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The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: DYM on February 15, 2021, 08:10:21 am

Title: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: DYM on February 15, 2021, 08:10:21 am
BDown linked this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ7qUswMsPA&t=2m58s) in the-elite Discord earlier, in which the narrator states the Depot warp as the hardest speedrunning trick in GoldenEye. However, the video itself exaggerates this fact, as he later correctly states that the the WR was lowered with the same trick the same day, tied by multiple people, and then untied to 0:23 a day or two later. After all, no trick can be considered the hardest if almost every active player can mindlessly grind it out, right?

What do you think is the hardest trick to pull off in the entire game? It didn't seem fitting to make this a poll as there are several dozens of tricks in the game. I use the word trick loosely (to no one's surprise): the r-lean bug throw from the start on Frig SA is a trick; making it back to Natalya without the lift closing at the start on Control SA/00A could be considered a trick; the 8-boost volley on Runway Agent; 2.x; the YABT; and so on.

I say it's the fast, closed crate-hall door cycle on Silo 00A. It has been a long time since I've played the level, but based on what I remember, it checks the following points for me: 1) you need incredibly good movement through most of the level to make it fast that far; 2) you need unusually good luck with some of the doors opening fast by guards as well; 3) only a single player in the past 10-15 years has been able to pull it off; 4) most people will not even attempt to go for that strategy as they will want to pick up the body armor on the JP version.

Post away what you think is the hardest speedrunning trick in GoldenEye!
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Yendis on February 15, 2021, 08:21:43 am
I've had runs fast enough for the closed crate hall door on Silo 00 with body armor, but it's really hard to react to it properly without losing time.

I'd say maybe the B2 SA WR strat trick as afaik multiple people have tried to get a run with it, but no one has managed to get close to the untied yet. And B2 SA is a very popular level historically.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Wyst3r on February 15, 2021, 08:49:38 am
There are many TAS-only (?) tricks, which perhaps shouldn't count? OOK, Fac 1-guard lure, B2 00A non-stop no-detour clipboard lure, S1 tree shots etc...

Among the doable ones, I'll just list some of the harder ones in random order (some of them being grindable by anyone for sure):
Dam SA double window alarms
S2 00A double nade
Train 00A Ouro shot
Aztec 00A BA skip


Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: DYM on February 15, 2021, 09:04:25 am
Double Dam alarms sounds like something many people could do, if they spent dozens of hours on it to get the muscle memory and find the precise cues. Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem TOO difficult. A trick accessible to many. Same with the S2 00A double nade; you just grind it out.

Train 00A Ouro shot sounds like an insane one. Imagine Aztec crouch strat with no BA, even on SA. Would be crazy.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Whiteted on February 15, 2021, 09:23:01 am
Quote from: Wyst3r on February 15, 2021, 08:49:38 am
B2 00A non-stop no-detour clipboard lure

I was asked about this recently and I know nothing about it - is it straight up impossible on console? Does it just create too much lag?

And 2 extra for the list: Frig 00a nade throw route & Streets A 3 GLs . More here (https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=23783.msg467834#msg467834) probably I just glanced through.

S2 double nade has been struck from history no? An optimal TAS probably uses one for the console and r leans the other for cam #1 but for a human 1 nade will allow everything else to be more cooked
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: SammoSammy on February 15, 2021, 09:32:14 am
To me the hardest trick should be determined by two metrics - likelihood of success (Depot Warp ranks high for this) and complexity/challenge of inputs required (Depot Warp ranks very low for this). The Depot Warp cannot be considered a hard trick because there is essentially no complexity to the inputs required to perform it. You're basically playing the game as we play every level - strafing, turning and pressing A to warp. It's certainly a hard warp and the timing is more crucial, but it's just a warp at the end of the day.

Conversely, you can't really consider a trick such as Val Strafing a hard trick, because while the inputs might be quite complex (especially with 2.x), the trick can't really fail. At worst, you lose time, but that doesn't mean you didn't do the trick, you just didn't do it optimally.

With that in mind, we can start considering what is the hardest trick in the game. I have to disagree with Ace's definition of a trick though. He has basically stated that the hardest trick in the game is playing the game very well. Hitting a certain door cycle in some level, while certainly a notable thing one can do, an accomplishment within a level that is worthy of its own distinction, it's not really a trick per se. I've thought a lot about a definition of a trick in speedrunning, and the best I can come up with is this:

A distinct, novel and non-trivial way of interacting with the game to accomplish a goal (typically saving time)

Maybe people can help refine that, but I think for something to be worthy of the word trick it must be a somewhat unique, distinct action. Ace's example of hitting a certain door cycle through exceptional yet conventional play fails to meet my criteria of "novel" and "distinct" to be called a trick. With that in mind, here is my extensive but not exhaustive list of tricks in GoldenEye:

All Warps (including Depot Warp)
Most far bug throws
Shooting things through walls (s2, dam sa, s1 locks??)
Nade juggling
GL self boosts
All R-leans and r-lean derivatives
Boris running
2.x hostage release on Frig
b2 lures (these lures are included because they're more complex than just shooting as you run through the level normally a la Silo, Dam 00, etc.)
Val strafing
Trev shot
Archives box boost (because there's more going on with it than typical "shoot this box as you run past it" box boosts)
Bounce boost on streets
Depot cutscene lure
Train shot
Backing up Nat (all variants)
Double mine glass break on Control
All mine throws through walls (Cavs SA, Control)
Non-conventional Cradle Trev kills (suicide, drone, double headshot, grenade, etc.)
All Jaws-less Glass Opens on Aztec
Xenia mine kill  :nesquik:

I'd also like to take a moment to make a distinction between tricks and strats. Shooting the first camera from very far away is a strat. Shooting a camera through a fence, mountain and hut is a trick.

With all that in mind, going off my list, the hardest is s1 locks :nesquik: . But putting aside tricks that may potentially never be performed, I'd say the hardest trick in the game is either:


Can't really pick one, but those are my thought on the subject.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: ragearainbow on February 15, 2021, 09:40:38 am
I don't think there are many R-lean experts otherwise runway 28 would have been tied.

The video seems to get a few things wrong if you read the comments.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: tehmasta on February 15, 2021, 12:20:43 pm
no other levels even has a 2sec untied.....and yet, runway, a very short level, has a whopping 4sec untied WR. That's my pick for hardest trick based on that alone. You'd think it was TAS-only, and yet....
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: BK on February 15, 2021, 01:12:02 pm
Quote from: tehmasta on February 15, 2021, 12:20:43 pm
no other levels even has a 2sec untied.....and yet, runway, a very short level, has a whopping 4sec untied WR. That's my pick for hardest trick based on that alone. You'd think it was TAS-only, and yet....
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/661508233411821572/810936363863900170/nesquikb2.png)

 :nesquik:
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Cal on February 16, 2021, 06:27:13 am
Quote from: tehmasta on February 15, 2021, 12:20:43 pm
no other levels even has a 2sec untied.....and yet, runway, a very short level, has a whopping 4sec untied WR. That's my pick for hardest trick based on that alone. You'd think it was TAS-only, and yet....

<B> isn't the hard objective to complete, apparently it's <C>  :nesquik:
https://www.twitch.tv/cal_brabham/clip/OutstandingPricklyWaterTwitchRaid

Sorry Wally
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: RWG on February 16, 2021, 04:50:58 pm
It's probably the strats needed for Runway 00A 27; I mean, after all, only one person has lower than 32.

There are probably some even harder tricks that have never been hit in a WR run yet... perhaps skipping a single pause without losing time on Silo 00A.  Perhaps the reverse double-pipe warp on Frigate.  I mean, the reverse double pipe warp is so hard that not a single person has EVER hit it on a WR pace "failed" run.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Whiteted on February 16, 2021, 05:40:05 pm
Reverse pipe warp is easy if you know *the trick*.
Hitting WR pace is just hard whatever strat you use.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Jimbo on February 16, 2021, 06:30:47 pm
My boomer answer is simply getting the WR strat on Frig 00 to complete. I'm fairly certain I could learn Runway 00 sub 32 strat from scratch and get a completion faster than I'd ever get Frigate 00A 1:06 or so.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Blue Khakis on February 16, 2021, 07:06:03 pm
Quote from: RWG on February 16, 2021, 04:50:58 pm
It's probably the strats needed for Runway 00A 27; I mean, after all, only one person has lower than 32.
I seem to remember Grav suggesting that 27 would require different routing rather than any new trick, though I don't know how much research he ended up doing into it.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: ragearainbow on February 17, 2021, 04:15:02 am
Could be a good video idea is 27 possible? I thought the stage was maxed out.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: OHMSS on February 17, 2021, 06:03:45 am
Is there any video of the fast, closed crate-hall door cycle on Silo 00A? I'm curious.

Regarding Runway 00A, it seems like Grav's 28 relies on getting the last drone with the first wave of the nade explosion, requiring absurd precision. When we also consider how long it took him and that no other player seems to be more qualified to do it, it's certainly a strong contender for the hardest trick. Hard to tell though for an underplayed strat.

Maybe completing a clean run on Jungle 00A with a full-speed Xenia is a contender too? Nobody ever managed to do that (Illu did it on SA (https://rankings.the-elite.net/~Illu/time/84360)).


Quote from: ragearainbow on February 17, 2021, 04:15:02 am
Could be a good video idea is 27 possible? I thought the stage was maxed out.

Maxed is such a strong word for such an insane level. Grav missed the self boost and didn't use 2.x (is it compatible with R-leaning? idk). Also his sideways movement after the 2nd throw (battery) might be something that can be sharpened at the cost of consistency. Altogether, I can imagine 27 is humanly possible yet completely silly, like Frigate 00A 1:01.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Cal on February 17, 2021, 07:00:44 am
Quote from: OHMSS on February 17, 2021, 06:03:45 am
didn't use 2.x (is it compatible with R-leaning? idk).
Yeah, you can't R-lean with 2.x

As a bit of a side note, it's possible that this fact helped out with the recent gold rush on S2 00;
Ted was being a real mate and was streaming his TASsing to show others how to do it. He mentioned wanting to R-Lean a nade for the "first cam" right around when he was doing the fence shot.
I piped up in chat to remind him that he couldn't R-lean with 2.x   :v
So instead Ted did his backup strat, which is the ramp nade throw that Illu used in his 1:19, and that JD was using in his 1:18/1:17 attempts.
I doubt anyone would have played the ramp throw without the serendipity of Ted 'messing up' by starting his TAS in 2.x and needing to show off a backup strat (Ted, I'm looking forward to seeing the Cam 1 R-Lean in the 2032 release of your All 60 TAS  :nesquik:)

Of course the point is kinda moot at the moment because Clem used the no-nade strat on his 1:18
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: ragearainbow on February 17, 2021, 09:15:38 am
^^Interesting what else does 2.x limit?
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Whiteted on February 17, 2021, 10:29:22 am
Quote from: Cal on February 17, 2021, 07:00:44 am
Quote from: OHMSS on February 17, 2021, 06:03:45 am
didn't use 2.x (is it compatible with R-leaning? idk).
Yeah, you can't R-lean with 2.x

Huh news to me ;)

Quote
Ted mentioned wanting to R-Lean a nade for the "first cam" right around when he was doing the fence shot.
I piped up in chat to remind him that he couldn't R-lean with 2.x   :v

This was sesh #2 iirc and I'd just finished shooting cam #2 which was a bit tricky :rollin:

Quote
So instead Ted did his backup strat, which is the ramp nade throw that Illu used in his 1:19, and that JD was using in his 1:18/1:17 attempts.
I doubt anyone would have played the ramp throw without the serendipity of Ted 'messing up' by starting his TAS in 2.x and needing to show off a backup strat (Ted, I'm looking forward to seeing the Cam 1 R-Lean in the 2032 release of your All 60 TAS  :nesquik:)

Of course the point is kinda moot at the moment because Clem used the no-nade strat on his 1:18

Though I'm sure I passed it off as more, I think it was just an idea that I was 90% sure would work rather than being something I'd actually tried. I was planning to do the throw just before the sniper tower, the closest point to the 1st camera on that path. That's why in the TAS I went to the right of the main building, even though I found out I couldn't rlean before I had to choose my route. But after the 2nd stream I went away and finished the TAS offline. After the nade throws I found that you could do it very late on the steeper hill, allowing for a much better line to the ending.

Illu's funeral for the nade strat notwithstanding, he did get 116 missed nade throw, and 115 would be pretty insane with the nadeless strat. It's definitely not a dead strat but I can understand that nadeless is way more fun to play (with the 1 in 31 odds for a nade).

(+ a chance for Illu to shoot the nade accidentally  :rollin: )

Very unrelated now but those Illu streams were so good. He had like 30+ people lurking and then he'd go "NaaaaaaaaaDDEE" when he got one.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: RWG on February 17, 2021, 03:38:08 pm
Getting Dam SA 1:15 with the "double alarm from down the dam" strategy, sounds pretty insane tbh.

There really are a lot of contenders for this.

I'd consider a video, but tbh I don't want to do something like "What the LOWEST PERCENT channel GOT WRONG about GoldenEye!!!!!!! (EXPOSED!)"
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: DYM on February 17, 2021, 04:34:29 pm
Well, it's entirely possible their team was aware of more difficult tricks, but felt that this was the most suitable one the masses could digest in a 30s segment.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: RWG on February 17, 2021, 04:56:41 pm
That is entirely 100% correct; if I do end up making a video about the "hardest trick in GoldenEye" I would be sure to state that, unequivocally.

Saying the Depot Roller-Door Warp is the hardest trick in Goldeneye would be similar to saying "Stairway to Heaven" is the greatest rock song, or Citizen Kane is the greatest film.  Sure, these are expected answers that placate an average audience.  However, when one is trying to dig even more "niche", they might be looking for deeper answers.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: ragearainbow on February 18, 2021, 03:59:00 am
Quote from: Ace on February 17, 2021, 04:34:29 pm
Well, it's entirely possible their team was aware of more difficult tricks, but felt that this was the most suitable one the masses could digest in a 30s segment.

All they did was take other peoples videos and claim it as their own without any credit.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: mw on February 18, 2021, 09:12:39 pm
In my experience the hardest trick in Goldeneye is definitely getting into the tank on Runway/Streets.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Wouter Jansen on February 21, 2021, 07:39:46 am
Why is Runway 00/its' strat being used to judge a trick that's found multiple times within? obviously something gets increasingly harder when you have to do it multiple times in succession, but that is not the topic at hand. (same goes for some others such as dam alarms, the trick is used multiple times, but this topic is asking to judge the trick on its own, singularly) it's not a fair comparison if you require multiple executions to judge one trick but not the same amount of executions for another.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Leo_Perna on February 21, 2021, 08:47:03 am
Wouter is right, there's a difference between routes and tricks  :v
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Wyst3r on February 21, 2021, 10:55:38 am
Well the original post by Ace had a very lose definition of trick, which included multiples. If we narrow the definition than the answers will be very different of course.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Shadow on February 22, 2021, 04:49:55 pm
The very first thing I thought of when I saw the title was Runway 00A. Maybe it's technically multiple tricks (or the same trick multiple times), but getting everything to go right in a single run has to be insanely hard. It's a crazy-hard strat, for sure.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: RWG on February 23, 2021, 03:04:53 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1OJ23sPV3g


Randy's "Frigate 00A Nightmare Route Idea" is a good candidate.

Reverse pipe warp + open door through stairs while falling + save hostage (while being harassed by what would be two guards beside you at this point in time).

It's absolutely, technically doable on console.  But would be complete hell.  It's really almost up there with the "OoK strategy" (which I think would really be the best candidate, were I to make a video about this).

There are also some very complex Frigate bug throws, right?  Didn't WhiteTed or someone hit the first "R-Lean" bug throw from near the beginning, only recently?
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Whiteted on February 23, 2021, 03:08:24 pm
Quote from: RWG on February 23, 2021, 03:04:53 am
There are also some very complex Frigate bug throws, right?  Didn't Whiteted or someone hit the first "R-Lean" bug throw from near the beginning, only recently?

https://clips.twitch.tv/TriangularInterestingSowBudBlast (https://clips.twitch.tv/TriangularInterestingSowBudBlast)

Yes but I hit it a good number of times in that stream and never really had a set up for the angle. It is quite precise but like lots of these ideas I don't think you can really put your finger on how hard they are when basically noone has tried them. The lean is quite precise in terms of position that you can throw from and angle but if you paused for the bug by the ramp like in the 51 TAS and could consistently hit the full lean it might not be too bad.

I hit the bug lean and reverse pipe warp back to back 1st attempt when I was demoing them in a stream earlier in the year  :laugh: . It's much easier to warp the gap to the left of both pipes as I found when TASing SA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9dmzMC4zXY) early on. Warping this gap in the normal direction is practically almost impossible because reasons.

Lots of the TAS strats chain several tricky things i.e. on Frigate it's get a nade (1 in 10), prime it without getting shot, throw it fast and accurate, get good hostages, lean the bug. So if you want some hard atomic trick that people have tried I'd say it's probably crouch glass. B1 "glass strat" i.e. early running boris hasn't been tried probably because it's so hard but I dunno that it counts :)
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: BDown on March 03, 2021, 12:48:46 pm
Quote from: RWG on February 17, 2021, 03:38:08 pm
There really are a lot of contenders for this.

I'd consider a video, but tbh I don't want to do something like "What the LOWEST PERCENT channel GOT WRONG about GoldenEye!!!!!!! (EXPOSED!)"

I wouldn't want to throw too much shade their way, I'm just happy to see Goldeneye getting some recognition in the broader speedrunning community. Especially considering how damn hard it is to run, even if you don't consider the Depot Warp to be the hardest trick I think GE certainly has plenty of tricks that could be considered contenders, so I think the game is a worthy inclusion.

It's also pretty evident that, given this thread, there is no general consensus on what is the "hardest trick" in Goldeneye.


Just my two cents, but I'm surprised nobody has brought up any of the other known tricks on Depot, the rocket shot, the agent warp performed on SA or 00 agent, and the second roller door warp (could be done on SA/00 or on Agent for a double warp).
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Jack Newman on March 03, 2021, 01:20:14 pm
Opinions from a spectator:

There are a lot of potential definitions of "hardest trick".  Going by the letter of the law, something like OOK might be the hardest, given the astronomical odds of pulling it off on a run.  However, that feels like it isn't answering the question that's being asked.  I think the definition of "hardest trick", at least according to the popular viewer (the Goose viewer  :nesquik: ), would be "the hardest trick to execute that is currently used in a World Record speedrun".

I'm not against consideration of theoretical strats (or stuff like Aztec crouch glass, which nobody's achieved a WR with yet), but I think that would be the best question to ask when considering a YouTube audience.


I've never played GE, so I can't offer any input on the actual "hardest trick", but I think there is a major problem with context.  For example, hitting an R-lean on Surface 2 isn't necessarily that hard once you learn how (although some may beg to differ  :v ), but getting one on SA after waiting 20 minutes for a grenade and dealing with the nerves is another animal.  Does that make an R-lean "harder"?  Yes and no.  Yes, because the lower number of attempts means lower likelihood of success over the grind; but no, because hitting the lean isn't necessarily "more difficult".  The context of the run makes it more infrequent, but the trick itself hasn't fundamentally changed.

Anyway, just my ramblings.  Maybe someday in 20XX there will be a consensus about all of this  :grin:
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Seanjohn on March 03, 2021, 03:42:03 pm
Retiring
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: SGT RAGEQUIT on March 03, 2021, 04:41:56 pm
Quote from: seanjohn on March 03, 2021, 03:42:03 pm
Retiring

was just about to post "knowing when to stop"
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Watertemplefiend on March 12, 2021, 10:55:38 am
Quote from: SGT RAGEQUIT on March 03, 2021, 04:41:56 pm
Quote from: seanjohn on March 03, 2021, 03:42:03 pm
Retiring

was just about to post "knowing when to stop"

just one more run
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: illegalsmileIV:XX on March 12, 2021, 11:30:49 am
For me... The "Speed" part poses the most problems. And, honestly, the "Running" bit, is no cake walk, either...  :ohwell:
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: ddm6 on March 13, 2021, 05:11:11 pm
I don't know, but I know for sure it isn't the depot warp.  I could fluke the depot warp and I suck hard.  Well, a monkey could fluke a trick eventually, but I think the hardest thing to fluke might be the series of r-lean throws in runway.  That's what came to mind upon reading the title.

But then I read the first reply.  He didn't mention runway 00, but he did mention a whole bunch of things I've never even heard of.  Which makes me believe that I'm wrong.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: IIsYnII on March 17, 2021, 07:02:44 am
How hard is the double mine boost in the vents on fac a?
Feels like A LOT of buttons in very short order.
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Yendis on March 17, 2021, 09:13:08 am
It's not that bad tbh
Title: Re: ** What is the hardest trick in GoldenEye speedrunning? **
Post by: Joris on March 17, 2021, 02:39:34 pm
not that hard, but having a good B press at the first door when you do the vent boost can get a bit hard