Control Style 2.3 (Domino) Discussion

[bcks]

Quote:The argument that you can't prove that it WASN'T two people is completely flawed.

The same can be said about 1 person(alone) useing 2.3/2.4

2.3/4 clearly favors haveing another person to help, and it would be alot easyer to set wrs/prs with help(a friend, good ge player, etc), on at least depot.

In fact, i would rather train/find somebody good enough to help, then to learn how to use 2 controlers on my own.
Not that i would bother, but im sure this could and will happen if it's allowed.

[Grags]

Amen mrsooreams

bcks like i said before, pointing towards 1.1 - 1.4

Quote:Who's to say that some people didn't ask a mate to press A+B to detonate mines or open a door to save a fiddly moment to alow full control.

and like mrsooreams says, this is where trust has to come into it.

[Wouter Jansen]

why can't you read and keep asking the same when it has already been answered? and when I say to disallow 2.3 I would mean the intro trick purely. I still think records are for 1.x setups only whatever any of you say, because I see 2.x just as another kind of coop. it doesn't matter if you can play 1 controller with 2 people, or play 2 controllers with 1 person; both are simply non-logic, as it would be to use cheats. the game even has pbcs, and they were totally intended aswell. I can totally compare the 2. if we allow any glitch, any trick, any button presses we can find that allows us to lower times, PBCs are allowed, TOO.

[Wouter Jansen]

and why do you say co-op records shouldn't count and then ask why not? 2.x is clearly a co-op, no matter how many people use the controllers. the game is controlled by 2 controllers and that's all the game knows. you don't even know what you're saying, and can't make up your own mind without knowing why you wander off into a certain direction..

[wishiwasfamous]

EDIT: WTF, my post got deleted.

[Lark]

I'm for 2.3, but I'm against the method used in the beginning cinema on depot.

I mean, ffs, you can complete half of objective B even before the timer starts!

Most other glitches in GE and PD are legit, because they are performed when the timer starts.

[Wouter Jansen]

yes Lark, that's the main objection.

besides, noone would ever even give thought to using these 2.x if it didn't have the glitch, since they're obviously uncomfortable. and even when playing with 2 players, it doesn't make sense. this isn't an arguement btw, just stating a fact.

[wishiwasfamous]

Seriously though, I'd like to see you and Matthijs (or someone of your choice) use 2.3 at the same time and get a good time (point worthy). You keep claiming that 2.3 is 2 players only, but don't supply any proof. I'm really not believing that any of us could train someone, be they elite or not, to be our second controller. Fact my ass, Wouter.

The 2.3 trick could have easily been found by anyone, be they a hacker or some little kid. Finding the PBCs required skill and hacks. These weren't meant to be found. But since they were found eventually, Rare fessed up and posted them (unless I'm mistaken).

But we already use cinema scenes to our advantage. We pick the Dam scenes we want so we can get the fastest time and not get stuck by the door. We use Cradle cutscenes to get a faster time so that trev can get to the hut. We also pick what ending places we want so that we can get a better time in the next level, like Air Base endings and AF1 beginnings.

In response to a previous post, the G5 cheat is very much possible to get without using the camspy trick, just not for n00bs that don't know the level like we do. Matt (Cook) did this in one of his speedruns I believe.

If we don't want objectives to be completed while you aren't able to move, why do we still allow fade-out objective completions to count? Last time I checked, you couldn't move, so it can be considered a cutscene.

[Lecmasta]

First, I don't mind if a person uses 2 controllers for speed running. It's just plain stupid and harder to use imo.

And people who think 2 people can achieve a WR by playing with one controller each (2.X) must be completely dumb. Shade and I could try that for hours, and we'd just end up striking in each other's face. This isn't serious. Even on low complexity levels this would be a pain in the ass to pull off. I pee in the face of people who have the patience to try this method hard.


Second, I don't agree with the tricks being used in the cutscenes. It just doesn't makes any sense to me. Too glitchy, you can't complete an objective before the timer starts, it's simply not fair.

Third, from what I can remember, the G5 cheat time is 1:40. The WR being 38 (is it 37 now?) it's just impossible to achieve the cheat without watching cinema. ( a whole minute of wait, + you gotta wait 7-8 seconds or even more for the door to open). So you're the n00b here wiff, I guess it just shows how few PD you've played    

Maybe like 1:43 or so could be possible ( I have very poor knowledge about the level), but there's no way the programmers didn't see the glitch, they surely did. And I bet they didn't even think someone could do sub 1min

[boole]

2.3 should be allowed...on a seperate ranking. Since it is pretty gosh darn hard to prove whether it is 1 or 2 people playing I figure...
Yeah whatever
I don't actually give a fuck, I'm too hip for this.

[Jimbo]

I resent you thinking my 1:34 Silo 00A run is cheated. Also, go 2.3!

[Imperfect Clark]

Quote:(shoot out screen in drone room during cinema + roller door open) and Caverns (beginning lift door can be opened in cinema)

EXPLAIN IM A NUB LOL

This issue bears most resemblance to the cruise control issue, I think. "Wrong in principle, but ...heyfuckit!"  If someone got a record with it that would be a hairy situation.  There'd be no way to prove it wasn't a two person record.. none.  A single PR on 2.3 introduces contentiousness.  We let a lot of stuff go without proof around here, but introducing things that CANNOT even be proven is a threat to whatever claim to authenticity our tables till possess.

Separate rankings for this if people start doing it... really no choice in it.  I think interest in change is biasing people to justify its inclusion.

[TreAKAHotdog]

i say it should be allowed...but keep in mind not everyone has 2 controllers.  it would be unfair to make someone get a controller to get a better time

[Wouter Jansen]

"You keep claiming that 2.3 is 2 players only, but don't supply any proof."

eh.. I never said it's 2 players only. obviously 1 player can control both. the fact is and stays, that it stays the same settings. if you would play pd coop by yourself all alone, it would still be coop. thus, done by 2 controllers, which, to the game, means basically 2 persons. we're just using persons as the 'thing' that gives the input to the game.. it could just aswell be anything else.. its still 2 controllers and the game still gets commands from both sockets.
PS your ass is a fact indeed.

how easy it is to find or not, has nothing to do with it. there's simply smart people out there, and the Defection glitch isn't exactly an easy find either.

we use intro's etc to our advantage yes.. but we have never before, completed parts of objectives outside of the timer running. the fadeout isn't part of the outro either, since there's only an outro when everything completed, but you always get the fadeout.

[ShadowZero64]

Quote:i say it should be allowed...but keep in mind not everyone has 2 controllers. it would be unfair to make someone get a controller to get a better time

It's a hell lot more fair than having to get both NTSC and PAL to compete fully on the pd rankings...

[Imperfect Clark]

Pull out the old GE manual and debates about the purpose of the 2.x controls are put to rest.

[Wouter Jansen]

"choose 1 of the 4 controller settings" - translated from dutch (no english in our manual..)

sounds logic, since 2.x only are available when a 2nd controller is in the n64, and it isn't mentioned in the manual..

[mrsooreams]

Wouter, I'm amused that you criticise me for being open to having my mind changed. I'm independent on this, it makes no difference to me personally whether 2.3 is allowed or not, because I'm never going to get near the WR. So I've just listened to the arguments presented, which you constantly criticise everyone else for not doing, and I find the arguments for allowing 2.3 better than those for disallowing it. If I'm wrong about that, it just means that you've failed to present your arguments well, which wouldn't be much of a surprise since most of your discussion technique is based around insulting the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you.

Precedents have been set for allowing "unfair" advantages, like PD's lifts on PAL, and the number of people here who have both PAL and NTSC must be tiny compared to the number who have two controllers. You can play 2.3 co-op, sure, and you can also play 1.2 co-op. Co-op should probably not be allowed, but it's a moot point because you have no way of enforcing a ban on it.

Anyway I realise it's pointless to argue with you personally, Wouter, because you are unable to admit when you're wrong. I'm only arguing so that people who are actually interested in hearing both sides can make their own minds up. You have a vested interest to the tune of 200 points and two untied records. Of course now you claim that these records are over-estimated, like all the others, although it seems odd that you have so few of them considering how lowly they apparently are.

Jim, I hope you didn't really think I was implying you cheated - you were just very lucky. But there's no way to prove that. A player could use an Action Replay to give himself an advantage that just seemed like luck. Hey maybe some of the players here even did that already, it's not like we'd know. The point is, it's not possible to prove that you didn't cheat.

[Wouter Jansen]

I hope you realise that you're a hypocrite there..

and that any pro-points are already moot.

besides, you are trying harder to look clever than I am.

[mrsooreams]

Maybe, but I don't need to try very hard to look cleverer than you.

[Wouter Jansen]

more clever*

[mrsooreams]

Good try, but no. Check any dictionary or read the American Heritage dictionary online or even the Oxford dictionary online.

[Wouter Jansen]

*Follow-up post*

[Grags]

I think the best way to settle this is take a vote.

[..]

That's probably the worst way to settle this.

[wishiwasfamous]

Yeah, I guess. Thanks Lec.

[Lovins]

We can't vote, becuz some ppl's opinions are certainly more important than others around here, understandably.

You guys all make really good points. I like Wouter's point that the intro scene is not the same as when you complete an objective while the screen fades out. The intro scene can be compared to the outro scenes, but we cannot complete objectives during the outros (although can fail, I know from experience  ). The run ends when the screen has completely faded out, just as it begins exactly when it starts to fade in.

*pauses*

I was going to say that because of that, anything outside of those boundaries, objectives cannot be allowed to be completed because it is NOT part of the run and/or the best time should it be achieved.
But I'm still so undecided about that...because you have to draw a line between allowable and disallowable glitches. And this glitch is NOT in any way cheating (except for the 2 person argument, which seems pretty insignificant to me).
If I had to pick now, I'd say.....1.1 CRUISE ALL THE WAY!!

[Matt-Cook1]

I think a good way could be for the community to vote on a panel of say 7, and then the panel should vote on the decision.

You just give points ranging from 1 - 7 to 7 different people. 7 peeps w/ most votes go on panel.

[Wouter Jansen]

eh, obviously we'll be deciding on logic, and the logic is clearly in the manual..

[rshepherd1000]

2.3 ftl

clark summed it up well

[rshepherd1000]

handy abbreviation guide:

ftl = for the lose, ie it sucks
ftw = for the win, ie its good!
qft = quoted for truth
cc = cruise control
sz = jim = noob

[flukey lukey]

! i thought ftw was wtf backwards

[RK]

[wishiwasfamous]

The manual isn't always right!

*keeps looking for Spyder*

[Lark]

Okay Wiff you keep looking for the spyder and I'll continue my search for the All Bonds Cheat that the manual keeps ranting about!

[Djie]

 @ Lec's post.

[Lovins]

Don't forget to kill Oddjob and Mayday too...

[Discombobulator11]

I once rigged a controller so that I used the control stick, dirk used the A and B buttons, greg used C up and C down, Dan controlled C left and C right, Roger too care of R and L, and we flipped a five sided coin for who got to use the start button.  We then proceeded to all claim any times we achieved with this method.

[Matt-Cook1]

Does the manual not tell you that if you find the control stick is off center you should fix it up by holding R+L+start? If so, I don't think your manual point holds any water, wouter. Well I doubt anyone thinks it holds any either way.

[bcks]

Quote:Does the manual not tell you that if you find the control stick is off center you should fix it up by holding R+L+start?

Yep.

[Quiet Bol]

Somehow I think it takes away from the majesty of the Elite's records to allow such a weird and glitched control style that was most certainly intended for co-op usage. Nobody really plays the game this way. I think any outsider finding the Elite and realizing that this lame 2.3 glitch was used would be less impressed because of it.

Also, am I wrong in thinking that the records achieved with 2.3, if allowed, would be further from maxed and sloppier, due to the inherent difficulty in using 2 controllers?

[wishiwasfamous]

yes, you are

[Lovins]

Quote:Somehow I think it takes away from the majesty of the Elite's records to allow such a weird and glitched control style that was most certainly intended for co-op usage. Nobody really plays the game this way. I think any outsider finding the Elite and realizing that this lame 2.3 glitch was used would be less impressed because of it.

Very good point. I would agree as well that we should all care about how the Elite is viewed by outsiders/new players. It would really suck if someone found the Elite's incredible records but then got in their head, "oh, but look what they have to do to get a time like that" after downloading a depot vid where the screen was shot out before the run even started. On the other hand, all other tricks/glitches we use (all DURING the run) would be quite impressive and reflect more accurately the knowledge we have amassed over the years about this game. There is such a clear difference between this glitch and any others. I'm leaning more and more towards not allowing it.

[Wouter Jansen]

it says if you want to undo it, you must fix it with that r/l/start. since I don't always want to, it's perfectly in line with the manual.

[deletedprofile.u]

Hey, Wouter.  Go Jansen.

Are you using more glitches to go incredibly faster?  The next thing you know you'll merge with it and be able to shoot bullets out of your ass.

[mrsooreams]

That did not make a lot of sense.

[CreepingDeath007]

I don't think this glitch takes away from the majesty of the records at all. IMO the defection glitch is a lot more "lame" than this.  And how would we know what newbs will think when they first see this site? They could just as well be impressed and think it's cool.

Also, you guys keep saying it's co-op but as someone mentioned before it could just as easily been intended so you could play with 2 analog sticks. Plus, you can still use 2.X in both single player and co-op in PD.  And in the menu screen it says "Control Style 2.3 (Two-Handed)".  Nowhere does it say "Two-Person".

[Wouter Jansen]

the defection trick at least takes skills which aren't caused by an abnormal playing configuration.

tho watch is wrong anyway, since it says move for one stick, look for the other. but move = moving forwards/backwards + LOOKING left/right. and look = looking up/down + MOVING left/right. if move was really move in whichever direction you push, then you could just use one stick as the c-buttons in 1.2 and it would actually be pretty easy to get records as well  

if by 'menu screen' you mean the watch, it doesn't say Two-Handed here..

and it still defeats the purpose of speedrunning, as the timer isn't running. if GE had duel, we'd even get 0:00 times

[Brucmack]

Well, some of you are discussing what outsiders to the elite would think, so here are a couple of cents from a common lurker...Personally, I never even considered the 2.x styles as being two-person, only as being two-handed. I tried them a bit but gave up since it was awkward. Pretty much what others have experienced, I'm sure. But I don't think there should be doubt about whether it is still one person, because I doubt it could work with two people... too tough to coordinate.But the more important question is that of using the glitches... Opening a door before the timer starts isn't a big problem for me, because it takes no skill anyway. The only change to the run is that it has a lower time at the end. So I don't feel that exploiting that particular glitch takes away from the record. But shooting out the screen in depot is a little different. It's actually something that makes the run more difficult, so I do think that the run is more impressive without the glitch being used, especially since exploiting the glitch takes no skill. Using lookdown, trainshot, warps, trev shot, etc. all take skill, so they are fun to see in a vid.Anyway, take this for what it's worth, coming from a mere elite fanboy  And good luck for anyone crazy enough to try learning 2.3...

[CreepingDeath007]

Quote:if by 'menu screen' you mean the watch, it doesn't say Two-Handed here..

Sorry, I meant the PD menu screen.

Quote:and it still defeats the purpose of speedrunning, as the timer isn't running. if GE had duel, we'd even get 0:00 times  

Well ok, I guess I just have a different opinion but as Wiff said, we already use the cinema scenes to our advantage including G5 where we complete an objective when the timer isn't running (yes, I know that's an intended glitch  ).

Edit: Well actually the objective doesn't complete on G5 in the cinema but it doesn't "complete" on Depot either so... yeah, whatever.