October 2012 Proof Call

[AZ]

Times that say NEEDS PROOF need videos up by December 1st or they will be backrolled.


Henning Blom: Streets Secret Agent 1:55 - PROVEN
Streets 00 Agent 1:55 - PROVEN
Depot Agent 0:25 - PROVEN
Depot Secret Agent 0:40 - PROVEN
Depot 00 Agent 0:51 - PROVEN

Ilari Pekkala - Silo Agent 1:04 - PROVEN
Train Agent 1:04 - PROVEN
Depot 00 Agent 0:50 - PROVEN

Jim Barrett: Bunker 2 Secret Agent 0:51 - PROVEN

Jimmy Bauer: Frigate Secret Agent 1:03 - PROVEN
Jungle Agent 0:52 - PROVEN
Jungle Secret Agent 0:57 - PROVEN
Jungle 00 Agent 0:58 - PROVEN
Aztec Agent 1:35 - PROVEN
Aztec Secret Agent 1:42 - PROVEN
Aztec 00 Agent 1:48 - PROVEN

Luke Pettit: Frigate 00 Agent 1:06 - PROVEN

Marc Rützou: Bunker 1 Agent 0:17 - PROVEN
Surface 2 Secret Agent 0:55 - NEEDS PROOF
Depot Secret Agent 0:43 - NEEDS PROOF
Depot 00 Agent 0:51 - PROVEN
Train Secret Agent 1:23 - PROVEN

Ryan White: Statue 00 Agent 2:19 - PROVEN
Train 00 Agent 2:01 - PROVEN
Caverns 00 Agent 1:36 - PROVEN
Aztec 00 Agent 1:44 - PROVEN


Nothing was backrolled from the September Proof Call!

[OHMSS]

Marc Rützou:
Surface 2 Secret Agent 0:55 - NEEDS PROOF

Saw it live on twitch Q.E.D

[RWG]

Yeah, it's possible the video has deleted itself but I saw it too.  A lot of people saw it.  I think Illu, Wouter, Eise, Jimmy, Alex all might have seen it.

I think this will make for interesting proof issues... I've been meaning to mention this for a while.  Someone gets a PR/WR on twitch.  They forget to save the video forever (or they don't ask the mods of theelitegaming channel to do so.)  The video deletes itself after a week and is gone forever.  DOES IT COUNT?

imo yes obviously it should but yeah...

[Henning Blom]

This should be a easy discussion and I dont think it should. I mean, then there has to be rules who watches and has seen the run, who are legit to trust as a witness and who are not, what if only people from outside the-elite watched it or some eliter that is new to the community or whatever and thats not the kind of stuff we need. Imo its A LOT easier if just the player is responsible for the video to be seen for other people (like it is right now) just make sure you save the video if you do get a pr/wr on twitch which can't be THAT difficult.

I would absolutely hate if someone got a untied wr or other sweet time and a few witnesses saw it but I couldnt because I was at work etc. Imagine if someone tied your untied that way... yeah.

[DavidK5]

I can't speak for the proof policy since I'm not in charge of that, but for people who stream on twitch (whether that's on theelitegaming or a personal channel), you are responsible for recording and preserving videos of your own gameplay. The channel admins (i.e. Cara and myself) are not responsible for saving other people's PRs. Everyone who has access to stream on theelitegaming also has editor status for the channel, which means you can create highlights of past broadcasts through theelitegaming's dashboard. It was only recently that twitch implemented this (before anyone could highlight on any channel).

That being said, if you ever have questions or need help with twitch-related stuff PLEASE ASK. People like Cara and myself will be glad to help you, but don't expect us to babysit your PRs.

[Wouter Jansen]

Does it count? Let's rephrase that. Is it tangible proof? No it is not. YE also made this clear not that long ago.

Also I would like to express that some of the streaming quality should not become the new standard for video proof, the quality is going worse instead of improving in 2012. (There are clear exceptions and I am sure everyone can differentiate between them. If not, ask for clearance) This includes my own stream. The quality is really lacking and that is why I still take my time to get actual proof up that I feel is sufficient, I will hopefully find a way to stream with great quality such as Taka's where even the timer is very clear to see (though I am not sure if that is good enough either if taken directly from stream. I saw cases of lag/framedrops, but that could be on my side). You guys are allowed to be proud of WRs, show them in full glory.

[AZ]

This is the backlash with live streaming. Players only care about that people can view them playing LIVE and nothing else (there are exceptions of course). I can only speak for myself, but I would NEVER ever stream if I couldn't record on my HDD or at least on VCR simultaneously. Playing on twitch and not preserving the vids is practically the same as playing at an elite meeting in front of a bunch of people and not recording. This has to be changed.

And yes Wouter, I've also noticed the various quality in streaming. Sometimes it's good, but, as you mentioned, it's often worse instead. We should apply a rule or something in which players MUST split record while streaming because missing frames and random lag are not the way to go in 2012.

[RWG]

If 5 billion people saw Usain Bolt run 9.49 but none of the IAAF officials were there, would it count?  Would the world know what the true WR is?

I'm all for stuff counting if it was streamed, even if the video is not preserved.  It would definitely suck if it were an untied... but this is fucking Surface 2 55 we're talking about.

[Carathorn]

if its not saved, then its your own fault for not doing. If the vid is lost, then there is NO proof.

[Comet]

Streaming a WR for people and then losing the video really isn't that much different from doing it live in front of people, the latter of course is currently not counted. I don't see how you could logically count one method and not the other.

[RWG]

But this is Marc doing Surface 2 SA 55 that we're all talking about... not an untied WR.

Also, EVERYONE has access to theelitegaming channel.  Anyone can view it easily.  Not everyone can go to Virginia...

These are two completely different situations.  Not counting Marc's 55 would be a joke.

Now that he is streaming on HIS OWN channel, this won't happen again.  There were problems the past few weeks with highlighting off theelitegaming.  I couldn't do it, that's why I asked Cara to do it for me.   I dunno, this is very much a non-consequential one time thing that doesn't have an impact anywhere else.

[AZ]

But this is Marc doing Surface 2 SA 55 that we're all talking about... not an untied WR.

Every PR, regardless the point value, as long as it's over 80 points, should and are treated the same. Your argument is therefore irrelevant. I do realize people would be more upset if this happened to an untied or uncommon WR (as Henning mentioned).

Also, EVERYONE has access to theelitegaming channel.  Anyone can view it easily.  Not everyone can go to Virginia...

Fair enough, but what if only one or two people saw the 55 LIVE? The channel being accessible to everyone doesn't mean that it should count and Virginia shouldn't as you could get a PR on the stream and have 0 viewers. Imo, none of them should count (regardless of how many saw it LIVE), as you have to preserve your PRs in both cases. That reminds me; I backrolled my own and Eise's Caverns 00A time that we got at Henning's because we (Henning :P) failed to provide proof of the runs within a month. The times were fortunately proven later.

However, as all this twitch and stream stuff is pretty new to us, and as Marc didn't know how to save his gameplay or took for granted the 55 would still count or whatever, it's possible that we can make an exception here. It's Third who has the final word on cases such as this. The current proof policy says nothing about PRs achieved on twitch or on a live stream which, of course, has to be implemented asap.

[Time was untied when set.]

So it's ok to cheat and get a illegitimate wr and put it on the ranks, but streaming a WR for many eliters to see and then losing it later means the time doesnt count? Welcome to the Elite.

[50]

So it's ok to cheat and get a illegitimate wr and put it on the ranks, but streaming a WR for many eliters to see and then losing it later means the time doesnt count? Welcome to the Elite.

C'mon man, will you bring that up everythime it's have a new proof policy issue? Axel made a mistake and appologies about it. I think we can turn the page on this now. If we alway bring his mistake up, it'll never end. He even said he think about making a special case about that 55.

[Wouter Jansen]

Seriously it can't be more straightforward. If the policy says every 80+ time needs proof (I don't know what exactly it says), then they need proof. It does not need to mention anything about twitch. Twitch can provide a form of proof. If that gets lost, it is no longer proof.

[Carathorn]

50 dollars to the person that wants to confirm that he saw me getting dam 52 on twitch!  

I heard somewhere that its enough to validate a WR these days  

[RWG]

Why is Thiradell's proof policy taken like the Bible here?  He is one man who wrote a proof policy, and all of a sudden it is the be-all-end-all policy on everything.  What if he wrote into the policy that every 50 point time needed proof?  Or what about ONLY 95 point times?  80 points is arbitrary.

[Darth Vader]

 

[Thiradell]

Nice to have Goose back.

"-When a time is gotten that is considered very good, the proof moderator (Axel Zakrisson for GoldenEye, myself for Perfect Dark) can request proof of this time. "Very good" is often defined as a time that is worth 80 or more points on the rankings. Other very good times can be:
-An unusually good time for a new or largely unproven player.
-A time that is one (or perhaps a few more seconds) second off a world record, and still requires great skill to achieve."

"Streaming a WR for people and then losing the video really isn't that much different from doing it live in front of people, the latter of course is currently not counted. I don't see how you could logically count one method and not the other."

Another tragic example would be someone getting a taped WR, showing the tape to several of their friends, waiting a month to capture/upload the video, and then finding the tape went bad in a month's time. It needs to be online and readily available for anyone to see, indefinitely.

[RWG]

Surface 2 Secret Agent 0:55

-6 seconds off WR

-virtually no skill required to get it (look at some of the people with 55 and 54...)

-unusually bad time for marc, the opposite of an unusually good time for an unproven player


Yeah I don't see the problem here.

[50]

I'm sure Marc can cake it again in 5 min anyway. It doesn't worth the time to contest that shit.

[50]

I'm agree with the policy here though. No vid online for everyone = no proof. Period. Same if I 100% beleive Marc got it.

[Infected Mind]

The fact that its only 80 points is pretty harmless. But everyone should be Recording there stuff I mean yeah it sucks to dupe times but ya gotta do, what ya gotta do. If you can't be recording runs, you shouldn't be speed running games at a competitive level.

That said I do think I saw his run live lol.

PS: Marc you should use WR strat sometime and improve the time by alot =]

[AZ]

If you can't be recording runs, you shouldn't be speed running games at a competitive level.

Good job on (finally) editing the policy Tyler!

[RWG]

Well the biggest problem with streaming on theelitegaming is not that we can't make highlights... we can do that.  BUT you can't save the video forever.  Someone with the password has to do that.  So even though we highlight the WR or PR or whatever, the video will still be gone in a week and there's nothing we can do about it (now that Scott, DK, Hugo have abdicated responsibility for doing so.)

So basically Clemens' 100% 1:04:12 will be gone in a week if no one with theelitegaming password saves that video forever.  No editors like Clemens, Marc, Illu or myself can do anything about it.  (same applies to the session where Marc got Surface 2 SA 0:55.)


Anyways, I'm definitely not hating on anyone here.  Especially not you Tyler.  I was going to ask you for advice on getting a run encoded with SDA quality soon so I hope we are still respectful and friendly.

I'm just bringing up the points that need to be brought up.

[Wouter Jansen]

In general (applies to everyone):
Stop thinking of Twitch (or any other service) as your new easy way out to have proof. Once you have your stream going it is very easy to get careless with the quality and availability since it records and keeps videos for you. You're still the one with responsibility for your own proof. It is not the end of the world to not have proof, but there are consequences, and whatever they are, you will be facing them.

In case it was missed,

I would like to express that some of the streaming quality should not become the new standard for video proof, the quality is going worse instead of improving in 2012. (There are clear exceptions and I am sure everyone can differentiate between them. If not, ask for clearance) This includes my own stream. The quality is really lacking and that is why I still take my time to get actual proof up that I feel is sufficient, I will hopefully find a way to stream with great quality such as Taka's where even the timer is very clear to see (though I am not sure if that is good enough either if taken directly from stream. I saw cases of lag/framedrops, but that could be on my side). You guys are allowed to be proud of WRs, show them in full glory.

[DavidK5]

In Xsplit you can record directly to your hard drive in addition to streaming (it's the Local Recording option). You can set the bitrate and such differently for the local recording than for the stream itself, so even if your internet does not allow you to stream at a high bitrate, you can record at a high bitrate to your hard drive. I could post directions on how to do this in the streaming topic, but it's really straightforward.

I didn't realize that people making highlights couldn't save forever, but my original point still stands that players need to be responsible for their own vids. There are ways to download vids off twitch (i.e. browser extensions in FF like Flashgot) so you'll never lose them.

Edit: Actually just checked and there's no longer a "save forever" button from the channel owner side either, so I'm assuming that all highlights are automatically saved forever (which I thought was always the case). If you're still worried, anyone can click the gear on a vid and select Upload to upload the highlight directly to youtube.

[Thiradell]

Yeah, just educate yourself a bit on how to save videos. It's not hard to do, and it's the player's responsibility to make sure this gets done.

@Goose: We're cool, you're my homeboy forever. Just be aware that if you're abrasive in discussions, I'm gonna be pretty harsh/blunt back at you. The important thing about getting "SDA-quality vids" is to have a good means of encoding originally. I used a normal DVD recorder to get the videos, and then just sent the discs to them. You know about anri-chan; I wouldn't know how to encode low/medium/high quality without that program, and I assume having multiple versions like that is still the SDA standard.

[RWG]

Yeah that's pretty much what I figured.  Thanks, I might confer with you if I get a run and it comes time to take care of business.


By the way, where are the vids for Illu's Depot 42/50?

[Illu]

www.twitch.tv/illudude/c/852155

^depot 50^

I send my first 42 to AxZ only because the quality sucked, but he said it was ok for proof. If you wanna see it then just ask me but it's black and white and webcam, I was going for lower but laid the plans to the side for the time being.

[RWG]

I'm wondering about some of Michael Kirkness' times?  He was always sketchy and known to lie/lose videos of his times.  ie: he claimed Cradle 34/36/36 for instance, but the tape got destroyed at a party.  Yeah.

Anyways he still has a few very good times on the ranks that don't have videos.  Many are over 80 points and don't have videos attached to them on the ranks.  The only one I'd consider good is B1 00 107 for which there is no vid attached, but if we're proof calling everything over 80, he has a lot of vids missing.

a) do videos exist for these times and they are just not attached to his page yet?

if not

b) can we proof call some of these times?


If you're out there lurking Mouser, I'm sorry for calling you out on this, but I have to now.  You're my boy 5evr

[Infected Mind]

Those times are so old, we shouldn't be backrolling times of that era so you can get free points. Those were almost definitely achieved before the previous proof policy, which I believe makes them safe. Im going to use Dan Berubes dam 53 as an example. This time will never get removed because of the age and previous policies

[OHMSS]

Under what rules was Dam 53 allowed without proof? Did only untieds require a video back then or what?

[RWG]

The mods made a specific ruling on Dan Berube's 53.  I believe Goldeneye experts Derek Clark and Jon Ngamer Bearder came to a conclusion that Berube got 53 for real.  He sent in a tape with a bunch of 54s or something.  Tyler Probert was his buddy who claimed he saw the 53.  I dunno.  There's no real evidence Dan Berube even existed.

Anyways, as far as I know, there has never been an official decision on Mouser's B1 107 for instance.  It's by far his best unproven time.  Even though some other 90 pointers are unproven (like s1 150s) they're nowhere near the same league.

Whatever, I'm only after free points.