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The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: Imperfect Clark on April 25, 2020, 01:35:36 am

Title: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Imperfect Clark on April 25, 2020, 01:35:36 am
Is there a reliable account of the best known 1.1 times?

Possibly related -- is there (or can there be) a chart(s) filtering records based off players' declared "Preferred Control Style" (optional field on profiles)
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: deletedprofile.u on April 25, 2020, 05:21:21 am

This is one that comes to mind
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Illu on April 25, 2020, 06:17:58 am
Would be good to know also which ones were with no CC in that case, probably mostly old Wouter times.

There's some 1.3 1.4 and 2.3 also being used rarely.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Infected Mind on April 26, 2020, 05:32:36 pm
my notable 1.1 times were

b1 sa 23 nocc
b2 sa 49 nocc
frig 00 111 nocc
egypt a 46 cc
arch 16/55/55 cc

could compile a full list later if needed
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Imperfect Clark on May 13, 2020, 12:23:32 am
Wow, Egypt 46... I quietly hoped my 47 might be a 1.1 record. No cc, though.

Perhaps a better question is who are the top 1.1 players and how many of their times are 1.1
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: ExpertGamer on May 16, 2020, 01:15:04 pm
All of my times for PD and GE were achieved using 1.1 with the exception of my Streets A/SA/00A times.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Joris on May 16, 2020, 02:38:59 pm
These are all the best times i achieved when i was new, playing on 1.1 no cc
Dam - 0:53 / 1:22 / 2:05
Facility - 0:45 / 0:56 / 0:56
Runway - 0:23 / 0:23 / 0:40
Surface 1 - 1:06 / 1:53 / 1:57
Bunker 1 - 0:17 / 0:27 / 1:06
Silo - 1:05 / 1:19 / 1:28
Frigate - 0:28 / 1:15 / 1:22
Surface 2 - 0:55 / 0:56 / 1:51 (no grenade on 00A)
Bunker 2 - 0:24 / 1:03 / 1:10
Statue - 2:29 / 2:29 / 2:23 (no Trev shot on A/SA)
Archives - 0:16 / 0:56 / 0:56
Streets - 1:16 / 1:59 / 2:00
Depot - 0:26 / 0:50 / 1:04
Train - 1:14 / 1:40 / 2:09
Jungle - 0:53 / 0:58 / 1:28
Control - 3:59 / 4:25 / 4:23
Cradle - 0:34 / 0:35 / 0:35
Aztec - 1:30 / 1:43 / 1:48
Egypt - 0:50 / 0:57 / 0:59

Times in orange are the ones that i'm not sure if i got them on 1.1 or 2.4
I think my best 1.1 times are :
Archives Agent 0:16 - 1.1 no cc PAL, took me forever to get, and i was brand new to the game
Bunker 1 Agent 0:17 - 1.1 no cc and no quick pauses, got it on a very lucky run early in my grind
Facility Agent 0:45 - Console blew up on that run lol
Bunker 1 Agent 1:06 - One of the last times i achieved using 1.1, pretty good time
Cradle Agent 0:34 - 1.1 no cc, it was insanely hard to get
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Quirky on May 17, 2020, 01:46:36 am
The madman Joris.

One that comes to mind is Facility Agent 0:44 by Goose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUaarmW7OYE&feature=emb_title
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: RWG on May 17, 2020, 09:34:52 am
I've been meaning to post a list of my 1.1 times in this thread for weeks, but just can't get arsed to do it quite yet.  Give me another few weeks and I might come up with the list.  Probably about half of my PBs are actually 1.2 or 2.x at this point though, surprisingly.

Facility Agent 0:44, Silo 1:01/1:08/1:21 and Bunker 1 00A 1:02 are 1.1 times which stick out immediately though.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Alka Maass on May 17, 2020, 02:10:32 pm
I feel like you can often tell what's 1.1 from a video (eg very slight forward movement instead of staying still)
not sure if there is any other giveaways (maybe the speed to lookup/lookdown being slower?)
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Joris on May 21, 2020, 09:14:52 pm
Also forgot about Chicago 0:15 / 0:26 / 0:27 on 1.1 no cc lol
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Cal on May 22, 2020, 02:13:10 am
Also forgot about Chicago 0:15 / 0:26 / 0:27 on 1.1 no cc lol

1.1 no cc on PD, is that even humanly possible.  :v
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Worlds-One on August 08, 2020, 04:56:23 am
Why there was never a 1.1 rankings is truly beyond my comprehension - Somewhat comical and one of the top 3 reasons I stopped speed running - Also never given a valid reason why it was so difficult to have secondary or third fourth rankings for different control styles - It really can't be that difficult to separate one from another which if you wanted to "sneak" a CC WR time into 1.1 no one would really give s sh*t due to the fact you have 2.x times - Actually whole heartily believe this would also bring more people into the game over the countless years missed already however thats just my honest opinion - Who the f*** wants to learn 2.x right out of the gate first time playing the game? - Thats just me though and my thoughts for over 20 years now
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Spurdo____ on August 08, 2020, 05:16:52 am
2.x is actually not that difficult if you've never held an N64 controller before. Imho it's no less intuitive than 1.2 or 1.1.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Worlds-One on August 08, 2020, 06:03:06 am
2.x is actually not that difficult if you've never held an N64 controller before. Imho it's no less intuitive than 1.2 or 1.1.

im glad you had no problem adjusting to WR way of playing the game and going for WR's with the 2.x control style - More power to you as thats what you'll require to compete with the best here

Now in 1997 when one is already accustomed to 1.1/cruise more or less for 2/3 years spending hundreds of hours like players do today on specific levels and you find out others are utilizing a different method of control style its a small burden as for me personally as world champion was already accustomed to the 1.1 / cruise style for every level and hours upon hours end - Re learning it all didn't bod well and want to register with me to want to relearn it all tbh - Maybe it was over excessive having to relearn it all again I don't know

Call it hard headed not to want to change to 2.x which I'm not even sure was used till like 2003 or something - Back in our days people were using rubber bands and allowed to play this way.....my suggestion was separate rankings for the different control styles (mostly because of "rubber bands" which I personally thought took away from speed running the game - Also felt this ruined the integrity of going for WR at that time pre 2000) which if separate rankings were implemented 20 years ago there may be a wider community enjoying their perspective control styles - If they wanted to really enhance and go for WR's they have the option to learn the different control styles and play for the 2.x rankings or the control rankings of their liking - Im truly happy thats its not difficult and no less intuitive for you - Enjoy your speed running here in the community thanks for joining the elite
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: EliminatorJr on August 08, 2020, 08:22:46 am
Why there was never a 1.1 rankings is truly beyond my comprehension

Because separating the ranks based on control style is extremely absurd.

Also never given a valid reason why it was so difficult to have secondary or third fourth rankings for different control styles

Because separating the ranks based on control style is extremely absurd.

Who the f*** wants to learn 2.x right out of the gate first time playing the game?

People who are competitive and don't feel limited by having to learn something that doesn't feel immediately natural.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Irie on August 08, 2020, 12:15:04 pm
Lmao 2.x was not discovered in 2003 unless you are claiming you were the one that discovered it so early
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Vermin on August 08, 2020, 08:16:24 pm
Keen for the 2.1 rankings so I can get some sick records
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Whiteted on August 09, 2020, 05:00:32 am
Time to start setting some 2.3 records tbh
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Wyst3r on August 09, 2020, 10:17:19 am
Quote
Lmao 2.x was not discovered in 2003 unless you are claiming you were the one that discovered it so early

Well, the cinema glitch was known probably since the 90's, so levels like Depot was always known to be faster with 2.x. It just didn't become allowed/accepted until pre-building speed discovery in 2010.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: wishiwasfamous on August 09, 2020, 01:29:46 pm
Using 2.3 in the cinema was noted back in the days of Detstar (early 2000s) as a way to kill the Baron a fourth time. Just echoing what Wyster said.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Irie on August 09, 2020, 01:37:19 pm
Fair enough
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Whiteted on August 09, 2020, 04:50:04 pm
Well, the cinema glitch was known probably since the 90's, so levels like Depot was always known to be faster with 2.x. It just didn't become allowed/accepted until pre-building speed discovery in 2010.

Wow seriously there was a 2-3s? timesave on depot and people were like na this is illegal? Damn that bit of elite history passed me by.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: RWG on August 10, 2020, 12:28:27 am
Well, in 2006 when AAMK "tied" WJ's 43 on Depot SA, it was known that using 2.x would obviously save time.  But it was just deemed (unofficially, in a de facto sense) to be too difficult and too silly to be worth the time or effort.

It was only once the speed-building discovery happened where people went "hmm, maybe this is worth a second look" and stopped thinking about it as some kind of meme novelty.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Infected Mind on August 12, 2020, 02:42:53 pm
Also back in 05/06 I think the mindset was also :

How can you prove 1 person achieved this time and not 2? I believe back then capturing with a webcam and game feed before xsplit and things like that existed was not a thought at all and was deemed illegal due to that

Also no one really tried doing it alone since it was just deemed too hard by default when no one ever actually tried. This is also an era when 2.x cinema speed was unknown and before super pads and such were used. the use of it with 2 regular and probably quite used sticks lost a fair bit of time. So it saves more now then was originally thought since coop runs were only getting 43, though with pretty unoptimal gameplay
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Brose on August 12, 2020, 09:48:10 pm
I’m new here, but I think the Goldeneye speedrunning scene permanently cut itself off from the idea of multiple ranking categories when it began by being focused on individual level records. If the game is about single segment runs, knock yourself out and create as many categories as you want. But when you’re already dealing with ranking 60 different levels, all you have to do is split categories once and you’re already up to 120 different rankings. Knowing the rankings for systems or control styles is fun, but for the main rankings you have to put it all together or it instantly becomes diluted.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: RWG on August 12, 2020, 11:49:37 pm
The problem with creating multiple categories, (I'm imagining in your example, there would be 60 IL categories for 1.1, for 1.2, for 2.x, for NTSC, for PAL, for JP, so in total you'd have something like 600 or 2400 categories) is this:

the more categories, the more you are diluting both the competition, and collaboration from within each category.  Less people care to compete in Silo 00 Agent 1.1 PAL or Control Secret Agent 2.x NTSC-EN, so the competition level goes down.  And alas, with fewer competitors, you have fewer folks collaborating on faster strategies, new techniques, and so on.

Collaboration & competition are the two magic ingredients that make speedrunning work.  The more categories, the more you're diluting these magic ingredients, and basically, the more watered down speedrunning becomes.

I've long thought about doing a video detailing this, maybe someday.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: vitorr on August 13, 2020, 11:02:18 am
Why there was never a 1.1 rankings is truly beyond my comprehension - Somewhat comical and one of the top 3 reasons I stopped speed running - Also never given a valid reason why it was so difficult to have secondary or third fourth rankings for different control styles - It really can't be that difficult to separate one from another which if you wanted to "sneak" a CC WR time into 1.1 no one would really give s sh*t due to the fact you have 2.x times - Actually whole heartily believe this would also bring more people into the game over the countless years missed already however thats just my honest opinion - Who the f*** wants to learn 2.x right out of the gate first time playing the game? - Thats just me though and my thoughts for over 20 years now

my brain just got fucked, specially because of "Why there was never a 1.1 rankings is truly beyond my comprehension". seriously. For 2.x you could even say like you need a second controller and you can't afford that and it's unfair but that is stupid argument anyway as it's easy to find and fairly cheap with internet and etc (also many of us already have a 2nd controller anyway). But for 1.1 versus 1.2 you just can't be serious.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Brose on August 14, 2020, 01:54:57 pm
(I'm imagining in your example, there would be 60 IL categories for 1.1, for 1.2, for 2.x, for NTSC, for PAL, for JP, so in total you'd have something like 600 or 2400 categories)


That could be a video too. A running tally of imagining that every time the “create a new category” controversy emerged, what if a new category was made every time? Control style and system gets you to 1,440 categories (60 x 8 x 3), but I’m sure there are other ways to split it.

I would also kind of like to know what the 2.1 PAL record is for each stage.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Worlds-One on August 19, 2020, 06:03:13 pm
(I'm imagining in your example, there would be 60 IL categories for 1.1, for 1.2, for 2.x, for NTSC, for PAL, for JP, so in total you'd have something like 600 or 2400 categories)


That could be a video too. A running tally of imagining that every time the “create a new category” controversy emerged, what if a new category was made every time? Control style and system gets you to 1,440 categories (60 x 8 x 3), but I’m sure there are other ways to split it.

I would also kind of like to know what the 2.1 PAL record is for each stage.

Brose

See this is the exact problem because control styles were never recorded for their given rankings no one will ever know how certain times were achieved especially someone new who doesn't research much prior to joining and just playing to compete or as a hobby for FUN

I see people complain about my thought process (as others write about how there isn't separate rankings all throughout the years) and how their brain can't comprehend what many people would like to see which is separate rankings (wow your brain doesn't think like others that have thought of this before you were born - wrap your head around that)

These same people also don't provide value to the conversation by stating something about others not being able to purchase a second controller - REALLY? (which is probably the most lame and unthoughtful rebuttal to the actual topic Ive ever heard for a response) 20+ years now since advocating for separate rankings just like say Mario kart 64.com (which no one has an issues updating these 3 different GP modes as well as their SC counterparts rankings with their 16 tracks)

This neglect we will see continued kicking of the bucket and thus far less competition in 1.1 rankings because there is no 1.1 rankings for beginners - The people who can't comprehend will never understand how many players (over 20 years now) seek to play the game and would enjoy much more activity had we had separate rankings - This will always be my stance and opinion

Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: vitorr on August 20, 2020, 10:47:56 am
I don't understand why you want a separate ranking for 1.1 so badly. Let's be more clear on this.

- If you consider 1.2 to be better in general (less prone to timeloss on strafing, easier to learn, more comfortable to play, whatever): why would a new (or old) player pick 1.1 and stick with it?
- If you consider 1.1 to be just as good: why do you want a separate ranking?

One thing on that, though, is that you could at least have a field to fill in which style you got the record, just for fun and tracking - same way we do for console versions. You could see them separately in a different page or whatever, but it's not considered a true separate ranking. Main rankings would still have all styles and console versions combined altogether.

Q: do you want to post like a Dam 0:53 in 1.1 and that be posted on the main page as a World Record, it shows in yellow and it gets tweeted as a WR? Or do you just want the ability to specify the style in which you got your Dam 0:53 PR, so you could compare with others or whatever? If it's second option, I'm totally cool with that (kinda like someone plays in a bad version just for the fun of it, like Deep Sea NTSC).
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: vitorr on August 20, 2020, 10:50:48 am
I kinda oversaw this: "because there is no 1.1 rankings for beginners". Why exactly do you think that 1.1 is better for beginners than 1.2? Have you actually ever tried playing with 1.2 at all? Serious questions. I'd really like to understand more about your obsession with 1.1.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: AZ on August 20, 2020, 12:56:18 pm
Yeah, Sterling; even if we did implement a 1.1 rankings your times would still be multiple seconds behind the likes of Ryan W., Alex, Wouter, Joris - and even my own 1.1 times. I really don't understand your obsession either. I do think that it would be cool to have a 1.1 rankings though, but suggesting a "1.1 rankings for beginners" is a bit absurd.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Brose on August 20, 2020, 03:08:10 pm
I obviously can’t speak from experience of being a top player in any style, although I have gone through making the switch. I got the game damn near the day it was released in 1997 and switched to 1.2 in April, 2020. Granted the intervening 23 years were only spent beating the game casually or throwing proximity mines at my friends in multiplayer. But they were 23 years of pure 1.1.

I don’t think separate rankings are inherently bad, just impractical when trying to make sure the best of the best are forced to go head to head. I’m not an expert in video games, but as an analogy I am an expert in swimming and I think swimming has too many events. Boxing has too many weight classes. Separating into categories is a balance. It’s good to showcase skills in different styles or make competition accessible to all, but too many of them dilutes competition. Just pretty much where I stand on competition in general.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: rhakiath on August 20, 2020, 04:43:28 pm
It's only worth keeping track of a category if people are actually going to compete within that category. That's how speedrunning communities decide how to break down their ranking systems, players all decide what rules make for the most interesting runs and make sense. Generally they do this by simply posting good runs in the category, especially early on in the game's history. Some players might choose to submit TAS or segmented runs as a means to develop strategies; they never show up in the rankings but still make a meaningful contribution. If anyone has an interesting or even completely meme category they want to run, others may see it and decide to give it a shot. Most likely it won't include many top level players or much serious effort, and won't get you the same eternal glory as an untied on the main ranks, it is what it is.

If you'd like to play 1.1 because you believe it's better or works best for you vs learning a new style, go for it. Control styles are nothing more than a means to an end and complaining about the control styles required in modern runs is essentially just being mad at progress invalidating the way levels used to be played. Getting PBs, whether in 1.1 or otherwise, will still be more relevant than trying to gerrymander the rankings.

If it's just a way for a player who already has 1.1 runs to float up to the top without doing anything, then the rankings don't make a ton of sense outside of a footnote type of thing. It's also unlikely we'd ever be able to know exhaustively which control style is used in every run, especially since many older runs lack video. I have played 1.1 and I sucked until I switched (I still suck but have OCB worlds ahead of those days), I will continue to suggest to every new player to learn 1.2 and 2.x as soon as possible, not to reinforce skill in a control style that destroys sticks and loses time on every level.

At the end of the day new players can post in the main rankings if they want to play 1.1, it's not up to us to jerk them off by giving them a special high ranking for a given time just due to playing their preferred control style. Narrowing the field of competition hurts players through a false sense of accomplishment; getting points is possible on any control style and it's a high barrier to break at first, but is something to be proud of as a result.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Brose on August 21, 2020, 08:43:20 am
Not sure why I feel the need to get even more involved in this, but I’ll switch sides and play devil’s advocate for a moment on what a 1.1 record board would accomplish. Actually, in my example it’s not just 1.1, but it has to be 1.1-noCC.

Probably my favorite video game is Ocarina of Time. I have never speedrun it and have no desire to. I preferred to enjoy that game slowly like fine wine. No need to win a chugging contest with it. When I look at its speedrunning leaderboard, I am impressed by all the crazy categories which are under 20 minutes or under 10 minutes. But I also am interested to see the times on the glitchless categories because there’s a part of me asking: “Yeah, but WHAT ABOUT THE WAY I PLAYED IT?!?!? When I was in love with this game as a child in the 90s, I wasn’t doing wrong warps or manipulating the game’s code. I didn’t know that existed and I wouldn’t have cared. So who’s the best at beating the game my way? The way it exists in my fond memories?”

Casual players play 1.1 with no CC. If a casual enthusiast asks, “How fast can you play this game?” and they find out they’re looking at times for two controllers taped together, with rubber bands on the joysticks and using cut scene glitches, they’re going to say, “Never mind, that’s not the game I played.” Even 1.2 will seem like an unfair advantage over the way they originally went for Facility 00 2:05 back in the day.

A 1.1-noCC wouldn’t necessarily be for beginners to set records in. But it would show beginners and casual players what’s achievable in the world that they’ve lived in so far.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: MadmanFlechr on August 21, 2020, 10:58:59 am
Oh yeah I forgot that you have to unlock 1.2 in order to use it
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: ragearainbow on August 21, 2020, 11:14:32 am
Oh yeah I forgot that you have to unlock 1.2 in order to use it

How do you unlock 2.x style it doesn't work for me no matter what I do.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: vitorr on August 21, 2020, 11:42:00 am
Quote
Casual players play 1.1 with no CC. If a casual enthusiast asks, “How fast can you play this game?” and they find out they’re looking at times for two controllers taped together, with rubber bands on the joysticks and using cut scene glitches, they’re going to say, “Never mind, that’s not the game I played.” Even 1.2 will seem like an unfair advantage over the way they originally went for Facility 00 2:05 back in the day.

You're not considering the fact that strats have evolved through time, we found many different timesavers and we know better about movement in general, holding speed, warping doors, boosting and many other small optimizations. Old school players that come in to the rankings won't even notice the control style being used (in most levels, such as Fac 00 as your example). There's just so much else going on.

And speaking of mechanics. With both control styles (which are INGAME options) you have to walk, strafe, aim, shoot and open doors. The difference is that 1.2 is just obviously better because you move with C-buttons and aim with stick, and not the other way around. But in the end it's the same thing. A top player could probably get very good times or even WRs with 1.1 using modern strats, but would not choose to do so, because it's just worse. It's not like "you're losing 10 seconds every level" worse, it just feels worse and it's harder to maintain speed at strafing changes and etc. Btw I was a 1.1 player myself back in 2002 and took me a week to adapt to 1.2 and regret all the time I was using 1.1.

If you know that you can use 1.2 and choose to use 1.1, you're just making your gaming experience worse. You're not a hero by using 1.1. You just did a bad decision.

Quote
A 1.1-noCC wouldn’t necessarily be for beginners to set records in. But it would show beginners and casual players what’s achievable in the world that they’ve lived in so far.

I almost think you guys want to have like a Casual/Beginning Players rankings within the-elite. More like "how do I compare to others that have not played the game for more than hundreths of hours and just want to have fun", instead of "I use 1.1 noCC and want to compare myself with other 1.1 noCC players". If an old school casual player would compare himself with Goose (which is pretty good at 1.1), he's going to suck anyway. It's just that almost no one at a decent level plays with 1.1 because it's just bad.

I will emphasize that I'd like to have the control style being used for tracking. Would be pretty useful. But you guys are using the control style argument for the wrong purpose - as if 1.1 players were part of a casual players category, and 1.2/2.x players were part of hardcore players category.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Irie on August 21, 2020, 12:05:34 pm
Oh yeah I forgot that you have to unlock 1.2 in order to use it

How do you unlock 2.x style it doesn't work for me no matter what I do.

Have a second controller plugged in before you bring up the pause menu and try to switch.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Whiteted on August 21, 2020, 01:49:03 pm
I demand a seperate right-thumb-on-the-stick-1.2-pal-max-100-hours-game-time rankings. And please could you also seperate levels by strats used because Frigate 00a is just awful.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Brose on August 21, 2020, 04:23:38 pm
I almost think you guys want to have like a Casual/Beginning Players rankings within the-elite.

Just to clarify what I want, I want to NOT have a separate 1.1 record board. I said I would "switch sides and play devil’s advocate for a moment." As in argue hypothetically from the side I DON'T agree with. I also explained in a previous post that I've owned this game since its release 23 years ago, and switched to control style 1.2 just 4 months ago at the age of 35 in order to speedrun it. I'll probably have to learn 2.x at some point, and get a Japanese cartridge at some point, both of which will be annoying to me in their own way, but I'll do it to get better.

But you guys are using the control style argument for the wrong purpose - as if 1.1 players were part of a casual players category, and 1.2/2.x players were part of hardcore players category.

To go back to my original analogy, I don't think glitchless OOT runners are un-hardcore. Rather, they provide an example of what it looks like to have a hardcore player play in the style of a casual player. (Goose perhaps being the most recent example in The Elite.)
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Brose on August 21, 2020, 05:22:58 pm
I kinda feel like I'm inspiring people to make some really quick assumptions which aren't true. I say one good thing about 1.1 and it's assumed I'm a 1.1 die-hard. I say one thing against 1.1 and it's assumed that I'm some little kid and Sterling Neblett was taking shrapnel in Khe Sanh while I was crapping in my hands. To clear things up briefly:

Brian Rose, New Jersey, 1984, 5'8" blond GE player. Control style 1.2.   LATER
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Worlds-One on August 23, 2020, 06:07:38 am
Yeah, Sterling; even if we did implement a 1.1 rankings your times would still be multiple seconds behind the likes of Ryan W., Alex, Wouter, Joris - and even my own 1.1 times. I really don't understand your obsession either. I do think that it would be cool to have a 1.1 rankings though, but suggesting a "1.1 rankings for beginners" is a bit absurd.

MY obsession? This isn't even my topic nor have I ever really ever made a topic about 1.1 just talked about it on the board way back when maybe - Obsession? far from that I would say I'm retired and could care less - The point your missing is everything else wrote above rather than who would be infront of who - Its about new players joining the community and throughout the years progressed through particular style starting with 1.1/cruise - Never suggested a 1.1 rankings for beginners lol - Come on man get with it - Its just a simple control style ranking and theres nothing absurd about that - I don't know why you come off so brash as some people have their own opinions as well as suggestions within the community - Again this ISNT my topic however I'm able to reply in the topic right?

The best times per control styles are the WR's and Id never want to change that and not that I could single handily do that however there are some maneuvers on 1.1 that just aren't achievable via the other control styles I'm sure anyone of us could list 10 instances where on a certain level unless you're 2.x that the WR time just couldn't stand a chance with 1.1 control style which is FINE

Separate rankings isn't a big deal so I'm not sure why everyone is so hardheaded about this towards me - Many games as well as sports as Brose eluded too have different classes or modes (Mario kart & wave race 64 boxing for instance) Do believe it would still be today a great idea to implement separate rankings however leaving the WR as they are and simply creating a link to separate rankings if there was enough interest tbh - The fact that were 20 years down the road won't help which trust me I know people are accustomed to the other control styles to complete so why make some lame 1.1/1.2 cruise 2.x rankings - But again if there isn't much push behind it no bother just would of loved to of seen this implemented  earlier on in the infancy of the rankings thats all - Theres nothing else to say or combat me with because whomever is allowed to express what they wish NOW in the present however many of you weren't there 20 years ago when I was advocating for this and knew other styles would come into play in the future (which is what all of you play on now with control styles 2.x) - Im glad its all combined and its worked out just fine the way the rankings are

As for you Brose don't worry about some of the people here - They have their one way of thinking and don't even think about what people thought about before 2.x was even thought of - Meaning I knew separate rankings back in 2000 before 2.x was even toyed with in the menu screen that it would serve its purposes in the future and never was implemented and would of been nice to track what was what with the given control style - Thats what these new age people don't understand - They don't get that logic from when 2.x wasn't a thing however I was advocating for just this as I understood the future would be all different control styles...Mario kart also separates PAL from NSTC I'm pretty sure too within their rankings which GE doesn't

Brose im also glad you're just one of a few annoyed having to "find/buy a NSTC - J cart" and modify your N64 for the cartridge to fit properly and learn 2.x etc etc - There has to be many people like this just to have to compete in the game you gotta spend 200 dollars and find all this equipment - Just ridiculous - How about just plug in the game and use the controller and the styles and move on - Very complicated process for a beginner imho and weve only lost/detered players away from the game Im willing to bet
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Cal on August 23, 2020, 08:27:17 am
Having a separate rankings for 1.1 would be a bad idea for so many reasons.

It would be an interesting data point though, and would be even better if we could add it to the data captured about a run (we already capture date, version...) and then filter the rankings based on that data - the version differences would be the most interesting filter though.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Joris on August 23, 2020, 08:49:48 am
if that ranking existed would 1.3 be part of it ? 1.3 is the same as 1.1 except the A and Z buttons are reversed i think, Ace used to be an absolute master at this control style.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Joris on August 23, 2020, 10:09:43 am
This is what the 1.1 rankings would look like (not including 1.3)

(https://i.imgur.com/cxWdaEj.png)
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: MadmanFlechr on August 23, 2020, 12:58:46 pm
Brose im also glad you're just one of a few annoyed having to "find/buy a NSTC - J cart" and modify your N64 for the cartridge to fit properly and learn 2.x etc etc

2.x is not difficult to learn, this idea of 2.x being an insane challenge needs to die

also don't waste your time modifying a console, simply replace the back on the NTSC-J cart with one from a NTSC game, all you need is one hand and a $5 game-bit screwdriver, no need to dig into a console and fuck things up
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Irie on August 23, 2020, 02:27:19 pm
A Japanese cartridge costs $22 shipped if you live in the states and search on eBay. And as Flechr said a gamebit to swap the back to easily modify the cartridge is a $5 purchase.
Hobbies aren't free. Some cost more than others. This is an extremely cheap hobby. Example for me, Skateboarding gave me $0 in return and I spent thousands throughout my skating "career" whereas I've not spent much at all on GE in almost 4 years of playing and in fact I've made money by streaming through twitch. Not a braggadocios amount but much more than I've spent on every aspect of the hobby. So not only will you hardly spend money running this game, you could even make money with it and recoup your losses. Not something to go into for the money, but def not something to stay away from because of lack of money. If you have time to grind hours in this game, then you also have time to make an extra $20 somewhere if you want a jp cartridge. You can't convince us degens otherwise because we know what else we could be doing with our time lol.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: flicker on August 23, 2020, 02:31:35 pm
Very complicated process for a beginner imho

*points at sig*
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: rhakiath on August 23, 2020, 06:43:48 pm
Wasn't Wouter's B1 17 in 1.1? Looking at the run the height adjustments seem fairly uniform and I'd be shocked if nobody got it in 1.1 before Joris.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: RWG on August 23, 2020, 08:35:14 pm
Wow :o maybe a 1.1 rankings isn't such a bad idea after all!  :rollin: :rollin: :smokin:

Signed, the 1.1 champion.  :smokin:


(yes, Joris' list is actually very, very accurate.  But B1 17 was done by Wouter with 1.1.  And my first unproven 17 was also 1.1).
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Joris on August 24, 2020, 10:12:26 am
that's strange, i was almost completely sure it was 1.2 looking at the run, i'm going to make the change
Might make a version that includes 1.3 too, i think it would be pretty close between Ace and Goose
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Joris on August 24, 2020, 11:01:19 am
1.1 Rankings with the bunker 1 update

(https://i.imgur.com/YdbLLsQ.png)

Spoiler
Even if Ace's 1.3 runs were on the ranks, Goose would still be easily 1st, Ace started playing 1.2 is September 2006 (a bit earlier than that on train) so he switched control styles before getting most of his good times.

(https://i.imgur.com/WZjczVS.png)
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: vitorr on August 24, 2020, 12:44:49 pm
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Just to clarify what I want, I want to NOT have a separate 1.1 record board. I said I would "switch sides and play devil’s advocate for a moment."

Sure, I got that, my bad. My sentence containing "as if you guys" was more like an easy way of putting things, and not condemning you especifically for bringing a different point of view to the discussion.

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To go back to my original analogy, I don't think glitchless OOT runners are un-hardcore. Rather, they provide an example of what it looks like to have a hardcore player play in the style of a casual player. (Goose perhaps being the most recent example in The Elite.)


Sorry mate but your example does not fit to what I said there. The control style is a mere ingame option where you swap around your controls for movement and aim. If you want something closer to what a casual player would do, RTA runs are probably the best in terms of "casual player watching a hardcore player" experience - you have to kill more guards, you don't use 2.x at all, safer strats in many parts. I honestly don't see why using 1.1 or 1.2 would make a difference to the casual watcher. It would be just harder for the players theirselves, and look pretty much the same for the audience - which is VERY different when comparing glitch with non-glitch any/100% OOT runs.

All the major/minor strats and everything else the community has developed so far is what makes the game look "hard" for a casual. Not 1.1 over 1.2. Please.

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Mario kart also separates PAL from NSTC I'm pretty sure too within their rankings which GE doesn't

We do but not as the main rankings. This is a different subject though.

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How about just plug in the game and use the controller and the styles and move on

Like literally almost all new players do. They just commonly switch from 1.1 to 1.2 because it's better. It's fucking IN GAME option ffs. Eventually they get JP versions and perhaps learn 2.x for some levels down the road. You need something to capture your runs, though, which may be the hardest part actually. You can do a LOT with a US version and one controller. And adapting to JP is fairly easy as the guys said.

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Theres nothing else to say or combat me with because whomever is allowed to express what they wish NOW in the present however many of you weren't there 20 years ago

You know, I have been here myself for 19 years, have adapted from 1.1 to 1.2, have been through the lookdown discovery (which I was "against" back then, how stupid I was), have played a few 2.x levels, have got WRs and untied WRs and have great fun with the community throughout all these years, specially now more recently. Not only me, but many other old players have gone through that. The difference from early 2000s is that the community was less "structured" (with our rankings system and etc) and the game was still fresh (both GE and PD). And of course many many strats were developed. And that's it. We are way better now than we were before. Stop saying that "many of you weren't there 20 years ago". It doesn't prove any point and just make your arguments look even more irrelevant.

I'm officially out of this topic now  :nesquik:. Thanks for the discussion, anyway.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Brose on August 25, 2020, 08:26:04 pm
An SZ! Which means we need to know how high Aztec 1:31 is on this ranking (assuming it's 1.1?).

I guess I've added all I can to the control style rankings discussion and said my bit on both sides. Ultimately I'll play to whatever the current standards dictate. I'm just here for a fun time, after all.
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: RWG on August 25, 2020, 09:04:06 pm
Yeah, I believe Wouter's Depot 43/50 were a big deal, because they were done with 1.2.  And I'm pretty sure those were his first ever 1.2 WRs.

B1 17, I think even during Lore, someone mentioned how it was "1.1, no CC, PAL" which is just absurd to think about.  Wouter rarely used CC.  Bcks also rarely used it.  But I used it at all times, much to my detriment.  If you watch my old Train or Aztec runs, you'll see points where I toggle CC on or off (like after the last brake on Train, or at the door before black room on Aztec).
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Joris on August 25, 2020, 09:09:04 pm
I was suspecting Wouter's Depot 00A 0:50 to be 1.2 but not his 43.
Well he still does have SA 0:44 untied and 00A 0:51 untied with 1.1 anyways
Title: Re: Fastest Times On 1.1 Control Style (Do We Know Them?)
Post by: Worlds-One on September 05, 2020, 01:13:57 am
Now if this was done 22 years ago you may of seen better times from me in this 1.1 category (although discoveries  like look down came after my presence more or less along with the certain carts and precise TVs to play on etc) - Not going to lie Aztec times look beatable for sure...agent looks cooked however SA and OOA seem beatable just as a quick glance - There are some cooked runs looking at the rankings with this style...impressive

I would donate to the person for their time and effort especially if it was a full 1.1 rankings...which I'm sure would be hard to track everyones 1.1 times accurately (outside the WR holders) Great job on the 1.1 rankings after 22 years of deliberating there it is!