Octo's Poll of the Week #7

[octoinky]

You could spin this question in a lot of ways.  Maybe there WAS life but has since gone extinct, etc.,...  just don't be a douche the question should be pretty clear what it is trying to get across!

[flukey lukey]

because the probability is so heavily towards it, there most likely is / has been intelligent life on other planets. for sure

[RWG]

Dolphins are intelligent life.

How the fuck would we know if there are dolphins on a planet 7 billion light years away?  (By dolphins I mean, intelligent life which can't communicate through extra-solar means.)

Just look at the Drake Equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Equation) and if you don't think there is life on other planets, then I don't think you're intelligent enough to deserve my conversation.

Mind you, it's possible all the science is wrong and the universe really isn't as big as we think, and etc, but this is unlikely (and calculatable) so, if the universe is in the ballpark of what we think it is, it is almost a certainty that there is intelligent life elsewhere.

Interestingly enough, life as we know here on Earth primarily is made of Carbon, Oxygen and Nitrogen compounds.  Most of it (except for some extremophiles) need liquid water and air temperatures between -50 to 50 centigrade in order to survive.  It is entirely possible that life on other planets needs none of this, is not comprised of the same elements and could even be comprised of elements we don't even know exist yet.  Really, the odds of extra-terrestrial intelligent life appearing to be "human" (5 points, 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, upright, etc) is extremely minimal.  We can't even begin to imagine what extra-terrestrial life would look like, how it would communicate, and to think it can understand the signals we send into space is both egocentric and naive.

[wishiwasfamous]

Even if there were, we'd never be able to contact them (gg light years). I voted yes, but it makes no difference to anything in our lives.

[octoinky]

Clearly we will never contact intelligent life.

Such existence isn't as easy as "damn the universe is big, there must be somewhere."

While events occurred to allow life on earth, I don't think necessarily there would be somewhere else in the universe. The properties of other solar systems are often drastically different. It has taken what, 4.5 billion years for intelligent life to evolve on earth? That is 1/3 the age of the universe. That's a damn long time of a damn lot of small probability events stacking up to create intelligent life. I don't think assuming it has happened somewhere else is an easy assumption to make!!

I'm not very educated on the subject at all, intuition tells me there is a good chance life has formed somewhere in the universe, but that it isn't intelligent life in any sense of the word. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there were many many instances of life none of which ever had the chance to go anywhere far in evolution. It took a loooooooooong time to get out of the early stages in earth. I think the odds of extinction and losing all that progress are very very high.

--

I also think turning the story around is a silly argument against evolution. Small probability events doesn't change the fact that it has happened, especially when evidence stares you in the face. Not a lot of people win the lottery, but when I see somebody win it I believe it.

[RWG]

Clearly we will never contact intelligent life.

You sure?

You some expert on the matter?

Can you risk, with entire certainty, that we will never contact intelligent life?

You don't have enough to risk for such a longterm bet.

I'd go as far to say that not only will we contact intelligent life, but we will work together to create a better life in the universe.

The "you can't go faster than light" thing?  Yeah, that will get disproven too, or at least, altered.  Just because the laws of physics are a certain way now doesn't mean they won't change or ever be manipulated.

Not a lot of people win the lottery, but when I see somebody win it I believe it.

Bullshit.  You always tell me "you're never going to win the lottery."  You don't believe in lottery wins at all.

Also, it may have taken 700million years for the Earth to cool down enough to the point where chemicals could pool together the way they did to form the building blocks of life (if this is even what happened) and it may have taken 3.3 more billion years to get to the Cambrian explosion, which quickly evolved most of the types of life we see today, but what is to say that Earth's evolution of life didn't happen slowly?  Is it not possible that on another planet, this whole process happened in 100million years?  Really, we can't know anything about the evolution of life on any other planets... Hell they could have gone from nothing to a massive Earth-like planet teeming with life in even 500 000 years.  Who are you to say what is and what isn't impossible when it comes to planetary evolution of life?

[octoinky]

Lol goose, that wiki article makes me cringe. Calling that an equation is bogus. It is just a logical sequence of divisions. It's like publishing a formula for...

There are 10 apple farms
Every apple farm has 1,000 trees
Every tree has 500 apples
50% of apples fall off and can't be harvested
20% of apples are processed for apple juice
2% of apple juice bottles are defects and tossed out
5% of bottles expire before sale
....

So farms * trees * apples * harvested * processed * defects * expired = bottles consumed. OMG THE MCCANNA EQUATION

Then they fill in half of the pieces with random guesses. Great, science for the real scientific stuff... then you throw in guesses about evolution of civilization and communication, so why even have the hard science in the first place?

I find it very, very hard to assume that 1% of life turns intelligent. And that 1% communicates after that. Even if dolphins communicate, are they finding their way off the planet? Lol.



A nice read, though

[RWG]

I find it very, very hard to assume that 1% of life turns intelligent. And that 1% communicates after that. Even if dolphins communicate, are they finding their way off the planet? Lol.

Who gives a shit?  Your question is "is there extra-terrestrial life?" not "will extra-terrestrial life meet us on a planet other than their own?"

[octoinky]

Good 'ole wiki,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light

I don't think it is the 'move faster than light' argument. It is the distance argument. Even if you go twice the speed of light... ten times... a million times? the speed of light, you aren't getting anywhere near communication, still.

You're going to need some sort of wormhole thing where you can pass through space without time.

Maybe such a thing exists, sure, but I wouldn't put much weight on that.

I'm not saying trust scientists blindly, basically everything society has ever thought to be true has been proven wrong. I'm just not basing my argument on science, I really don't think we will contact another species is all. I guess it is technically possible, though.

[Time was untied when set.]

I dont know the exact details, but I am guessing there is like a trillion "suns" in the universe, each having its own planets very likely , therefor I would imagine there must be like a thousand planets in the universe that have "intelligent life". Also, scientists only know so much about our Earth, I imagine there was intelligent life well before the dinosaurs, perhaps that died out along some point as well? Billion of years is a long time, and some events may have taken place that have altered the matter on Earth significant, leaving no evidence of prior life existing...No clue really.

And if you think about it, since the universe is constantly moving outwards (big bang theory), then the planets outwards of Earth would probably be much older, so for all we know there could be a planet with far more sophisticated and evolved species than we are, and they could have the ability to create something to travel much faster than we can, so I wouldnt rule out an intelligent life form ever coming to Earth, although I agree it is unlikely.

[octoinky]

Clemens, you should find a way to watch a show on the history channel called "how the earth was made." Not the series, but the 2 hour special. It goes through the formation and various changes that life has brought as well as how the earth changed life.

Some very interesting things in that show...



And goose I was only talking about contact because wiff mentioned it. I voted "no" on intelligent life, though. I don't buy the "big universe" argument.

[Time was untied when set.]

I understand it is somewhat unlikely that there was life before dinosaurs, but all I am saying is that given the supposed size of the universe, it seems silly to me to even wonder if there is life anywhere else..OF COURSE there is. Besides, nobody has really proven, as far as I know, that Mars never had water, which means at some point there may have been life.

I am sorry, but I cannot help but feel there is life out there somewhere when I look outside and see all the stars in every direction... especially considering most stars are quite bigger than the sun (the biggest is like a trillion times larger) and our galaxy is actually pretty unimpressive compared to some others. A more mysterious question to me that I just cannot even start to think about because i cannot comprehend it, is why does the universe exist? I mean, I know we exist, I know space must exist, but I just do not understand why or how it does.

[RWG]

Good 'ole wiki,  
 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light  
 
  I don't think it is the 'move faster than light' argument. It is the distance argument. Even if you go twice the speed of light... ten times... a   million times? the speed of light, you aren't getting anywhere near communication, still.  
 
  You're going to need some sort of wormhole thing where you can pass through space without time.  
 
  Maybe such a thing exists, sure, but I wouldn't put much weight on that.  
 
  I'm not saying trust scientists blindly, basically everything society has ever thought to be true has been proven wrong. I'm just not basing my   argument on science, I really don't think we will contact another species is all. I guess it is technically possible, though.

Alright I'm cool with all this.

[wheatrich]

there's a lot of theoretical stuff in the works but yeah there's challenges to overcome them that we're not going to be able to have the technology for quite a long time. Give it another millenium and then check back with the space program on this imo. Humanity has really only had a few hundred years to think about all this stuff and only in the last 50 have we been able to actually try a thing or two compared to the gazillion years of the universe. Octo's actually probably wrong--given how little we've actually tried to do things like this I'd say it's highly likely we'll figure something out in terms of more convienent space travel if we don't blow up the planet first (which we're doing a heck of a job at doing the last 100 years)

tachyons (particles that go faster than the speed of light and almost never go slower), bending space (as in star trek) I think it's possible given it's geometry but brutally difficult to figure out how we can do that right now (probably the best current idea); antimatter's way too expensive to produce (would work if we had enough), laser cannons on the moon to fire at a sail (yes a sail) to make space trips go faster and a bunch of other stuff (will need a lot of exercise equipment on those things and all the food/oxygen/water/fuel you'll need for such a trip--the fuel's the toughest one because it adds so much weight to the craft it's tougher to get into orbit requiring more fuel .... (the shuttles use a ridic amount right now).

The Universe on the history channel's the show to watch--I'd try the space travel one

Octo's math background should tell him that the minute possibilities given the large amount of opportunites is likely to happen. Hell octo, we've even found an earth like planet and that was unlikely given most galaxies around us have more elliptical properties around their suns than our sphericalish/circular ones. Given all the galaxies and given all the potential for the same type of scenario as earth elsewhere and other scenarios that result in a similar outcome that it's a very high probability of life elsewhere imo.

"Clearly we will never contact intelligent life. "

I thought octo you'd be better than this. Anyone trying to make an argument of what's possible and what isn't even 500 years from now is insane much less the remainder of the history of the earth. If you had told even most of the intelligent people 100 years ago what we've done since they'd look at you like you're completely nuts. Also just because we can't do something doesn't necessarily mean that some other species won't find a way to contact us as they can possibly have different materials and be way ahead in spacial technology or whatever and the possibility of them coming to us via 3 way celestial body physics. (the 3rd guy gets chucked into some random part of space)

This theoretical stuff hasn't been proven impossible just beyond our current capability.

[RWG]

laser cannons on the moon to fire at a sail (yes a sail) to make space trips go faster and a bunch of other stuff (

Brilliant post overall wheat, I admit I was expecting a boring response but your knowledge in this area is quite high and interesting to read.  I couldn't help but point out this small bit that made me think of self-boosting in Goldeneye

[Scrambler Fanny]

um... there isn't much INTELLIGENT life on THIS planet!

[Scrambler Fanny]

It has taken what, 4.5 billion years for intelligent life to evolve on earth? That is 1/3 the age of the universe. That's a damn long time of a damn lot   of small probability events stacking up to create intelligent life.

i agree!  the probability of what you said is so small it is ZERO!!!    (which is very small)

i would very much enjoy seeing any sort of proof for this anyways.  simple question- ( ) how does anyone KNOW that the earth is *billions* of years old?

i understand that we might get a bit off topic here (and no-i'm NOT firing up the "religion" topic,) i'm genuinely curious as to any post claiming a reasonable explanation for billions, millions, whatever... an "allegedly" VERY OLD earth.  btw-i can easily prove that the earth is ROUGHLY 6000 years old, NOT blablillions of years.

and regarding someone's post earlier (Dave, i think) dinosaurs walked WITH man, not before.  i can show you and prove it (seriously) if you'd like me to!  

please don't start whining about this or that, i just wanted to see PROOF of our earth being gazillion years old.  and i would like offer the evidence of our earth being about 6000 years old.  anyone interested, please email (afanoftherings@gmail.com) or post or make another topic or whatever.

i voted no

[flukey lukey]

^ this guy says our earth is 6000 years old and that we walked around with dinosaurs. i am actually sorry that religion has blinded your understanding of reality so drastically. actually i'm not sorry at all if you try to convince others that you are correct on the matter

[flukey lukey]

just to make sure i didn't sound too offensive, i like you Shawn, but i cant handle it when people claim to know more about the universe because they learnt it from the Bible

[Soft-Hedwig]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth


PS Stfu Shawn. You're sounding utterly ridiculous.

[Thiradell]

Durk don't feed us that crap and say Shawn sounds utterly ridiculous.

I voted no here, but I think it's uncertain and always will be (at least for the rest of our lives) uncertain whether there is life out there.

[RWG]

^ this guy says our earth is 6000 years old and that we walked around with dinosaurs. i am actually sorry that religion has blinded your understanding of   reality so drastically. actually i'm not sorry at all if you try to convince others that you are correct on the matter

In his defense, saying the Earth is 4.5 billion years old and the universe is 14 billion years old "because scientists do" is also quite blind.  I imagine that you haven't done any personal research on the matter and that a lot of what you base your beliefs on evolution are is also somewhat blind.  Mind you, there is evidence to support this theory of age, alas believing the Earth is 4.5 billion years old is more correct than believing it is 6000 years old, but with facts this difficult to determine, we will never truly know.

The only scientific facts we can ever know with certainty are ones which we see taking place in front of us today (gravity is a good example) and there is nothing to suggest that these can't change in a long enough time period or with enough new developments.

In sum; saying the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, while probably true, is also a statement of blind belief.

[DavidK5]

Yes, but there's a difference between personal beliefs and collective knowledge. I wouldn't say that trusting what scientists say is "blindly following" them (given the research is valid and peer reviewed, which it is in this case). The reason research is done is to expand the world's collective knowledge, not just the knowledge of the individuals doing the research. Granted, all research should be treated with a certain degree of skepticism (which helps improve methods), but this doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't believe in evolution just because you weren't with Darwin when he went to the Galapagos.

[wishiwasfamous]

Wow, not quite sure how this topic devolved into another religion/evolution topic. It's astronomy for crying out loud. I don't know about you guys, but astronomy gets me hot. Everyone should take an astronomy class sometime, it's really worth it. Definitely one of the most interesting classes out there, especially at the university level.

[Soft-Hedwig]

I don't wanna take astronomy I might discover earth isnt 6000 yrs old !

[Lovins]

I wish I had taken an astronomy class at some point; stuff like theories on the universe/black holes/dimensions etc is probably the most interesting thing to me.

[Axel A]

I'm currently taking a class on black holes.

Teacher: Din mor

[vitor]

Even if we get to communicate to a intelligent life that is very far, the response we'd get would be thousands of light years delayed. So we'd have to meet "them", or they'd have to come to us, which is very very unlikely. But I'm sure that there's intelligent life, of any kind, somewhere else. Universe is huge, you know. There could even be something similar to our solar system like millions of light years away, we will never know.

[RWG]

I've taken Astronomy 101 and Geology 130 (Geology of the Solar System) at one of the most acclaimed universities in the world. Not only this, I passed and did quite well in both courses. Very interesting stuff.

If I ever cared to study at school for the sake of studying and learning I'd like to Major/Minor in Astronomy/Religion as these two things are quite comparable and related.

[Scrambler Fanny]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth  
 
 
  PS Stfu Shawn. You're sounding utterly ridiculous.

... THIS JUST IN... WIKIPEDIA... THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY ON THE AGE OF THE EARTH!  

[Lovins]

Haha good one Axel.

[octoinky]

Please do not hijack my topic, afan.


Wheat, I guess I was a bit shortsighted in saying "never." I am not naive to believe that what we know now is truth. However I don't think the "100 years ago people would be shocked at what we know today" thing is true. The rate of increase in knowledge is INSANE. I'm going to pull some numbers out of my ass, but say the knowledge in the last 100 years will be like in the next 10 years or something. For this reason, I think we have a much better gauge on "truth" than 100 years ago. While it is certainly dumb to assume what we know is true, it is pretty rare in the last while to actually DISPROVE things. We are simply improving on ideas. The age of the earth isn't going backwards. And the adjustments have been slim as we learn more. Nobody claims to know the age of the earth, but they are confident it is in some ballpark, using statistics and solid data, not conjecture like most science centuries ago.


This is why I think, although it may be stupid of me, that what we know now is much safer than what people knew hundreds of years ago. We base things on evidence, on mathematical proofs, and statistical analysis. Now, when people start conjecturing about stuff, that is when we can't be so cocky. But on things about the age of the earth, heat of an object billions of miles away, the way molecules work, etc., I think we have put so much EVIDENCE behind this stuff that simply didn't exist when we make fun of "LOL THE EARTH IS FLAT." Their methods were very different than ours, and even if ours aren't perfect, we are at least using PROOFS and data.


Another thing is...


Okay, how long do you think humans will last? 100 thousand years? Even a million years? You think we'll have the capability to communicate with others in our lifetime? Now if you figure intelligent life in theory has been evolving for billions of years, certainly all of their civilizations would have had the ability. Many civilizations! Yet I have never heard of anything (besides quack theories) about our planet being visited by others. I just think that IF there were many other intelligent civilizations in history, and that if we think humans will be able to communicate with other intelligent life, that sometime in the last billion years we'd see evidence on this planet of THEM coming to check out our evolution.



Etc., etc. I mean I'm not educated on the subject at all, still fun to think and talk about for me though. I just think the odds of us progressing to the point that we'll contact others, let alone there being others worth contacting, is very very slim. I have a hunch humans are going to fuck themselves over far sooner than when we'll be able to do anything about successfully leaving this planet.

[Lovins]

Great argument, Octo. I especially agree with your last sentence.

[RWG]

Yeah, so all the accounts of us being visited by extra terrestrials are "quack theories." Way to disregard everything revolving around this discussion Octo. I agree with Wheat... I really thought you were smarter than that.

You might be right with regards to humans fucking ourselves over... and the reason for that is because we are not picky enough in choosing mates, and those who do not have good genes or any good reason to reproduce still do so.  The human race has improved everything... except the human race.  If only more people saw that...

[gamingguru507]

The fact of the matter is that the Earth was created in 6 days, and on the seventh day God rested. Keeping that in mind it's Sunday, and therefor no day to argue. There is life on other planets in our universe- it's so absurdly likely that it would be ridiculous to speculate otherwise, and a complete waste of the universe if not true. It's also true that to heed anything from the Bible as fundamental truth is fallible, and that likewise scientists are still human in that they're limited to produce results that will best suit them- grants, funding, recognition etc... What does this mean? There is a lot of bullshit science, but through collective thought, reasoning and study it would be fair to say that we will never fully understand our origins in any true sense. Are we still evolving? Certainly. Why does God need to be omnipotent, all seeing and abiding by seemingly 'human' conditions? Are you alive? You think therefor you are- you are alive, God is life, to exist is to be Godly and to be Godly is to understand that we will never fully understand anything. Will Will Smith save us from the apocalypse on Independance day, or it will be our germs that allows Tom Cruise's son to miraculously survive a gigantic explosion when he runs over the hill? There is NO 'God', but there is definitely God. We'll continue our race, but not before we sacrifice millions upon millions of lives through the ages in the name of both Religion and Money- the very two same things. Just watch Keanu Reeves tonight before bed and you will come to realize that you know nothing, what is real for you may not certainly be real for me, and that yes, aliens exist but unless they happen to find us in the dawning of our own true intelligence and realised actuality- it won't happen anytime soon. Just relax folks, it's Sunday.

[octoinky]

Goose, I'm pretty sure I trust the LACK of physical evidence from centuries of geological studies over the statements about seeing UFOs. I'm just saying that from the experts, there is no indication that I've ever seen about our planet being visited by others. They have founded millions of fossils to build evolutionary models, can use the dirt to figure out the CLIMATE at the time, can pinpoint (lol @ pinpoint, I mean estimate with large variance) large volcanic eruptions just by looking at layers of elements on hillsides, deduce how animals socialize from BONES (this is the kind of science you need to be sketchy on, though...)...

I'm just saying these guys can do a lot of shit, and while a lot of dating techniques are inaccurate and it is hard to know what you can't see, it remains to my knowledge that there is no solid evidence or even theory about our planet being visited from intelligent life. Maybe they never left a mark - but a heck of a lot of other things HAVE left a mark...

--

And choosing mates isn't all that drives evolution. It can also be those most fit to survive. It isn't just about the most intelligent people hooking up, lol. Our evolution isn't driven by physical characteristics. Human evolution IS the improvement of our world. What do we need to improve about ourselves? So what if we're slow, weak, fragile, etc. Our life expectancy is constantly growing, survival rates from basically all disease is going up, etc. Sure, the weak can survive in our society. To me, that says something GOOD about evolving, not bad.

I think your point is more on the lines of the weak and poor etc driving society down. We donate resources, funds, etc., which could be "better" served advancing our race? Quarantine all the people with aids and let them die, sort of thing? While speaking from the viewpoint of evolution in most species this may be a good thing, I think the evolution of human morals is far better for our kind...

--

And what am I shocking you about, not being as smart as you thought? I think I have valid arguments for what is clearly just an opinionated topic. There is no right answer here. I think Wheat's argument makes sense, sure. It is silly to write off the long term possibility of contacting intelligent life. I just don't think it is going to happen, and I gave a few reasons why. Possible? I'm don't think I'm ready to write that off and hope I haven't said otherwise.

[RWG]

Actually there is a right answer.

Either life exists on other planets or it doesn't.

We might never know the answer, but the answer does exist.

[octoinky]

Uncertainty is a bitch eh?

I'm not sure I buy that statement. You can make the right play in poker, but lose. That doesn't make it the wrong play. You can make the right business investment and go in the tank. Doesn't make it the wrong investment. These are talking about future events.. but not necessarily. The cards were all ready to be dealt! They were sitting right there, no shuffling left to do.

I agree the answer is known, but is it knowable? Not on Earth, not right now.

[flukey lukey]

octo, have you watched Karl Sagan's TV series called 'Cosmos'? i think you and anyone else posting on these boards should check it out. most of it is uploaded onto youtube i think

[wheatrich]

octo--"I have a hunch humans are going to fuck themselves over far sooner than when we'll be able to do anything about successfully leaving this planet."

this is definitely the most likely scenario

goose "Either life exists on other planets or it doesn't."

a 50/50 chance obviously!

[RWG]

I never said it was 50/50...

I just gave the two options

Either the Detroit Lions will win the 2010 Super Bowl or they won't... how is that not a correct statement (all jokes aside.)

Clearly, duel option scenarios aren't always 50/50... in fact they rarely are.

So fuck you Wheat.

[Lovins]

Pretty sure he was joking, or else he wouldn't be the online poker player that he is...I need runner-runner for the straight flush to win this hand, either I get it or I don't = 50/50!

[RWG]

I know that HE knows it's not true, but I got the impression that he thought I thought it was a 50/50 chance...without realizing I got into the University of Waterloo for Honors Math (the same program Snapdragon graduated from) and alas I do have at the very least, some inclination and sense of mathematics.

[Carathorn]

I believe the universe is so big that the odds are 99.9999% there is a planet on which "they" actually have the exact same active poll at this very moment.

[Time was untied when set.]

^

[Lovins]

Gotcha Ryan.

And interesting statement Cara! If you believe the universe is infinite, I guess there's reasonable possibility of that being true.

[octoinky]

Or if you believe the infinite time universe contract and expand over and over theory, then this conversation has already happened. Infinitely many times.

[RWG]

Or if you believe the infinite time universe contract and expand over and over theory, then this conversation has already happened. Infinitely many times.

Bingo.

And when people use the argument that "the Earth is too complex and beautiful to have been created by chance, alas it must have been created by God" it is easy to retort that with infinite time, it will have happened.

[gamingguru507]

For some reason it doesn't seem to make much sense to me that the universe would be contracting and expanding for eternity. There is no evidence to suggest that the universe expanded and collapsed before, and from the look of how things seem to work around here that seems like more of a skeptical opinion as we dont really know what this expansion is or if contraction is even possible. From observing our planet and the universe around us, everything does seem to have a beginning and an end. We die out, everything alive on earth will eventually die out, and in the universe things like stars although burning for what may seem like an eternity burn out as well. I think it would be more likely that the universe will continue to expand to a certain point that either it will contract in on itself which would be cataclysmic, or more likely that it will expand forever into a distant, dark abyss. Neither scenario seems pleasant, nor likely to happen anytime soon.

So then what do I feel is God? Well certainly the uncaused cause, the beginning of the universe. SOMETHING happened at the beginning of time. Something. It seems fair to say that whatever it was that had happened certainly happened fast and in chaos. I feel that there could be more beyond our universe, Men In Black-the-galaxy-is-on-Orion's-belt style; not literally a marble on a cats neck but rather an elemental soup of proportions unfathomable to a bipedal mammal whose scale is frighteningly insignificant. It's simply easier to believe there is an omnipotent all seeing God who has control over what we'll never understand.

Equally, as we are merely a fluke on a rock in an elemental soup that continues to expand, whatever caused it in the first place will theoretically embody `God`, and the chance that this soup spawned other incarnations of unimaginable possibilities is tremendously likely.

[octoinky]

People think lack of evidence = no clue. That is wrong. We know how physics work on earth, and in our galaxy and a large part of the universe. Okay, maybe you can just play devils advocate and say things could be different elsewhere in the universe. But that is hypocritical based on what you are arguing in the first place - LACK OF EVIDENCE. Similarly, you can play devils advocate and say humans are often proven wrong - no, our theories are improved, not proven wrong. Physics laws aren't just changed, they may be modified, but for crying out loud we know a lot about gravity. What we DON'T know about gravity will fit in to verify and then expand on what we have already observed. Etc...

Anyway, with this in mind, just because we have no evidence of a universe contracting doesn't mean theories have no backing. Complex models have been constructed using what we know about physics, etc.

The contracting/expanding thing isn't accepted anyway. Big Bang Theory is essentially accepted in every single scientific area. But, ask every single scientist about the FIRST MOMENT OF TIME, and every single one worth his/her salt will say "I don't know."

I don't want to turn this into a religion topic, though I just like talking about logic and physics and the universe etc...