Should Duel PA 0:09 count as a WR?

[OHMSS]

Vote

[Scrambler Fanny]

Why wouldn't it?  Has someone found a way to complete the level faster than 9 seconds?

[DavidK5]

Why wouldn't it?  Has someone found a way to complete the level faster than 9 seconds?

[Zeppo08]

All because Axel got it? Get a fucking grip and delete this shit bullshit topic.

[Jimbo]

I've always considered it a WR, but I think it should be taken out of the longest-standing-records page.

[Time was untied when set.]

I have always thought duel wrs should be banned from the WR topic. Technically they are world records, but every time i see theres a post in the WR topic and Im like
"hey a world record" then i check and find out it was that pile of shit duel WR, its always a huge disappointment and troll. No offense to anyone who posts those times, but its pretty dumb and I think they shouldnt be posted in wr topic.

[Thiradell]

OHMSS's concern is with this page.

http://rankings.the-elite.net/perfect-dark/leaders

Lots of people are on there right now solely by virtue of Duel PA 0:09. The vote indicates most people want it to stay that way.

[Thiradell]

bump

[OHMSS]

Yes, I was refering to the WR leaders pages (PD & Rare) and the WR topic. Didn't think that would require extra explanation. PD WR leaders page entries are 2/3 due to Duel 9.

[AZ]

If we remove Duel 9 from the WR leaders page, we might as well remove Duel from the rankings altogether. Do you also want to revoke all the Streaker-achievements that 50% or so of the current Duel-sweepers earned solely thanks to Duel because it's "too easy to achieve the streaker achievement on that level"?

I know it looks a bit ugly, but technically it's a WR, and it just happens to be the most common rare record atm. Funky Buddha, Trent and Clemens ( ) are among the players that don't have the WR (yet), and Duel PA 0:11 was even worth points not too long ago (irrel argument(s) I know but should at least consider it). Also, Duel 9 requires video proof, unlike Duel 3/6.

Let's say WAR! 0:25 was as common as Duel 9, would you also want that WR not to count? And what if 2.x wasn't advantaged/we didn't allow it on GE or whatever. Depot 26 and Runway SA 23 would still be the WRs and both of them are way more common than Duel 9. Shouldn't they count either?

[Aztec Exemplar]

Just leave it as a WR and keep it on the rankings.

[flukey lukey]

Lost4440 is an Axel alt?!?!?!?!

[RWG]

If I'm honest I think Duel itself should be completely removed from the rankings.

I can't imagine such a troll level would be accepted on the GE rankings for instance.

It's not about the WR being common.  It's about the level not even really being a real speedrun level consistent to all the other 40 levels in GE/PD.

[Funky_Buddha]

I agree with Goose/Clem/Jimbo. It's fairly drastic but there's really no harm in removing it from the rankings as it's not even speed running anyway, and when it is in the WR topic it's a real letdown. At the least removing it from leaders and longest lasting WR's seems appropriate as it's an achievement in free-time and patience, not of gaming skill. But yeah, it seems people want it to stay so go democracy and all that.

Oh, and Axel the reason some people don't have it is because there are infinitely better things to do in life than spin and shoot. For example, I one stayed up all night counting the grains of sand I had collected in my ass after a day at the beach. And using your WAR/Depot logic you could have just as easily made a case for including Duel 3 and 6 in the leaders rankings...

[Deep-Darkness]

In my opinion, the duel HAS to be a WR. I also wouldn't bother if 3/6 were included in the WR holders section (I know they'll never be), since they are WRs. Easier or harder, they are WRs, and The Duel is a solo mission in Perfect Dark too, don't mind who dislikes that, so imo it shouldn't dissapear from the rankings. It's not even the simplest level to play in a game with WRs page... Obviously you don't have to run, so it's not a "speedrun", but it consists iin doing a level fast anyway so...

Well, just giving my opinion.

[chuck]

Is it just because you get sad when you go on NEW WRs topic and see a Duel PA record? Come on

[Scrambler Fanny]

The reasons that people have listed to take it down seem pretty irrelevant.  What makes this level "not a level?"  It is listed in the missions.  Simply because of it's simplicity-that disqualifies it from being a "real" level?  If that is an argument, then why wouldn't Aztec be disqualified as well for it's intricacies?  (Sorry, I don't play PD, so I couldn't think of the hardest PD level.)  Let's chop off both ends of the skill-scale.  The easy and mundane as well as the difficult and intricate.  I know my opinion probably doesn't carry much weight here since I'm not a PD player, but FWIW, this is a stupid idea (NOT counting Duel)

I suppose that the real debate is whether or not Duel is considered a level.  If it is, then all times should remain.  If it isn't, then sufficient reasons should be stated WHY it isn't and discussed.

[Thiradell]

"Oh, and Axel the reason some people don't have it is because there are infinitely better things to do in life than spin and shoot."

Yes, Duel is a boring level, doesn't mean we can just pretend it isn't there. It is way different from the rest of GE/PD, which I personally think is cool. Going for things like Defection 0:06/good Cradle times is even more boring IMO.

I agree with Deep Darkness 100%; if we're gonna define a level, it would probably be defined as listed with the rest of the missions, with A/SA/PA difficulties, your time gets saved when you finish, etc. It is a level, and getting 3/6/9 is way easier than other WRs for any serious PD speedrunner.

[AZ]

Yeah, people better come up with better arguments as to why Duel shouldn't be listed. I agree FB it is a boring level, but imo not as boring as say S2 A/SA. However, a level being boring or not is irrelevant. This discussion reminds me of 2.x and why some didn't want it allowed. The best they could come up with (including myself, as I'm not a big fan of it either) was that 2.x is "lame". You could as well say the same thing about Duel WRs. And I completely understand if some of you think Duel as a level and Duel WRs are lame. A level being "lame" or different from other levels shouldn't stop it from being a level though.

Duel is listed under "Special Assignments". So if you really want the level removed, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to remove MBR/Maian/WAR! as well.

That said, Duel WRs (especially Duel 6) being on the longest standing WR page is pretty troll, I agree. I suppose it is on there solely because we know which date it first was achieved and by whom (SnapDragon). Woll or someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jimbo]

I can't be arsed to leave this lengthy post as to why I want the level removed from the rankings or the database, but I'll leave some snippets.

1. Goldeneye has "special levels" earned through SA and 00A completion, PD runs the same way with all 3 difficulties - A for MBR, SA for Maian, PA for WAR! - You have to do something completely different (firing range, all bronze) to earn The Duel, which is already a stupid troll level anyway.

2. As a guy with 3/6/9 for many years as my only records, I couldn't care less if I lost those as my only PD WRs. If anything, it might motivate me to play more and earn a real WR.

3. I don't give a damn if it saves your best time, so does holo training.

4. I'm also a guy who wants Dan Berube's Dam Agent 0:53 removed from GE history forever, so my opinions from here on out are probably totally irrel. I'm a hater on clutter, and Duel is nothing but clutter to me.

All because Axel got it? Get a fucking grip and delete this shit bullshit topic.

[Time was untied when set.]

I could never be PD champ because I wouldnt play duel  if someone put a gun to my head for 9. Complete waste of time.

Jim is right. Its a dumb level that requires extra things to unlock. I view it like a random bonus/training mission as opposed to a real level. And it would be nice to motivate people to actually play a real level for a wr instead of playing duel.

[Thiradell]

You could get 6200 without 9

Duel is a level. Not liking it isn't grounds for anything.

[RWG]

Jimbo brings up a ton of great points

How about we listen to the guys who actually compete at a world class level at GE/PD, investing their time and lives into the games, etc; instead of listening to the talking pundits who are only in this discussion for political type reasons?

Seriously, you guys are worse than sports commentators or CNN political pundits.  All you care about is having your voice heard and feeling important.


- Duel is not unlocked by playing through the missions of the game.  (Think of a GE level that would be unlocked by playing 100 multiplayer matches for instance.)

- Duel was never *intended* to be played through as a distinct mission with its own story.  It is a bonus stage.  Every other level in GE/PD are part of the big story, or their own unique one.  Duel is not.

- There is no cheat unlocked for beating Duel in a fast manner.  Every other of the 40 stages in GE/PD do have a cheat unlock.  Duel doesn't.  If anything, the reason we began speedrunning these games was to unlock the cheats.  Duel doesn't have this same quality.


Duel is a lot like Pluto.  Everyone who knows anything agrees it shouldn't be included, but the fanboys who argue for nostalgia, "the children!" and God-knows-what-else will be pushing for it to remain.

Duel is unlocked by playing a training exercise.  WAR, Maian, etc, are unlocked by playing missions.  DUEL IS A TRAINING EXERCISE.  WAR, MAIAN, ETC, ARE MISSIONS.

Remove Duel.

[Deep-Darkness]

This is just an opinion:

The fact that to unlock the Duel you have to do extra things besides the rest of missions ONLY proves to me that PD is knda more complete than GE. I understand that many people dislike this level, but I sincerely haven't seen a solid argument to quit it out yet... "It is a waste of time", "It is not a speedrun", etc. Well, as I said before, even though you don't have to run a lot (maybe on Obj 2), it is a mission planned to be done the fastest possible, as every other mission, and it requires also an extra trick (the pause strat), etc. And yes, I went for the Duel 3/6/9 thinking it was a waste of time, but many other things in speedrunning history are a waste of time too and they are done still nowadays...

Also, the reason why the Duel can't be compared with a Holo training is that Holo training is out of the main menu, but the Duel is in a menu called exactly Solo Missions. That means that the programmers and developers of the game wanted the Duel to be a mission.

And Goose, the fact that it's unlocked by doing "training exercises" does NOT implie the fact that it is a "Training Exercise"... The firing range can improve your accuracy and your reaction speed, but the duel doesn't in my opinion, unless you're completing the DLTK...

[SimThreat]

Differences between Duel and every other solo level:

- Cannot be unlocked by playing through solo mission. Can only be unlocked through something irrelevant to solo missions.
- Does not have an associated unlockable cheat.
- Does not involve a story line.

Please do not continue to say that the only excuse for duel not being considered a mission is that we 'don't like it'. Please at least do the respectable thing and read the points that people are making.

Yes you can select it from the solo missions menu. But it has obvious differences and it is obviously not like the normal missions.

Pluto is actually a good example of this type of situation. You can't use 'similarities' to include things in groups. You need to use 'differences'. I.e I could say let's include hologram and firing range because just like solo missions, they show the time achieved. Also firing range has bronze/silver/gold which is similar to agent/sa/pa. Therefore because of 'similarities' we should include them as well. Just like you cannot say 'duel should be included because it has a/sa/pa and saves best time' or 'needs to be included because it can be accessed from the same menu'. "Can be accessed from the same menu?" That's a joke argument.

Not a good strategy. Gotta look at what is different in how they function. Sure it was included in the past, but times change and people get smarter. Duel is obviously different, don't include it with the regular missions.

[SimThreat]

Also, the reason why the Duel can't be compared with a Holo training is that Holo training is out of the main menu, but the Duel is in a menu called exactly Solo Missions. That means that the programmers and developers of the game wanted the Duel to be a mission.

Deep Darkness with the inside scoop on how the original programmers wanted the-elite.net to categorise this level.

[Shadow]

I think Duel A was my only PD record ever (though I had a couple of times that were close back in the day). I never felt like it was a WR though, and since SA and PA are more of the same... get rid of 'em.

I remember unlocking Duel and thinking not thinking of it as a level at all, just a bonus holo trainer. I only played it a couple of times.

At the very least, like Jimbo, I don't think they should be in the "longest standing records" database.

Meh, get rid of them. They've always been the oddball anyway.

[Phazonn]

I had a quick look over this thread and my opinion is probably of little value since I don't play PD and to be totally honest, I can't really say I care one way or the other if Duel is removed. I will say that every reason for removing it so far has been incredibly arbitrary. At the end of the day it is a level and no matter how much you say that "it's not unlocked by beating levels", "there's no cheat to unlock" or "there's no story" will not change that fact. And it is a fact. Go to the level select screen and Duel is there; it is a level.

That being said, why should the fact that it's a level stop it from being removed? I feel like people are trying too hard to disqualify it as a level, when there's no need. If this many people have a problem with it for simply being a source of clutter on the-elite (which I can fully understand), then remove it. Why not make a separate page for Duel and limit Duel WRs to being posted in the PR thread? It seems like a win/win situation to me, because those with Duel WRs are able to keep their WRs and have somewhere to post, while those who don't like Duel get it removed. Just my take, anyway. As I said, it's probably of little value.

[DYM]

[DYM]

http://rankings.the-elite.net/perfect-dark/leaders

Half of the people on this page need to go honestly, this page should be for people with respectable WRs.

Karl and Goose bring up some really good points. I personally don't care if it counts as a WR or not but I'm a bit disappointed my otherwise 21 consecutive WR posts were ruined by an irrel 9. Notice how the top GE/PD players want the level to be removed while (most of) the people who don't speedrun this game want it to stay. There is so much divide in this community.

[SimThreat]

I'm sorry, but no. If you go to the select mission screen the duel is not there. What you actually have to do is run down stairs and complete the firing range medals first. Please note that you do not find the firing range in the solo mission screen. Please also note that this is only 'level' that cannot be accessed by playing the solo missions alone. This makes it different to every other level.

Labelling something as arbitrary doesn't make it arbitrary. I think it's arbitrary that the duel is located in the solo mission screen. Where else would they put it?

Why do we need to disqualify it as a level? Because the main argument for people wanting it to remain on the ranks is because it's a level. Duh. But it is only a level as much as the firing range medals are levels. The only leg this argument has to stand on is the fact that it's located on the same screen as the other legit levels. But again, where else would you access it from?

The duel is a level, but it is in no way a level in the same regard as the other 20 levels. It is a different creature completely. Why is this relevant? Because this 'creature' is useless. 300 people have the agent wr when there are only 97 spots allocated for points. Same goes for sa pretty much. The level is 3/6/9 seconds long and involves spinning and shooting and no speedrunning. Maybe if the level was more legit it'd be fine. But actually when you look at it logically it's quite stupid to have it alongside the ACTUAL levels. Makes a complete mockery of the real levels.

[Phazonn]

You agree that Duel is a level, yet you also say you want to disqualify it as a level? I agree with you that it's certainly not in the same regard as the other levels, but what you're doing it pointless. You and I both know it's a level and all I'm saying is that it's a waste of time to make your case against Duel by saying it isn't.

And it's entirely arbitrary to label Duel as not being a level, because it has no story. How does a story define a level? It doesn't. It's arbitrary. The same can be said for your other reasons. How does being unlocked by other levels define a level? How does having a cheat to unlock define a level? If it's on the level selection screen, it's a level. But as I said, it doesn't matter.

Think of it this way, if you worked in a restaurant and you saw salmon ice cream on the menu, you wouldn't say I want to remove this from the menu because it isn't food! Well, obviously it is food. How can you argue that? Your case for removing it should be that it's disgusting, not that it isn't food. Like I said, I agree with it being removed, but I just think you're arguing about the wrong things.

[AZ]

I personally don't care if it counts as a WR or not but I'm a bit disappointed my otherwise 21 consecutive WR posts were ruined by an irrel 9.

I removed my 9 from the WR topic. Never realized it bothered people so much. Please ban me temporarily.

[SimThreat]

Phazonn I'm very happy to discuss this with you but please do not overlook points I make. For example, I just mentioned into my last post that the majority of the argument coming from other people wanting to keep duel on the ranks is because it's considered a level. Therefore it is entirely relevant to discuss whether or not duel is a level. Furthermore if Duel is a level, is it different from the other levels and should it be grouped alongside them?

Groups are defined by differences, not similarities. For example, racing cars. They have different classes. These classes are defined by the differences of motor etc. They don't say 'all cars have 4 wheels therefore they are all classed together'. They say 'what differences do these cars have in the output of the motor etc'. Or boxing, it's the 'difference' of weight that seperate the boxing classes. Not the similarities, because most boxers wear gloves and have 2 arms.

As with this game, it is incorrect to group duel with the other levels. Not because it doesn't have similarities. Because it does obv. Hell I can give you similarities between a turd and a rose, it doesn't mean they should be grouped. But there are distinct differences that does exclude it. Which have been addressed already.

Also just understand that there are many factors that influence my opinion on this. It creates a larger picture with everything considered. So pulling out one individual point and acting as if that is the 'make or break' argument really isn't necessary. If there was only one point in this hole argument that would be fine, but there are many and they have been listed. To break it down again though...

Given the obvious differences to the main missions, the ridiculous lack of skill required to turn and shoot, the short nature of the level, the amount of people who have the records, the fact that it's not involved or even related to the main story missions, the fact that the only way to unlock the level is through some random side quest also not related to solo, it should not be ranked with the other levels and people should not be getting 300 points that contribute to overall points for this joke level when actual speedrunners are busting balls to get 100 points on real levels. (if you ignore 90% of this paragraph and respond with 'thinking the level is a joke isn't a good reason to remove it' then you'll know you're a failure at life).

[Henning Blom]

There are no cheats to unlock in MBR, Maian SOS and WAR! either making that argument irrelevant. 

[SimThreat]

I concede that point

[Phazonn]

Well those were the points that were being brought up (multiple times) and I was just pointing out that it wasn't worth anything to say it's not a level. It's just my opinion that refuting "well it's a level" with "no it isn't", is as pointless as the original statement itself. I mean, sure I defended Duel as being a level, but I also said it shouldn't affect it being removed. I just saw the discussion as this:

It's a level!
It's not!
Yes it is!
No it's not!

When in reality it doesn't matter whether it is or isn't. I'm not pretending that there aren't other reasons to remove it. It was just this in particular that I had an issue with.

[DYM]

I wasn't referring to your 9 Axel but anyway there's no need to act so passive.

[SimThreat]

Phazonn: We agree. I was not saying 'duel should be removed because it's not a level'. I was merely responding to the handful of people stating the counter, and I was trying to get across the point that this argument is not strong.

[Phazonn]

Fair enough then .

[Deep-Darkness]

I admire and respect Karl a lot as a speedrunner. But since 2 of his posts were against mine, I think it’s logical that I defend my point of view… Every opinion about this will be welcome:

Please do not continue to say that the only excuse for duel not being considered a mission is that we 'don't like it'.

I have read carefuly my posts and I don’t say that anywhere… That is just maybe your interpretation, but it’s not the same what I say and what you understood of my post then. It can be my fault though, since my English is kinda bad, so I’ll do my best for that not happening again.

Please at least do the respectable thing and read the points that people are making.

Please, don’t accuse me of being disrespectful. I have obviously read every post before writing mine, and some of them even many times, because I have had to translate some.

Deep Darkness with the inside scoop on how the original programmers wanted the-elite.net to categorise this level.

Again, I haven’t said that. I don’t know if that is sarcastic or not, because my English sucks, though. I said that they decided to put the level in the Solo Missions menu, so they probably wanted it to be a mission. And yes, they could have put it in the Holo trainings for example, so sure they had more options. Anyway, that does NOT mean that they wanted t-e.n count is as a level, lol.

Groups are defined by differences, not similarities

Let me correct this: Groups are defined by BOTH differences and similarities. A bike and a plane are not any similar, but they both are vehicles. Chess and Football are not any similar, but they both are sports. Etc. Differences are nothing without the similarities.

Okay, and said that, another thing to say. Sincerely, I don’t mind if the-elite counts it as a level or not. I prefer it being a level, but nothing would really happen if not. But of course, if Duel PA 0:09 stops counting as a WR, it would be nice if my Duel PA (and maybe other’s) were unbackrolled from 10 to 9, because even though I don’t have a walkthrough video, at least I have a photo proof and I plus show the times in all my LTK/DLTK videos… I don’t mind if other people bothers or not about my Duel PA PR, but of course I personally care of my times, and that one costed me many hours to get.

And reading the points people has posted, again, I don’t see why to remove it yet. Some people thinks going for 3/6/9 is not as worth as going for WRs in other stages, but they also have to understand that WRs nowadays are completely unreachable for non top players (like me, for example), so maybe it’s not worth for a top eliter, but it’s worth to someone like me… The only non duel reachable WRs for someone like me would have been Defection 6 (now 5 untied by Illu) and Chicago 15 (now 14 untied by Clemens), and the rest are just unimaginable.

[Time was untied when set.]

Goose just made the most amazing post I've ever read on the internet. Congratulations.

And if you want a real wr, just earn it! Saying duel should remain just because you can't get a "normal" wr is ridiculously lazy.  It took all of the top players a lot of work to become capable of a normal wr. There's still several easier wrs that anyone can achieve if they try( chicago sa/pa, war 25 etc) . Its a dumb level and I think everyone can agree that the wr topic is spammed and cluttered with duel wr posts. I guarantee maybe 1-2 people max even watch the runs of duel wrs. Has anyone here seen axels 9? Didn't think so! So why even put it on the ranks if nobody gives a fuck? I know that's a bad argument but its simply true. Let's clean up the ranks.

[Deep-Darkness]

Well, I'm didn't mean it should remain as a WR just because I can reach other WRs, lol. I just say it's not worthless...

And about the vids, anyone in the entire elite does watch my videos of any level. Not even DLTK Untieds, so no, that's not a good argument imo

[Thiradell]

"Notice how the top GE/PD players want the level to be removed while (most of) the people who don't speedrun this game want it to stay. There is so much divide in this community."

I'm going to respond this as respectfully as I can. It is true that there is often a divide on issues like this between the top speedrunners  and the people who don't speedrun the games as much, instead serving in administrative roles. This is often because top players use the argument of "we play the games more, therefore our opinions matter more," as if playing the games more somehow gives you a better understanding of how to make decisions. I'd argue that the fierce level of competitiveness among top 5/top 10 players often results in bias on issues like this, where people who aren't ranked as high (but who have still spent hundreds of hours speedrunning the game) see things from a more removed point of view, thus judging matters more for the community as a whole, and less for the elite few who sit atop the ranks and want things bent a little bit too far in their direction. Ace's points were:

"The WR leaders page should be for people with respectable WRs"

What does respectable mean? Who defines it? The fact is you've chosen to play a game where Duel is a level with WRs, you don't get to remove them because they defile the leaders page. If you don't like it, play a different game OR better yet, focus on what matters. If this line of thinking were applied in other places, people would want "Zelda Gerudo Archery" removed from ranks because 2357892 people have the WR of 2,000. In reality, no one really cares that much, because it's a fun mini-game, and the top players are still clearly distinguished by their accomplishments in other categories. People aren't looking at the WR leaders page and saying everybody there is a legit player who's worked hard for a WR; the top players are still clearly set apart by their achievements. If you don't like all those other people on the page, don't pay any attention to them.

"My 21 consecutive posts were ruined by an irrel 9"

I understand that this annoyed you, but we're not going to remove a level because of it.

I don't think any of the points that have been made would've been brought up if Duel was a challenging level where, say, 0:08 was the WR and was only held by a few people. Regardless, the vote is very much in favor of keeping Duel 0:09 as a WR. The analogies made to planets, or turds, or anything else, aren't relevant at all.

Deep Darkness has said everything else I would've said. Disregarding his opinion because he's not a top player, or something, doesn't make any sense.

[AZ]

Its a dumb level and I think everyone can agree that the wr topic is spammed and cluttered with duel wr posts.

Probably one of the most exaggerating statements I've read on these forums. In the last 4 years, a total of 7 players have tied Duel 9. For reference: http://pdwrs.free.fr/allrecords.php?year=2013&month=10&day=21&pub=0#duel

Saying duel should remain just because you can't get a "normal" wr is ridiculously lazy.

It's arguably even more lazy not to even try playing for 9.

I guarantee maybe 1-2 people max even watch the runs of duel wrs. Has anyone here seen axels 9?

Please speak for yourself. I know you don't care at all in general about times being worth less than 95 pts/common WRs, but lower ranked players do. No one has seen my 9 because a video hasn't been posted yet.

I could never be PD champ because I wouldnt play duel  if someone put a gun to my head for 9. Complete waste of time.

If this is the case, then why did you even play for 3 and 6? ( ). And I refuse to believe it. You can play other levels for hours waiting for nades or whatever but not Duel PA? Really? It's not that you will struggle for it (my guess is that you would get 9 in an hour if you tried).

Also, there are tons of unproven times on the rankings [...]. There are plenty of Duel 9s with no videos

Other things to consider:

if Duel does gets removed, hundreds of achievements would have to be revoked (including WR Holder, Streaker and The Big 10k) not always knowing for sure if a player should be granted that achievement or not.

If it gets removed from the main rankings, several players would have played PA for hours for no purpose whatsoever (e.g. Otto claimed he hated playing PA, Illu said it took him 8ish hours to get 0:09 and ZAZKEN played for it on and off for an entire day). We would also have to remove the level on the LTK/DLTK rankings. Wouter would get robbed of his DLTK untied...

I also think Henning brought up a valid point in that there are no cheats to unlock on the last 4 stages in the game, not only Duel. Sure, all four levels needs to be unlocked and every time you need to do different things. If you select Duel in the mission menu and go to background it even says "Final Test", thus implying that it is indeed related to all other 20 levels (this might be thought of as lame, but the GE manual also brought up 2.x for instance).

Also, Duel, unlike the other three Special Assignment-levels, does feature Joanna.

The arguments that Duel is not in the main story and does not involve a story line is absurd. We might as well remove Aztec/Egypt then since those two levels "aren't related to all the other 18 missions".

I also can't help to think that this discussion is, if not entirely, then almost entirely biased. Players that want Duel/Duel 9 to be removed (and often for multiple of these following reasons combined):

- people that wouldn't be affected at all if it gets removed (mostly top players).
- people that wouldn't lose any achievement(s) from it.
- people that don't have 9 (yet) and/or are too lazy to even go for it.
- people that think the level is boring.
- people that think the current WR leader page looks ugly and have a personal problem with it.
- people that gets disappointed every time a Duel WR is posted on the forums.
- people that dislike the fact that the level is multi-tied.
- people that either don't care about PD, have never competitively played PD, or haven't played PD in a long time.
- people that in this case are subjective.

Players that want Duel/Duel 9 to stay (and often for multiple of these following reasons combined):

- people that would be affected if it gets removed (mostly lower ranked players).
- people that would lose achievement(s) from it.
- people that do have 9 and in the majority of cases put hours into it.
- people that likes the level for its specialness or whatever.
- people that have no issues with the WR leader page.
- people that have no issues with 9 being posted as a WR.
- people that see no harm in the level being multi-tied.
- people that care about PD and have played the game competitively.
- people that in this case are objective.

[TheFlash]

If it's not an untied, who cares.

~T

[RWG]

Really Axel?  You really think that my arguments of "it's unlocked by beating training exercises, therefore it's a training exercise" and "it doesn't fall into the story of PD nor does it have it's own story like Maian, WAR, MBR" are SUBJECTIVE arguments?  Really?

Do you need a definition for the terms subjective and objective?

The only thing subjective in this whole discussion is the fact that you consider Duel 9 "an achievement." 

[AZ]

If I would've thought that being subjective I obviously would've listed it. I didn't. I guess I over-simplified a bit. Of course those arguments aren't subjective, just as Duel being a level, it having A/SA/PA, best time saved on it etc aren't subjective either.

The only thing subjective in this whole discussion is the fact that you consider Duel 9 "an achievement."  

 

Also, there are tons of unproven times on the rankings [...]. There are plenty of Duel 9s with no videos

[RWG]

What is the intention of you using my quote there?  If anything, it proves that the community as a whole considers Duel such a joke that you can get WRs on it without videos and no one will raise questions or care. 

This quality is in fact UNIQUE TO DUEL and if anything, gives MORE evidence as to why it is different and why it should not be considered a stage, nor on the rankings.

[RK]

I feel like whether you like it or not, the duel is a part of PD. Sure, it doesn't really require any strafing skills, but it is still a level and should therefor be on the rankings.

I think that not getting your initials up on the board for a 9 is a good compromise.

Posting it in the WR topic should be allowed.