The Elite Forum

Nonsense Time => FFA => Topic started by: RWG on December 21, 2020, 08:39:12 pm

Title: Suggest a Laptop 💻
Post by: RWG on December 21, 2020, 08:39:12 pm
Hello my dear friends,

The time has come, my current laptop is over 5 years old now; a MSI CX61.  It served me well, and after multiple repairs and much work done, it's finally time for it to be taken out behind the farm.

Obviously, I don't really know all that much about the latest tech stuff, and I know many folks here are good dudes who work in the technology industry; perhaps in repair shops, or computer stores, or are otherwise very familiar with the latest in laptop & computer technology.   As such, I would love some recommendations for a new laptop.

The use of this laptop would be mostly as a backup computer... not something I will be usually video editing with, but something that I might have to edit with, in extenuating circumstances, or while at the cabin/away from office.  The main workload of this laptop would be, opening dozens of tabs while doing research for video ideas, writing text in Google Docs, and opening Photoshop & Premiere every now and then to create the odd meme (think of the memes that are posted to @theelitememes).  I actually did edit the full Bunker 1 Agent SpeedLore episode on this laptop, (because I was at the cabin at the time), which wasn't a breeze at all.  So a speedy, high-res laptop, would be nice.

There are three criteria that are *necessary* in any laptop I would use...

• at least 16 GB RAM
• backlit keyboard (to see typing at night)

Ok I guess that's only two criteria.  My price range would ideally be around $1000 CAD, but I'm realizing that a laptop with 16 GB RAM is probably going to cost me more in the $1200-1400 CAD range; and perhaps even more.  (For those who ceebs looking up an exchange rate; CAD is roughly 30% more than USD.  So this price range is roughly $850-1200 USD). (I admit, I have fun looking at the maxed out workstations which cost like $10,000).

Suggestions for make & model of laptop are welcome, as well as any general laptop advice.  Mega-bonus points for any suggestions that have a direct link to a product on newegg.ca or canadacomputers.com.

What about a two-monitor solution for a laptop?  Any knowledge or information on this would be welcome as well.

Anyhow, literally any response to my query would be deeply appreciated.  So thanks!

💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻💻
Title: Re: Suggest a Laptop 💻
Post by: rhakiath on December 21, 2020, 10:24:09 pm
Spoiler
I've been using the same 13" macbook pro for 7 years and I'll likely upgrade ASAP in 2021 as well. What makes me hesitant to upgrade is the fact that my 2560x1600 screen is still better than most of the market, the new macs are overpriced with shitty specs (especially RAM and SSD unless you drop an extra 800$ or so) and won't support installing other OS except on the Intel models, and the fact that Apple laptops in my experience really kick ass in terms of build quality in spite of their shortcomings.

So I can get an Intel mac which are being discontinued, one of the new ARM based ones which are going to be teething a new processor architecture and won't support Windows 10 partitions, or go with a Windows native laptop. I'm currently leaning towards the latter, though if W10 could install on the new macs I'd probably save up for a properly spec'ed one and try to get another 7 years out of it. Macs come with a lot of nice-to-have features like the backlit keyboard, top tier screens and magnetic power adapter so by the time you find alternatives with every feature you usually pay a lot either way. Most likely I'll keep an eye open for a solid AMD laptop with a decent GPU and hopefully pay under 2 grand.

You'll generally find 3 main market segments:
 
Spoiler
-Go for the thin/light form factor and have shitty specs and build quality, often hybrid tablet things where the keyboard is an afterthought. The plus is that these tend to be fairly cheap overall since it's cheaper to make "minimalist" designs than robust ones. Beware models lacking the needed ports and whatnot; it's apparently become acceptable to have no standard USB ports, SD slot, Headphone jack, etc so buyer beware if any of that is important to you; although you can get most of that via a dongle. One external monitor support will be pretty standard on stuff like this. You may also have to give up a precious USB-C or thunderbolt port to do so. This would include models like the LG Gram or Macbook Air.

-Go for the GAMER market, have bulky and loud aesthetics and high refresh monitors (which I'm not using it for) and almost always be limited to 1080p. However they tend to have good specs for the money and generally can offer good value for an above average feature set. Getting 2 external displays plus the native one is fairly common if the model has a good GPU, which arguably makes a major difference compared to the other specs. Being bulky is also a plus; usually you'll have better thermals and battery life under heavy use compared to a daintier form factor since they often have better fans and heat sinks. Having the best CPU and GPU doesn't matter if you can only run it at 60% due to heat, and production workloads will benefit from a robust design. There are plenty of brands in this segment including MSI and you should be able to find prices ranging from 800-1400$US, I don't really know how to steer you except to say Razer has shitty proprietary software you should stay clear of (though apparently their hardware is fairly good).

-Go for more of a loaded workstation. I can have my 4K screen, plenty of RAM and a beefy CPU as well as lots of ports and a nice keyboard and battery. The catch is that they cost a lot for something that's a supplementary device.

Personally I'd probably go for the gamer ones, they'll have good specs for cheap and more than the minimum features. Some things like high res screens and above 16GB memory though, you may have to pay for, along with a decent size SSD.


One which I was looking at that intrigued me was the Asus Zenbook Duo/Pro Duo. The main difference is in the CPU and other specs, and the pro has a 4k main screen as opposed to 1080p. The issue is that the pro is more in the 2500-3000$US range and seems a bit expensive for the specs (I didn't see a lot of available models on the Canadian newegg listings, possibly just a temporary shortage). the non pro is available with 16GB RAM around half that, but still at the higher end of your budget and not inclusive of all your features.

The cool part about both models is that they have a second full width screen. This might make the keyboard and touchpad a bit more cramped, but it seems really nice for multitasking and should have touchscreen/stylus support. I'm not sure if it has a backlit keyboard or not. For light production work I have to think this second screen would be a nice plus though. It may not be the most budget friendly and dropping down to a 1080p screen on the more affordable one might hurt, but getting 2 screens built into a normal form factor could be an interesting alternative or enhancement to a multi monitor setup.

I can't vouch for ASUS personally and haven't seen a ton of reviews, but this model stood out to me as something rather unique in a market full of similar setups.
Title: Re: Suggest a Laptop 💻
Post by: RWG on December 21, 2020, 11:17:25 pm
Thanks for the input and advice!

Ideally, I would lean towards a "workstation".  It seems to fit the overall bill of what I want, quite well.  But yes, the price range seems to be much on the higher end.  Especially for a "supplemental device" as you so eloquently put it.  Considering my current PC build, with 64 GB RAM and a 1660 GTX Super cost me under $3,000 CAD, it would be absolutely ridiculous to come close to that kind of bill on a supplemental device.

So that being said, I will likely settle for a "GAMER" laptop.  I certainly do not mind the bulkiness... I like a robust machine, especially since I often chuck it in the trunk of a vehicle while driving 2h to the cabin.  (I have looked at "Rugged Workstations" which are f'ing epic, but I don't want to spend like $5k on that... would be so cool though).

I have seen those ASUS Zenbooks.  I trust ASUS, having had good experience with their products over my lifetime, so I may eventually bite on that.  They also have this "ROG Zephyrus" which seems to be their lower end gaming laptop, but it seems reviews on those are more mixed.  Ugh, it's literally such a tough decision.

Any advice on getting a "refurbished" laptop?  It seems risky, but may end up being just the ticket, to find something fairly priced, with good specs.
Title: Re: Suggest a Laptop 💻
Post by: Alka Maass on December 22, 2020, 12:39:05 am
I currently use an acer aspire a717-72g

also something to watch out for flimsy/fragile hinges, just google the laptop name/models and hinge issues to check before buying a laptop, my previous laptop died because the hinge situation got so bad it couldn't charge anymore, I currently use it with a second monitor plugged in via hdmi
Title: Re: Suggest a Laptop 💻
Post by: rhakiath on December 22, 2020, 01:01:53 am
I agree with Alka's point, usually if they fail on a non user replaceable part it's going to be a hinge, fan, or screen. That's one thing that's gotten my laptop to last so long, the hinge has only started to loosen up in the past year (and I haven't been gentle with it) and I've been through several chargers.

If there's one final point to mention, it's that many users in photo and video editing will demand color accurate monitors and can be very OCD about it. Personally I think using an external one will mitigate things, and for something where editing isn't the primary purpose it's probably not worth burning money on that feature, but keep it in mind I guess. With high FPS panels that aren't IPS, often times brightness and color accuracy will be sacrificed.

As far as refurbs go, if you can knock 100$+ off the price it could be pretty worth it, especially if you make sure to check it over and take advantage of any return period or warranty if needed. The issue is that the good models might get snapped up, so you'd have some oddly spec'ed or older models to pick, although it might stretch your budget a good bit if you can find something like an 8th gen intel CPU with good overall specs under 1000$. Going with a major retailer like Newegg will probably minimize any risk as well. With laptops, getting at the internals to upgrade things like RAM and the SSD isn't simple but in some cases you might be able to make it work on an otherwise skimpy setup. Don't assume the internals are user serviceable though, some motherboards on laptops use soldered components that are essentially permanent. If there is an open RAM slot or space to add storage, make sure to do your homework about what it will entail to upgrade things in terms of cost and work. Laptops vary a lot in terms of repairability.

Since it's not something you're likely to solely rely on to make a living, it's probably worth being able to save money on a refurb to put towards some accessories such as cable adapters, maybe a power bank or usb hub, card reader, etc. If you can hit on a 100$ discount that would likely give you a good chunk towards a cheap monitor or TV; it could give you the ability to buy something and keep it at your cabin, or improve your monitor budget overall. Or indeed, spend the 100$ on Bitcoin and potentially finance your entire next laptop purchase in a few years.

Other than that, I'd say go with your gut or with a trusted brand. Getting something ideal without compromise is expensive in this market. As long as you can tick most of your important boxes and get good value, don't worry about having a compromise or two. The only regret you should worry about would be if you upgraded unnecessarily and wasted your money, which wouldn't be the case for a venerable 5 year old laptop to a mid range one today.
Title: Re: Suggest a Laptop 💻
Post by: Dusky on December 22, 2020, 03:21:25 am
Quick two cents here, there has a been a really fine line being gapped in recent years between good specs on a "gaming" laptop and the loud aesthetics, you can get some not so obnoxious looking laptops with good specs at decent prices nowadays. Albeit the market is kinda fucked up right now, I've kept my eye on the XPS in recent times and they seem pretty nice, might be what I get in the near future.
Title: Re: Suggest a Laptop 💻
Post by: RWG on December 22, 2020, 05:30:35 am
Thanks for all the input!  Dell XPS do look nice, but I think they are a little out of my desired price range.

I think I would prefer a more "business/workstation" laptop, than a gaming one.  But I'd take a gaming one if that's what happens.

I found this, very much in my price range; https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/ACER-TravelMate-P658-15-6-Laptop-Intel-Core-i5-6200U-20GB-DDR4-RAM-256GB-SSD-Windows-10-Pro-New/PRD64NHBO216MAR

The one in stock has 20 GB RAM but only a 6th gen i5 processor.  Is that getting too old?  (my current laptop has a 4th generation i5, so this would still be an improvement).
Title: Re: Suggest a Laptop 💻
Post by: rhakiath on December 22, 2020, 11:42:50 am
I have to say, looking at what's available now it seems very picked clean. I'd consider holding off until at least after CES in January and perhaps there will be more options. Or perhaps you could get something open box right after Xmas if you keep a sharp eye.

For the one you posted, it has a 6200u processor, which would be pretty solid for web browsing and minor tasks but probably not much different than a 4th gen i5 for video editing. The big issues I see with it are the 720p screen, only 256GB SSD and the processor only having 4 threads. For that it really would only be well suited for more of a full sized netbook sort of role IMO.

I'd say you want 4 cores/8 threads at a minimum for it to be a nice upgrade, and 6 or 8 cores would be a big bonus for editing since more cores and threads tend to help for that. However if you decide the production work isn't as important, then it should give you a lot more options and lower price range.

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/laptop.html#cpumark

The chart isn't totally complete but you can get a good idea of how things will stack up in thread intensive workloads like editing. You can also compare specific models not found there by googling them since not all get added to the chart.

When it comes to web browsing and basic tasks in Windows you're not likely to utilize more than 2 or maybe 4 threads, and clock speed will have more of an effect. Those extra cores can still help with multitasking. Getting a cpu with a 20k score won't change much for browsing Reddit but in production workloads it could scale things like rendering by nearly as much as the score reflects.

Good ones to target as a nice significant upgrade from a 4th gen i5:
-intel 8565u or 8550u, both available on a range of models
-intel 8750h, or 9/10750h, these can be found on many gaming laptops like this one:
https://www.newegg.ca/aluminum-black-msi-gf-series-gf65-9sexr-436ca-thin-gaming-entertainment/p/N82E16834155408?Item=N82E16834155408&Description=GF65&cm_re=GF65-_-34-155-408-_-Product
(This model seems pretty good spec wise and it's available in a lot of variations, I haven't looked much at reviews though.) This is probably one of the stronger CPU options for both clock speed and the fact that it's 6c/12t.
-any ryzen 3000 or higher with 4+ cores, even 2000
-most intel 10th gen or higher, some of the U or especially Y suffix denotes lower power usage CPUs so they will tend to be less useful for full workloads in some cases.
-anything over 5000 points on the chart in general

The only i5-4xxx on the chart is around 1800 points, the 6200u from what I can tell is at 3000 so it should be an ok upgrade for day to day tasks, but you'd notice a big difference in editing if you went for something a bit higher. There should be benchmarks more directly suited to things like Premiere if you were interested in that aspect of performance.

Spoiler
https://www.newegg.ca/black-msi-gf-series-gf63-thin-9scx-005-gaming-entertainment/p/N82E16834155354?Item=N82E16834155354&Description=msi%20laptop&cm_re=msi_laptop-_-34-155-354-_-Product

This one is sub 1k$ Canadian, the CPU will have around 7000 benchmark points, it has a built in GPU which will help modestly with some editing tasks, and the RAM and SSD are both upgradeable. There are other configurations if you can find it with closer to the specs you want. Plus you're not paying for a 144hz screen but still get HD resolution. Another 8GB RAM seemed to cost around 50$ US for a matching stick to the included one.
Title: Re: Suggest a Laptop 💻
Post by: RWG on December 23, 2020, 12:16:08 am
Yeah, I think the whole "work from home" phenomenon resulted in a lot of laptops (and mics, webcams, etc) getting bought up rapidly.

Thanks for the benchmark link, it's very handy.  Makes me realize just how much better Ryzen CPUs are than Intel (most of the time).  Given that I love RAM, that CPU chart is the next most important thing.  So it'll help prevent me from buying some dud.

This one looks like the ticket tbh: https://www.newegg.ca/fortress-gray-asus-tuf-gaming-tuf506ih-rs74-gaming-entertainment/p/N82E16834235405?Item=N82E16834235405

Has the 16 GB RAM and a Ryzen 7 4800H; the 2nd highest ranking CPU on that benchmark chart.  $1199, so it's within my budget... I think I'll give it until Boxing Day and see if I can nab one.

I think I'm just gonna try to put this out of my head for the next few days, and try to pick up something decent on Boxing Day.  I might have to spring up around $1300 CAD, but I'll survive.  Thank you for all the help, it's been very useful and much appreciated 🙏🙏
Title: Re: Suggest a Laptop 💻
Post by: RWG on December 27, 2020, 10:11:12 pm
I ended up getting an Acer Nitro 5, it ticked all the boxes I needed it to.  It seems pretty decent so far.  Hopefully it serves me well.  THANKS RHAKIATH, DUSKY AND ALKAMAS!!!!  MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!!!