Author Topic: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas  (Read 45462 times)

Wyst3r

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Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« on: February 28, 2014, 02:31:42 pm »
Been alot of new strat stuff lately and no dedicated place to discuss them/ask questions (i'd rather keep the facts topic related to facts only,) so i figured a new topic might be in order.

I was experimenting with beginning strats on Control SA/00A today and came across this:


(This vid is just a proof-of-concept, obviously you can go much much faster)

In case you didn't notice, i managed to kill the far guard (the one who stands around the corner) without going anywhere near him. The trick is that the death of the 2nd farthest guard can sometimes lure the far guard, if the death animation throws him backwards, so he can be seen around the corner. The animations that can do this are:

#2
#4
#9
#10
#12
#15


These don't guarantee he'll be lured though, and i think it's because there are 2 versions of each, mirroring each other. So getting the "left" version or the "right" version might be the key.

I also played around with another strat, the same that i got 4:13 with:


As you can see, it's quite fast since i make it back to elevator without re-opening it. The point here is, i usually suck at the beginning and can't get anywhere near this kind of speed with wr strat yet. (very few poeple can) So this might be a good alternative. You can save some time by killing first 3 guard in a single PP7 clip too. Not sure how close to wr speed this can get.

Here's the 4:13 run too:


Lost a bunch of time since i was slow and elevator closed on Nat.


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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2014, 07:20:04 pm »
I think Karl made a similar thread back when he found the new B2 strat however that's probably on page 5 or something now.  :kappa:

Really good stuff though, hopefully we can see some untieds coming from this.  :D
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Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2014, 02:50:34 pm »
Another beginning strat which fairly easy to do and very fast:


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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2014, 03:09:23 pm »
Wow that strat actually does seem really good.  Crushing the lift close without even closing and reopening it.

Ace will prob get 355/400/400 soon.
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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2014, 03:23:38 pm »
Its not super optimal but its good for getting sub 4:10 starts from my noobie point of view. Something I should use
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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2014, 09:24:46 pm »
With that last control strat do you ever get hit by drones? How consistent do you get it. Also why you not get good time yet with that start.
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Illu

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2014, 10:12:56 pm »
James you're hurt!

That would be a cool way to get a PR, getting hit in the first room, who knows maybe it changes the storyline a bit and Nat finishes protect faster :smokin:  :kappa:

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2014, 10:26:42 pm »
LOL imagine if taking damage in the first room changed her script so she only took 7500 frames to complete B instead of 8500.
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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2014, 10:27:40 pm »
You can get way faster beginnings than that the normal way, though...
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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2014, 11:17:44 pm »
Dave is just jealous because he didn't find the strat.
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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2014, 12:40:33 am »
Yeah but now "bad players" ranked between 4th and 8th will be able to cake sub 4:10 SA and the top 3 will get very mad.
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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2014, 12:45:04 am »
 :nesquik:
teh peoples champ

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2014, 12:47:41 am »
They'll be mad but they still won't do anything about it. The only way to make them play is for me to get 359 on Control SA/00a. Give me 47+ years.
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Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2014, 05:49:37 am »
Quote
You can get way faster beginnings than that the normal way, though...

Well, most poeple don't have those human TAS skillz :kappa: But yeah, the wr strat can be done insanely fast, it's just very hard to do so for most poeple. It's much more skill based than my strat.

Quote
With that last control strat do you ever get hit by drones? How consistent do you get it.

It's very common to get hit by the first drone once after killing first guard (should be expected). Other than that, it's mostly based on your own aim-skills and a bit of luck with the guards not charging at you. I often make it back as the elevator closes, but that's mostly because i fucked up the aiming and failed to kill a guard quickly.

Quote
Also why you not get good time yet with that start.

I've been playing around with alot of beginning strats and haven't used this one for very long. In the run in my video, i got trolled at the protect, otherwise i probably would've had a sweet time now.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 05:55:41 am by Wyst3r »

Illu

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2014, 01:24:50 pm »
couple ideas for control:

Shoot somewhere when running to protect, or beginning area, in order to alert some guards to open doors (don't know if possible).

Back up sooner when getting Nat, her message can still pop out but you might risk her not seeing you (don't know if this saves time.

Also didn't know or might have forgot that if you get really injured in the first area then Nat replies something along the lines of: "oh dear that didn't go to well at all" :P

Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2014, 01:55:50 pm »
Unfortunately neither of those ideas are possible/save time. (most guards are deaf)

I tried on several occasions recently to make guards open doors. Some of the stuff i tried:

- Luring a guard during cinema from drone room with 2.3. He actually will open the first brown door before "i'm coming, james" but it'll close long before you get there.

- Luring a guard from the 2nd floor of protection area from the beginning (by shooting in a corner). The distance to the guard is actually not that far, but still too much appareantly.

- Throwing a mine on the brown door after crate area, killing some guards in the hopes of luring the guard standing near the blue door, leading to the end. He can be lured it seems, but the pathfinding is wierd around that door and he will favor warping the brown door, rather than opening the last blue door for us.

- Throwing a mine near the first blue door, to kill one of the guards and lure the other one to open the door for us. Too slow + Can't warp because guards in the way + Bond will have to run through the explosion.

So yeah, no hopes here really.

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2014, 05:41:27 pm »
So people did always blow up the right table because it is in Natalya's way when she leaves. Wouldn't it be a good idea to destroy it earlier during the "I'm coming, James!" lure so she takes a better path from the stairs to the computer (so also on her way there, not only the leave)? This seems very viable with the new strat.

EDIT:
Recorded both cases and with a destroyed table she was 1 PAL frame = 0.04s faster (bottom of stairs -> The Goldeneye is set to fire on London!). Doesn't mean much with such a video measurement. Her path barely changed.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 06:59:11 pm by OHMSS »

Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2014, 07:16:05 pm »
Yeah i think i tested it at some point and didn't measure any significant difference. Dunno if it's any different on the way back (kinda doubt it).

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2014, 08:25:40 pm »
longshot:

if you can get a guard to open that first room brown door from the drone room lure, can you skip the guards and get behind it? will they ever open it and chase you out?
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Luke

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2014, 12:41:48 am »
force that brown door open, run to it and close/ open it from behind, kill guards and get nat while door stays open..?
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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2014, 02:54:22 am »
I messed around with some stuff on slow animation tonight;

1) I blocked Natalya's path from the lift to the first computer.  If you block her long enough (easy to do on slow mo) then BOTH messages appear at the same time.  ie: "Hmm the blast door" etc shows and the door opens, and then "Got one open!" appears a few frames later.

On normal mode however, this doesn't seem to work.  I put on a lot of health on 007 mode and just shot Natalya to delay her for like 40+ seconds, but the messages did not appear at the same time.  Weird.

2) With slow mo on, I mashed B at the brown door to the "last" mainframe while Natalya was running down the stairs to the computer.  As soon as she said "The Goldeneye is set to fire on London!" the door opened, and she didn't yell at me for being too far away.

With slow mo off, this doesn't work.  She yells at you for being too far away BEFORE she says "The GE set to fire on London."

These differences were really weird.  I think we all need to grind a bunch of stuff like this until something clicks.

I also tried;

- blowing up the drone room mf from "upstairs" on the middle floor.  You can throw the mine through the rock wall but it seems to go nowhere.  It lands in unloaded no man's land like when you throw a grenade to a different level on Cradle.

- doing the protect from UPSTAIRS on the top floor.  There is at least one spot on the right side, near where the last 2 panes of glass join, where you are close enough to do it.
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Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2014, 05:33:39 am »
Quote
With slow mo off, this doesn't work.  She yells at you for being too far away BEFORE she says "The GE set to fire on London."

"The GE set to fire on London" message is animation based, so with Slo-mo on this would be delayed quite a bit.

Quote
- blowing up the drone room mf from "upstairs" on the middle floor.  You can throw the mine through the rock wall but it seems to go nowhere.  It lands in unloaded no man's land like when you throw a grenade to a different level on Cradle.

I've spent quite a bit of time trying to find a throw like that. Like you said though, doesn't work.

Quote
- doing the protect from UPSTAIRS on the top floor.  There is at least one spot on the right side, near where the last 2 panes of glass join, where you are close enough to do it.

Actually if you duck, then it's possible to stay in many different spots upstairs, for example at the glass next to the stairs or the glass next to the BA.

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2014, 07:05:32 pm »
Quote
- doing the protect from UPSTAIRS on the top floor.  There is at least one spot on the right side, near where the last 2 panes of glass join, where you are close enough to do it.

Actually if you duck, then it's possible to stay in many different spots upstairs, for example at the glass next to the stairs or the glass next to the BA.

Is this useable to make DLTK protect easier/consistent?
sexy, this

Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2014, 08:08:38 pm »
No, it's a terrible idea to be there because black hat guards will always find you (and kill you). Plus they can spawn up there. Also it'd be near impossible to protect Nat.

Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2014, 05:37:17 am »
Quote
yeah bcks that's not a bad idea, but it should go in the strats thread or another thread.

Quote
Really stupid idea.
With the new caverns sa mine over the wall strat, any chance that works with modems?
frigate or possibly dam 00 from mainframe area.

I know this will get shot down very quickly, but I never seen anybody suggest or mention if it works for modems.

Bumping this topic.

I tested the plastique's quickly on Silo 00A and while it was possible to throw a plastique through a door and into the rooms, the game didn't register them as completing the objective. I'd be very surprised if bugs/modems worked any differently.

Also something i noticed a while back, if the Frigate bug lands on the helicopter while the helicopter itself is unloaded, it'll land on it's collision box, not the helicopter itself. (so it'll float in midair). This does not complete the objective.

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2014, 01:04:30 pm »
An idea I've always wanted to try but am not good enough to execute it properly:

Use 2.x at the beginning of Bunker 1 00A. A guard will open the first two doors for you, and you can switch back to 1.2 at your first pause by Boris? Maybe a GC stick is ideal here so you don't have to CC anything.

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2014, 01:24:44 pm »
Curious what that would save, since you have to open the door before you can go anywhere at full-speed right? Or can you open the door in the cutscene? By shooting bullets and luring a guard?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 01:30:21 pm by Shadow »

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2014, 02:54:19 pm »
Getting the cinema where a guard is coming out of MF room lets you lure that guard into opening the first 2 doors for you...

404

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2014, 03:08:32 pm »
Curious what that would save, since you have to open the door before you can go anywhere at full-speed right? Or can you open the door in the cutscene? By shooting bullets and luring a guard?

As usual, the answer is: Watch the TAS :kappa:

IIRC this strat was discussed a while ago and there was some major problem with it like the guard being too slow or blocking you almost every time or something, not sure. And ofc you'd have to wait for the right cinema on a level that is horrible already.

Something else: On Dam 00A, is there really no feasible way to lure a guard to open the door to the mainframe room to save a sec? Like shooting a full Kf7 clip near the last crates (can't test anything myself atm)?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 03:15:25 pm by OHMSS »

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2014, 03:37:45 pm »
Thanks for the link. I imagine waiting for the right-cinema, a good start, AND a grenade would be mind-numbing. Degeneracy at its best ;)

Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2014, 03:39:23 pm »
The guard strat would be too inconsistent i'm fairly sure? Getting past him is difficult and then you gotta wait out the cinema as well. Add to that grenade odds and you've got yourself a nice grind :p

It's worth comparing with the most up-to-date TAS. This strat is 23 frames slower in this case (0.38333 seconds). (Note: This TAS aims for real-time, not in-game time)

Compared to the normal strat, it can save up to 0.5 seconds. Downside being you need to headshot the guard running for the alarm, and you'll alert 2 more guards.

Quote
Something else: On Dam 00A, is there really no feasible way to lure a guard to open the door to the mainframe room to save a sec? Like shooting a full Kf7 clip near the last crates (can't test anything myself atm)?

I remember trying a bunch of different methods a few years ago, but it turned out to be impossible to lure the guards in a good way.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 03:45:15 pm by Wyst3r »

bcks

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2014, 08:04:23 pm »
Quote
yeah bcks that's not a bad idea, but it should go in the strats thread or another thread.

Quote
Really stupid idea.
With the new caverns sa mine over the wall strat, any chance that works with modems?
frigate or possibly dam 00 from mainframe area.

I know this will get shot down very quickly, but I never seen anybody suggest or mention if it works for modems.

Bumping this topic.

I tested the plastique's quickly on Silo 00A and while it was possible to throw a plastique through a door and into the rooms, the game didn't register them as completing the objective. I'd be very surprised if bugs/modems worked any differently.

Also something i noticed a while back, if the Frigate bug lands on the helicopter while the helicopter itself is unloaded, it'll land on it's collision box, not the helicopter itself. (so it'll float in midair). This does not complete the objective.

Well, you tested the afterthought ideas, can you test dam 00 from below?(the idea, why I originally posted) It might yield different results then a heli. Caverns sa, made me think, what if there was a way to keep the dam 00 ceiling unloaded, and chuck the modem up, instead of pausing at the gate, and before tagging the mainframe.

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2014, 11:45:04 pm »
^ So instead of doing a safe pause / easy throw, you want to pause in the basement and do an insanely hard throw while being shot at by five guards to save little to no time? :-|

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2014, 11:46:56 pm »
The Tier 1 relevant players all tested the "Dam 00A from below" strat for a good 30-40 minutes one night on I think Luke's stream.
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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2014, 05:35:59 am »
^ So instead of doing a safe pause / easy throw, you want to pause in the basement and do an insanely hard throw while being shot at by five guards to save little to no time? :-|

Mainly was just wondering if it was possible, based on the new strat for caverns sa, and if it might save time.(if possible)
You still gotta wait the final door opening, before mainframe too, so pausing for modem there, would be optimal.

Ryan, Did henrik test it on tas?

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2014, 07:35:15 pm »
The modem throw is definitely possible, but it would save minimal time and it's not really realistic to do. I got a few to seemingly stick on the screen using Infinite Ammo, but I'm not sure if it's properly loaded for it to actually work. The objective cannot go from failed to complete, so to tell if it actually completes requires getting it on the first try.

This is the left/right angle you want to throw it at though. For visual reference, align the top of your screen to have a 1/3 slope across the top row: http://i.imgur.com/tklwlhw.png

Also from down there, you can throw a grenade to blow up the alarm, but I don't think there are any guards that drop grenades on Dam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_imXqsaFbZw

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2014, 05:59:10 pm »
so like, might aswell post this here too:

http://www.twitch.tv/illudude/c/4912876

running Xenia 00A, I guess everyone knows it's possible, it's just ridic to pull off :P but yea it did happen, too bad I failed the ladder warp by switching weapons a frame or so too early

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2014, 04:01:31 pm »
I came up with an experiment today to figure out how much the pause trick can save on console. When testing on emulator, i noticed that if you have a weapon such as the Watch Laser out, and then pause, the timer will at one point "jump". The length of this jump seems to correspond almost exactly with the length of the pause-lag and therefor also the potential time saved by using the pause trick. So i tested this at the end of PAL Train i got the following result:

Possible time save using the pause-trick seems to be ~0.2 seconds. (+- 0.05'ish seconds probably)

(Note: Emulator saves around 0.35 - 0.40 seconds)

I don't know what kind of factors could affect this value, if any. Probably worth testing on NTSC as well (can't do this myself though, since my DVD recorder doesn't handle NTSC well). Other levels with on-screen timers would be nice to test as well (most important of all, Cradle).

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2014, 06:56:18 pm »
hey guys,im new to the forum and goldeneye speedrunning. my best time for agent is about 45 minutes,what are some basic knowledge things i can do to improve my times?

Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2014, 07:21:37 pm »
Your question would probably fit better in this topic:

http://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=14793.0

Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2014, 01:49:48 pm »

Saved 23 frames in this case (0.383333 seconds). Might've been more if I had let go of speed/started backstrafing with old strat.

Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2014, 03:28:16 pm »

Roughly 21 frames faster (0.35 seconds).

Warping would still the best method obviously.

Aztec Exemplar

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2014, 06:52:55 pm »
Was actually sorta doing that on stream last night. Might start doing it depending on how hard it is.
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Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2014, 06:17:34 pm »
Who said anything about a floor pattern?  :nesquik:


28 frames (0.4666667 seconds) saved on this one. I've been able to do this 3 runs in a row on console, and had pretty good consistency. However, only during the first 15 min or so of the session, after that i can't seem to get it at all for like an hour.

Did have a great run with this strat where i managed a perfect hit on the last baron in the chest, but he decided to completely ignore it and survive... I'm not sure if i'll continue using this strat or not.

Dunno if this strat is better than warp strat for 44. Warp is a bit faster for sure, but i haven't checked by how much. At least it's a new TAS strat.

Sidenote: I found like 5 other ways of doing the GG room without following the regular floor pattern. None useful for speedruns though. Might make a vid of them for fun though.

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2014, 06:42:58 pm »
Very nice find once again.

Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2014, 10:23:40 am »

NOTE: It's probably better to do 4th cam before documents.

The 10-second rule for guard lures means if we shoot in roughly the same spot as 00A, or slightly closer, he will (hopefully) get there quick enough so that he can continue his run. With some more luck, he will be just outside the CCTV tape room when we get there. This is all kinda random though (because other guards might interfere), and he might end up too fast, or too slow.

Still not sure how this compares to old strat in terms of speed. I think it's a few second faster but it's really hard to tell since i'm completely unable to fail 44's with either strat, no matter how many cameras i skip :kappa: If Marc would be willing to test this, i'm sure he could tell pretty quickly if it was faster or not.

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2014, 10:36:14 am »
Wow, if this works it would make the level even more troll so 44 is probably still gonna be difficult even if this would save 2 sec or whatever, nice find anyways.

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2014, 10:44:59 am »
Clemens will shoot down this strat ASAP, but let's see his reaction when I get 0:42 with it in 2016.

Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2014, 10:50:48 am »
Quote
Wow, if this works it would make the level even more troll so 44 is probably still gonna be difficult even if this would save 2 sec or whatever, nice find anyways.

The camera route should be quite a bit easier though, so it might not be as bad as you think. Still, i'm not sure how bad the clipboard guard odds are.

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2014, 10:56:18 am »
that looked like a somewhat okay run and was 48

looks slower if anything :nesquik: awesome idea and find though... would be ridic if i ends up being the WR strat
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