Author Topic: No-pause item switch explained...  (Read 1236 times)

Wyst3r

  • Posts: 4374
  • Train Strat Master
    • Henrik
    • GE
    • PD
    • twitch
    • 2018SilverStar
No-pause item switch explained...
« on: September 27, 2012, 01:15:37 pm »
For those who haven't seen it, this is the no-pause item switch glitch:

Bunker 1 - Equipment Switch Without Pause

Since Bryan brought it up in the other topic i decided today to investigate this myself. I figured a good starting point would be to reproduce the "frozen bond" glitch since that appeared to be necessary. This turned out to be very easy when done on an emulator on Bunker 1, simply press Start so that the pausing begins on the same frame as the key starts being analyzed. It requires much less precision if you have alot of lag which is why this mostly happens to poeple on Agent. Anyway, i tried doing all kinds of random input in this frozen state but was unable to recreate the item switch glitch this way...

I noticed that when you start analyzing the key, the item displayed in the pause menu changes from Key Analyzer to Goldeneye Key. To find out exactly how this works, i looked up some memory addresses corresponding to the items that you select. It turns out that GE uses a very simple system, where the items get a value corresponding to their position in the list, starting with 0. So for a typical Bunker 1 item list, the possible values would be these:

0 = Unarmed
1 = PP7 (silenced)
2 = Camera
3 = Key Analyzer
4 = Datatheif
5 = Goldeneye Key

So selecting Key Analyzer gives a value of 3. However, if you start analyzing the key, this value will change to Goldeneye Key's value, in this case 5.

Now in Greg's video, the item that turned up wasn't Goldeneye Key but rather Datatheif. As we can see, Datatheif's value is 1 less than Goldeneye Key. How do you change the value of an item in the list? Simply add an item to the list!

So if we want to change Datatheif's value from 4 to 5, we can simply pick up a weapon, since all weapons are stored above Datatheif in the list. With this knowledge, the no-pause item switch glitch no longer seems so mysterious. All we have to do to reproduce it is this:

1. Pick up Goldeneye Key and select the Key Analyzer.
2. Hold Z and press Start to freeze bond (requires timing)
3. Pick up a new weapon that wasn't previously in your list.

If you pause now the item displayed will be Datatheif, and not Goldeneye Key. I haven't had time to test this alot yet but i'm guessing if you pick up 2 weapons you'll get Camera instead.

Going back to explain Greg's video, what happens is that a grenade explodes killing the guards around Bond, and since Greg hadn't picked up a KF7 before, it was now added to the list, causing this glitch to happen.

So is this the super useful glitch we all had hoped it'd be? As far as i can tell, no. However i've only spent like 3 minutes testing it so there's still alot that could be discovered. The problem is that if you try to use the item, in this case Datatheif, all that happens is that the Goldeneye Key gets thrown out. So it appears that this is only a visual change in the menu and not an actual item switch....




Time was untied when set.

  • Posts: 5288
  • Dat clutchness
    • Clemens
    • GE
    • PD
    • twitch
Re: No-pause item switch explained...
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2012, 01:45:20 pm »
fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

well hopefully something new gets discovered with this. good work though Henrik, fantastic job!
unfortunately since bunker is the only level with key analyzer it looks like we can kiss this goodbye on another level.
teh peoples champ

GoldenGreg007

  • Posts: 3409
  • The Factory
    • GE
    • PD
Re: No-pause item switch explained...
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2012, 01:45:54 pm »
Nice analysis Henrik, I'm glad you got a chance to look into this.  Your description makes a lot of sense, though it's unfortunate that the switch seems to be purely visual.  Do you think that the timing of the weapon being added to the list relative to the key analyzing progress could impact whether the change is a full item switch or just a visual "switch"?

Wyst3r

  • Posts: 4374
  • Train Strat Master
    • Henrik
    • GE
    • PD
    • twitch
    • 2018SilverStar
Re: No-pause item switch explained...
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2012, 02:16:35 pm »
It appears that i was wrong, this doesn't require freezing bond at all. Just analyze, pause and pick up a weapon after the pausing begins.

Edit: Lol i'm wrong again, you don't even have to analyze the key. Just pick up a weapon after pausing xD (suprising that this doesn't happen more often...)

It also appears that the reason i got the camera instead of Datatheif was that i had the Key Analyzer up without analyzing the Key, i.e. it never switched to Goldeneye Key and the Camera is right above Key Analyzer. This does not seem to work if you have a weapon out...

Edit2: Confirmed, this can be done with all non-weapon items... So it's not bunker 1 exclusive. Also the displayed item can be come a weapon from normal item, like the Camera, but not vice-versa.

Also, if you unpause and pause again the displayed item becomes Key Analyzer again.

Quote
Do you think that the timing of the weapon being added to the list relative to the key analyzing progress could impact whether the change is a full item switch or just a visual "switch"?

I doubt it, but everything is worth trying.

Edit: Interresting thing that might be of minor use to TAS runs measuring real time: Not only the displayed item is changed, but also the position of your selection in the item selection menu. And the interresting thing is that the new position remains even when you pause/unpause and the displayed item is reset. So you might be able to "quick select" items, skipping scrolling through the menu, saving a few frames.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 02:45:09 pm by Henrik Norgren »

Wyst3r

  • Posts: 4374
  • Train Strat Master
    • Henrik
    • GE
    • PD
    • twitch
    • 2018SilverStar
Re: No-pause item switch explained...
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2012, 03:33:42 pm »
If anyone wants to try this out for themselves, here's an easy way to do it:

1. Start up Dam, kill the first guy with the PP7 (don't pick up the KF7 yet)
2. Pause and select the modem
3. Run towards where the KF7 landed and pause just before you reach it

The pause menu should now display the KF7 with ammo count 1 :P (For some reason ammo count seems to be unaffected by this)

Edit: Lol here's what happens if you do it with the mines on runway:



Edit: I tried doing the inverse of this trick, i.e. remove an item from list while pausing, by throwing away the goldeneye key before pausing. This didn't seem to work since the key isn't actually thrown during the pause. However, this did create another glitch which may or may not be old but what happens is that the "pick up" sound is played over and over despite you not actaully picking anything up...

Edit: On Bunker 1, if you've picked up both keycards, selecting the "Computer Room Keycard", which is below "Security Keycard" which in turn is below Goldeneye Key, and then picking up the Goldeneye Key while pausing changes displayed item to Goldeneye Key for some reason? By all logic it should give the Security Keycard which is right above (Security keycard does become the selected item in the item list though...). This is really wierd since the glitch works like normal with the security keycard.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 04:11:27 pm by Henrik Norgren »

Wouter Jansen

  • Posts: 9006
    • GE
    • PD
    • twitch
    • 2014RankingsDev
    • 2015RankingsDev
    • 2016RankingsDev
    • 2018RankingsDev
    • 2020RankingsDev
Re: No-pause item switch explained...
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2012, 06:27:39 pm »
Henrik, do you still use AIM? I would like to talk =)
sexy, this

Wyst3r

  • Posts: 4374
  • Train Strat Master
    • Henrik
    • GE
    • PD
    • twitch
    • 2018SilverStar
Re: No-pause item switch explained...
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2012, 07:52:13 pm »
Sure, i'll log on tommorrow

GoldenGreg007

  • Posts: 3409
  • The Factory
    • GE
    • PD
Re: No-pause item switch explained...
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2012, 01:04:05 am »
On Bunker 1, if you've picked up both keycards, selecting the "Computer Room Keycard", which is below "Security Keycard" which in turn is below Goldeneye Key, and then picking up the Goldeneye Key while pausing changes displayed item to Goldeneye Key for some reason? By all logic it should give the Security Keycard which is right above (Security keycard does become the selected item in the item list though...). This is really wierd since the glitch works like normal with the security keycard.

The ordering of keycards is just based on the order you pick them up.  Regardless of which one you select, or their order, you'll end up on the Goldeneye Key when doing this glitch.   

I fooled around a bit on Silo and found that the DAT, circuit boards, and Ouromov's briefcase and key all behave like equipment ("switches" to the item immediately before the selected item), while the keycards behave like the Bunker 1 keycards.  They'll skip right over the circuit boards and DAT even and end up on the Camera.  I thought this meant all keys/keycards would yield this result, but the ones on Bunker 2 do not exhibit this behavior.  Basically, it's inconsistent.

Grabbing two different guns at once that are both ordered before the currently selected one while going into pause can do a "double switch".  It wasn't consistent though so I'm guessing it depends on which gun the game registers you picking up first.  In this case, the pause menu still maintains the ammo of the original gun, and thus you still have that gun out when you unpause.

David Wonn

  • Posts: 175
    • David Wonn's Unique Video Game Glitches
Side note on inventory manipulation
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2012, 05:14:13 pm »
I've noticed this behavior before regarding how the game "counts" positions in the weapons/gadgets list, mostly from messing with toggling push button code cheats mid-level. Unfortunately I never thought to put 2 and 2 together regarding the key analyzer. I'll demonstrate a few of the quirks I've observed over the years:
 
Go to any level, and select just the All Guns cheat from your cheat menu (and optionally Invincibility.) I'll use the Dam just for example. Pause the game, highlight a weapon not normally available in the level near the bottom of the list, and select it with the A button. The RC-P90 is a good enough example for the Dam. Optionally unpause, and switch to a double RC-P90, then re-pause. Now input the All Guns PBC to disable your extra weapons. Doing this reverts you back to only the weapons / gadgets you started with, plus anything you've picked up, minus anything you've permanently expended (e.g. Covert Modem if you had tossed it.)
 
Now take note when you move to the weapons list. The game had your cursor position down pretty low, but now that you have deleted most of your inventory, it rapidly has to correct itself to the last weapon / gadget in your inventory. Furthermore, when you move back to the initial overview menu, your weapon's name shows as a single dot. Unpause and re-pause quickly, and it will "correct" itself to Unarmed, even though you are holding a weapon, in this case the RC-P90! And you don't even officially have it in your inventory! (I'd call it a phantom weapon, but that would be misleading, as the name is already taken.)
 
Now unpause, and play the level as usual, and you will have free temporary access to the chosen uninventoried weapon, as long as you never switch to another gun. What's neat is that you can pause, switch to a gadget, such as the covert modem, then either use that, or press your weapon switch button, and you'll be back to the temporary weapon! Despite the fact that the pause menu says you are "Unarmed", you can still end the mission with a temporary weapon listed as your weapon of choice.
 
For more amusement, play around with the Max Ammo PBC, so you can have fun with other stuff, like the Shotgun, Throwing Knives, or even those strange empty weapons you pick up in Depot. If you throw knives against a wall, then disable All Guns, you can then pick them up, and they permanently remain in your inventory, regardless of how many times you toggle All Guns.
 
Will any of this info be useful in a speedrun? Probably not by itself yet, but it at least provides a little more insight in the way the game handles your weapon/gadget list when your inventory suddenly undergoes a huge change.

Wyst3r

  • Posts: 4374
  • Train Strat Master
    • Henrik
    • GE
    • PD
    • twitch
    • 2018SilverStar
Re: No-pause item switch explained...
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2012, 06:29:47 pm »
Interresting stuff ^^

One of the things i wanted to try with this glitch was to see what happens if the value went out of bounds (or at least out of the valid range) by choosing the last item on the list and then removing some earlier item. However, i couldn't figure out any way of testing this (I had totally forgotten about PBC's, and without cheats, the Goldeneye Key the only item that is ever removed from inventory i think?

GoldenGreg007

  • Posts: 3409
  • The Factory
    • GE
    • PD
Re: No-pause item switch explained...
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2012, 01:27:46 am »
Not an item, but the tank shells can also be removed from your inventory.  I played around a little bit on Runway, with the Ignition Key selected (only equipment and items can come after tank shells) while I was in the tank, then got out.  Nothing significant happened - the key remained the selected item.  

There are a lot of weird glitches you can accomplish with the tank though.  One really old one that I remembered was that if you are in the tank, select the weapon before the tank shells, press A then B immediately after and you'll be out of the tank, still with the tank weapon out, but with 0 shots (though with infinite ammo you can fire tank shots) and displaying as "unarmed" in the pause menu.  It doesn't appear in your inventory, and switching weapons will lose it until you get back into the tank.  Similar to what Wonn was talking about with turning PBCs on and off.  

Maybe you'll find something more interesting/useful if you play around with the tank some.