Author Topic: Religion  (Read 21075 times)

vitor

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« Reply #250 on: April 30, 2008, 10:05:00 pm »
"Probably the stupidest thing you've written all topic. "

Yes.

Thiradell

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« Reply #251 on: May 01, 2008, 07:26:00 pm »
Why?

I didn't mean to say that fish evolved straight from rocks, Ryan. It's just a partly analogous way of saying life came from non-life. What you said is dead on, and chemicals randomly coming together to form life has never been observed.
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RWG

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« Reply #252 on: May 01, 2008, 07:42:00 pm »
alright word things better next time. I mean a rock evolving into a fish is pretty insane, I don't think anything other than God could cause such a metamorphosis
"I want to be defined by the things that I love. Not the things I'm afraid of, or the things that haunt me in the middle of the night.  I just think that, you are what you love."  Taylor Swift, Daylight.

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Red Bull

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« Reply #253 on: May 01, 2008, 08:30:00 pm »
"chemicals randomly coming together to form life has never been observed."

REAAAAAAAAAAAD MORE

Thiradell

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« Reply #254 on: May 02, 2008, 11:56:00 am »
Ugh, I can't phrase anything correctly these days. Life has never come from non-life by random chance or focused efforts in laboratories.
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Scrambler Fanny

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« Reply #255 on: May 06, 2008, 02:57:00 am »
BOOYAH! the TRUTH is so simple, why try to make it into something even YOU (unbelievers out there) cant understand? right on thiradell, though i think this topic important, you can only lead a horse to water, etc, etc, etc, or in this case you can only present the TRUTH as God has given it, but you cant MAKE anyone believe in Him. thiradell-i really hope that youre prayin for these cats! wouldnt it be amazing if when we got to heaven we could meet up with some of these guys and glorify Jesus Christ together? that would be so AMAZING!!!


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Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #256 on: May 06, 2008, 03:34:00 am »
Quote from: afanoftherings
...why try to make it into something...
 

hypocrite

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vitor

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« Reply #257 on: May 06, 2008, 06:05:00 am »
Yeah, sure. It makes more sense to believe that something you have never seen, never felt, never anything has created the world/universe/whatever than believe in scientists that did/are doing experiences through years and years making conclusions about our evolution. Of course that they will never show us "here, see this bacteria get along with this little ammount of water. Let's wait a zillion years, then you'll see a human being coming out from it". Ok, they're not 100% sure about it, of course, and they'll never be, but saying that something that the humans created in their minds created the world is, I don't know, ridiculous?

Thiradell

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« Reply #258 on: May 07, 2008, 09:42:00 pm »
Dude, they're not 1% sure about it. There are no proven facts of evolution. And (this is the last time I'm going to say this), design implies a Designer.

Right on, afan. Yeah, I know, God has to soften the hearts of unbelievers before they can even respond to stuff like this. That's what He did for me, and I'll praise Him forever for it.
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Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #259 on: May 08, 2008, 05:28:00 am »
you can call it a design, others might call it a chaos. you're used to daily life and how things work, so obviously it seems logical and as being a design. even if it were, what implies there's only 1 designer? what's with superlativing the first letter of a word?
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Funky-Buddha

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« Reply #260 on: May 08, 2008, 08:11:00 am »
The thing about just assuming there is a designer (of which there are no proven facts of) is that its embracing ignorance. You can believe in God all you want but having the attitude of: "I don't know what it is. I don't know how it works. It's too complicated for me to figure out. It's too complicated for any human being to figure out. So it must be the product of high intelligence." is pretty presumptuous to say the least. Who is anyone to say that just because they can't solve a problem, such as evolution, that neither can anyone else who will ever born? You can't learn anything new about the way the world works by assuming that no one is smart enough to figure out the answer to a problem, thats just promoting a philosophy of obliviousness.

I don't have a problem with people believing in God (except that they're wrong), but I don't want people who could make the next major breakthrough in renewable energy sources, space travel or anything else actually useful, to grow up believing that anything they don't understand, and that nobody yet understands, is divinely contructed and therefore beyond their intellectual capacity.

Jimbo

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« Reply #261 on: May 08, 2008, 12:06:00 pm »
Did afan really just ask Thiradell if he was praying for us? What the fuck could prayer possibly do to a bunch of smart guys who aren't going to let the thought of a silly god sink in to their heads? Waste of prayer time I'd say! Pretend you're driving along the interstate and my semi hits you head on and you die instantly, what do you think is going to happen? It's going to turn black, and stay that way! Why? Because heaven is a fairytale and so is heaven's creator's way of living!

rshepherd1000

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« Reply #262 on: May 09, 2008, 08:40:00 am »
Quote from: Thiradell
The point of my saying that a fish came from a rock is that life evolved from non-life, which has never been scientifically observed. l337, your post implies   that there are many scientific facts that prove evolution. Could you provide one of them?
 

those moths?


Scrambler Fanny

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« Reply #263 on: May 09, 2008, 03:47:00 pm »
Jimbo youre STILL cool! YEAH!


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Thiradell

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« Reply #264 on: May 11, 2008, 01:34:00 pm »
Sorry, Shep, I will clarify. Macroevolution. A fact that proves macroevolution. That is, change outside of species.

Sorry, Wouter. Design implies a designer. How's that? And I'm not going to get into that truth is relative stuff, there is such a thing as order and there is such a thing as chaos, both of which are clearly defined. The world, in terms of nature and things that are non-man-made, is orderly.

Greg, I'm not really saying that since we can't fully understand the world we must assume that there is a God, a higher intelligence. What I'm trying to say is that the world is made to work, down to the smallest detail. The organizations of amino acids to form proteins to form life. The water cycle. A cell, billions (at least) of which comprise living organisms. DNA, with its nucleotide sequences and such. Bacteria have these things called flagellums to move them around, basically like a tail that motorizes them. The design of this microscopic device is fit perfectly together to do its job. The most logical explanation for all of this is that someone designed and created it. Random chance causing all this to happen really seems absurd to me.

Jimbo, heck yes, I'm gonna pray for you. God made the heavens in the beginning (come on, everybody knows that; it's the very first verse), they exist. And...you have a semi?
nothin' moves me more than a groove that soothes me
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nothin' boosts me more, or suits me beautifully
there's nothin' you can do to me; stab me, shoot me

Funky-Buddha

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« Reply #265 on: May 11, 2008, 03:47:00 pm »
"Greg, I'm not really saying that since we can't fully understand the world we must assume that there is a God, a higher intelligence."

Ahem, thats pretty much exactly what is being said. If there was 100% sound proof of evolution - as well as the other cosmic problems - right down to the smallest detail you'd have no reason to believe in God. Instead, you're saying that an absence of sound evidence for evolution (among other things, which btw I completely agree is the case), is evidence of evolutions absence, therefore there is no other "logical" alternative except God.  That is, everything that we currently don't understand is being attributed to a high intelligence, even though it is clouded with the same lack of proof as evolution et al. (Note that written passages of text claiming to be true aren't proof, or else everyone would be believing in completely contradictory things, as well as be believing in every other God ever written about.)

I don't really have any problem with this line of reasoning, even if I don't personally think its the case. My post was made to point out some shortcomings in believing in something too avidly, so that it has the potential to stop progress. Ignorance is obviously the natural state of mind for everyone when we reach the perimeter of our knowledge, but I think there is a significant problem that when people reach this boundary, or even before they do, they are actually taught (read: brainwashed) to attribute all the unknowns to God.

After all, I sincerely doubt that the same God that endowed us with senses, reason and intellect would have intended for us to forgo their use.

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« Reply #266 on: May 11, 2008, 04:19:00 pm »
Nice post Galileo.
"I want to be defined by the things that I love. Not the things I'm afraid of, or the things that haunt me in the middle of the night.  I just think that, you are what you love."  Taylor Swift, Daylight.

【 Verax Maneret 】

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #267 on: May 11, 2008, 10:08:00 pm »
Quote from: Thiradell
Sorry, Wouter. Design implies a designer. How's that? And I'm not going to get into that truth is relative stuff, there is such a thing as order and   there is such a thing as chaos, both of which are clearly defined. The world, in terms of nature and things that are non-man-made, is orderly.
 

you are forgetting that everything that is defined, is so by humans. we made our language, our words, our interpretations. you can see everything as a design, others will see the world as a chaos. once again, I ask, why a designer? why singular?

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Thiradell

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« Reply #268 on: May 12, 2008, 07:26:00 pm »
Okay, design implies that someone (one or more people) designed it. I actually don't think that, I think there are things defined by God. Our language and our words and our interpretations actually do not affect the world at all; the world is still the same. Grass is green (healthy grass, that is), no matter how you "interpret" it.

Okay, Greg, when scientists can't be sure about something, but a theory is asked for, what do they do? They make the best guess they can. Based on my observation of the world, I would say the best guess is that someone designed and created it. I am not saying that that is the only way, and at this point I'm not even trying to convince you of that, I'm just saying it makes the most sense. That's what my senses, reason and intellect tell me, at least.
nothin' moves me more than a groove that soothes me
nothin' soothes me more than a groove that boosts me
nothin' boosts me more, or suits me beautifully
there's nothin' you can do to me; stab me, shoot me

TheGreatMax

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« Reply #269 on: May 13, 2008, 06:37:00 pm »
This topic's still goin'?  Whatever created the universe or whether it created itself is far more powerful than you presumably.  It's not going to give you all the answers at once, nor does it expect any 'one' human on Earth to know its secrets.  We're in a constant state of proving something new I think.

Thiradell

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« Reply #270 on: May 13, 2008, 08:51:00 pm »
That's pretty accurate, actually.
nothin' moves me more than a groove that soothes me
nothin' soothes me more than a groove that boosts me
nothin' boosts me more, or suits me beautifully
there's nothin' you can do to me; stab me, shoot me

SupaOdin

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« Reply #271 on: May 14, 2008, 02:05:00 am »
God is dog backwards

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« Reply #272 on: May 15, 2008, 12:57:00 pm »
God?
God is dead!
I would MUCH rather believe in the idea that the devil created the universe when God wasn't looking.
After all, it's just as pointless to attempt to disprove as any religion is.

I would first like to ask anyone here how ANY observation about the universe could end with the conclusion that it MUST have been created. There is absolutely no logical grounds for making this sort of conclusion based on any empirical evidence.
No, saying, "well, just look at this, it's obvious..." is NOT proof that we MUST have been created, that's just called ignorance.

Thiradell

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« Reply #273 on: May 15, 2008, 08:04:00 pm »
Sure there is, dude. Something incredibly organized and very well put together implies that somebody organized it and put it together. Random chance doesn't do stuff like that.
nothin' moves me more than a groove that soothes me
nothin' soothes me more than a groove that boosts me
nothin' boosts me more, or suits me beautifully
there's nothin' you can do to me; stab me, shoot me

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #274 on: May 15, 2008, 08:25:00 pm »
how about something you just don't know/haven't experienced/can't comprehend? not everything is just straight-forward and solvable by known logic.
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Thiradell

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« Reply #275 on: May 17, 2008, 10:18:00 am »
Also very true.
nothin' moves me more than a groove that soothes me
nothin' soothes me more than a groove that boosts me
nothin' boosts me more, or suits me beautifully
there's nothin' you can do to me; stab me, shoot me

Religion
« Reply #276 on: May 20, 2008, 05:20:00 pm »

Firstly...
"Sure there is, dude. Something incredibly organized and very well put together implies that somebody organized it and put it together. Random chance doesn't do stuff like that."

 

First of all, how do you get off saying that the universe is 'incredibly organized and very well put together?'
For starters, that claim in itself is a subjective statement and a statement of ignorance nonetheless.  At what point does any system become organized or well put together?
You also must not understand probability or possibility very well.  Before us, there was just the universe.  There was no one here to perceive it.  The universe existed, its laws governing all motion (just as it continues to do as we are here to watch it and try to understand it), following some very basic rules and guidelines (none of which we have ever observed to have been broken naturally, which says a lot).  Logically, it would make sense that, given that there are billions of galaxies, with billions of stars and planets in each, existing for billions of years, the likelihood of intelligent life <i>eventually</i> coming to be doesn't seem so bad.
You see, I think the obstacle that is in front of you is that you look at where we are RIGHT NOW and think that it couldn't have happened.  And, in all honestly, you're probably right; but you have to realize that, not more than 20,000 years ago, we were no better than most animals.  This earth that we live on had no buildings, had no cars or airplanes or any of that mess, it was just a planet like any other planet existing in the solar system, which just happened to be one suitable for our types of life.  Again, 20,000 years ago, we were just another species of animal (and we still are today, but we are the only life on this planet that can actually <i>deny</i> that fact), living mainly off of our animal-like instincts, but we developed the ability to communicate.  I think communication was a key to our rapid development.

 

The point is, it has taken thousands of years for all of this (I'm mainly referring to our sudden technological movement, starting as early as the Middle Ages) to happen on earth, and BILLIONS of years for this to happen in our little galaxy.  The odds of something of this nature (the evolution of an intelligent life form) not happening on one of the billion billion  billion planets out there is actually kind of unlikely.

 

And for Wouter...

 

"how about something you just don't know/haven't experienced/can't comprehend? not everything is just straight-forward and solvable by known logic. "

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.  I think you're trying to say we can't know things a priori.  You might want to explain a little more what you're trying to get at.  I'm also sensing that you're questioning the nature of knowledge itself ('how about something you just don't know?')


PDplum

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« Reply #277 on: May 20, 2008, 05:29:00 pm »
Josh good to see you on the boards again. how are things

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« Reply #278 on: May 20, 2008, 05:31:00 pm »
And again, that argument holds absolutely no weight, because it can easily be countered using the SAME argument...

" Something incredibly organized and very well put together implies that somebody organized it and put it together."

Which means that, since condition A (organized/well put together) must only exist through person X (God, in this case) who must necessarily hold that condition A (organized/well put together), then it would logically follow that person X (God, in this case) must exist through this same rule, meaning he (or she) must only exist through another person X, abiding by condition A, and so on and so forth, ad infinitum.

Nonsense.

Edit - Paul, just saw your post.  Yeeeeaaaaah, doing alright.  I just noticed this topic and I figured I'd jump in to get some ideas of what people think here...
How are you?  I see you picked up a controller and played some GE the other day, I've been thinking about doing the same..

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #279 on: May 20, 2008, 06:04:00 pm »
I was simply saying that even if he thinks there's a designer, doesn't mean it has to be fact. it sounds logic to him, so I'm saying that we still lack knowledge and thus logic to solve everything we want to know.

as for playing GE, plan to make videos too? I think you could compete at a decent/good level if you want to.
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PDplum

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« Reply #280 on: May 20, 2008, 06:24:00 pm »
i have never had any ability at an n64 game. if you look at my pd times thats genuinly the peak of my ability so i thought how shit can i really be at ge.. I'm good 7 months of hell and back i got a new job and place. Hows the second worst liar in elites history doing (no offence im the first)

Thiradell

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« Reply #281 on: May 20, 2008, 07:30:00 pm »
Right, Wouter.

NsPD, how do you know all that stuff? How do you know that there are billions of planets and billions of galaxies and that we've been alive for billions of years? How do you know that we developed the ability to communicate at some point, evolving from all other animals? Which is by the way not very accurate, tons of things besides humans can communicate, the differences that humans exhibit is stuff like creativity and the ability to think beyond base desires, hunger, sexual, etc. Also, it sounds like you're questioning the nature of knowledge too, saying that I don't know if something can be organized or not. I believe that God transcends all time and space and anything you or I could understand; I also believe He is eternal and exists outside of time. You may say, "That's absolutely ridiculous and you have no scientific evidence of such a thing." But look at it this way.

I believe: In the beginning, God...
You believe: In the beginning, dirt, chemicals, natural selection, etc...
nothin' moves me more than a groove that soothes me
nothin' soothes me more than a groove that boosts me
nothin' boosts me more, or suits me beautifully
there's nothin' you can do to me; stab me, shoot me

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #282 on: May 20, 2008, 08:01:00 pm »
what beginning? it's endless, never started, will never stop
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RWG

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« Reply #283 on: May 21, 2008, 02:24:00 am »
endless =/= beginningless

Look, beginningless isn't even a word!! It's impossible to have something with no beginning!
"I want to be defined by the things that I love. Not the things I'm afraid of, or the things that haunt me in the middle of the night.  I just think that, you are what you love."  Taylor Swift, Daylight.

【 Verax Maneret 】

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #284 on: May 21, 2008, 05:49:00 am »
maybe your mind can't comprehend it, doesn't mean it can't be possible.

and I didn't say they were the same thing either.
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AEB

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« Reply #285 on: May 21, 2008, 12:50:00 pm »
I'm with Socrates: I know that I know nothing.

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« Reply #286 on: May 21, 2008, 01:16:00 pm »
Alright, let's get down to business...
From the beginning...
'NsPD, how do you know all that stuff? How do you know that there are billions of planets and billions of galaxies and that we've been alive for billions of years?'
I personally don't know all of this. But scientists, in their respected fields, have been able to figure out a lot about our universe through observation and then deductive reasoning. To simply observe that our situation is rather improbable and then jump to the conclusion that it must have been created through the means of something which defies all logic sounds to me a bit like a hasty generalization.

'How do you know that we developed the ability to communicate at some point, evolving from all other animals?'
Again, I can't personally know this. The facts add up pretty well; there is rather incriminating evidence for the necessity of natural selection which is a governing proponent of all of the universe.

'Which is by the way not very accurate, tons of things besides humans can communicate, the differences that humans exhibit is stuff like creativity and the ability to think beyond base desires, hunger, sexual, etc.'
I guess I should have been a little more clear on that. We have what is called the imagination. Humans also have a further developed sense of causal cognition, a part of what makes us believe as well as creates the illusion of 'understanding.'

'Also, it sounds like you're questioning the nature of knowledge too, saying that I don't know if something can be organized or not. I believe that God transcends all time and space and anything you or I could understand; I also believe He is eternal and exists outside of time.'
I'm not questioning the nature of knowledge (a topic which we could go on for a while about); I'm simply pointing out that an observation made by an individual that claims organization or any sort of order found within chaos is making just that; a claim. It's an abstract idea, created within the confines of the imagination, the imagination only something which people possess. That would be why an animal would not be able to even conceive of a creator, or venture down the thought path of how it or anything around it came to be. The imagination itself is partially responsible for the idea of a god, as well as the idea of the necessity of a god (although this, I'm sure, stems from other causes moreso than just the imagination, it only being a manifold, a necessary part in the creation of our idea of necessity).
Again, I wasn't attempting to question the nature of knowledge; the subject of epistemology could go on forever. I was making a point that such observations (the organization of a system) are only subjections, not objections, and therefore are altogether meaningless, and therefore it would follow that any attempt to assign a cause to this is as good as trying to give reason to why you like the color red or why I like the taste of chocolate.

' You may say, "That's absolutely ridiculous and you have no scientific evidence of such a thing." But look at it this way.

I believe: In the beginning, God...
You believe: In the beginning, dirt, chemicals, natural selection, etc... '

I suppose, but I would say my belief is a bit more justified. For starters, when there is a flaw found within my reasoning, (say, new evidence is found supporting a new claim), then my beliefs change to fit that which is more reasonable. I look at the new evidence, I look at the old evidence, and I attempt to use my reasoning to understand the contradictions within the situation and eventually reason will prevail. The religious way is to attempt to 'patch up' that flaw, to cover it with god's tracks, by simply fitting god's (UNKNOWABLE) nature to fit the situation. This causes many contradictions within many religions to the point of embarrassment, I would say.

SupaOdin

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« Reply #287 on: May 22, 2008, 04:45:00 am »
Too long, didn't read.

Grags

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« Reply #288 on: May 22, 2008, 05:31:00 am »

Ok, I've only glanced at a few comments in this topic, just in case I go over something someone else had already said.

 

Ok IMO there HAS to be some sort of creator, whether it is god, or something us humans haven't got the brain capacity to understand. Just look at the world with an open mind, it's not hard to see that this didn't all happen just by chance. Sure evolution has its theory, but its theory is flawed. Apparently we all came from monkeys? Yet they have never found an in-between.  They have bones of a monkey and bones of a man, but no in-between. Same for a chicken, cow etc.

 

Personally I believe the bible was written by some incredibly intelligent people, taking star signs to a different level. I mean you ask any Religious group to read you any scripture from the bible. To most people it sounds like twaddle. But once they explain THEIR belief on the scripture it makes a little sense. But if other religions read the same scripture they could explain their beliefs on it completely different but their version could make sense too.


Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #289 on: May 22, 2008, 07:56:00 am »
Quote from: Gragz

this didn't all happen just by chance.

 

eh, if it 'happened', it was created and thus has a creator. maybe it always already WAS, don't try to understand when you can't



 

many things sound intelligent to the less intelligent...

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Grags

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« Reply #290 on: May 22, 2008, 08:22:00 am »

I think you've completely misunderstood my point. Because your comment makes no sense to me whatsoever.


Religion
« Reply #291 on: May 22, 2008, 04:39:00 pm »
Wouter is saying that you're implying there was a 'happening,' some cause for this existence.  He's merely trying to point out the fact that it's a very real possibility that this universe just is.  And again, believers miss the point entirely; they claim the universe could not have possibly come about by chance, so they assign a creator.  The only problem is, this creator is even MORE unbelievable; not only did it create something that is almost unbelievable, but the creator itself cannot be seen, spoken to, understood, and is entirely outside of this time and space and logic.  Oh, and it, in some religions, sometimes listens to our prayers (yet will watch happy, innocent people die).

Now how does THAT make sense?


That's called filling in the holes.  I mean, realistically, even when we talk about the universe, we should realize that even assuming it was created is going against Occam's razor.  And further again, assuming this God is even still around is going against Occam's razor.  Realistically, if I were to believe that this universe was created, I would honestly believe one of three things, given the observations I personally have witnessed:

1) God is dead.  Most religions claim God is immortal, so this would make no sense to them.

2) God is no longer watching over the universe; or rather, at least our portion of it.  He has turned his back on it for whatever reason.  Maybe to go off and watch a different galaxy.  Most religions claim God is all-knowing, so this wouldn't make sense either.

3)  The devil created the universe while God wasn't looking.  After all, why is there evil?  Really?  And why does God continue to let it happen?

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« Reply #292 on: May 22, 2008, 04:53:00 pm »
is it me or do 95% of wouters comments make no sense to ANYONE? no offense, wouter, but i struggle to grasp what you say almost always thiradell-you da man!!! i love it!!! you keep on representing The Truth and The Truth will work His power


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Religion
« Reply #293 on: May 22, 2008, 04:57:00 pm »
What exactly is 'His power?'
Give me an example of what it is.
I've never seen it.

Wouter Jansen

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Religion
« Reply #294 on: May 22, 2008, 05:09:00 pm »
not understanding me proves that its pointless to argue with you since you try to tell me I'm wrong when you don't even know what I'm saying. appearantly I'm out of your league and I can see why you think the way you do.. my posts aren't that difficult, it's mostly simple logic.
sexy, this

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Religion
« Reply #295 on: May 22, 2008, 05:26:00 pm »
NSPD wrote:
Quote
What exactly is 'His power?'  
  Give me an example of what it is.  
  I've never seen it.
Everything that happens in the world can be considered "his power."

You have to realize that God is not some guy in the sky.  God is not a being in a human sense.  God is more of a force.  He (or it, whatever you want to call it) controls everything that happens in the universe.  Whether you believe that it's all some man who has predestined our lives, well good.  But you can also believe something like "ohh, I think we can do whatever we want and nothing is there to control us."  If you believe in this sense, then "God" is "whatever allows us to do whatever we want with nothing there to control us."

No matter what you believe in, there is some definition of God that fits to you, and this is why God is eternal and ubiquitous.
"I want to be defined by the things that I love. Not the things I'm afraid of, or the things that haunt me in the middle of the night.  I just think that, you are what you love."  Taylor Swift, Daylight.

【 Verax Maneret 】

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #296 on: May 22, 2008, 07:58:00 pm »
the only thing that calls it god is religion, science would give some force of nature a more fitting name.
sexy, this

RWG

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« Reply #297 on: May 22, 2008, 08:10:00 pm »
God isn't good enough? Maybe you're just a homosexual.
"I want to be defined by the things that I love. Not the things I'm afraid of, or the things that haunt me in the middle of the night.  I just think that, you are what you love."  Taylor Swift, Daylight.

【 Verax Maneret 】

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« Reply #298 on: May 22, 2008, 08:11:00 pm »
though your dog is fucking cute
"I want to be defined by the things that I love. Not the things I'm afraid of, or the things that haunt me in the middle of the night.  I just think that, you are what you love."  Taylor Swift, Daylight.

【 Verax Maneret 】

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« Reply #299 on: May 22, 2008, 08:17:00 pm »
Ooh, Ryan, God indeed had no beginning. That'll send your head in a whirl.

NsPD, I believe the order of a structure is an objective thing that can be correctly stated. When a human eats something, their teeth break it down into digestible parts. It's swallowed through the esophagus, which pushes the food down to help dislodge pieces that would potentially be too large otherwise. It then falls into the stomach, where acids break it down and it enters the small intestine. Villi absorb the nutrients and useful parts of what we eat, while the rest continues into the large intestine where it is broken down into fecal matter expelled as waste. This is a very simple analysis of digestion, operated by trillions of cells all working in coordination to do this. There is such a thing as order, and the human body is an excellent example.

"To simply observe that our situation is rather improbable and then jump to the conclusion that it must have been STOP RIGHT THERE I NEVER SAID THAT I ONLY SAID IT'S THE MOST LIKELY THNG created through the means of something which defies all logic sounds to me a bit like a hasty generalization."

Could you provide some "old evidence" for evolution, by the way? I've seen nothing of the sort.
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