think it's ok to argue about if the run should be put back on the rankings or not, i think that not agreeing with this decision is understandable, but saying that you can't actually hear anything from the run and denying the fact that there actually is some audio coming out of this run is just not true, the existence of audio on this run shouldn't be a debate, unclog your ears guys.
I think it's more about the legitimacy and proof quality of the audio instead of questionning that if it's really there or not.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Irie on March 06, 2020, 01:49:42 pm
I see no harm in striving to make the proof policy fool-proof, and covering your ass as much as you can. Unlike the many laws of countries, there's only a few rules regarding proof, just requiring a bit extra and specific wording to cover as many bases as possible. Make it so that even an unreasonable person still can't make an argument of their interpretation that holds any weight.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: deletedprofile.u on March 06, 2020, 02:09:33 pm
Quote from: Alephℵ0L on March 06, 2020, 01:29:27 pm
I think it's ok to argue about if the run should be put back on the rankings or not, i think that not agreeing with this decision is understandable, but saying that you can't actually hear anything from the run and denying the fact that there actually is some audio coming out of this run is just not true, the existence of audio on this run shouldn't be a debate, unclog your ears guys.
I think it's more about the legitimacy and proof quality of the audio instead of questionning that if it's really there or not.

Quote from: Aztec Exemplar on March 06, 2020, 04:26:46 am
Every point in the policy was written for a reason. The audio rule was not implemented so we could barely hear 2-3 sound effects in a minute long video.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: flukey lukey on March 06, 2020, 02:28:58 pm
Quote from: Aztec Exemplar on March 06, 2020, 04:26:46 am
Every point in the policy was written for a reason. The audio rule was not implemented so we could barely hear 2-3 sound effects in a minute long video.

I don't see what is so convincing about this quote. Surface 2 by nature only contains 2-3 sound effects, all of which Can be heard in the video. It's a good thing that the proof policy was written for a reason, but that doesn't inherently make it water-tight. As situations evolve, and as speed running and the-elite continues to evolve we should be vigilant.

Joris sums up my thoughts:

Quote from: Alephℵ0L on March 06, 2020, 01:29:27 pm
I think it's ok to argue about if the run should be put back on the rankings or not, i think that not agreeing with this decision is understandable, but saying that you can't actually hear anything from the run and denying the fact that there actually is some audio coming out of this run is just not true, the existence of audio on this run shouldn't be a debate, unclog your ears guys.
I think it's more about the legitimacy and proof quality of the audio instead of questionning that if it's really there or not.


Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: deletedprofile.u on March 06, 2020, 02:38:55 pm
Quote from: Alephℵ0L on March 06, 2020, 01:29:27 pm
I think it's more about the legitimacy and proof quality of the audio instead of questionning that if it's really there or not.

Proof quality of the audio in this case has nothing to do with whether we question it or not. Other audio significantly masks the in-game sound to a point where in order to theoretically hear the in-game audio, you have to blast your ears out with the other audio and listen past it. In what world is this reasonable?

Also, if people read what I said about precedent and about Audacity in the #policy channel on discord (which I've mentioned several times) then I still cannot see how passing this time and allowing it on the rankings is at all good.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Irie on March 06, 2020, 03:33:28 pm
Not everyone is in the elite discord. You can copy and paste your thoughts here so they are more permanent instead of referring to a discord post.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: deletedprofile.u on March 06, 2020, 04:03:45 pm
Quote from: iriebutler on March 06, 2020, 03:33:28 pm
Not everyone is in the elite discord. You can copy and paste your thoughts here so they are more permanent instead of referring to a discord post.

Everyone who is vocally arguing for it to be posted to the ranks are in the discord. There would be a lot of screenshots.

Also side note but lol that if I exclusively use the forums people have said the proof mod should be in discord as well. I do that and now am somehow obligated to copy paste everything to folks. So much better when it was one-or-the-other.  :v
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Yendis on March 06, 2020, 04:18:04 pm
Why is this even an issue that Alec has to be involved in. He made his decision years ago and if it's to be appealed it should be a council matter.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: IIsYnII on March 06, 2020, 04:53:15 pm
Does this mean we have to play with SFX on?
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Yendis on March 06, 2020, 05:20:18 pm
Quote from: Ig on March 06, 2020, 04:53:15 pm
Does this mean we have to play with SFX on?

Yes. This was brought up a while back when Henrik started playing train without SFX to reduce lag. If it does indeed reduces lag it would probably make a large portion of the community play without SFX making the viewing experience significantly worse.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: RWG on March 06, 2020, 05:54:26 pm
In order to CELEBRATE world records captured in high quality video, to EMPATHIZE with the struggles of all speedrunners attempting to capture their speedruns in good quality, to ELEVATE the best quality capture speedruns, to MOTIVATE speedrunners to never take proof issues for granted, and to INSPIRE speedrunners to always pursue capturing their runs in the best quality possible... I do not think this run should pass proof policy and be on the rankings.

I cannot hear any of the three sound effects alleged to be heard in the video.  The alleged frames of audio sound like more bits and pieces of the ambient noise/music/chatter.  You can't just hear air flowing through a room and say "yes, this is definitely the mine throw, lol."

My Surface 1 LTK 1:52 has pretty bad audio.  I was listening to troll YouTube videos on mute while playing, so it only picked up sound via the TV's audio through the mic.  When I got it, I long feared it may not pass proof call.  In fact, I still today don't really think it deserves to pass proof call.  I was being lazy and should have captured it better.  I basically just said "frick it, I'm gonna watch YouTube and ceebs about playing while capturing with better audio."  Yet, the audio on that run is multitudes more audible than the SR S2 SA 47.  Actually, it's infinite/error times more audible, because the SR S2 SA 47 has zero audio, while my S1 LTK 152 does indeed have some.

Please, please, I beg of ye, do not make me make some kind of troll Control 00A run where you can hear audio for 1 second during the protect.  Nor make me create a YouTube video "YOU be the judge: LEGIT OR FAKE?" with red arrows surrounding the big SPLICE audio spectrum at the bottom of the thumbnail.  Please don't make me do this, I am BEGGING you.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: EliminatorJr on March 06, 2020, 07:09:53 pm
Bottom line it's going to be voted on by the council so there is virtually no reason to continue posting opinions in this thread of whether or not you believe that the run should pass or not pass.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: TheFlash on March 06, 2020, 07:57:29 pm
Quote from: EliminatorJr on March 06, 2020, 07:09:53 pm
Bottom line it's going to be voted on by the council so there is virtually no reason to continue posting opinions in this thread of whether or not you believe that the run should pass or not pass.

The vote of the council members should reflect the community's opinion alongside their individual expertise...I'm sure anyone on the council would be reading this thread to see what the community thinks about the situation to help inform their decision making process.

---

No one should care what I think, but I just have to say I'm really quite surprised how many users seem to be acting like this is obviously passable proof. Maybe my ears just don't work or something. I keep thinking this must be some sort of elaborate joke intended to trick us or something. Someone trying to win at that "worst video contest"?

Maybe I am misunderstanding the way the community values the video proof aspect. I thought it was pretty conclusively demonstrated in the previous rounds we did with this that what people really wanted was clear, unassailable video proof for each time on the rankings. It seemed like there was almost no one who was happy to live on the "if we are SURE the time happened, it is okay to rank it" island and everyone was in the "just duplicate it with a proper recording" camp instead.  Yet now it seems like large numbers of us are in the first camp suddenly.  There was a rule about audio being required with the video to help reduce the chances of a spliced or otherwise modified run being accepted, but it's also okay to just not have audio? I assumed everyone had to submit a copy of their proof with no extra audio layered on top. I guess that never made it into the rules.

---

Maybe someone could make it into obviously passable proof by removing some of the background noise to make the in game sound effects more audible? Could you find a recording of the song from the background and subtract that out, and also remove some of the fuzzy/buzzy noises too? Then if there is a clear thread of game audio that we can hear, everyone would be happy?
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Joris on March 06, 2020, 08:08:14 pm
Quote
The vote of the council members should reflect the community's opinion alongside their individual expertise...I'm sure anyone on the council would be reading this thread to see what the community thinks about the situation to help inform their decision making process.

Should i make a poll ?
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Vermin on March 06, 2020, 08:10:18 pm
I don’t think this run should go up
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: TheFlash on March 06, 2020, 08:21:02 pm
Quote from: Alephℵ0L on March 06, 2020, 08:08:14 pm
Quote
The vote of the council members should reflect the community's opinion alongside their individual expertise...I'm sure anyone on the council would be reading this thread to see what the community thinks about the situation to help inform their decision making process.

Should i make a poll ?

Dunno, I'm sure the council members could take it into consideration when they make a decision, so it would probably help them?? But they very well may make a decision opposite to what the poll says if they are confident they know what is best for the community (for example, my vote counts for about 0.01 and someone else's vote might be worth about 10).  So that could leave people even more angry than they would be otherwise.

I think what is most important is that we all have a good amount of trust that whatever the council people decide is going to be a solid, well-informed decision with the best interests of the community in mind.  That's what they're there for! Perfect for situations like this. I'm glad I'm not one of them, though. Tough job.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: RWG on March 06, 2020, 08:24:15 pm
Let's be 100% real for one brief second here.

The only reason people are suggesting this video should be passed is because it's by Sammy Rogers, a likable, affable guy in the community who is the friend of everyone.  If this video was from some complete rando, or a detestable figure in the community, no one would be suggesting it should be ranked.

I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad or wrong thing.  It's a neutral thing.  It's how the world works.  Likable people get more favors to them.  But it's important to understand our own biases when discussing these sorts of things.

The video does not meet any proof standards in our current form; but because we like the guy, we're trying to do him a favor.  That's all this comes down to.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Blue Khakis on March 06, 2020, 08:31:38 pm
Quote from: Alephℵ0L on March 06, 2020, 08:08:14 pm
Quote
The vote of the council members should reflect the community's opinion alongside their individual expertise...I'm sure anyone on the council would be reading this thread to see what the community thinks about the situation to help inform their decision making process.

Should i make a poll ?
Yes. I totally don't think the run should be reinstated, but if a majority of the community disagree I would rather know about it now and air things out over a relatively minor world record than wait for someone to get an untied with similar audio and risk a firestorm.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: HarryCoupe on March 06, 2020, 09:03:01 pm
Quote from: Aztec Exemplar on March 06, 2020, 04:26:46 am
Amarec watermark untaped run extraordinaire dropping his 2 cents.  :nesquik:

It is a profound disappointment to hear Alec being maligned once again. Did we not learn from the Runway 21 discourse? I remember arguments from the Runway 21 discussions saying that decisions that Alec was initially making were making our community “look bad”. To each their own but I would be more embarrassed of unnecessary vitriol.

Regarding the decision at hand, I wouldn’t pass the run. Arguing over semantics and technicalities just results in you losing the essence of the proof policy. Every point in the policy was written for a reason. The audio rule was not implemented so we could barely hear 2-3 sound effects in a minute long video.

I think one idea that we can all agree on is a revision of the proof policy. However, with the mindset that many seem to have, even a revision may be futile. A step in the right direction nonetheless.

Entirely agree here
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Huzi on March 06, 2020, 10:01:30 pm
Quote from: RWG on March 06, 2020, 08:24:15 pm
Let's be 100% real for one brief second here.

The only reason people are suggesting this video should be passed is because it's by Sammy Rogers, a likable, affable guy in the community who is the friend of everyone.  If this video was from some complete rando, or a detestable figure in the community, no one would be suggesting it should be ranked.

I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad or wrong thing.  It's a neutral thing.  It's how the world works.  Likable people get more favors to them.  But it's important to understand our own biases when discussing these sorts of things.

The video does not meet any proof standards in our current form; but because we like the guy, we're trying to do him a favor.  That's all this comes down to.

Quote
Should this run be put back on the rankings?

No
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: flukey lukey on March 06, 2020, 11:06:42 pm
Quote from: RWG on March 06, 2020, 08:24:15 pm
Let's be 100% real for one brief second here.

The only reason people are suggesting this video should be passed is because it's by Sammy Rogers, a likable, affable guy in the community who is the friend of everyone.  If this video was from some complete rando, or a detestable figure in the community, no one would be suggesting it should be ranked.

Wrong. If i turn the volume up i can hear the sounds in the mix.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: RWG on March 07, 2020, 01:29:14 am
A team of experts have been hard at work and were able to restore the audio as best as they could.  In order to celebrate this remarkable world record time by Sammy, to empathize with the challenges we all face in capturing quality video & audio speedruns, elevate the records of the deserving, motivate others to speedrun regardless of ability to capture video & audio, and to inspire all that we can indeed restore video & audio when needed, I present to thee:


I'm sure someone could do an even better job if they were so inclined, but tbh this is pretty much indistinguishable from other runs which would pass proof call.  So I think we can safely shut the door on this chapter, and go back to being a united and positive community.

Spoiler
The first restoration attempt didn't go quite as well:

Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: RWG on March 07, 2020, 01:48:01 am
Like honestly, in these sorts of situations, we should work together as a community to find a better way forward.  A solution we can all agree upon.  I don't like this "ganging up" on Troubleclef lately, who has been the best proof moderator we've ever had.

You can't do this on most levels, but on Surface 2 it's incredibly trivial to just add in the bits of audio that were missing, to make a passable version of the record.  It's the simplest and most positive solution.  But instead of doing something that takes less than 20 minutes of work to solve a problem, everyone in the community just decided to gang up on Troubleclef instead, in an attempt to remove him from his position as proof moderator.  And that makes me really sad.

Yes, I posted the Caverns 00A 1:32 with 1 second of audio to prove a point... the point being that runs with 1 second of audio absolutely do not meet the proof standards we have in this community.  It is absolutely illogical to allow Sammy's S2 SA 47 with *maybe* a frame or two of audio (it seems like 50% of people can't hear it), but disallow my Caverns 00A 1:32 with a full second of clean audio.  You guys know this, I know this, everyone knows this.  But this was never about logic.  It was about bullying Troubleclef because he's not on the "ins" with the cliques that still apparently run rampant in this community.

Here's what I recommend as a way to close this chapter in elite history and move on in a positive & CEEMI way:

• Sammy's run that a team of experts restored in about 20 minutes goes up on the rankings, as it now meets acceptable proof standards
• I will post an un-trolled version of my Caverns 00A 1:32 on the rankings tomorrow
• We will understand that all future videos should absolutely have audible audio at all points, and not reach for straws like "omg maybe you can kinda barely hear audio in this 1 frame??"
• In the future, we will work together to find amicable solutions, such as restoring videos, to avoid these sorts of situations (I attempted this for Berg's Runway 21 as well).

and most importantly

• the community should apologize to Troubleclef for repeated bullying and borderline harassment that has been going on, in an attempt to remove him from his position as proof moderator.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: RWG on March 07, 2020, 01:50:02 am
I have just been alerted that an even BETTER audio restoration of Sammy's S2 SA 47 exists, and has existed since June 2019.


Problem solved, situation over.  Now put the run on the rankings and stop finding excuses to bully Troubleclef.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Irie on March 07, 2020, 02:13:08 am
But that was rejected when made was it not?
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Happens on March 07, 2020, 02:24:09 am
Quote from: RWG on March 07, 2020, 01:50:02 am
I have just been alerted that an even BETTER audio restoration of Sammy's S2 SA 47 exists, and has existed since June 2019.


Problem solved, situation over.  Now put the run on the rankings and stop finding excuses to bully Troubleclef.  Thanks.

This is well known to have existed, however given Luge’s S2 Agent 46 being rejected for doctoring the video, obviously this won’t fly.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: RWG on March 07, 2020, 06:30:28 am
I spoke with Dusky about this for nearly an hour tonight.  I came to understand that this was never actually about accepting a video with 1 possibly audible frame in it.  The whole thing is actually about perceived inconsistencies in proof moderation.  People aren't mad that Sammy's run with 1 possibly audible frame isn't accepted; they're mad because of a perception that Sammy has been treated unfairly, or not given a second chance/warning, where others have in the past.

I've replaced my Caverns 00A 1:32 video with a proper, proof-passing link.  I hope this drove home the point that we cannot accept videos that have audio for only one second.  But again, that's not what this whole Sammy S2 SA 47 situation was ever about.  So I'm glad that much has all been resolved.

A good question that has arisen, in speaking with Dusky, is; what do we do when the community has lost its appetite for a current proof moderator?  I'm not necessarily saying this is or isn't the case now.  But it's a good question.  In the past, proof moderators would only resign or be replaced in basically a coup d'etat.  The community would get really mad about something, cause immense controversy, fake some runs, otherwise undermine or bully the proof moderator, and eventually the pressure would mount to the point they resign or are overthrown.  Obviously, this is incredibly unhealthy, toxic, non-CEEMI, etc, and not the way we should be doing things in 2020.  Troubleclef is a good guy, and I don't want to see this happen to him.

Is there some other way we could manage the terms of proof moderators?  Democratically elected to 2 year terms?  Some sort of community ability to recall or impeach?  A council of Cardinals spending days voting on the proof moderator and then signalling a decision by igniting a chimney with white smoke?  While our proof policy is pretty solid, we left out one major thing; how do we decide when it's time for a new proof moderator, in a fair and healthy manner?

This is the kind of thing we should sort out when the community is happy and healthy, rather than wait for another time when things descend into chaos, anarchy and upheaval.

Stay tuned, there may be more on this matter coming in due time.
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: DYM on March 07, 2020, 07:21:24 am
https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=21837.0
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Sammy Rodgers on March 09, 2020, 08:06:02 pm
sorry
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Happens on March 09, 2020, 08:06:23 pm
Quote from: Sammy Rodgers on March 09, 2020, 08:06:02 pm
sorry

Welp
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Yendis on March 09, 2020, 08:07:12 pm
Quote from: Sammy Rodgers on March 09, 2020, 08:06:02 pm
sorry

gg no re
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Pauliwood on March 09, 2020, 08:12:40 pm
Should this player be BANNED for this insane extended troll
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: Joris on March 09, 2020, 08:35:15 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/bWE2x2Y.png)
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: deletedprofile.u on March 09, 2020, 08:49:57 pm
Duped! The madlad did it :pimp:
Title: Re: Should this run be put back on the rankings ?
Post by: flicker on March 09, 2020, 11:43:51 pm
I appreciate this conclusion a lot.