The Elite Forum

Nonsense Time => FFA => Topic started by: RWG on December 14, 2020, 12:49:22 am

Title: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: RWG on December 14, 2020, 12:49:22 am
(https://i.imgur.com/1bJBk25.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/REHXMPN.png)

Quote
> you don't need more than 16 GB RAM!  It's more than enough!

is this statement, true, or false?  Have you, yourself, personally, ever used more than 16 GB  RAM at once??

Tonight, casually, while editing, watching a stream, and having a handful of tabs open for research/fact checking/casual browsing; I am caking into 24 GB of RAM usage.  I'm already starting to regret "only" upgrading from 32 GB to 64 GB on Black Friday; rather than 32 GB to 96 GB.  Oh well.  Perhaps my next build, I'll go for 256 GB of RAM and all will be well, for at least a little while.

I would imagine that, most folks in this community regularly use more than 16 GB RAM, since they'll often have open Steam, OBS, Discord, multiple Chrome tabs, etc.  I would be shocked of "no" even gets a single vote.
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: Yendis on December 14, 2020, 03:08:50 am
Flawed poll as not many people have 32GB at this point and therefor can't use more than 16. I'm sure I would've passed 16GB at home point if I had more.

Although, I don't recall using all 16GB at any point. Usually it's other components that is limiting my computer in one way or another.
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: Sharpeye468 on December 14, 2020, 03:19:59 am
Quote
Have you, yourself, personally, ever used more than 16 GB RAM at once??

I have submitted a yes to this excellent continuation of the fellas series, even though the question was surprisingly unclear for my purpose. Through remote running of code, I've had some of my code require allocation of at least 32 GB of memory, so in terms of the question I have myself, personally, used more than 16 GB of RAM at once.
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: RWG on December 14, 2020, 03:28:07 am
Flawed poll as not many people have 32GB at this point and therefor can't use more than 16. I'm sure I would've passed 16GB at home point if I had more.

Although, I don't recall using all 16GB at any point. Usually it's other components that is limiting my computer in one way or another.

Good point, I didn't even stop to consider than some folks *literally cannot* use more than 16 GB RAM at a time, because they do not physically possess more than 16 GB RAM in their computer.  This option was just simply too shocking and stunning for me to consider, so I blocked it from being processed by my mind; and I apologize for the lack of clarity in the question.
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: Cal on December 14, 2020, 05:52:55 am
(https://i.imgur.com/WY6pvEc.png)

Used is an interesting term, I have 32 but I'm not sure I've ever gone over 16  :thinking:
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: SGT RAGEQUIT on December 14, 2020, 08:39:01 am
Can some of my code take up literally all my computer's resources? Sure, but I run it with the resources it needs, not with what it wants.
I can't think of any situation where i'd have up that many tabs (and over 3 different browsers for some reason).
I know we've offered several tab management solutions before, seems like you haven't picked any up  :nesquik:
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: OHMSS on December 14, 2020, 11:45:51 am
I believe that Windows, Chrome, Premiere etc will cache all kinds of data when they see excess free RAM. Because why not? They would not do that if you just had 8 GB RAM or less (e.g., Chrome might just discard all data of a tab you didn't navigate to in the last hour). Keeping data in the RAM can speed things up, but probably isn't super important most of the time. Thus, you might do just fine with 16 GB. But since you obviously do a lot of heavy video editing, there's no harm in having a bit more. Going beyond 64 GB seems like a complete waste though ... unless you step your game up to 4K content (of N64 gameplay :kappa: ).
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: rhakiath on December 14, 2020, 11:47:00 am
I think the most I've actually used at once is about 20GB, I have 32 on my PC and typically don't use over 10GB or so unless I'm really trying to, with both monitors open. I think this was a combination of coding projects, Skype, browser, and maybe doing some graphic design in GIMP. Windows 10 generally eats up a few GB on its own but with 32GB it's nothing significant. I've had a full screen game running along with 3 streams at once on my second monitor and some minor background stuff, I think it still capped at 14GB or so.

Spoiler
-This isn't counting artificial benchmarks or the like.

-I don't use Chrome and don't keep billions of tabs open at once. I actually prefer to keep my browsing on my laptop so I can reference it on the side without taking up screen space and further control my audio levels. I'm sure many folks do something similar with their phones, but my laptop only has 4GB of RAM as it's ancient so even combining both systems it doesn't change my peak numbers much.

-I don't really do video editing or 3D modeling, which can easily bloat the system's memory budget. I also do run games in 1440p generally, and have a 4k second monitor but it's in portrait mode so therefore I don't run any 4k content as a rule. I suspect running a browser preferring higher resolution content probably also skyrockets certain resources but for me unless I'm watching a stream or video in full screen it's usually pretty low res. After all I consider it fairly pointless to watch a stream of a 20 year old game above 720p which is a large portion of my content consumption.

-Any coding I do is strictly nothing fancy, though some projects can run fairly large my average use case is not heavy duty as Sharpeye alluded to.

In fact it's possible to overrun your physical RAM in some cases, though virtual memory will be terribly slow since it generally has to read portions in and out any time you change tasks. Not every OS will handle this well and it borders on unusable in some cases. My laptop uses OSX and only 4GB RAM, and I can easily go over that if I'm running anything demanding alongside a browser. When I switch apps it will generally take a decent amount of time to shuffle everything around and make the new app usable. As long as I'm just sticking with a browser on this machine and not multitasking I still can effectively use the whole memory capacity on that application and it runs fine.


Although many of us may not go over half usage with 32GB it is more optimal than 16 for the following reasons:

-The OS and background tasks will take up a few GB at all times. W10 is especially annoying about resource management and is very defiant to your attempts at productivity with self updates and the like. For me right now it's about 5-6GB with nothing open. If you only have 16 measly GB then upwards of 30% of your memory will likely be dead at all times, perhaps more. With 32GB+ you have more than double the usable budget, roughly 10GB vs 26GB in practice.

-Future proofing. Not only will the OS only continue to bloat to ensure planned obselescence and the sales of future generations of hardware, but every other application and the content itself is going to grow in a couple years. The 16GB will hit a hard ceiling quickly; that 5-6 GB being used on the OS could quickly become 8-10 without most users even noticing. Plus as more users are dealing with higher res content it will use a much bigger slice of memory.

-Hitting the max CPU or GPU usage is considered pretty normal under some use cases like gaming that are designed to make full use of resources. If you max out your memory you'll have to rely on virtual memory which is a bad time as I mentioned above. When buying a system, it's fine to buy a CPU or GPU equal to your needs, even if there's no headroom or it may fade in a couple years; at least you'll get the performance you reasonably expect. If you buy memory equal to what you use, you'll be fucked. It's the same mistake as purchasing a pool or bathtub exactly equal to your body's volume.

-RAM is generally very cheap right now compared to a few years ago, 32GB decent speed kits are available from 120$ at a glance on Newegg. You can still overbuy by getting overpriced RGB laden modules or trying to get super high speeds which generally come with a disproportionate increase in price for the modest advantages, but getting double the amount you expect to use is really not that bad from a price standpoint. It's not like the 60$ difference will let you upgrade to a 3080 GPU or something.
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: Seanjohn on December 14, 2020, 12:23:47 pm
I'm one of those people with only 16GB of RAM because I mostly use a laptop. My apartment isn't big enough to put my desktop (I built one a couple of years ago but it's sidelined at the moment) and I work outside of the office a lot, or at least I used to before the pandemic so I needed something portable. I have an SSD though so if I dip into virtual memory it's not as bad as a HD would be.

A more useful poll might have been "What's the maximum amount of RAM you've used, rounded up to the nearest option?" with buckets like 8GB (lol), 16, 32, 64, 96 and 128. This would answer your original question in addition to figuring out how much RAM would generally be needed to never max it out.

Anyway I answered yes because I have dipped into virtual memory and I believe that should count since it means I really do need more than 16GB, I just don't have it.
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: RWG on December 14, 2020, 01:15:41 pm
I know we've offered several tab management solutions before, seems like you haven't picked any up  :nesquik:

I do regularly close out tabs with "Session Buddy" when things get overwhelming.  But "The Great Suspender" would mess with me too often during SpeedLore and other moments.  Yeah, you can tell it not to suspend certain tabs, but when you are working with 50+ tabs, you're gonna forget to tell it not to suspend some, and it got annoying over time.  I haven't had it turned on in a while.  (Though I do have it turned on, on my laptop).

My "solution" was building a PC with 64 GB RAM, it runs like a dream.  I think I spent around $300 CAD total on those 4 x 16 GB RAM units; and when you consider I don't really buy video games, alcohol, etc, I'm more than happy with that expense.  Having 96 GB or 128 GB would just be really cool though; maybe some day.

I had no idea that "coding" was so RAM intensive.  I always just thought it was basically using a notepad file and entering lines of text.  This has been very informative for me, thanks.
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: Happens on December 14, 2020, 02:10:24 pm
I am 99% sure I have while streaming some Ableton sessions with chrome open, but I’ll have to try it again to confirm.
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: mw on December 14, 2020, 02:29:40 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/NvUaw7R.png)

Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: RWG on December 14, 2020, 02:53:06 pm
I don't know why it says that, the RAM I bought was all 3200 MHz.  Perhaps this is an issue that needs fixing.
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: rhakiath on December 14, 2020, 03:07:10 pm
Not that RAM speed is as important as it may seem in most cases, but there are a lot of bugs relating to RAM speed in Windows 10. Not only does the system often misreport the frequency, my sticks are 3000 and are unhappy about booting if I don't downclock to 2667 or so in the BIOS. It doesn't make a lick of difference however, and the timings usually matter as much as the frequency anyway.

I understand anything considerably above 3000 can be pretty unstable and finicky as well so 3200-3600 is probably the max speed that's worth getting right now. When DDR5 modules come out they'll have a lot better reliability and lower power/thermals. At the moment anything high speed is essentially super overclocked and runs hot out of the box. The higher speed you go for the more tuning you'll have to likely go through for it to perform; good for enthusiast overclockers but not worth it for most.
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: mw on December 14, 2020, 03:23:49 pm
I don't know why it says that, the RAM I bought was all 3200 MHz.  Perhaps this is an issue that needs fixing.

You almost certainly haven't enabled XMP in the BIOS.
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: RWG on December 14, 2020, 03:33:54 pm
thank you for the tip, I'll check out a youtube tutorial or two on the matter.
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: gideon on December 14, 2020, 03:43:49 pm
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/750986599252361227/766308176659218442/unknown.png)
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: dildonius on December 14, 2020, 04:45:47 pm
I've come pretty close a few times when using Windows but I haven't yet built a PC with more than 16 GB.
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: TheFlash on December 14, 2020, 05:24:49 pm
Well, it's more than enough to host a website about Nintendo 64 games in 2020:

(https://www.upload.speedrunwiki.com/images/misc/ScreenShot20201214at42300PM.png)
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: flukey lukey on December 14, 2020, 09:59:16 pm
My honest answer is: I don't know.
Title: Re: Fellas [PART 8]
Post by: RWG on January 13, 2021, 06:03:16 am
Wow, just now, I figured I had some time to mess around with my BIOS and was able to ENABLE XMP (Extreme Memory Performance, is it?)  SO a BIG THANK YOU to MW for making me aware of this issue, and helping me unlock the true speed of my beast computer.  Cheerio!