Author Topic: Everything you ever wanted to know about hostages? (Read 3178 times)

Wyst3r · « **on:** March 15, 2009, 02:41:00 pm »

Okay so in preparation of my upcoming TAS of Frigate i made some investigations. We already know how hostages work but here's a little more detailed results.

For those of you who don't remember my previous posts about this, hostages have a number of predetermined Escape Points where they can escape. Which point they will run towards is determined just as they are released. The route they will use to get to this point is also constant. Each hostage has 6 Escape Points, except bridge hostage, which has 7. Here's an overview of these points:

Hostage #1(First Agent Hostage):

Optimal escape point: #2

Fastest escape time: 9.2 seconds

Hostage #2(Second Agent Hostage):

Optimal escape point: #2

Fastest escape time: 7.2 seconds

Hostage #3(Bridge Hostage):

Optimal Escape Point: #7

Fastest escape time: 6.15 seconds

Hostage #4(Engine Hostage):

Optimal Escape Point: #2

Fastest escape time: 29.25 seconds

Hostage #5(First 00A Hostage):

Optimal Escape Point: #2

Fastest escape time: 22.8 seconds

--------------------------------------------

I didn't bother with the slow hostage since we'll never need to use him. He follows same route as engine hostage just that he has to run to engine hostages starting position first, meaning he'll never be faster. Anyway, my hopes for this is basicly to help in further strat development. So if someone finds any use for it then awesome

Lovins · « **Reply #1 on:** March 15, 2009, 02:46:00 pm »

That is very useful actually, now I can figure out if my sub-1:20 LTK strat is possible or not which I've never been sure of since I use the slow hostage.

RWG · « **Reply #2 on:** March 15, 2009, 02:52:00 pm »

SHIT JUST GOT REAL.

Will read after the hockey game!

Cervone · « **Reply #3 on:** March 15, 2009, 05:24:00 pm »

Very nice, Henrik, thank you.

How did you test for the escape times? Any insight you can give to the variability of the escape times given the optimum route (in other words, when hostages escape via their optimum escape points, how often do they get there as quickly as possible instead of getting stuck on stuff)?

Wyst3r · « **Reply #4 on:** March 15, 2009, 05:30:00 pm »

Invisibility, killed all guards who weren't takers, then released hostages and made sure they didn't get stuck on anything. Note: Doors closed so they did open those.

Narigutita · « **Reply #5 on:** March 15, 2009, 08:47:00 pm »

so, for speedrunning A for example
its 1/6*1/6 for the optimal routes? any change they escape fast enough with any other route than the best one?

1/36 doesn't seem as bad as the real trying for fast times on A, i think the death animation of the guy guarding the hostage count too? what else counts?

RWG · « **Reply #6 on:** March 15, 2009, 09:11:00 pm »

Nari, the odds are 1/36 that they will choose the right exit. The odds that they get there fast, without getting blocked by anyone or anything make it even less.

RK · « **Reply #7 on:** March 15, 2009, 10:21:00 pm »

Some very nice research there, Henrik.

Sort of.. changes the way I 'hope for things to go right' when I play Frigay Agent.

vitor · « **Reply #8 on:** March 15, 2009, 11:44:00 pm »

So, if you make less noise or something (like 2 quick headshots with one shot each), chances that they will not get stuck are higher? Since that it wouldn't attract guards from the other rooms etc. Obviously death animation counts a lot.. btw, you could do a research to see what death animations you get when you shoot each place of the guard's body. So you can notice stuff like, you have more optimal animations shooting 2 bullets on their body instead of doing 1 headshot, stuff like that.

Wyst3r · « **Reply #9 on:** March 16, 2009, 04:33:00 am »

I'd say the chair is the biggest obstacle for Agent. It's at least 50/50 chance of stuckage there. I guess for 23 somewhat quick deaths are necessary. I'm not sure how much attracted guards matter.. But all in all these things add up to alot less than 1/36 which would seem correct.

Pretty useless information here but it seems that exit point 5 and 6 doesn't work as escape points for many of the hostages. If those points are chosen, they simply run there and then chose one of the other exit points. This is the case for Bridge host and engine area hosts but i dunno about the Agent ones. Also i noticed the Bridge hostage has only the one fast exit point, i.e #7. Any other point is VERY slow. He is actually running back to the agent hostages and takes the same route as them. So yeah, bridge guy can really screw up a run if unlucky.

Jack · « **Reply #10 on:** March 17, 2009, 11:42:00 pm »

Hah, then ideally the 54's and 55's we were failing way back when should be feasable. Nice.

RWG · « **Reply #11 on:** March 18, 2009, 12:23:00 am »

Oh yeah Henrik. Can you tell us how to get the hostages to escape? Which angles and directions of looking are best to get certain hostages to escape?

Wyst3r · « **Reply #12 on:** March 18, 2009, 02:03:00 am »

There are none Ryan. It's diffrent every run. So console doesn't stand a chance in any form of manipulation.

RWG · « **Reply #13 on:** March 18, 2009, 02:37:00 am »

Ok but what patterns have you noticed? I don't care if console doesn't stand a chance. I'm doing it anyways.

Narigutita · « **Reply #14 on:** March 18, 2009, 06:36:00 am »

no you won't, you're retiring!

Wyst3r · « **Reply #15 on:** March 18, 2009, 10:24:00 am »

Haven't actually gotten far enough to notice anything(only released 2 hosts so far, a long way to go). I will post if i find anything interresting.

RWG · « **Reply #16 on:** April 24, 2009, 10:18:00 pm »

On a Frigate SA/00A run, does this door on the right have to be open for any chance of them escaping?

That's the door I believe the 1st 00A hostage opens and runs out of. Is this correct? If so, on a standard SA/00A run, must it be open to have any shot at him escaping in time?

Time was untied when set. · « **Reply #17 on:** April 24, 2009, 10:23:00 pm »

No.

But it does offer better odds if the hostage is nearby or the door is open, I tried for hours to shoot the phantom after defusing the bomb to get guards to open it, and while I did get a couple insane 3rd hostage completions with it, it didnt seem to make any difference since it lures too many guards to block the hostage anyway.

I think it helps a lot if you dont make any noise at all after defusing the bomb to lure any guards. If you have to kill a guard, Id recommend using silenced D5K.

Wyst3r · « **Reply #18 on:** April 25, 2009, 07:31:00 am »

All 3 of the slowest hostage uses the same route(but diffrent starting positions), so ALL of them use that door. However, it does not need to be opened for fast escape. Escape point is by far the most important factor. But on normal runs i believe they have a tendency to warp stuff anyway(my hostages always got faster in TAS at end than when i followed them to their escape).

But if you want to open that door, then sure, it might make them faster, not by much but a sec or two maybe if you can afford to loose the sec it takes to open it.

RWG · « **Reply #19 on:** April 25, 2009, 01:35:00 pm »

I was mainly worried about positioning, not whether or not the door is open.

If they're on the other side of it, they might have 18 seconds left, which might not be enough. If they're on your side of it they might have 14 seconds left, which they can get out.

But they can get out regardless so alright.

Time was untied when set. · « **Reply #20 on:** April 25, 2009, 04:45:00 pm »

Well Hennings 105 had that door shut and also like 1:00 or 0:59 pace 3rd hostage escape, and I have had 0:57 or so 3rd hostage escape before. I think the big problem here are the guards around where the 3rd hostage is released, and also him choosing the best escape point. The combination of him getting stuck all day most runs and him needing to choose the best escape point makes it pretty insane to get him to complete.

I tried pretty much everything..killing guards outside where he is released (did seem to help), but it costed too much time and made getting a decent run so much harder since you can get stuck and stuff on the guards. I think all you can really do is not make any noise after defusing the bomb to lure out guards...cause if you go back most runs where A doesnt complete, theres like 5 guards standing around the doorway and ive had many runs where the hostage is stuck on them and cant even get through. But in the end it mostly comes down to luck, especially since the last hostage barely ever choosing the best escape point, so the odds of him choosing the best point on the very run where the 3rd hostage escapes fast must be like 1/700. I mean, 1/700 runs you can have a chance for a completion for a time like 101-103.

RWG · « **Reply #21 on:** April 25, 2009, 06:06:00 pm »

1/700 hmm, that seems slightly exaggerated. It's probably more like 1/250. I mean think about it, how many times do you really get a 59-102 run with everything complete except for the hostages, and all hostages were released with good deaths and none of them died? Probably only a handful per session.

Another thing I was considering is to slap hostage takers to death. They're stationary, so one slap to the back will kill them without making any noise. This can certainly work in the bridge.

Time was untied when set. · « **Reply #22 on:** April 25, 2009, 06:20:00 pm »

I probably failed like 250 102s , 100 or so 101s, 20 100s, then factor in all the crap 103/104/105/worse runs where the hostages didnt complete, and its probably 1/500 at best for a 102 or better run to complete. I had one session for about 2 hours where I probably failed 40 legit 101s.

As for slapping, I dont think thats very helpful since its slower and if you use silenced D5K for last guard you wont lure guards in anyway.

RWG · « **Reply #23 on:** April 25, 2009, 06:26:00 pm »

I've failed over 2000 102s and under, but how many of them had all 4 hostages released without later dying in an explosion, bug attached and bombs defused?

Probably 150-200.

Time was untied when set. · « **Reply #24 on:** April 25, 2009, 06:32:00 pm »

Well I wouldn't continue a run if a hostage got blown up...

So all the fails I am mentioning had a chance to complete.

Invertigone · « **Reply #25 on:** April 26, 2009, 05:06:00 pm »

Just a question:

Since Hostage #2 and Hostage #3 have the fastest escape times, how fast can that be completed as a whole?

Time was untied when set. · « **Reply #26 on:** April 26, 2009, 06:20:00 pm »

The first 2 hostages have the fastest escape times, although the last hostage actually has the fastest route, but since we save him last the first 2 escape first.

But if you mean what is "possible", I dont think there really is a limit for console since we cant ever go faster than like 59 speed (realistically). Of course the odds will go down if you go faster, but I think most runs will have A complete before you get into the boat at least with the strat I used on 102, which has better odds for 3rd hostage. So I think hostages can be fast enough for like 0:57 or so, but nobody will ever have that speed.

Scrambler Fanny · « **Reply #27 on:** April 26, 2009, 08:29:00 pm »

just curious... then why are we talking about it?

Matis · « **Reply #28 on:** April 27, 2009, 05:11:00 am »

pretty nice overlay of the boat, definitely useful. now only if i played some

Invertigone · « **Reply #29 on:** April 27, 2009, 09:30:00 pm »

Quote from: david n clemens

The first 2 hostages have the fastest escape times, although the last hostage actually has the fastest route, but since we save him last the first 2 escape first.

But if you mean what is "possible", I dont think there really is a limit for console since we cant ever go faster than like 59 speed (realistically). Of course the odds will go down if you go faster, but I think most runs will have A complete before you get into the boat at least with the strat I used on 102, which has better odds for 3rd hostage. So I think hostages can be fast enough for like 0:57 or so, but nobody will ever have that speed.

Perhaps I worded my question wrong?

Hostage #1(First Agent Hostage):

Optimal escape point: #2

Fastest escape time: 9.2 seconds

Hostage #2(Second Agent Hostage):

Optimal escape point: #2

Fastest escape time: 7.2 seconds

Hostage #3(Bridge Hostage):

Optimal Escape Point: #7

Fastest escape time: 6.15 seconds

Hostage #4(Engine Hostage):

Optimal Escape Point: #2

Fastest escape time: 29.25 seconds

Hostage #5(First 00A Hostage):

Optimal Escape Point: #2

Fastest escape time: 22.8 seconds

That is from Henrik's initial post

Just wondering why we can't go after those first two guys perhaps on an agent mission if you look in bold? Sorry, I'm confused. I haven't done speedrunning in a while. I try to release hostages as fast as I can. It does get frustrating with Mr. Grenade Guard and all.

Thiradell · « **Reply #30 on:** April 28, 2009, 12:06:00 pm »

We do go after the first two guys on Agent Corey. Secret Agent/00 Agent is what's being discusssed right now.

Time was untied when set. · « **Reply #31 on:** May 10, 2009, 05:44:00 am »

I was just thinking here...why arent we using that old insane strat when the WR was 1:11 where we just skip the engine hostage? I mean, the old 1:11 strat, just skipping engine hostage saving about 3 seconds. If you think about it, you kill the 2nd hostage taker faster this way than youd kill the engine hostake taker with current 1:08 strat, so although he does have to travel a long way, youd think it would be possible for him to escape fast enough for a great time. Also, I think Alex did a 1:08 fail on SA where this hostage actually escaped and A completed, and if you think about it, you are like 10 seconds slower to that spot where you kill him on SA than on 00A, so you'll have like 10 extra seconds for him to escape. Im just saying, it seems like this strat would be fine for 1:06 or 1:07 on 00A, when the slowass hostage does actually escape, so since the odds probably arent much worse than current WR strat, it seems like a waste of time to use the current WR strat when you are more likely to get 1:10 or 1:11 when they do actually escape, like I did.

bcks · « **Reply #32 on:** May 10, 2009, 07:13:00 am »

That's how I have 1:13 david, i skiped the engine hostage and used the very strat your talking about. I also complete a 1:15 with it, iirc. Those where my only 2 decent completions.

Time was untied when set. · « **Reply #33 on:** May 10, 2009, 07:25:00 am »

Ah, okay. I mean I was just thinking, cause you can't just watch some run where A completed and say when each hostage escaped...you can't ever really know. So to assume the engine hostage always escapes during the fade if A does is pretty stupid..and therefor I think using the uber slow hostage for WR strat is actually a pretty good idea. I mean, 1:10 still took me like 30 hours and that was with a supposedly "decent" strat for hostage completions. And I barely had any other completions for 1:11-1:13 either, I think at one point I went nearly 20 hours without a single completion better than 1:17 or something. I kinda think 00A is actually at least as bad as A/SA, just since you need 5 hostages to escape.

bcks · « **Reply #34 on:** May 10, 2009, 08:02:00 am »

Henrik should get times for that hostage, to really see if its worth it, and to compare to the other hostages times. I think it is, in my gut.

Lovins · « **Reply #35 on:** May 10, 2009, 08:50:00 am »

So there's hope for 1:15 on LTK after all.

Wyst3r · « **Reply #36 on:** May 10, 2009, 11:42:00 am »

I assume you mean using the slowest host? I tried running to him immideadly using a new innovative strat(pipes wap x2), but even so he can't escape fast enough. He's alot slower than engine host. Besides, engine host doesn't loose at all really, Gotta go to engine bomb anyway and he is shot without ducking. I don't see where 3 seconds is coming from?

Time was untied when set. · « **Reply #37 on:** May 10, 2009, 03:49:00 pm »

How do you shoot him fast without ducking? Its very laggy, and then that guard behind you is more likely to boost you around or blow the bomb up. Also, he will be even less likely to escape since you shoot him close to the bomb..so IMO it's probably better to just ignore him with this strat.

Worlds-One · « **Reply #38 on:** May 10, 2009, 04:51:00 pm »

Quote from: david n clemens

I was just thinking here...why arent we using that old insane strat when the WR was 1:11 where we just skip the engine hostage? I mean, the old 1:11 strat, just skipping engine hostage saving about 3 seconds. If you think about it, you kill the 2nd hostage taker faster this way than youd kill the engine hostake taker with current 1:08 strat, so although he does have to travel a long way, youd think it would be possible for him to escape fast enough for a great time. Also, I think Alex did a 1:08 fail on SA where this hostage actually escaped and A completed, and if you think about it, you are like 10 seconds slower to that spot where you kill him on SA than on 00A, so you'll have like 10 extra seconds for him to escape. Im just saying, it seems like this strat would be fine for 1:06 or 1:07 on 00A, when the slowass hostage does actually escape, so since the odds probably arent much worse than current WR strat, it seems like a waste of time to use the current WR strat when you are more likely to get 1:10 or 1:11 when they do actually escape, like I did.

Video David of what you're talking about.

Frigate will be one level I play for when I recieve GE this week.

PerfectTaste · « **Reply #39 on:** May 11, 2009, 02:16:00 am »

Is starting off with the most painful level first really a good idea?

Scrambler Fanny · « **Reply #40 on:** May 11, 2009, 02:27:00 am »

no.

no joke, Sterling. you should def start elsewhere so as to build skill and momentum before playing the frigayte...

Time was untied when set. · « **Reply #41 on:** May 11, 2009, 04:54:00 am »

Frigate isnt that bad...I just did a 1:04 2nd try today.

AZ · « **Reply #42 on:** May 11, 2009, 03:13:00 pm »

what Patrik & Afan said. Come on Sterling, get some wr's first

Nevermind Frigate;. besides, you've already got 0:25 on Frigate which is pretty good even by todays standards

Thiradell · « **Reply #43 on:** May 12, 2009, 12:38:00 am »

Like Clemens said, Frigate isn't that bad!

Henning Blom · « **Reply #44 on:** May 12, 2009, 02:43:00 am »

Let him play Frigate if he wants to, lol

RWG · « **Reply #45 on:** November 11, 2012, 12:53:34 am »

Okay sorry but this needs a bump now that the current 00A strat uses the slowest hostage. The way Henrik was talking was as if that guy simply would never escape.

Would there be any way for Henrik & Co to figure out that hostage's min escape time?

Also, the 2-3 fastest different route escape times for the 1st 00A hostage would be very useful.

Wyst3r · « **Reply #46 on:** November 11, 2012, 06:31:31 am »

Quote

The way Henrik was talking was as if that guy simply would never escape.

Pretty sure i was talking in TAS terms. For runs that are 54-56 seconds long, he should stand no chance of escaping. Another reason he wasn't discussed more was because as i mentioned in the first post, he'll never be faster than the engine host, so back then I assumed we'd always be using the engine host.

Quote

Would there be any way for Henrik & Co to figure out that hostage's min escape time?

Just take the engine host's fastest escape time and add the time it takes for the slowest host to run into engine room and get to where the engine host is positioned.

Quote

Also, the 2-3 fastest different route escape times for the 1st 00A hostage would be very useful.

Pretty sure 2nd, 3rd and 4th fastest spots are simply #3, #4 and #1. So the hostage would just run past #2 to get to one of those spots. So just approximate how long it takes for the host to get to those from #2 and sum it up with the escape time for #2.

I might look into these myself if i have any time to spare ^^

RWG · « **Reply #47 on:** November 15, 2012, 04:57:10 pm »

Man, if the engine hostage is 29s min and the 1st 00A hostage is 22s min, how the FUCK did I ever decide to go with the engine room strat and why did I actually think the odds of escape were better?

What the hell.

Henning Blom · « **Reply #48 on:** November 15, 2012, 05:06:42 pm »

Worked for me though so thanks Ryan

vitorr · « **Reply #49 on:** November 27, 2017, 05:32:06 pm »

Sorry for reviving this old topic m8s, but Henrik, do you still have the hostage routes pic you used in your explanation? If so could you reupload it?

(was http://i595.photobucket.com/albums/tt33/Wyster2/Boat.jpg apparently)

EDIT: I couldn't find another topic with some good info compiled so I'm assuming this is the only one around

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Author Topic: Everything you ever wanted to know about hostages? (Read 3178 times)