Author Topic: Religion  (Read 21074 times)

Scrambler Fanny

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« Reply #300 on: May 22, 2008, 10:46:00 pm »
yeah wouter...your doggie is pretty danged cute


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Grags

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« Reply #301 on: May 23, 2008, 01:20:00 am »

I don't believe in the bible and I don't believe we came from the sea either. I have no idea why we are here; neither does any man/woman on this planet. But it's fun to discuss the possibilities.


Scrambler Fanny

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« Reply #302 on: May 23, 2008, 04:06:00 am »
ich bin ein glaubiger!


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Soft-Hedwig

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« Reply #303 on: May 23, 2008, 05:30:00 am »
"Apparently we all came from monkeys? Yet they have never found an in-between. They have bones of a monkey and bones of a man, but no in-between. Same for a chicken, cow etc."

lmao @ this.

Grags

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« Reply #304 on: May 23, 2008, 06:58:00 am »
Sarcasm on*

Yes, I can see why your laughing. That's hilarious.  No sense in my comment whatsoever. haha so funny!

Sarcasm off*

AEB

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« Reply #305 on: May 23, 2008, 07:13:00 am »
What anyone believe in is pointless. Tell me when you know. I personally believe that no one in our world can say they know anything. I can't be sure that I'm actually here now. I personally think that you can only believe, and that's it. If you guys have seen god (I haven't, so far) I can't tell you that you're wrong, because I don't KNOW it, and probably (again, I can't know for sure it won't happen) never will!

Red Bull

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« Reply #306 on: May 23, 2008, 08:17:00 am »
I'm kind of sure you are acting weird.

Soft-Hedwig

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« Reply #307 on: May 23, 2008, 09:34:00 am »
Graham's logic is sound. There has been no observed stage between apes and humans whatsoever, contrary to what scientists have observed and proved. And the two completely non-analagous examples of cow and chicken fit right into his argument, as well as being the name of a popular TV show. Best argument ever.

Grags

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« Reply #308 on: May 23, 2008, 10:42:00 am »

There HAVEN'T been any in-betweens only Ramapithecus which was made by man. Neanderthals were just like normal people only they had flat noses, your stereotypical caveman.


Scrambler Fanny

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« Reply #309 on: May 23, 2008, 06:42:00 pm »
ROFL @ Red Bull!!! Ha Ha!!!


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RWG

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« Reply #310 on: May 23, 2008, 06:58:00 pm »
A FAN A FAN

OF THE RINGS OF THE RINGS

A FAN A FAN

OF THE RINGS OF THE RINGS

A FAN OF THE RINGS

A FAN OF THE RINGS

A FAN, A FAN, A FAN OF THE RINGS


GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO AFOTR!
"I want to be defined by the things that I love. Not the things I'm afraid of, or the things that haunt me in the middle of the night.  I just think that, you are what you love."  Taylor Swift, Daylight.

【 Verax Maneret 】

Thiradell

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« Reply #311 on: May 23, 2008, 08:04:00 pm »
Well, Stefan, if you can't know anything, how can you know that you can't know anything? We can know stuff.
nothin' moves me more than a groove that soothes me
nothin' soothes me more than a groove that boosts me
nothin' boosts me more, or suits me beautifully
there's nothin' you can do to me; stab me, shoot me

Carathorn

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« Reply #312 on: May 23, 2008, 08:31:00 pm »
Here's my logic.

Remember the ball that falls through the wooden plate with nails? Every time the ball comes down in a different way and takes a different path downwards. Its random.

Well..not completely. Minor differences in wind changes, gravity, and other enviromental aspects will affect it, yes, but we call it "random". if there wasnt a single aspect to influence it, the ball woudnt even move, or stay put on the absolute top of the first nail. Or even better: there woudnt have been a ball at all.

My opinion is, there is no such thing as complete randomness. It doesnt exist. Everything in this world has a reason for it to happen one way or another.

But here comes the problem! the reason for sóme things to happen however, we can't explain. And that is where the word "believe" comes in. You "believe" that "this unexplainable event X " happened because of [ solution A] or [ solution B].

That is also why it's an endless discussion. The unexplainable. Some people call it Religion/God, some people call it "where sience hasnt come yet".  Because Science or God, they are both believes about the unexplainable.

However, the only "advantage" science has over religion is that it's flexible. For example: We say that there is "literally nothing" between molecules. If some guy shows up with a research saying "look through this gigantic microscope showing there are little smurfs in between!" then we say "well...ok...f*ck it, smurfs it is then."

And there comes my last point. Why is there no Religion with a theory contradicting any proven scientific thing? It sounds weird and suspicious to me that the church changed its intrepetation of "the creation of the universe" after people discovered the earth is nothing like the centre of the universe. I am afraid that the future will only continue to bring down Religious fundaments by new scientific proof.

However, If scientific proof will be presented that has the conclusion that there is zero possibility of us people going to heaven or hell, because "sciencewise" there is no chance of it existing, it probably woudnt convince ONE believer in God to think different I guess. And that's weird to me as well, given the fact that Christian Fundaments (like God/Heaven/etc) are mostly based on things that havent been proven yet.

Conclusion
In my opinion, Religions like Christianity fit "just a bit to good" in the situation of "what we don't know yet". As history has shown us before....Egytians also tent to believe that the Pharaoh was send by the gods and therefor it was invincible. Well, I think that we can all agree on that beeing not true. But back then, people coudn't prove it wasnt true at all. It was "unexplainable" at that time and therefore "a believe". Why wouldnt Christianity have the same fate, if all other old believes have been proven to be not possible?

I think you understand by now that I personally don't believe in God. But let me finish this post by saying I truly admire Religion in general, how it brings people together. It remains a beautiful concept.




Thiradell

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« Reply #313 on: May 24, 2008, 10:09:00 am »
Good post, Cara. Thought out, rational, pretty good. The only thing I don't understand is you saying the church changed its interpretation of the creation of the universe because the earth isn't the center of the galaxy. I don't remember anything like this happening...what are you referring to?

And now I'm going to go one step further and say that that something must have created this world. I will now say that it is the only logical explanation for the universe we see. I think a wise Designer shaping and crafting the world we live in is evidenced greatly by the incredible order and beauty of things. Look at a computer, you think: "Wow, the guy who invented this must've been a genius." Look at the world, why would you think anything different?
nothin' moves me more than a groove that soothes me
nothin' soothes me more than a groove that boosts me
nothin' boosts me more, or suits me beautifully
there's nothin' you can do to me; stab me, shoot me

Carathorn

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« Reply #314 on: May 24, 2008, 12:48:00 pm »
The reason why this world and why humans seem so "perfectly designed" can be because of a design, but also because of complete chaos. It depends whatever you believe. There is simply NO truth yet.

I believe in chaos, and with that I mean: Those things look designed, but that is only because we live and fit in this world so well because of the evolution. From our perspective as human beings, our frame of reference it indeed looks like it is designed but for me...its just another coincidence because of that story with the ball and the nails.

Now this world "being designed" or "became this way because of evolution", we won't know it until the truth will come out somehow. Until then, we can discuss it, but there is no point in it since it is an endless discussion.

I place some bigass question marks by the story of it being designed though. This universe simply isnt perfect. There is violence everywhere, look at the universe itself. Black holes, enormous comets that destroy entire planets when striking it, etc etc. On micro level, humans in this earth tent to kill and hurt each other, etc etc. íf this universe was designed then I have to say it/he/she made some major mistakes.

edit: what would you say if someone discovered live on another planet btw? The bible says nothing about it so I suggest you don't think there is live on other planets?

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #315 on: May 24, 2008, 02:39:00 pm »
you should go travel with your "tent"
sexy, this

Carathorn

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« Reply #316 on: May 24, 2008, 03:12:00 pm »
is this how you got your 1234092873402836023 posts?

man what a life you must have

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #317 on: May 24, 2008, 05:08:00 pm »
define life
sexy, this

Red Bull

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« Reply #318 on: May 24, 2008, 05:39:00 pm »
define define

RWG

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« Reply #319 on: May 24, 2008, 06:59:00 pm »
well... define Chris.
"I want to be defined by the things that I love. Not the things I'm afraid of, or the things that haunt me in the middle of the night.  I just think that, you are what you love."  Taylor Swift, Daylight.

【 Verax Maneret 】

Scrambler Fanny

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« Reply #320 on: May 24, 2008, 10:21:00 pm »
Red Bull youre sick!!! You be makin a brotha laugh to hard-i be wettin myself!!! HAHAHAHAHA-Red Bull said "define define" who is this Red Bull? HAHA


"And I mean, I'm the GE champ.  Did you actually expect I would have a normal relationship?" -David Clemens

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« Reply #321 on: May 25, 2008, 03:27:00 pm »
Alright...this could take a while...

"NsPD, I believe the order of a structure is an objective thing that can be correctly stated. When a human eats something, their teeth break it down into digestible parts. It's swallowed through the esophagus, which pushes the food down to help dislodge pieces that would potentially be too large otherwise. It then falls into the stomach, where acids break it down and it enters the small intestine. Villi absorb the nutrients and useful parts of what we eat, while the rest continues into the large intestine where it is broken down into fecal matter expelled as waste. This is a very simple analysis of digestion, operated by trillions of cells all working in coordination to do this. There is such a thing as order, and the human body is an excellent example."

Great job giving a brief run down of digestion. Now, using the same argument as before, because this process seems organized within a system of chaos, does digestion necessarily prove that we MUST have been created?


"To simply observe that our situation is rather improbable and then jump to the conclusion that it must have been STOP RIGHT THERE I NEVER SAID THAT I ONLY SAID IT'S THE MOST LIKELY THNG created through the means of something which defies all logic sounds to me a bit like a hasty generalization."

Alright...I'm not following your logic. You're saying that we live in this big crazy universe, whose origins may very well be unexplainable (but at the same time possibly can be), so the most likely thing is to assign a creator as the answer and say it is entirely outside of anything we can imagine (not within our time, space, logic, and its nature is unable to be known). How is THAT more likely than any scientific explanation we may come up with?

And lastly...
"Could you provide some "old evidence" for evolution, by the way? I've seen nothing of the sort. "
I'm not really going to get into the evidence for or against evolution. Evolution itself may or may not exist, but nonetheless, it has nothing to do with the creation of the universe.

Religion
« Reply #322 on: May 25, 2008, 03:34:00 pm »
And, a question for you (or anyone)...
Now, you gave a pretty good analysis of the basic digestive system operation. You even concluded with the fact that it is operated by trillions of cells, all working in coordination.

A few things...
Can you control ANY of these cells? They just operate accordingly, correct?
What about the nervous system? What about thought? Is not thought a similar process? Thought is something in which we believe we have control over, but at what point do we gain control? Do we control our minds, or do our minds control us?

Red Bull

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« Reply #323 on: May 25, 2008, 03:39:00 pm »
"Do we control our minds, or do our minds control us?"

I don't know. All I know is the U.S. is trying to mind control some people.

Religion
« Reply #324 on: May 25, 2008, 05:43:00 pm »

Quite possibly, but that's not the point I'm trying to get at.
I'm trying to get at the fact that we are a series of chemical reactions, and our imagination consequently creates the illusion that we are able to make choices.

Studies were done where patients were hooked up to a machine that monitered activity within the brain as well as muscles within the arms.  When asked to press a button with their left hand, it was recorded that patients were receiving signals to the brain from the muscles seconds before the actual thought was even formed.  The point is that we simply respond to stimuli.  We have no ultimate control over our actions.  Sounds weird.


I'm kind of looking to get into the topic of free will, and god's role in our actions.

SupaOdin

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« Reply #325 on: May 25, 2008, 11:35:00 pm »
afanoftherings, your avatar scares me.

Religion
« Reply #326 on: May 26, 2008, 06:31:00 am »
Ohh, I thought this was a serious topic for a minute...never mind.

Scrambler Fanny

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« Reply #327 on: May 26, 2008, 04:38:00 pm »
ah dont worry about my avatar, its nice once you get to know it. its just me screwin around with photobooth on my mac. its me with a special effect thrown in to pinch my face towards the middle of the screen. didnt mean to frighten anybody


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Thiradell

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« Reply #328 on: May 26, 2008, 06:20:00 pm »
It is a serious topic. In its essence. Somewhere, down deep. I promise! I actually think that a great God that we cannot comprehend creating the universe is very likely because the order and magnitude of the universe is far beyond anything mankind has done, and it follows that God is far beyond us.

The discussion of God's role in our actions...that's a tough one. Somebody throws a ball to you, you can choose whether or not to catch it (unless you suck at catching). Somebody tells you something, you can choose whether or not to believe it. Different people can respond differently (and even one person can respond in different ways at different times) to the same stimuli.
nothin' moves me more than a groove that soothes me
nothin' soothes me more than a groove that boosts me
nothin' boosts me more, or suits me beautifully
there's nothin' you can do to me; stab me, shoot me

Religion
« Reply #329 on: May 26, 2008, 08:16:00 pm »
 
   
      "I actually think that a great God that we cannot comprehend creating the universe is very likely because the order and magnitude of the universe is       far beyond anything mankind has done, and it follows that God is far beyond us. "      
      There's a flaw in that logic.  First off, we should be a bit more precise in using the term 'order.'  It's best to designate that       expression to point to the laws of the universe specifically (because they are the only instance in which we can assign our subjective idea of order to       realistically), not to the universe as an object.  The universe itself is just a series of happenings that are a result of these laws (thermodynamics,       gravity, etc. etc.).      
      Now, your reasoning is flawed because you are affirming the consequent:      
     
      If God created the universe, then he is far beyond us.      
      God is far beyond us (by definition)      
      Therefore, God created the universe.      
     
      This is a formal fallacy of the form [if A, then B; B, therefore A].      
      Even though your premises may be true (God may have created the universe, and he may be far beyond us), you fail to provide any good reason to believe       so.      
     
     
      "The discussion of God's role in our actions...that's a tough one. Somebody throws a ball to you, you can choose whether or not to catch it       (unless you suck at catching). Somebody tells you something, you can choose whether or not to believe it. Different people can respond differently (and       even one person can respond in different ways at different times) to the same stimuli."      
     
      The reality of the situation is that we have the illusion of choice; because we perceive, because we understand what choices are, it feels as though we       are making choices.  But again, I say, at what point does a choice begin?  At what point within the thought process do we actually control our choices?        Our choices are based off of our experiences and tastes (tastes being shaped by experiences as well).  Let me ask you this:  Do you choose what you like       or dislike?  Do you choose what pleases you and what displeases you?    
 

Scrambler Fanny

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« Reply #330 on: May 27, 2008, 03:15:00 am »
God is VERY creative and He has designed us in such a way that reflects His unsearchable creativity, i.e. likes, pleasures, etc. He MUST be enormous to make billions and billions of people through out time all desire and like different things! btw i like salmon!! yo thiradell are you a bible student? you are pretty thorough and solid every time you post in this subject...love ya bro


"And I mean, I'm the GE champ.  Did you actually expect I would have a normal relationship?" -David Clemens

Red Bull

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« Reply #331 on: May 27, 2008, 01:52:00 pm »
Arguing about religion is one big laugh!

If a statement like "God exists" can in no way be observed or researched, then it doesn't have any meaning. The phrase "God exists" is the typical example of a non-sensical statement. It's not empirically possible to test in any case, so why argue about it?

Thiradell

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« Reply #332 on: May 27, 2008, 09:29:00 pm »
Test the existence of numbers, RB. The physical, real existence of numbers.

afan is right on with his post. I am a student, I study it and try to learn from my peers/teachers as best I can. I love you too, man; seriously. Nice to have someone by my side in this topic.

NsPD, there should be something in that syllogism (sp) about the universe and the way it works being far beyond us. I'm not necessarily talking about likes/dislikes (food, music, sports, etc.); I'm talking about the most basic, barebones choice. Like, catching a ball or letting it fall.

A ball is thrown to me. I can:
Catch (or at least make an effort to catch) it.
Let it fall.

I can do either of these at any time whenever I want.
nothin' moves me more than a groove that soothes me
nothin' soothes me more than a groove that boosts me
nothin' boosts me more, or suits me beautifully
there's nothin' you can do to me; stab me, shoot me

Scrambler Fanny

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« Reply #333 on: May 28, 2008, 12:00:00 am »
Thiradell you're a frickin stud! May your crops grow to feed everyone on the planet-and may you're seeds find fertile soil! You're AWESOME! btw you REALLY need an avatar!


"And I mean, I'm the GE champ.  Did you actually expect I would have a normal relationship?" -David Clemens

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #334 on: May 28, 2008, 08:01:00 am »
maybe, but you really need NOT to have one.

thi, look in the phone book
sexy, this

Red Bull

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« Reply #335 on: May 28, 2008, 08:22:00 am »
Thiradell, what are you talking about, test the numbers? Do you even know what I mean?

Thiradell

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« Reply #336 on: May 28, 2008, 08:25:00 pm »
Yeah, that was a stretch to say what I did, I won't try to explain it further. Hmm...how about the phrase, "20 billion years ago, a packed mass of clouds and dust exploded, and so the evolution of all we see before us today began." Could that be tested?
nothin' moves me more than a groove that soothes me
nothin' soothes me more than a groove that boosts me
nothin' boosts me more, or suits me beautifully
there's nothin' you can do to me; stab me, shoot me

Religion
« Reply #337 on: May 28, 2008, 10:30:00 pm »
Thiradell:

"NsPD, there should be something in that syllogism (sp) about the universe and the way it works being far beyond us. I'm not necessarily talking about likes/dislikes (food, music, sports, etc.); I'm talking about the most basic, barebones choice. Like, catching a ball or letting it fall.

A ball is thrown to me. I can:
Catch (or at least make an effort to catch) it.
Let it fall.

I can do either of these at any time whenever I want "

First off, your 'syllogism' (which is just a fancy word for a conclusion based off of deductive reasoning: [All A is C; All B is A; therefore, all C is B]) is no syllogism at all.  You provide no support for the claim that god must necessarily be far beyond us, and you provide no evidence for the hastily-received conclusion that God created the universe.
And even if you throw the universe and its components into the mix, you have to find some reasoning connecting the totality of the universe with the nature of god itself.  We can talk all day about how the laws of the universe operate precisely and without regards, but we have yet to understand the nature of these laws themselves.  There is, at this point, no logical way to jump from any observation about the universe to a conclusion concerning its method of creation.

Well, I turned 21 today so I really shouldn't be wasting my time with this right now, but I'll tell you that I will get back to discuss free will soon.  Later.

Scrambler Fanny

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« Reply #338 on: May 29, 2008, 01:53:00 am »
Happy 21st NsPD! Be safe and smart brother!


"And I mean, I'm the GE champ.  Did you actually expect I would have a normal relationship?" -David Clemens

TheGreatMax

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« Reply #339 on: May 29, 2008, 06:42:00 pm »
I've already established that both religious and non-religious people lie, steal, commit violence, etc.,.  Yes, maybe you think different because of your belief but does that mean you're more important?

Keep debating this if you have nothing else better to do.

Thiradell

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« Reply #340 on: May 29, 2008, 08:39:00 pm »
No, I agree, GreatMax. But Jesus died on the cross to take away the punishment for those sins; to justly forgive us. That's why I love God so much.

NsPD, I'm just saying that the incredible, over-our-heads complexity of the universe makes the theory of a God we can never truly understand or fully know creating that universe much more plausible. Happy Birthday!
nothin' moves me more than a groove that soothes me
nothin' soothes me more than a groove that boosts me
nothin' boosts me more, or suits me beautifully
there's nothin' you can do to me; stab me, shoot me

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« Reply #341 on: May 30, 2008, 03:12:00 am »
Quote from: Thiradell
NsPD, I'm just saying that the incredible, over-our-heads complexity of the universe makes the theory of a God we can never truly understand or fully   know  
  creating that universe much more plausible.
 



So god created the UNIVERSE. You know how big that is? Let's say that the universe is infinite, then there would be infinite versions of the-elite with another me, Wouter, Thiradell, Max and NsPD somewhere in it. He created Earth but there are other planets aswell, and other solarsystems. So can god judge animals aswell? Why didn't he like the dinosaurs? So does god control other lives in other parts of the universe that we don't even know exists yet? And what about the conscious? Let's say you had none, that is a scary thought because if you don't exist then nothing else exists, therefore life is simply unnecessary. Thinking of the universe and how big it is and how small and unnecessary we are I cannot believe there is a god.
"Wappayuuuu" - Cara

Wouter Jansen

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« Reply #342 on: May 30, 2008, 03:58:00 am »
well, you could define it in a better way though! all the hot girls! they're SO DAMN HOT I FUCKING LOVE (FUCKING) THEM I WILL CALL THEM GOD FROM NOW ON

OH my GOD yuo were SO GOOD in BED with DIN MOR (and myself) last NIGHT
sexy, this

PerfectTaste

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« Reply #343 on: May 30, 2008, 04:03:00 am »
rofl hahaha
"Wappayuuuu" - Cara

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« Reply #344 on: May 30, 2008, 04:35:00 am »
hey Wouter, you could try being mature once in a while.
"I want to be defined by the things that I love. Not the things I'm afraid of, or the things that haunt me in the middle of the night.  I just think that, you are what you love."  Taylor Swift, Daylight.

【 Verax Maneret 】

RWG

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« Reply #345 on: September 03, 2008, 04:09:00 pm »
so we live for God and then when we die we will have even more... why doesn't everyone just die then?
"I want to be defined by the things that I love. Not the things I'm afraid of, or the things that haunt me in the middle of the night.  I just think that, you are what you love."  Taylor Swift, Daylight.

【 Verax Maneret 】

Scrambler Fanny

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« Reply #346 on: September 03, 2008, 04:11:00 pm »
we are given a decision to LIVE for Him and He will reward us by our faith


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« Reply #347 on: September 03, 2008, 04:12:00 pm »
but if all it takes is faith then why not drink and sex and swear and be pretty much useless our whole lives?? As long as you believe in the Lord and thank him for your life he will reward you!
"I want to be defined by the things that I love. Not the things I'm afraid of, or the things that haunt me in the middle of the night.  I just think that, you are what you love."  Taylor Swift, Daylight.

【 Verax Maneret 】

Scrambler Fanny

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« Reply #348 on: September 03, 2008, 04:14:00 pm »
because LIVING for Him means that you put away all of the lewdness and corruption and bring love to your brother and by this you are showing your love for God and displaying your faith


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« Reply #349 on: September 03, 2008, 04:15:00 pm »
but I do love God and have faith in God and whenever I'm happy I thank God and whenever I'm down I pray to God. My actions might be sinful but my spirit is not!
"I want to be defined by the things that I love. Not the things I'm afraid of, or the things that haunt me in the middle of the night.  I just think that, you are what you love."  Taylor Swift, Daylight.

【 Verax Maneret 】