The Elite Forum
The Big Three Plus One => GoldenEye 007 => Topic started by: ddm6 on May 04, 2021, 04:54:01 am
-
I sometimes click "Past Records" to compare my times with, and I go as far back as I can - which used to be 7/26/1998.
Now I can go all the way back to 5/14/1998. A guy named "Glen McDiarmid" has all the records, and they're so bad that they were certainly never the WR but just happened to be the only times posted.
What happened? Should I still consider 7/26/98 to be the first real day of the elite?
-
What happened?
Falangen dug up some ancient page and Joris added the data from it to the rankings, see here (https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=22518.msg471958#msg471958).
-
they're so bad that they were certainly never the WR but just happened to be the only times posted
Certainly not guaranteed to be the fastest times ever at that point, but credit where it's due:
- Probably 1.1 no-CC
- Probably no example runs to watch, tutorials, collaborative effort, etc. Entirely self-made strats.
- Based on the games release date, we're talking probably only talking about even owning the cart 6 to 8 months.
- Was speedrunning even a thing in the world?
All that said, um, yeah you should still be able to finish S1 SA in less than 2:51. But Fac 00 1:18 is pretty insane considering how notorious that 2:05 cheat target time was. A comfortable 47 second margin would have sounded impossible to me. Actually, I decided to take a look at the video now and I'm surprised how much it looks like a modern route, especially the shooting to lure open doors. Sure it's simple, but I wouldn't have figured all that shit out on my own. I was using keycards and pressing that console to open the doors.[/list]
-
What happened?
Falangen dug up some ancient page and Joris added the data from it to the rankings, see here (https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=22518.msg471958#msg471958).
I ofc read all the new topics b/c I didn't want to look like an idiot, posting this while the answers were right in my face. I saw that topic and read the OP to make sure it wasn't the answer to my questions. Based on the OP, it didn't seem like it. I guess I should have read the entire topic, thanks.
they're so bad that they were certainly never the WR but just happened to be the only times posted
Certainly not guaranteed to be the fastest times ever at that point, but credit where it's due:
- Probably 1.1 no-CC
- Probably no example runs to watch, tutorials, collaborative effort, etc. Entirely self-made strats.
- Based on the games release date, we're talking probably only talking about even owning the cart 6 to 8 months.
- Was speedrunning even a thing in the world?
All that said, um, yeah you should still be able to finish S1 SA in less than 2:51. But Fac 00 1:18 is pretty insane considering how notorious that 2:05 cheat target time was. A comfortable 47 second margin would have sounded impossible to me. Actually, I decided to take a look at the video now and I'm surprised how much it looks like a modern route, especially the shooting to lure open doors. Sure it's simple, but I wouldn't have figured all that shit out on my own. I was using keycards and pressing that console to open the doors.[/list]
I don't warp doors or self boost on facility yet and I do believe I figured out how to get through that door (accidentally) by shooting at the guards leading up to it, it came very naturally. I don't believe I ever used the console to open that door. I remember not bothering to check for doak outside of the lab area either. 1:18 is good if he's using 1.1 for sure, especially the less optimally he's doing the bottling room, but I suck and get failed 1:11's easy (and I think 1.1 costs ~5 sec per minute).
Also the game kind of lends itself to speedrunning. "Best time" right there every time you finish a run. Target times to chase. I had a few friends who had the game and we all liked chasing times (just for the cheats to most ppl, sure, but the more competitive types naturally won't stop there). 6 months is more than enough time to beat all those times. Kids can play 6+ hours a day easily. I still strongly doubt a single one of those times was actually wr and believe that most ppl who seriously grinded the game beat at least half of them.
-
I still strongly doubt a single one of those times was actually wr and believe that most ppl who seriously grinded the game beat at least half of them.
Unfortunately we can't rank the times Billy down the road got in 1998 because they aren't listed anywhere, much less with any form of proof.
Do you really think somebody in 1998 would go through the trouble of having footage recorded, digitized and uploaded if the runs weren't top level for the time that they were performed?
You being able to pace fac 1:11's with 2021 tech means absolutely nothing. These dinos were going off of gameFAQs posts for strats at best. Is this a bait post?
-
6 months is more than enough time to beat all those times. Kids can play 6+ hours a day easily. I still strongly doubt a single one of those times was actually wr and believe that most ppl who seriously grinded the game beat at least half of them.
Here's a Fac 00 run by "one of Nintendo's top game testers" from around the same time (between March and June 98)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51v38BJgtwE
(https://web.archive.org/web/19980610045213/http://www.nintendo.com/goldeneye007/facility_cheat.html)
Literally a pro gamer whose job was to blow the minds of people watching this run and he gets 1:25. Significantly slower than Glen
I suck and get failed 1:11's easy
I see you also got Runway 23 which was thought to be impossible until it was achieved in Dec 2000. Some didn't even believe it until they saw a video back then :LOL: Things change
Some of those times might have been beaten by someone who wasn't ranked, but that might still be the case even today. We can't rank people who never posted any times
EDIT: noticed that 23 was achieved in Dec 2000, not 2001
-
This is the best birthday gift I could ask for. I'll be having a drink to the legend next friday. :nesquik:
-
you look like an idiot
-
I still strongly doubt a single one of those times was actually wr and believe that most ppl who seriously grinded the game beat at least half of them.
Unfortunately we can't rank the times Billy down the road got in 1998 because they aren't listed anywhere, much less with any form of proof.
Do you really think somebody in 1998 would go through the trouble of having footage recorded, digitized and uploaded if the runs weren't top level for the time that they were performed?
You being able to pace fac 1:11's with 2021 tech means absolutely nothing. These dinos were going off of gameFAQs posts for strats at best. Is this a bait post?
I'm nowhere near good enough to utilize 2021 tech on a level like fac 00. I can barely squeeze out it's usefulness for a :54 Dam, and only after over a week of grinding. I basically play fac 00 as I did back then, only now I play with 1.2.
1. I suck.
2. 2021 strats might help me save a max of 10 seconds (lol, no, I'm not good enough), mostly in bottling room.
3. I put no time at all into fac 00.
4. Even I pace 1:11.
2021 tech might save 2 seconds with look down, maximum. Another 2 seconds max saved with self-boosts. Another 4 seconds of door warps max. Throw 5 seconds away in the bottling room, just for fun. So take Coelho's :51, make it suck back to 1998 standards, and it's a 1:04 now. 1:18 was never "wr good" if he's using 1.2. And you know that I overestimated how much time all those strats save. Assuming he's using 1.1, costing himself another (~6 seconds?), 1:18 still leaves 8 seconds room for error, and that's not counting the 5 seconds of error in the bottling room.
I'm curious, how much time do you think the 2021 strats save? You think there's 27 seconds there? Even if it saved as much as 20 seconds, that still leaves 7 seconds room for error. BTW, it makes the game much easier when you're not using good strats - it might be harder to survive, but when you do survive, it's hard to screw up. Early wr's are overrated af, they were only ever "officially wr's" due to no competition, and they were almost certainly never the actual wrs. Some OCD hermits had all the wrs back then and we'll never know about them.
I can actually almost prove all this: look at July 26th, 1998. Those are some good times for the time period. You actually believe the game changed so much in the 2 months since McDiarmid got his times? Neblett had that 1:18 beaten by 10 seconds and it's not b/c of new tech. It's b/c he may have actually been a world class player.
You imply that McDiarmid blew minds, what must you call beating that by 10 seconds?
But even Neblett was extremely unlikely to have actually had the real wr. The elite was one small group of ppl out of millions who bought GE. 8 million ppl had GE. Imagine the top 1% of those - that's 80,000 ppl. The top 1% of the top 1%? That's 800 ppl. It's useless to go further b/c the skill gap between the top .01% and the top .0001% isn't going to add up to a full second on most levels (the skill ceiling probably isn't even high enough on most levels to look this far, but here we are). So, how many of those 800 ppl were in the elite? A very small fraction, negligible even. Meaning that the real wr was highly unlikely to be posted here, it's almost statistically guaranteed to have not been. I'd be willing to bet at least 400 ppl had the fac 00 1:18 beaten or were more than capable but simply hadn't yet gotten around to that particular level.
What % of GE owners do you think even heard of the elite? We can probably know! Maybe someone has the site's traffic data from back then?
-
Son just stop, you're about to rival sterling for most wildin forum poster
-
waht teh fuk
-
Pretty pointless to argue tbh. The reason the Elite makes for such an interesting community is largely due to our long history of record keeping as well as our relatively high proof standards. Not many speedrunning communities in the early 2000s had videos, even though it wasn't the norm or required for proof at the time. By the time our proof standards evolved to be more stringent and require decent quality video, we were ahead of many other speedgames where cheating and poor proof were more common. In the early days of the internet pre Youtube video was very much a rarity.
If you're going to make the claim the times weren't WR at the time, show us proof indicating this was the case. Otherwise it's just pure conjecture. At least the contributing historians are coming with some kind of evidence to base things off of. As for the abilities of players in 2021 to pace times, they have absolutely nothing to do with times from 1998 when the most basic techniques were in their infancy. Perhaps the ancient Greeks could outpace our modern 100m sprinters, but since stopwatches and film didn't exist at the time it's ludicrous to go against all the evidence to the contrary.
-
Yes, the very first person to play each level of Goldeneye the day the game came out technically had the record, but that's extremely irrelevant to how rankings systems work. If we don't know it happened, it didn't happen.
-
Here's a Fac 00 run by "one of Nintendo's top game testers" from around the same time (between March and June 98)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51v38BJgtwE
(https://web.archive.org/web/19980610045213/http://www.nintendo.com/goldeneye007/facility_cheat.html)
Using a remote mine to clear the first room is an interesting safe strat from back in the day. Would love to see Keith pull it off, but we are talking about a 3 megabyte file here. I'll just have to leave my PC on all night. At least maybe if my internet doesn't cut out during the night, I can score 3 songs off Napster at the same time.
I think my timeline can provide some example of what simple exposure to others' runs can do. Unfortunately unrecorded, but I did post the recent times:
- 1997 - first played the game
- sometime in the late 90s - unlocked the Invincibility cheat, but just barely, didn't break 2 minutes
- March 24th, 2020 - 1:55 on Fac 00 with 1.1 no-CC control style, was trying my best to beat all my childhood times. Was pretty proud of this 1:55 actually.
- April 10th , 2020 - start playing the game in 1.2. Around this time probably watch Ace's/Wodahs's world records. Just like once each.
- April 19th, 2020 - 1:35
- May 1st, 2020 - 1:26
- May 26th, 2020 - 1:14
And it's not like I was grinding the level, each of these days was probably the only day in that time period I even played it. On my own I could have been shaving down that 1:55 second by second. And the game wasn't new to me, I'd had it almost 23 years.
Or I could switch to 1.2, watch a couple videos, and bang, 41 seconds cut in three short sessions. This option didn't used to exist.
Was 1:18 the fastest anyone had ever played the level as of May, 1998? Probably not, probably not. I guess only God knows now. But it's still impressive. At the time, it would have been mind-blowing.
-
[lots of stuff]
Look, dude, let me give you some advice. I was in a position similar to yours a few years ago. I joined a message board (not this one) thinking I knew everything. I promptly made a fool out of myself because I was a stupid idiot. Nowadays, I take great care to watch and listen to what other people are saying and doing before shooting my own mouth off. In fact, I lurked on these here boards for almost a year without making an account. In that time, I learned an incredible amount about two games I've never even played. Because there are people far more knowledgeable than me, I take pains to make sure what I post isn't dumb and stupid. There are few things I hate more than looking like a moron in public, and I don't want you to look like one either.
My piece of advice is this: When the experts are trying to tell you that you are wrong, maybe you should consider them BECAUSE THEY ARE THE EXPERTS. Just for example, Shiva is in the GE top 100. He's been in the community for a couple of years or so. No offense to you, dude, but you have no points and have only been running the game (based on your PR history) for half a year.
I don't mean for any this to sound callous. I hate being the guy who has to tell people things they don't want to hear. But, as of this moment, the community does not respect you. You are trying to tell people who have invested themselves in this community for years that they are wrong about how their own site works. Maybe it's time to step back, take a breath, and let the experts do what they do.
I'll just end this by quoting Ose:
you look like an idiot
'Nuff said.
-
(https://i.imgur.com/qKlcmcv.png)
-
Never meant to start anything here, but this has my mind racing on another subject (based on my experience as a swim coach) which some of you might find interesting. I won't bother to explain the analogy, but it should be apparent.
In 1922, Johnny Weissmuller became the first human in the world to swim 100 meters in under 1 minute, with a time of 58.6 seconds. By 1924, he had improved the record to 57.4. Being the first to break a minute in anything is obviously pretty significant, and Weissmuller, who died in 1984, is still celebrated in the swimming world to this day. Apparently, Weissmuller was so dominant that he was UNDEFEATED IN HIS ENTIRE SWIMMING CAREER. He would go on to play Tarzan in 6 feature films.
[Side note: before Weissmuller, the world record holder was Native Hawaiian swimmer Duke Kahanamoku. Despite being significantly slower than the times Weissmuller would later swim, many of Kahanamoku's world records were initially disqualified based simply on the argument that they were NOT HUMANLY POSSIBLE.]
Today, the U.S. National Age Group Record for 12&under girls is 56.87. Not the world record, not the men's record, not even the record for 12-year-old boys. The record for American 12-year-old girls. As the head coach of a swim team that's honestly nothing special, I've never coached a little girl who could beat Weismuller's record... but not a year goes by when I don't have multiple high school boys who could beat the record of the undefeated greatest swimmer of his time on any given weekend. It's not easy to reach that point, but for a boy with some size and talent and work ethic, it's eventually a given. Long before graduating high school. I never swam that fast, but my brother could in high school and we're both around 5'7" tall. This season I had a 16-year-old kid on my team who beat that time in his first race back after being absent from training for a month due to having COVID. (And this is a cardiovascular sport.) He came in 19th place against other high schoolers at that meet, it was epic. (No seriously, it was epic.)
How is it that young girls can beat the 6'3" all-time great who was such a man among men that Hollywood just had to make him Tarzan? Well, Johnny Weissmuller swam all his freestyle races WITH HIS FUCKING HEAD AND SHOULDERS ENTIRELY OUT OF THE WATER. Do I advise swimmers not to do this? Actually, in 20 years of coaching thousands of swimmers, I've never had to. Anyone who makes such a dumb mistake during tryouts would be immediately cut from the team and sent back to beginner swim lessons, because it doesn't take a fucking master swim coach to tell you not to swim with your fucking head out of the water. They teach that shit in beginner swim lessons, and if you don't know it, you don't belong on a competitive swim team.
Yet there was a time in human history when the greatest swimmer ever was swimming that way, and literally no one could beat him, AND NO ONE KNEW IT WASN'T OPTIMAL. Direct quote from Johnny Weismuller: "My technique has been called the 'perfected' crawl stroke... Some say there is still room for improvement in this stroke. I do not see just where the improvement will come."
Also, Johnny Weismuller is a fucking legend and deserves every bit of praise he ever got.
-
Never meant to start anything here, but this has my mind racing on another subject (based on my experience as a swim coach) which some of you might find interesting. I won't bother to explain the analogy, but it should be apparent.
In 1922, Johnny Weissmuller became the first human in the world to swim 100 meters in under 1 minute, with a time of 58.6 seconds. By 1924, he had improved the record to 57.4. Being the first to break a minute in anything is obviously pretty significant, and Weissmuller, who died in 1984, is still celebrated in the swimming world to this day. Apparently, Weissmuller was so dominant that he was UNDEFEATED IN HIS ENTIRE SWIMMING CAREER. He would go on to play Tarzan in 6 feature films.
[Side note: before Weissmuller, the world record holder was Native Hawaiian swimmer Duke Kahanamoku. Despite being significantly slower than the times Weissmuller would later swim, many of Kahanamoku's world records were initially disqualified based simply on the argument that they were NOT HUMANLY POSSIBLE.]
Today, the U.S. National Age Group Record for 12&under girls is 56.87. Not the world record, not the men's record, not even the record for 12-year-old boys. The record for American 12-year-old girls. As the head coach of a swim team that's honestly nothing special, I've never coached a little girl who could beat Weismuller's record... but not a year goes by when I don't have multiple high school boys who could beat the record of the undefeated greatest swimmer of his time on any given weekend. It's not easy to reach that point, but for a boy with some size and talent and work ethic, it's eventually a given. Long before graduating high school. I never swam that fast, but my brother could in high school and we're both around 5'7" tall. This season I had a 16-year-old kid on my team who beat that time in his first race back after being absent from training for a month due to having COVID. (And this is a cardiovascular sport.) He came in 19th place against other high schoolers at that meet, it was epic. (No seriously, it was epic.)
How is it that young girls can beat the 6'3" all-time great who was such a man among men that Hollywood just had to make him Tarzan? Well, Johnny Weissmuller swam all his freestyle races WITH HIS FUCKING HEAD AND SHOULDERS ENTIRELY OUT OF THE WATER. Do I advise swimmers not to do this? Actually, in 20 years of coaching thousands of swimmers, I've never had to. Anyone who makes such a dumb mistake during tryouts would be immediately cut from the team and sent back to beginner swim lessons, because it doesn't take a fucking master swim coach to tell you not to swim with your fucking head out of the water. They teach that shit in beginner swim lessons, and if you don't know it, you don't belong on a competitive swim team.
Yet there was a time in human history when the greatest swimmer ever was swimming that way, and literally no one could beat him, AND NO ONE KNEW IT WASN'T OPTIMAL. Direct quote from Johnny Weismuller: "My technique has been called the 'perfected' crawl stroke... Some say there is still room for improvement in this stroke. I do not see just where the improvement will come."
Also, Johnny Weismuller is a fucking legend and deserves every bit of praise he ever got.
GE isn't that complex and we know exactly how much time each strat saves. Today's strats don't save anywhere near 50% of the time it takes to complete fac 00, yet the 1:18 is over 50% longer than today's :51.
It's a fact that when McDiarmid had the wrs, he was literally the only person with times posted. It's a fact that when others joined on 7/28/98, every single one of McDiarmid's times were completely obliterated.
When you talk about the-elite, you're actually talking about modern the-elite. You're not talking about the-elite of 1998, a place nobody had ever heard of, including us. It is a fact that there were 800 ppl in the top 0.01% GE players. That's a lot of ppl, none of them had likely heard of the-elite, and McDiarmid was probably not among them. A casual one night grind with no fancy strats, just 1.2 style, beats any of his records easily, by a lot. If only 0.5% of players had pressed start, pressed right, and then changed the control style, that would be 40,000 ppl who used 1.2 control style. This isn't something that some guy on the-elite first discovered, it was used by at least thousands of players. Do you really think an easily accessible option in a videogame was utilized by less than 0.5% of the players? Have you ever seen the % of ppl who acquired the rarest trophies in any ps4 game? It's higher than 0.5% and requires a lot more dedication than changing an option. It is simply in the nature of more than 1/200 ppl to tinker with any option given, it's not some rare personality trait. If it WAS anywhere near that rare, developers wouldn't even bother with options.
(https://i.imgur.com/qKlcmcv.png)
Ugh, I hate being reminded of that moron's existence.... "WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL IF THE OCEAN ENDS UP COVERING HALF OF CALI? THOSE PPL CAN JUST SELL THEIR HOUSES AND MOVE." Unbelievable that any network would give him a voice. Thanks for tilting me, Bunker 1 is going to be even more fun tonight....
[lots of stuff]
Look, dude, let me give you some advice. I was in a position similar to yours a few years ago. I joined a message board (not this one) thinking I knew everything. I promptly made a fool out of myself because I was a stupid idiot. Nowadays, I take great care to watch and listen to what other people are saying and doing before shooting my own mouth off. In fact, I lurked on these here boards for almost a year without making an account. In that time, I learned an incredible amount about two games I've never even played. Because there are people far more knowledgeable than me, I take pains to make sure what I post isn't dumb and stupid. There are few things I hate more than looking like a moron in public, and I don't want you to look like one either.
My piece of advice is this: When the experts are trying to tell you that you are wrong, maybe you should consider them BECAUSE THEY ARE THE EXPERTS. Just for example, Shiva is in the GE top 100. He's been in the community for a couple of years or so. No offense to you, dude, but you have no points and have only been running the game (based on your PR history) for half a year.
I don't mean for any this to sound callous. I hate being the guy who has to tell people things they don't want to hear. But, as of this moment, the community does not respect you. You are trying to tell people who have invested themselves in this community for years that they are wrong about how their own site works. Maybe it's time to step back, take a breath, and let the experts do what they do.
I'll just end this by quoting Ose:
you look like an idiot
'Nuff said.
I'll go with correct, easy math and logic over the word of an individual. 8 million ppl had GE. If you think McDiarmid's times were ever the best, then you don't know what 8 million is, but I'll try to put it in perspective. 8 million means that 80,000 ppl were in the top 1% of players. That is a s--- load of really amazing players. Take them and then look at the top 1% among them. That's 800 players who make the previously mentioned 80,000 amazing players look bad on average. Now take the top 1% of THOSE players - that's 8 players who play pretty much perfectly. How good are they? Those ppl are statistically, provably ONE IN A MILLION GOOD - almost Ace good (not that they put in enough work to get near Ace's times, obv). You don't know anybody who's that good at anything. Those ppl are all leagues beyond McDiarmid.
To argue that McDiarmid actually had the real wrs, you're literally forced to argue that either:
A) The top 0.0001% of players aren't necessarily good enough to get a 3:09 Bunker 1 00, a 2:11 Silo A, a 1:33 Egypt 00, a 1:52 Jungle A, a 2:51 Surface 1 SA, or any of McDiarmid's other atrocious "wr" times - due to using old strats that cost a max of 10 sec per minute!!!!!! Good luck with option A - it's beyond ridiculous.
or B) Less than 0.2% of the top 0.01% of players are going to grind facility (given the fact that they are by definition in the top 0.01%, it's arguable that they inherently run facility to even qualify as top 0.01% players, so GL with trying option B)
The only ppl who would bother arguing are either trolling or don't understand math/logic/statistics. The level of truth of any fact isn't correlated with how much someone sucks at GE - meaning that my PRs are irrelevant. I know a lot of ppl see numbers and they just gloss right over them; my wife is one of those ppl, but if that's you then don't bother here. Oh, and it might surprise you that the fact that I look like an idiot to someone who posts 1 sentence, 5 word posts with an average of ~4 letters per word doesn't bother me in the slightest.
-
My real question is, why do you give so much of a shit? go outside man
-
My real question is, why do you give so much of a shit? go outside man
Or better, I should spend as much time playing as I do looking over the data on this site, maybe I'd have my Bunker 1 A :18 by now.
-
You're either delusional or you're losing the plot. Either way, Glen had the WR at that point, and was the first one to be documented to the elite standards, and to be listed on the site, or at the very least considered to be elite worthy. You can spend years trying to figure out the odds of people being good enough, people being generate enough to play 1.2 or whatever. What if the people submitting ridiculous times to games magazines were factual and they were god gamers so far and above everyone else at the time and even everyone to this day? Your math might be sound but you need to get off the arbitrary "0.05% would be this much!! and and and and and this is one in a million" as it doesn't sound coherent at all. If someone eats 5 eggs coated in peanut butter, wasabi, and rare truffles in 15 minutes, that's still a WR because no one else has done it at this point. That's just the way it is. Your logic follows that even today we don't know if joe blow from bumfuck new jersey has been hiding in a cave for 20 years playing silo agent and currently has a 0:56! It could happen! One in a million! My advice is to just take a healthy break from the forums, go get your times, and come back with a fresh perspective. This isn't a good look for you.
-
Brose's analogy was spot on! Ancient records are always seen as laughable in modern times.
It takes a community of people to get better and it takes time.
And it's not only "strategy development", but people seem to have an easier time achieving great things when others have already done so.
It's a fact that when McDiarmid had the wrs, he was literally the only person with times posted. It's a fact that when others joined on 7/28/98, every single one of McDiarmid's times were completely obliterated.
That's not true. You should take a closer look at the rankings https://web.archive.org/web/19980514222113/http://www.asgard.net.au/~glenm/goldeneye/index.html
Some OCD hermits had all the wrs back then and we'll never know about them.
Alot more people have heard of the elite today, but still none of these "top 0.01% OCD hermits" have come forward and posted times. Have ALL of these top players disappeared?
The statistics you're using are kinda flawed too.
If we were to use your logic, the records from July 98, which you seem to think are more legit, are absolute dogshit. 8 million people playing for 1 year and those are the WRs?
Even to this day, only 1300 people have ever submitted times. What are the chances that 1300 people have better times than 7,999,000 others? :thinking:
The bottom line is that we can only rank people who have posted times, like i said before. We can't rank this "OCD Hermit" and give him all WRs based on some arbitrary statistics.
GL on the B1 18 grind though! ;)
-
I won't sit here and try to dissect your theory any longer, as nothing I say will convince you of anything at this point. I will only say that literally every other person who has posted in this thread disagrees with you. You're trying to fight a one-man war, and losing. Badly.
I'll only say two things:
(https://i.imgur.com/qKlcmcv.png)
Ugh, I hate being reminded of that moron's existence.... "WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL IF THE OCEAN ENDS UP COVERING HALF OF CALI? THOSE PPL CAN JUST SELL THEIR HOUSES AND MOVE." Unbelievable that any network would give him a voice. Thanks for tilting me, Bunker 1 is going to be even more fun tonight....
Why? Why on earth is this even relevant? Shiva was just trying to make a joke. The last thing anyone wants to hear after what you've already posted is your political opinions.
The only ppl who would bother arguing are either trolling or don't understand math/logic/statistics. The level of truth of any fact isn't correlated with how much someone sucks at GE - meaning that my PRs are irrelevant. I know a lot of ppl see numbers and they just gloss right over them; my wife is one of those ppl, but if that's you then don't bother here. Oh, and it might surprise you that the fact that I look like an idiot to someone who posts 1 sentence, 5 word posts with an average of ~4 letters per word doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Well, then I hope you don't mind being a complete joke to the entire community. I'm serious, if you continue down this path, you will be ridiculed, mocked, and memed at every turn. The community will not take you seriously ever again. You may legitimately be banned from the forum, not for disorderly conduct but for your own health and well-being.
Keep in mind that I am trying to help you. In fact, I don't even want you to respond to this post. At this rate, nothing you say will help, so it would be better to say nothing at all. You're free to disregard everything I say, but don't say I didn't warn you.
Please, take a break from these forums.
Sincerely,
Jack Newman
-
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conjecture
-
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conjecture
The statement that GM never had the wr isn't deduced with incomplete information. It logically follows given only 2 facts, it's not complicated:
1. 80,000 ppl were by definition in the top 1% of GE players.
2. A top 1% GE player can beat a 3:09 bunker 1 00 on his 2nd completion, if not the 1st. (the same is true for most of those other times as well)
It's simple logic and math - not conjecture, not guesswork. 3:09 was never the bunker 1 00 wr. 2:51 was never the Surface 1 SA wr. 2:11 was never the Silo A wr. 1:33 was never the Egypt 00 wr. 1:52 was never the Jungle A wr. These are PRs on a single random cartridge and at one point in time they happened to be the only times posted, simply b/c someone almost had to be the first person to ever post times online.
Asking to prove that a 3:09 wasn't the bunker 1 00 wr is like asking to prove that Super Mario 64 was beaten within a week of its release. It doesn't need to be proven, it's statistically guaranteed.
I ALSO HAVE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE - I DO NOT USE GOOD STRATS FOR BUNKER 1 00 - I KILL ALMOST EVERYONE. I HAVE A 2:14 PR. I PUT 0 TIME INTO THE LEVEL. EVERY TIME IT'S NEXT UP ON MY HITLIST, I PLAY THE LEVEL UNTIL I DON'T DIE. EVERY TIME I COMPLETE, I IMPROVE MY PR. IT HAPPENS IN NO TIME. 3:09 IS COMPLETE GARBAGE. EVEN MY 2:14 IS COMPLETE GARBAGE AND WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN WR. SOMETIMES, WHILE GOING FOR BUNKER 1 A :18 AND THE GUARDS END UP IN MY WAY IN A GOOD RUN, I RAGE LIKE A TODDLER IN A TEMPER TANTRUM AND KILL EVERYONE, INCLUDING THE BLACK GUARDS LIKE 4 TIMES EACH - AFTER EVERYONE IS DEAD, THE CONSOLES ARE DESTROYED, AND THE CAMERAS AND BOXES ARE BLOWN UP, I EXIT THE LEVEL NORMALLY AND SEE TIMES MUCH LOWER THAN 3:09. TRUE STORY.
-
So what, we gotta start somewhere. And it logically follows that we pick the oldest recorded time as our starting point even though it's possible it might not have been the best time in the world at the time. It would be nonsense to disqualify those times.
Now please
go outside man
-
The first times to get posted were the world records. If someone disputed them at the time and posted something better, those were the new records. This is how rankings systems work. They don’t work based on “well someone probably had a better time [because of all this conjecture I’m posting about how the game is in 2021]”. Honestly man, shut the fuck up
-
This kid makes me miss xdax
-
The first times to get posted were the world records. If someone disputed them at the time and posted something better, those were the new records. This is how rankings systems work. They don’t work based on “well someone probably had a better time [because of all this conjecture I’m posting about how the game is in 2021]”. Honestly man, shut the fuck up
My statements weren't based on incomplete information and therefore weren't conjecture. I haven't argued that GM should be removed. I've only strongly implied that proven reality and reality are sometimes vastly different things.
7/23/98 - the wrs are all GM's. The very next day, 7/24/98 - all of his times are crushed, some of them by a handful of ppl. That obviously didn't happen in 1 day, that's just when the times were proven. All I'm saying is that clearly there is a distinction between the fact that GM TECHNICALLY had the records, and the fact that those times were highly unlikely to be the best times on any of the 8 million sold copies of GE. I'm not the only person in here who disbelieves that his posted times were actually the best times. In fact, if you were to have ppl bet on what they thought the best times on any cart were on 7/23/98, not even anyone in this thread would bet on GM's times being the best. No one's arguing that his times were the best, not even you. You're just saying that only proven times can count on this site, and I'm not arguing with that. It means nothing to you that his times weren't the best, okay. But it means something to me - enough to ignore GM's times.
I won't sit here and try to dissect your theory any longer, as nothing I say will convince you of anything at this point. I will only say that literally every other person who has posted in this thread disagrees with you. You're trying to fight a one-man war, and losing. Badly.
I'll only say two things:
(https://i.imgur.com/qKlcmcv.png)
Ugh, I hate being reminded of that moron's existence.... "WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL IF THE OCEAN ENDS UP COVERING HALF OF CALI? THOSE PPL CAN JUST SELL THEIR HOUSES AND MOVE." Unbelievable that any network would give him a voice. Thanks for tilting me, Bunker 1 is going to be even more fun tonight....
Why? Why on earth is this even relevant? Shiva was just trying to make a joke. The last thing anyone wants to hear after what you've already posted is your political opinions.
The only ppl who would bother arguing are either trolling or don't understand math/logic/statistics. The level of truth of any fact isn't correlated with how much someone sucks at GE - meaning that my PRs are irrelevant. I know a lot of ppl see numbers and they just gloss right over them; my wife is one of those ppl, but if that's you then don't bother here. Oh, and it might surprise you that the fact that I look like an idiot to someone who posts 1 sentence, 5 word posts with an average of ~4 letters per word doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Well, then I hope you don't mind being a complete joke to the entire community. I'm serious, if you continue down this path, you will be ridiculed, mocked, and memed at every turn. The community will not take you seriously ever again. You may legitimately be banned from the forum, not for disorderly conduct but for your own health and well-being.
Keep in mind that I am trying to help you. In fact, I don't even want you to respond to this post. At this rate, nothing you say will help, so it would be better to say nothing at all. You're free to disregard everything I say, but don't say I didn't warn you.
Please, take a break from these forums.
Sincerely,
Jack Newman
You perceive arguments where they don't even exist. No one is saying that it's untrue that 3:09 was likely not the WR on bunker 1 00, as I've stated. Others are simply stating facts of their own:
1. We only post proven times.
2. GM was the first person to post proven times.
Therefore, he technically had the WR, end of story.
I'm not arguing with that. I'm not arguing that GM should be removed. I'm simply saying that technicalities aren't all that matter to me. Most of what everyone else is saying is true. However, that doesn't change the fact that a top 1% GE player can't easily beat many of GM's times with 1.1 while drunk . Or the fact that there were necessarily at least 80,000 players in the top 1% of GE players, which leads to the obvious conclusion that 3:09 almost certainly wasn't the real wr as defined by the best time on anyone's cart. (In fact, b/c >1 person plays each cart of GE on average, the number is likely even higher than 80k, but can't be lower). Both what I'm saying and what they're saying is true. There's very little argument going on here.
Given how easily those times are beaten, it's disingenuous to ask for proof that those weren't the real wr's. It's as certain that those weren't the real wr's as it's certain that SM64 was beaten within a week of its release. You don't ask for proof of such a thing. The only difference between me and others is that I care more about what reality actually is in regards to this, and they care more about what is proven to be reality in regards to this. It's only understandable, as these ppl are part of a community whose goal is to track proven wr's!
I haven't been convinced not to disregard the pre-7/26/98 data as the PRs on 1 random cart - WRs among 1 person. Some statements in this thread prove that I'm not the only one (someone said the Surface 1 SA was probably not really wr).
As for being meme'd or whatever... dude, no one's harder on me than I am. Look at my last post: I ADMITTED TO RAGING, QUOTE, "LIKE A TODDLER IN A TEMPER TANTRUM" AND KILLING EVERYONE AND DESTROYING EVERYTHING IN BUNKER 1. You think I care about E-rep? I don't have any reason to hide anything. No shame, no pride, no honor, nothing. I really don't care. I'm pretty nihilistic.
Controversial statements don't need to be met with rude opposition. However....
(((WARNING: "POLITICAL" CRAP: it isn't a political opinion that shapiro is a moron. Intelligence is relative and he is, relatively, an absolute moron. Anyone who sides with those responsible for the watergate scandal, iran/contra scandal, WMD scandal, or any of trump's countless scandals including a coup attempt, is ignorant and/or stupid. It requires a short glance at the rest of the countries in the world and their governments, policies, and current standing to correctly oppose ppl like shapiro. Or an even shorter glance at our own history. It's going to be hard to argue that their years in office were better than those when they weren't in office - that is, not unless you liked the housing crisis or impossible-to-ignore levels of economic recession. If there's a place on the forum to take this, let me know. If there, you would like to mention a single topic you believe those ppl to be correct on, list it and I'll effortlessly prove you wrong. This literally isn't even politics. This isn't "conservative vs liberal." "Believing" in climate change isn't a political stance - every other developed democracy in the entire world doesn't even have relevant political parties that deny decades of scientific study which confirm climate change. It isn't a political stance to be against someone who actively and constantly corrodes faith in democracy. We can never even have political discussions any more. They're discussions between ppl with knowledge and ppl who believe insane conspiracy theories like "CLINTONS SACRIFICE BABIES TO SATAN." It's absurd. And I'll remind you that I wasn't the person to bring "politics" to this discussion.)))
Feel free to edit that paragraph out of here if "being against those who tried to end democracy in america" is too touchy.
-
You know, sometimes being right isn't worth looking like a dickbag - A bunch of people gave answers as to why our ranks are the way they are, so what exactly are you looking for from this?
...it just seems like someone that professes to be both intelligent (relatively) and nihilistic wouldn't spend so much time arguing over nothing
-
That's it, I'm done. Can a moderator please lock this thread? This has gotten out of hand.
-
The statement that GM never had the wr isn't deduced with incomplete information. It logically follows given only 2 facts, it's not complicated:
1. 80,000 ppl were by definition in the top 1% of GE players.
2. A top 1% GE player can beat a 3:09 bunker 1 00 on his 2nd completion, if not the 1st. (the same is true for most of those other times as well)
It's simple logic and math - not conjecture, not guesswork. 3:09 was never the bunker 1 00 wr. 2:51 was never the Surface 1 SA wr. 2:11 was never the Silo A wr. 1:33 was never the Egypt 00 wr. 1:52 was never the Jungle A wr. These are PRs on a single random cartridge and at one point in time they happened to be the only times posted, simply b/c someone almost had to be the first person to ever post times online.
Asking to prove that a 3:09 wasn't the bunker 1 00 wr is like asking to prove that Super Mario 64 was beaten within a week of its release. It doesn't need to be proven, it's statistically guaranteed.
You make a lot of big assumptions. For one thing, I highly doubt GE had sold that number of units or had that number of players by that point. A good number of owners would likely never play the game seriously or get far in it at all. Personally I played casually and 95% on agent in the 90s. Many would play mostly multiplayer for example. I'd be surprised if 80,000 people had even completed the game on 00 by that point let alone unlocked all cheats as well. A good number of players would only speedrun a few levels if any. At that point it wasn't a given people were even strafe running through most levels; people would be playing extremely safe and using a lot of stopping to shoot type tactics except in very open areas. Especially so on SA/00.
At the end of the day you can claim that lower times must have been achieved at that point but your claim is completely baseless without any kind of evidence; not even a claimed time by a contemporary player. Using statistics to "project" what the likely WR was at the time is EXACTLY what conjecture is. We can debate claims and counterclaims using hard evidence but we can't really debate numbers you pull out of your ass. And we don't have to, since the burden of proof isn't on us to disprove the nonspecific claims you've made; we have credible evidence Glen's claims were true at the time and nothing concrete to count against them.
Also I guarantee SM64 was beaten well over a week in advance of its release date by the beta testers. A game of that stature would have been tested on full playthroughs for months before the final build. It's simply best practice in the games industry and would certainly be documented (although unlikely to be released by Nintendo).
-
2. A top 1% GE player can beat a 3:09 bunker 1 00 on his 2nd completion, if not the 1st. (the same is true for most of those other times as well)
It's simple logic and math - not conjecture, not guesswork. 3:09 was never the bunker 1 00 wr. 2:51 was never the Surface 1 SA wr. 2:11 was never the Silo A wr. 1:33 was never the Egypt 00 wr. 1:52 was never the Jungle A wr. These are PRs on a single random cartridge and at one point in time they happened to be the only times posted, simply b/c someone almost had to be the first person to ever post times online.
You're blinded by 23 years of advance knowledge. In 1998, people didn't even know that strafing or holding speed saved time, let alone that you can warp doors. They had no idea what order objectives should be completed in, and speedrunning as a concept hadn't materialized itself well enough that they would even be thinking in those terms. In 1998, a lot of top runners were likely more worried about dying or getting lost on any given run than they were about getting good camera shots or running Boris etc. A "top 1% GE player" in 1998 probably couldn't beat B1 00 3:09 with any consistency at all.
-
Goldeneye didn't sell 8 million copies in one day. :nesquik:
-
This kid makes me miss xdax
Xdax has a lasting legacy - #ResearchLab wouldn't exist without them
-
Wow, this topic is really... going places! Few things
- that swimming post was awesome
- actually it's even worse than you think; even GameFAQs advice posts didn't exist back then! the forums didn't go live until the very end of 1999, and as for FAQs/walkthroughs, there was nothing useful available (in terms of playing for fast times) until Karl started to update his guides with some speed strats in January 2000
- these stats are wack. even if 8 million people bought GE on day one (they didn't, it had a very slow growth rate and took years of word of mouth to become a gaming sensation), you have to consider the play pattern in terms of incentives. most of those players only bought the cart so they could play multi with their family and friends. of those who did touch solo, almost all of us were horrible. we were Console Kiddies with almost no exposure to Doom or Quake, this was our first FPS experience and 00 mode was a nightmare, let alone beating the whole game with fast times. if you told me less than a quarter of 1% of players had finished every level and unlocked all the cheats "back in the day", I would believe you
- but let's say you were a true prodigy, a gaming god who crushed Aztec and smashed all the target times with ease. what's your incentive to keep improving? it's not like the swimming example above, heck it's not even like Pac-Man in the 80s with thriving local high score scenes and world championships. the only way you'd try to get better was if you had another prodigy as your cousin or friend at school; super rare, and even then one of you would burn out after a couple months. which means the only ones who would have been pushing the game to its limit would have been those OCD hermits mentioned above, who most likely were literally one in a million
- the problem there is, even with hundreds of hours of practice, there's only so far you can go when you've having to develop every strategy independently. and secondly you'd have to be someone so obsessed with GE solo play to devote months of your life to perfecting it... but without ever looking to the internet for any kind of information on the subject whatsoever. already by the Spring of '99 the early Elite sites were the top results for "GE times" on every search engine (that's how I found them). granted internet access was rare back then, but most kids with an N64 at home would have still had a chance to get online every once in a while, at school or the library if nothing else
In summary, okay so the early Elite records were probably not the ACTUAL best times ever achieved to that point, at least for most of the levels. But the actual best ever times probably weren't much better; it's hard to overestimate just how terrible we were.
-
they're so bad that they were certainly never the WR but just happened to be the only times posted
Certainly not guaranteed to be the fastest times ever at that point, but credit where it's due:
- Probably 1.1 no-CC
- Probably no example runs to watch, tutorials, collaborative effort, etc. Entirely self-made strats.
- Based on the games release date, we're talking probably only talking about even owning the cart 6 to 8 months.
- Was speedrunning even a thing in the world?
All that said, um, yeah you should still be able to finish S1 SA in less than 2:51. But Fac 00 1:18 is pretty insane considering how notorious that 2:05 cheat target time was. A comfortable 47 second margin would have sounded impossible to me. Actually, I decided to take a look at the video now and I'm surprised how much it looks like a modern route, especially the shooting to lure open doors. Sure it's simple, but I wouldn't have figured all that shit out on my own. I was using keycards and pressing that console to open the doors.[/list]
You were like the magazine who offered the challenge and thought a 1:04 in 1998 was "impossible" even though I had sent in the video to the magazine for proof - The magazine allowed picture proof of worse times which they posted in the following edition or 2 to their challenge and my time was not posted
Anyways yeah the shooting down the stairs which the speed lore doesn't go into was probably the first "lure" ever in the game and definitely was captured on video by yours truly - Just was never "coined" then anyways as a "lure" however its the exact definition of what was implied in acquiring 1:04 at the time which its still being employed today as mainline in the first part of the level - Yes it was definitely remarkable thinking at the time being 16 to derive this specific lure on Facility into existence (manipulating the guards RNG)
As far as the Glen Mcdermaic* (sp) page - I remember being at the Marlborough High School Library and having TIMES ALREADY which I decided to browse to see online this thing called the internet and Internet Explorer (yeah I know were going way back pre youtube days) and thinking lets see if there is anything about Goldeneye and fast times without using the cheats that were given should you beat the target times - Sure enough I ran across Glen's page and remember Steven Z name on there as well as eventually Patrick Wessels - Feel like Mike Martin was definitely later however people here in "recording elite history" say otherwise...I vaguely remember Mike Martins name unless maybe in a forum post tbh
The whole point I guess is to say searching at the library I definitely already had better majority times then those presented on Glen's page and for me it was simple to take pictures or compile VHS recordings when I had time to validate myself or set a standard for proof of WR's - So yeah there was a "managed" page by Glen with recordings of times however they weren't the best in this sense of WR and who got what when - I do think his "page" I ran across was the earliest "times" though of anything within Goldeneye for N64 game in 1998 imho - There wasn't other search findings that peaked my interest or had any type of page or community at this point of my internet search findings
As mentioned I had times that were better than many posted and then joined and reached out to Glen to see how I could be added if I remember correctly - He definitely had the sole record and loved B1A which he had :19s in 1998 which again somewhat decent for the era providing (no lookdown - not acquiring all the right boosts - not using something better than 1.1 optimal lines low frame rate or door warpings etc) Which to boot he was also using PAL as I believe he was located in Europe somewhere and much older than me like 25 years older - So it was just a fun thing for him to post or design a page and that 1 year of 1998 was the extent of his playing or speed running the game really
So for me Glen's :19 B1A alone for sure was the only WR on his page that stuck out that happened to be a better time than mine once I searched for Goldeneye Records - Steven Z definitely had some times that were better than mine also that were posted to Glen's page which made me continue to play and have that early rivalry with him for GE champion (1.1 anyways)
It disheartened me that I was proving everything for everyone else by WR videos which when he (or others providing no videos when picture proof was suffice really) didn't exactly prove himself/themselves it was upsetting because I couldn't see how to improve on given levels or understand a better strategy that may of been in use
Would hoard small things that would eventually be found much later apparently from others years down the line and thats fine if people believe they found "new strategies" however majority of the findings were known had anyone reached out or discussed level by level in an early era these findings would of been covered much earlier
Nowadays you have hundreds of videos to look at to improve a given time as well as all the experts knowledge on control styles to proper cut scenes to even which strafe line is best or acquiring a grenade at certain point within a run etc
So hopefully that continues to clarify the early "page" of goldeneye top times in the first year the game was out
p.s DDM6 don't worry about some of the back lash - Many people have been here for a long time and know relatively as much as they can since when they've been introduced - Some are more harsh than others as they have seen other trolls (not you) plenty of times since the creation of the forums - So they "have all the answers" the "know it alls" which some don't - However don't let that bother you as everyone is entitled to their opinions expert or not - Do think we should all have continued compassion and DDM6 is stating things in good faith - Ive seen you here on the boards for at least 6 months so don't allow these guys to walk on ya :smokin: - Id always have push back and still do with some OG's who think they know it all even though I knew of things before them which they don't "believe" - So keep searching for truth its out there!
-
lol this thread
-
Goldeneye didn't sell 8 million copies in one day. :nesquik:
This is of course an excellent point, but whether it sold 8 mil or 800k, the top 1% of the top 1% is still a ton of ppl and those ppl are undoubtedly amazing. I think a ton of ppl in here are severely underestimating how much a 3:09 sucks. Talking about 2021 strats like all the time save comes from a game-breaking glitch or something while in reality they save like 30s max on that level. Ppl complained about the target time on fac 00 - NO ONE complained about the 4:00 target time on bunker 1 00 b/c it's obviously free.
As I said, I've killed everyone in the level much faster than that while raging like a toddler and I'm just an awful player, especially on 00.
If you saw me play you'd say I don't even use speedrunning strats. You'd say I have the worst OCB ever. You'd wonder why I even bother to post my times here as such a casual.
Icy gets it though. If I stated the fact: "IF all balls are red AND I have a ball in my backpack, THEN I have a red item in my backpack," you wouldn't start arguing about black rectangular items. The correct way to deal with that fact would be to prove that its truth doesn't matter, or is irrelevant - b/c obviously there's a problem with the assumption that all balls are red, an easily disproven thing.
"IF you think I'm sexy, AND you want my body, _________?" lol... logic, anyone?
they're so bad that they were certainly never the WR but just happened to be the only times posted
Certainly not guaranteed to be the fastest times ever at that point, but credit where it's due:
- Probably 1.1 no-CC
- Probably no example runs to watch, tutorials, collaborative effort, etc. Entirely self-made strats.
- Based on the games release date, we're talking probably only talking about even owning the cart 6 to 8 months.
- Was speedrunning even a thing in the world?
All that said, um, yeah you should still be able to finish S1 SA in less than 2:51. But Fac 00 1:18 is pretty insane considering how notorious that 2:05 cheat target time was. A comfortable 47 second margin would have sounded impossible to me. Actually, I decided to take a look at the video now and I'm surprised how much it looks like a modern route, especially the shooting to lure open doors. Sure it's simple, but I wouldn't have figured all that shit out on my own. I was using keycards and pressing that console to open the doors.[/list]
You were like the magazine who offered the challenge and thought a 1:04 in 1998 was "impossible" even though I had sent in the video to the magazine for proof - The magazine allowed picture proof of worse times which they posted in the following edition or 2 to their challenge and my time was not posted
Anyways yeah the shooting down the stairs which the speed lore doesn't go into was probably the first "lure" ever in the game and definitely was captured on video by yours truly - Just was never "coined" then anyways as a "lure" however its the exact definition of what was implied in acquiring 1:04 at the time which its still being employed today as mainline in the first part of the level - Yes it was definitely remarkable thinking at the time being 16 to derive this specific lure on Facility into existence (manipulating the guards RNG)
As far as the Glen Mcdermaic* (sp) page - I remember being at the Marlborough High School Library and having TIMES ALREADY which I decided to browse to see online this thing called the internet and Internet Explorer (yeah I know were going way back pre youtube days) and thinking lets see if there is anything about Goldeneye and fast times without using the cheats that were given should you beat the target times - Sure enough I ran across Glen's page and remember Steven Z name on there as well as eventually Patrick Wessels - Feel like Mike Martin was definitely later however people here in "recording elite history" say otherwise...I vaguely remember Mike Martins name unless maybe in a forum post tbh
The whole point I guess is to say searching at the library I definitely already had better majority times then those presented on Glen's page and for me it was simple to take pictures or compile VHS recordings when I had time to validate myself or set a standard for proof of WR's - So yeah there was a "managed" page by Glen with recordings of times however they weren't the best in this sense of WR and who got what when - I do think his "page" I ran across was the earliest "times" though of anything within Goldeneye for N64 game in 1998 imho - There wasn't other search findings that peaked my interest or had any type of page or community at this point of my internet search findings
As mentioned I had times that were better than many posted and then joined and reached out to Glen to see how I could be added if I remember correctly - He definitely had the sole record and loved B1A which he had :19s in 1998 which again somewhat decent for the era providing (no lookdown - not acquiring all the right boosts - not using something better than 1.1 optimal lines low frame rate or door warpings etc) Which to boot he was also using PAL as I believe he was located in Europe somewhere and much older than me like 25 years older - So it was just a fun thing for him to post or design a page and that 1 year of 1998 was the extent of his playing or speed running the game really
So for me Glen's :19 B1A alone for sure was the only WR on his page that stuck out that happened to be a better time than mine once I searched for Goldeneye Records - Steven Z definitely had some times that were better than mine also that were posted to Glen's page which made me continue to play and have that early rivalry with him for GE champion (1.1 anyways)
It disheartened me that I was proving everything for everyone else by WR videos which when he (or others providing no videos when picture proof was suffice really) didn't exactly prove himself/themselves it was upsetting because I couldn't see how to improve on given levels or understand a better strategy that may of been in use
Would hoard small things that would eventually be found much later apparently from others years down the line and thats fine if people believe they found "new strategies" however majority of the findings were known had anyone reached out or discussed level by level in an early era these findings would of been covered much earlier
Nowadays you have hundreds of videos to look at to improve a given time as well as all the experts knowledge on control styles to proper cut scenes to even which strafe line is best or acquiring a grenade at certain point within a run etc
So hopefully that continues to clarify the early "page" of goldeneye top times in the first year the game was out
p.s DDM6 don't worry about some of the back lash - Many people have been here for a long time and know relatively as much as they can since when they've been introduced - Some are more harsh than others as they have seen other trolls (not you) plenty of times since the creation of the forums - So they "have all the answers" the "know it alls" which some don't - However don't let that bother you as everyone is entitled to their opinions expert or not - Do think we should all have continued compassion and DDM6 is stating things in good faith - Ive seen you here on the boards for at least 6 months so don't allow these guys to walk on ya :smokin: - Id always have push back and still do with some OG's who think they know it all even though I knew of things before them which they don't "believe" - So keep searching for truth its out there!
I'm glad to have first hand evidence right in this very thread - a player who looked up GE times online and found that his times were better than the best posted times on there. This guy isn't the only player, for sure.
It's amazing to me that you were even using the internet for such things. I would have never considered that in '98. The internet was basically an encyclopedia to me, well, that plus a messaging device to keep in touch. The only entertainment I believed the internet was good for was porn (I was only 9 years old too, lol). I knew games could be played like Duke Nukem 3d, Quake, and Tomb Raider, but that wasn't "the internet," even when playing Quake online I didn't think of it like that - that was more like, jus a multiplayer game on a console. I'm not sure if I had a distorted view of it or if the internet was really so much different, I was too young. Probably a combo of both.
Wow, this topic is really... going places! Few things
- that swimming post was awesome
- actually it's even worse than you think; even GameFAQs advice posts didn't exist back then! the forums didn't go live until the very end of 1999, and as for FAQs/walkthroughs, there was nothing useful available (in terms of playing for fast times) until Karl started to update his guides with some speed strats in January 2000
- these stats are wack. even if 8 million people bought GE on day one (they didn't, it had a very slow growth rate and took years of word of mouth to become a gaming sensation), you have to consider the play pattern in terms of incentives. most of those players only bought the cart so they could play multi with their family and friends. of those who did touch solo, almost all of us were horrible. we were Console Kiddies with almost no exposure to Doom or Quake, this was our first FPS experience and 00 mode was a nightmare, let alone beating the whole game with fast times. if you told me less than a quarter of 1% of players had finished every level and unlocked all the cheats "back in the day", I would believe you
- but let's say you were a true prodigy, a gaming god who crushed Aztec and smashed all the target times with ease. what's your incentive to keep improving? it's not like the swimming example above, heck it's not even like Pac-Man in the 80s with thriving local high score scenes and world championships. the only way you'd try to get better was if you had another prodigy as your cousin or friend at school; super rare, and even then one of you would burn out after a couple months. which means the only ones who would have been pushing the game to its limit would have been those OCD hermits mentioned above, who most likely were literally one in a million
- the problem there is, even with hundreds of hours of practice, there's only so far you can go when you've having to develop every strategy independently. and secondly you'd have to be someone so obsessed with GE solo play to devote months of your life to perfecting it... but without ever looking to the internet for any kind of information on the subject whatsoever. already by the Spring of '99 the early Elite sites were the top results for "GE times" on every search engine (that's how I found them). granted internet access was rare back then, but most kids with an N64 at home would have still had a chance to get online every once in a while, at school or the library if nothing else
In summary, okay so the early Elite records were probably not the ACTUAL best times ever achieved to that point, at least for most of the levels. But the actual best ever times probably weren't much better; it's hard to overestimate just how terrible we were.
A quarter of 1% of a million is still 2500 ppl. If the game only sold 100k copies by then, that's still 250 ppl. The top 1% times there are going to be good. Look at really hard games like Sekiro, Bloodborne, or Dark Souls. The % of ppl who platinumed those games is much higher than you might think it is. I would think I'd be among them, as I've beaten them over and over again, but I'm not. Don't underestimate the top 1%. 100 ppl is truly a lot and the best among them is going to be damn good.
The statement that GM never had the wr isn't deduced with incomplete information. It logically follows given only 2 facts, it's not complicated:
1. 80,000 ppl were by definition in the top 1% of GE players.
2. A top 1% GE player can beat a 3:09 bunker 1 00 on his 2nd completion, if not the 1st. (the same is true for most of those other times as well)
It's simple logic and math - not conjecture, not guesswork. 3:09 was never the bunker 1 00 wr. 2:51 was never the Surface 1 SA wr. 2:11 was never the Silo A wr. 1:33 was never the Egypt 00 wr. 1:52 was never the Jungle A wr. These are PRs on a single random cartridge and at one point in time they happened to be the only times posted, simply b/c someone almost had to be the first person to ever post times online.
Asking to prove that a 3:09 wasn't the bunker 1 00 wr is like asking to prove that Super Mario 64 was beaten within a week of its release. It doesn't need to be proven, it's statistically guaranteed.
You make a lot of big assumptions. For one thing, I highly doubt GE had sold that number of units or had that number of players by that point. A good number of owners would likely never play the game seriously or get far in it at all. Personally I played casually and 95% on agent in the 90s. Many would play mostly multiplayer for example. I'd be surprised if 80,000 people had even completed the game on 00 by that point let alone unlocked all cheats as well. A good number of players would only speedrun a few levels if any. At that point it wasn't a given people were even strafe running through most levels; people would be playing extremely safe and using a lot of stopping to shoot type tactics except in very open areas. Especially so on SA/00.
At the end of the day you can claim that lower times must have been achieved at that point but your claim is completely baseless without any kind of evidence; not even a claimed time by a contemporary player. Using statistics to "project" what the likely WR was at the time is EXACTLY what conjecture is. We can debate claims and counterclaims using hard evidence but we can't really debate numbers you pull out of your ass. And we don't have to, since the burden of proof isn't on us to disprove the nonspecific claims you've made; we have credible evidence Glen's claims were true at the time and nothing concrete to count against them.
Also I guarantee SM64 was beaten well over a week in advance of its release date by the beta testers. A game of that stature would have been tested on full playthroughs for months before the final build. It's simply best practice in the games industry and would certainly be documented (although unlikely to be released by Nintendo).
A good number of players will not even beat the game on agent, for sure. Perhaps half of them will never even do it. Those aren't the top 1% of the top 1% though - these guys are really impressive. I thought I was really something when I unlocked all the cheats for the first time while in reality I was only the best amongst maybe 10 ppl who I knew that played. Realistically, I was probably only somewhere between the top 5-10%.
Because we didn't have the internet back then and only knew small groups of ppl who played doesn't mean that few were as good as we were, it only means that we didn't see the very best players in the world back then - they still existed.
The level Bunker 1 00 has a target time of 4:00. By the time someone survives the level, they destroy the target time no matter how awful they are, and here's proof:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6FB6NIye1U
This is a 2:58 - it's 1.1. IT'S A "CHEAT UNLOCKED" TIME. He can't aim. He kills everyone and he does it slowly. He needs to catch Boris 3 times. You are unfamiliar with how bad a 3:09 is, but here's proof. It's actually hard to imagine that GM's time was 11 seconds SLOWER than this.
3:09 is unbelievably, shockingly bad. It's bad for any player who's even reached Bunker 1 on 00 - it's impossibly bad for a top 1% player.
When I said: "I can kill everyone in a temper tantrum and destroy everything in the level in much less time than 3:09," I wasn't exaggerating. When I said, "I could kill almost everyone and have to chase Boris half way across the room and still beat it," I wasn't exaggerating. I know exactly how much a 3:09 sucks b/c I recently went through 00 for the first time in a decade casually and recorded my times.
2. A top 1% GE player can beat a 3:09 bunker 1 00 on his 2nd completion, if not the 1st. (the same is true for most of those other times as well)
It's simple logic and math - not conjecture, not guesswork. 3:09 was never the bunker 1 00 wr. 2:51 was never the Surface 1 SA wr. 2:11 was never the Silo A wr. 1:33 was never the Egypt 00 wr. 1:52 was never the Jungle A wr. These are PRs on a single random cartridge and at one point in time they happened to be the only times posted, simply b/c someone almost had to be the first person to ever post times online.
You're blinded by 23 years of advance knowledge. In 1998, people didn't even know that strafing or holding speed saved time, let alone that you can warp doors. They had no idea what order objectives should be completed in, and speedrunning as a concept hadn't materialized itself well enough that they would even be thinking in those terms. In 1998, a lot of top runners were likely more worried about dying or getting lost on any given run than they were about getting good camera shots or running Boris etc. A "top 1% GE player" in 1998 probably couldn't beat B1 00 3:09 with any consistency at all.
A top 1% player can't do better than this CHEAT UNLOCKED 2:58 then:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6FB6NIye1U
You're unfamiliar with how bad a 3:09 is - . See above for details.
lol this thread
It's almost worth trying to wrap my head around GM's awful times.
I have a serious q for all: where do you draw the line? Hypothetically, if 20+ min vids of each level were found to be recorded on Day 1 of the game's release, would you upload those as former WRs?
No? So... you draw the line somewhere between a 20 minute Bunker 1 00 and a 3:09?! I want to know where that line is.
-
stop being so weird
-
So your proposition is what? Removing Mcdiarmid because his times aren't up to your standards, or changing the original records to "Probably something good" achieved by "Likely a quarter of one percent of the people who owned the game" Set sometime between August 25th, 1997 - May 13th, 1997?
I think the root of the issue of this thread is that it's just aimless complaining about how shit some dinosaur times are with no proposed solution or even clear identification of what your objective was in creating it.
-
So your proposition is what? Removing Mcdiarmid because his times aren't up to your standards, or changing the original records to "Probably something good" achieved by "Likely a quarter of one percent of the people who owned the game" Set sometime between August 25th, 1997 - May 13th, 1997?
I think the root of the issue of this thread is that it's just aimless complaining about how shit some dinosaur times are with no proposed solution or even clear identification of what your objective was in creating it.
That's a hilarious proposition but I'm not proposing anything. I wanted to get a feel for others' thoughts on my dismissal of GM's times. It's just weird that the times go from GM's on 7/23 to everyone else's destroying them on 7/24, which makes clear that GM's times were no more than memes. I already stated that I don't want his times erased or anything, they were proven so they're fine. But I do sort of have an agenda now.
As memeworthy as all of this is, we've got no related content. I'm talking about fake 5 minute videos of Dam A that are purported to be dug up from day 1 of GE's release and claimed (as a joke) as wrs with commentary from all in the community about how great the wr was for its time.
I'm talking about tongue-in-cheek speedlores from Goose on how good GM's 3:09 Bunker 1 00 was with a mock quest to beat it tied in.
Documentary style vids of old dudes seeming to reminisce about how good some random guy's times were, until, sadly, minutes after the game was officially released to the public.
I just think there's a comedy gold mine untapped here since laughing out loud multiple times while trying for Bunker 1 A :18 tonight b/c I keep remembering ppl talking about how good GM's times were for 5/15/98. It's just so funny and I need more.
-
On a much smaller scale, I look back on my own times page all the way back in early 2004 when I was ranked #3 in the whole wide world and wonder how on Earth my times were such garbage. In my 2015 prime, where I wasn't ever gonna even sniff the top 5, I could beat my 2004 times with my eyes closed and within an hour.
Strats develop of course, your mental state changes (how far can I push this level?), knowledge is more broadly shared and your skill increases dramatically as the player pool also increases.
Wouter Jansen was a dominant champion up to 2003, and it isn't hard to imagine a scenario where he looked back to his entry times in 1999 and wondered why he wasn't 60/60 back then.
Understand what I mean?
-
Up until the early 1800's, humans believed that the highest mountain peak in the world was Chimborazo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_past_presumed_highest_mountains), in the Andes. Today we know it is the 39th highest peak in the Andes, and not even in the Top 100 peaks in the world. But for a very long time, we believed it was the tallest mountain in the world.
I'm too lazy to write the next 5000 words I was thinking about in order for this post to make sense as it relates to this topic, so I will just leave that as food for thought.
-
I'm too lazy to write the next 5000 words I was thinking about in order for this post to make sense as it relates to this topic, so I will just leave that as food for thought.
This forum post is intentionally left blank as an exercise to the reader :nesquik: I enjoy the brevity rather than whatever ddm posts about in his "math, facts, and logic"
-
(https://i.imgur.com/hfj63BW.jpg)
Apologise.
-
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/786745404972728382/840123137898315817/unknown.png)
-
- that swimming post was awesome
Thanks. I swear I never meant to start any shit, my initial reply was meant to have the tone of "Cool, cool, but here's another way of looking at it." But as a silver lining to everything, very glad to get that inspiration.
As for everything else, may God have mercy on our souls.
-
May God have mercy on our souls.
-
On a much smaller scale, I look back on my own times page all the way back in early 2004 when I was ranked #3 in the whole wide world and wonder how on Earth my times were such garbage. In my 2015 prime, where I wasn't ever gonna even sniff the top 5, I could beat my 2004 times with my eyes closed and within an hour.
Strats develop of course, your mental state changes (how far can I push this level?), knowledge is more broadly shared and your skill increases dramatically as the player pool also increases.
Wouter Jansen was a dominant champion up to 2003, and it isn't hard to imagine a scenario where he looked back to his entry times in 1999 and wondered why he wasn't 60/60 back then.
Understand what I mean?
While I do see what you mean in regards to years, that doesn't seem very relevant when talking about GM's times on 7/23 and then the very next day they're completely destroyed, proving that they weren't good "for their time."
Up until the early 1800's, humans believed that the highest mountain peak in the world was Chimborazo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_past_presumed_highest_mountains), in the Andes. Today we know it is the 39th highest peak in the Andes, and not even in the Top 100 peaks in the world. But for a very long time, we believed it was the tallest mountain in the world.
I'm too lazy to write the next 5000 words I was thinking about in order for this post to make sense as it relates to this topic, so I will just leave that as food for thought.
OOOOOOH... on the other side of THAT whole coin (the "for its time" coin). I'd have never thought of that, nice analogy. I could finish this, don't worry. Well actually I can't. But the point is that, before knowledge was shared so widely, what we THOUGHT was the "best" was a joke on a global scale b/c we didn't have a global perspective. One more person who knows just how much a 3:09 Bunker 1 00 sucks and how many mountains must have been higher than that, not to be discovered until 7/24/98.
But I've jumped ship, Goose. I think McDiarmid was amazing for his time now. If only we could see the guy before him. Imagine seeing the guy before him, a McDiarrhea perhaps, the first person to employ the joystick to move forward. He could have inspired millions if he had only recorded his 10 minute Dam 00.