Author Topic: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas  (Read 44105 times)

Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #350 on: October 06, 2018, 09:32:49 am »
Was testing some Jungle stuff and noticed that looking up/down can actually load the entire level, regardless of where you are (hence why it's so laggy). This also means that you can actually load Xenia's room from the start of the level. In order to alert her though, you still need to have her position on screen, which puts some limits on how far down you can look, and in turn means you can't be *too* far away from her, but still pretty far (maybe there's spot where you can do it even earlier, I didn't check that much).

The farthest I was able to alert her is shortly before the self boost, if you left strafe with a slight lookdown, which puts her past the large tree when you get there:


(Could save 4-5 seconds on DLTK?)

Doing it later puts her in a position that would allow for the old safe strat to be done without any waiting:


It's a bit harder than I thought to hit 9 headshots while she's moving and you're not zoomed in (even when you know her trajectory) so it might not be that useful when going for WRs, though perhaps for an easy 90+ pointer.

Edit: Managed to alert her from where you throw the 3rd mine.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 09:39:05 am by Wyst3r »

Whiteted

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #351 on: October 06, 2018, 02:47:30 pm »
Facility SA / 00A door skip idea

Not sure if I'm missing something on this because it just seems too nice, and for big time saves. It's just an r-lean (or maybe double-r-lean) lure.
Ignoring guards near the throw point for now (they could surely be lured and/or blown up or ignored on SA or killed because the time save will be big anyway):
  • Play level as normal to obj A completion, maybe just using more mine boosts early on.
  • Go to top of the main set of stairs, then up the 3 steps into the section with white tiles, switching to left strafe. Stop here (before the hairpin turn left).
  • r-lean a mine through the portal right of you (it was behind you, but you turned: see pictures), and denote (one of the guards in the side room off of the bottling room)
  • Run to doak (either in the best spot or also the small room where you can do the through-the-glass hand over)
  • Pace to the door, which should start opening before you get there (see numbers below)
  • Kill guard, warp door
  • Job done.

So no pause or waiting for the decoder to do its work, and even save some time waiting for the door to be warp-able (with non-optimal doak or maybe earlier mine boosts or maybe always if my rough numbers below are wrong)

Demonstrating detonation -> door opening is about 8s:

Just by youtube timer I judge Ace's 52 to take about 7s from the r-lean spot to the door and that's with 2 mine-boosts, best doak and it's Ace.

Throw image album:
https://imgur.com/a/vsHNkoY


This throw was made with pretty much no angle upwards (as per my facts post we get 5 upward speed for free, and 16.6666 in the direction we face). The actual velocity that we give it from our throw pales in comparison to the r-lean speed, and so only affects the angle that it leaves at really. Even throwing straight forward, the angle is still out of our field of view, so can go through the portal and into the void. Also the throw comfortably passes through the portal (it's not near the top or the left side)

Pretty much all that I can see going wrong is the detonation point. I know r-leans travel fast but the throw still looks smooth, and mine's explosion 'radius' is big, and we have a little room for change in terms of release angle and position, so I'm confident there are a couple of frames where we can detonate it to kill the target guard, with a good setup.

Comfy 5s save on 2 levels or pile of garbage?
General thoughts?

Also this was essentially the first strat I ever dreamt up, but I didn't know about r-leans then (I was just thinking about using noise). I just went back to it now because I realised I should try my HUD on other levels.
If it's not garbage I'll nail some details down tomorrow.

Edit: hopefully more clarity
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 03:19:38 pm by Whiteted »

ohmss

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #352 on: October 06, 2018, 03:10:28 pm »
  • Go to top of stairs, then unfortunately switch to left strafe
  • r-lean a mine through the portal behind / right of you, and denote at the right moment

What? Could you make this more concise please (this detail especially but also the entire post)?

Edit: Ok your album helps!

Whiteted

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #353 on: October 06, 2018, 03:12:36 pm »
Less concise you mean? I meant to say after the objective a door (editted now), images are clearest really.

Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #354 on: October 06, 2018, 03:39:53 pm »
I had the idea of luring those guards with a mine throw back when the mine-through-wall trick was first discovered (though back then, distance was the issue since R-leaning hadn't been discovered). Then a few years ago, the idea to R-lean it was brought up and tested (from the exact same position you mentioned here). However, despite a perfect throw and detonation (confirmed with Lua map), the guards didn't die from the explosion. Similar to trying to throw a nade into the hut on Cradle, the objects/guards inside it are simply not loaded.

Whiteted

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #355 on: October 06, 2018, 03:56:25 pm »
That's disappointing, are you sure the height was good?
Presumably this is a never-been-loaded thing then, because my detonation works fine when they are unloaded (having loaded them both to plant the mine)
Edit: There's definitely something fishy going on with whether they die or not. Planting a mine in the bottling room and exploding it seems to kill them unloaded, while planting in the room through the glass (really close to the guard we want to lure) doesn't, even though I was in the same spot each time when I detonated. I'll look into the whole business.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 04:13:13 pm by Whiteted »

mcgarbage

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #356 on: October 06, 2018, 05:26:34 pm »

Here is an actual hit, but obv not an actual run.
Should be easier than the old way in theory, but you're still going to get massacred while trying to throw it. It's great to know that you don't gain much distance from strafe-throwing
-Line vertical angle to lights as shown
-Angle slightly right to actually blow up the shit
-Press z when the side of your screen cuts off the middle of the roller door on the right
-Make sure the mine is thrown before you adjust your height
-Straight up

Whiteted

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #357 on: October 06, 2018, 06:47:55 pm »
Hahah NST I love it, and a nice vid.

Yeah getting massacred I didn't really consider, I guess you could unstrafe & shoot to stun, switch and throw? Obviously time losses :/
Another problem may be reaching max speed before the throw on SA (because the move from low-speed to high speed is over like 1s if I remember correctly). This can always be solved by aiming higher. If you get backed just before the throw then aiming for a left glass warp is probably the best chance of a great save. Otherwise you'd have to continue and use the 2nd portal (which is nicer, since it's before an arch) instead (in a sort of late-illu throw), for big time losses. Final strat is throw mines everywhere in rage.

I judged my angle as ~35 degrees by the moment that I pass under the first door, the door on the right is just touching the bottom of the screen, exactly as that video is, I didn't think of the lights. Pretty perfect reference video I think, though I think you want to be a touch further right if you are going to right strafe down the corridor without getting stuck first.

You can throw at slightly lower angle (~31 is pretty much minimal I think, without glass warps) and definitely higher angles, but I haven't worked out which make it easier to unload in time yet. Higher would let us turn right 'significantly' sooner, but means we have to throw a little later so it's a tricky weigh up.

mcgarbage

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #358 on: October 06, 2018, 07:56:44 pm »
Yeah alternative throws could still be cooked up, but if you haven’t tried to do the mine throw on a real run I’d recommend it just to see how insane that area is. You get hit a lot, so staying at full speed and lining up a theoretically more consistent throw will still be a grind

MadmanFlechr

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #359 on: October 08, 2018, 10:35:08 am »
Yeah getting massacred I didn't really consider, I guess you could unstrafe & shoot to stun, switch and throw? Obviously time losses :/

Unstrafe and shoot who exactly? There's normally at least 4-5 guards shooting at you while you try the throw.
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Whiteted

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #360 on: October 08, 2018, 12:44:34 pm »
Fair enough.

Thinking about what mcgarbage said* I realised on the weekend that my 00a obj-b room idea can be adapted to work on SA and should let you clear out the 3 guards in the left portion of the room without much of a time loss. Someone stole me away to work on AF1 but I'll probably work on it next weekend.

Inspiration is three points:
  • Travelling to the stairs is nearly all wasted time: we want to go left
  • Mine -> AR switch is a bottleneck
  • Sitting on the stairs leaves you pretty exposed
(with 1 and 2 wasting time together)

Broad idea is shoot the 2 individual consoles from the room's entrance (where you are nice and safe) by shooting through the ground (consistent if done correctly, you can briefly shut the door in your own face to get into the same spot, could even build speed, or even keep full speed if you are mad).
Only then do you actually enter the room. The console pair I haven't nailed down yet:

If you want speed (could be faster than current strat potentially) then do entrance as above, in and left, take 1 or maybe 2 guards out if you are lucky (unfortunately non-AR guards) before switching to mines. Sharp right and throw a mine. The obj b room is actually divided in 2 by a big long portal, so as you carry on out of the obj b room the lower portion unloads and the mine can bounce consistently. The throw is a bit precise since it needs to go towards the boxes and consoles, to skip into one of these so that it stops. Weirdly it seems like one of the walls may actually still have collisions even when the room unloads but I haven't really looked into it. We might get away with the AR guard alive because he'll try to shoot us for the first time well before the throw, and shouldn't get a 2nd chance.

If you want safety you can actually shoot left from the entrance first, probably with r-aimer, to kill the far non-AR guard. This alerts near AR guard (shot passed nearby) and the AR guard. Then take out the two single consoles. If you do the right one quickly then the near non-AR guard will actually get in the way of taking out the second one, so r-aimer will take them both. In and left, take AR guard easily, 'loads' of time to set for the mine throw.

Alternatively for safety you can keep the AR for the whole process (would probably need 45 ammo but that's okay on SA?) taking the 2 consoles, in, 2 non-AR guards, reload, AR guard, stop. Turn, shoot the console pair (neat thing is that they are behind one another from here).

Turret is going to be the big issue I think, but no doubt there are other holes to be poked in the whole idea.

* I do also need to actually play the level
Edit: there's also an insane strat where you take out the pair of consoles from the entrance with a tricky mine throw through the roof of the ceiling (throwing it while the door is closing is easier for bonus points) but it's just too slow since you have to look away (up) for a long time else the mine collides on re-entry.

Whiteted

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #361 on: October 13, 2018, 08:13:49 pm »
Caverns Agent ideas : Double boost & 3rd AR catwalk boost & less developed stuff

Double boost: Plant a mine on the box before blowing the box up, pretty much a free boost I think (note I cleared the start of this room):


Main thing I've found is weirdly you can't use the AR, since the mine will nearly always become 'dud', or bounce away from the box ignoring it's explosion, or one time it even blew the other 2 boxes up but didn't boost Bond.
Instead you'll need to either do a triple switch forward (-> unarmed -> PP7 -> ZMG) or not pick up the AR until the guard after this donut room* (if at all) to allow for a back switch.
This vid has pretty good execution, just not correcting Bond's direction very quickly after the throw (I was too busy spamming weapon-switch), and maybe a slightly late throw (we only just get to shoot the ZMG in time).

* Only issue with this is the AR guard before the hairpin turn on the last catwalk, but I'm planning on luring him anyway.

3rd AR boost on the catwalks (2.4 lure) [Updated] : With 2.4 we can lure last AR guard (who can normally back-boost us) in the 2nd cinema.

Luring details: 1 shot in first cinema, 8 in second. Intense button pressing.
I found an easy switch is by buffering the 2nd controller's A and Z, then re-pressing both as the cinema fades in for a double back switch.
Cut the first cinema midway (just late enough to give us full speed at the end of all this).
Then depending on which cinema it was, make 1 shot at some point in the fade out (late in the cinemas of the spiral, early in the other).
Then hold the 2nd controller's Z, to shoot immediately when the 1st cutscene loads (quite a delay). Shoot exactly 8 bullets (bit tricky).

This puts our noise high enough to lure AR guard #3 (noise >= 17.22) but not another guard in the objective A area (noise < 18.28). Since this interval is 1.05 wide, and single shots raise noise by close to 2, we can't hope for any leeway on the number of shots in the second cinema. If we fire 9 it's not the end of the world, since the extra lured guard is easy to squeeze by, but I'm pretty sure he'll block both of the later AR boosts.

This start is particularly tricky since while firing the 8 bullets you need to cut the 2nd cinema (essentially immediately) and open the elevator door (a frame or 2 later). Then stop after 8 and turn hard left at the end of the fadeout as per usual.

The current luring setup also makes the first room really nice, as the very first guard will block Trev's line of sight until we drift out from behind him. This makes it really easy to pass Trev on his left.

The 2nd AR guard lure is timed to make him move unloaded to his nearby pad, but then load back where he started since AR guard #3 beats him to it. He heads for the pad a 2nd time, loaded, and then swings left rather than turning instantly. This puts him further right on the catwalk, out of our way and out of AR guard #3's line of sight on us.

Needs a bit more tweaking but it's looking likely that all 3 boosts will fit in if we show ourselves to AR guard #2 a little earlier (notice in the video we almost slip past him, hiding behind AR#3).

    Previous vid giving the rough idea




Other stuff

Other Agent ideas I'm working on (literally a spoiler)
  • Final turret boost.
        Set lookup before the tunnel, then just after entering the tunnel turn and take out the turret. Turn back, keeping strafe throughout (should be cheaper than a strafe change). The 'first damage wave' should be before you arrive, then the 2nd slightly larger one boosts you forwards. May be possible regardless of cinema timing. Also looks promising :)

  • Final room box boost
        UPDATE: Right strafe does save time if executed well but it's not much, it's hard to do, and it's really easy to lose time. You effectively need to lure a guard out the way, must land last hit on the front of the box, must look back up very fast, and must hope the AR guard at the back doesn't get in the way. On the whole I think it's a no.
        But left strafe (barely a time loss to change strafes if we're taking the turret out anyway?) could still be viable, as it's generally better than right strafe in every way, and fundamentally gives hardly any loss in time if you miss the box / boost (assuming we're in left strafe anyway).

  • Lots of other potential boosts (non AR guards mostly) & generally anything for 1 minute dead.
Month of caverns continues..

Edit: right strafe box boost conclusion: it's crap
Edit: very rough vid of 2.4 cavs lure, more polished vid then more polished strat to come.
Edit: 2.4 lure refined a fair bit, promoted out of the spoiler
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 10:06:49 pm by Whiteted »

Whiteted

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #362 on: October 14, 2018, 12:16:40 pm »
Control & Tile manipulations

Disclaimer: haven't actually got the OOB yet, which is kinda crucial to any application, but that's 'all' that stands in the way of a control door skip now. Both the OOBs below are by editting Bond's position directly.

Summary: If we can get OOB then we can get round control's door. More generally probably any door.

When you go OOB, Bond's current tile (triangle of ground) stays where it was in bounds. This is what's used for determining which room Bond is in and which rooms to properly load, and is a barrier to a breaking control. As demonstrated here, if you go OOB and just run around the door, the next room isn't loaded, and Bond's tile doesn't change:


But you can manipulate the tile while staying out of bounds, moving it underneath the door, so that when you go around the other side, the game sees it as a legitimate step from one tile to it's adjacent tile. This is particularly easy if you go OOB here next to Nat (again, not that I know how yet), where you just slide behind the console, then rub close to the door as shown.


Similar manipulations seem quite easy (if a little slow) going out of bounds anywhere in that corridor, and are bound to be possible in other levels too.

Just need some OOB now..

« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 12:24:51 pm by Whiteted »

Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #363 on: October 14, 2018, 02:41:51 pm »
Cool, that explains alot. From my own testing I knew that you had to walk near or around the doors to switch rooms, but knowing exactly how it works is useful. Guess it makes it difficult/impossible to load rooms later on ín a level, relative to the room you OoB from, since you'd need run alongside the walls or something, hitting every tile along the way?

Btw, the parts of the walls that stick out a bit (like near a corner) seem like decent candidates for the invisibility OoB, similar to Streets/Bunker 2. Probably worth testing.

Whiteted

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #364 on: October 14, 2018, 04:08:33 pm »
I'm not quite sure how going behind the console in that vid changes the tile, but that appears to be a bit of a quirk. The general method seems to require going slightly back into bounds to move the tile, which gets you stuck in the wall, then weapon switch to get back out. There also seem to be barriers which move as our tile changes, so I found I had to run a loop around the properly loaded bit each time I wanted to move tile. Basically the general version is very slow, but I've by no means optimised it.. doesn't seem very useful without the actual OOB.

Yeah I was thinking the best chance that we understand would be running into the wall so that when Nat teleports to her pad she somehow does whatever happens in the streets OOB. The corner there is too far away from the pad though.

Only other tools in my toolbox is that we can basically position Nat where we like using her teleport, and Joris found that you can get Nat basically OOB


Ray Ruane

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #365 on: October 15, 2018, 06:16:49 pm »
This is probably nothing, but you never know. I was thinking about the new cradle strategy, how something so obvious had just been overlooked for so long. Then I started thinking about Surface 2 00 Agent. Is it really optimal to take out the cameras in this way? Since the level was first being played, you had to go to that hut with the key guard in it. Then when the grenade strategy was discovered, it just felt normal to shoot that camera first, even though you have to veer a decent bit out of your way from the 2nd and 3rd cameras.

Then I got thinking that that first hut is pretty close to the satellite building, helicopter and bunker (the exit). I tried lobbing some grenades at the hut with cheats on. At first I couldn't get anywhere near the camera, but when I started chucking the grenades ON THE ROOF of the hut, I got it instantly. We know that you can get at least 2 grenades off of guards on the level. This was done without an r-lean. The throw is moderately difficult without it.

Again, probably nothing, but I just thought that I'd share it anyways. You never know.

JDBlack21

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #366 on: October 15, 2018, 11:47:55 pm »
This is probably nothing, but you never know. I was thinking about the new cradle strategy, how something so obvious had just been overlooked for so long. Then I started thinking about Surface 2 00 Agent. Is it really optimal to take out the cameras in this way? Since the level was first being played, you had to go to that hut with the key guard in it. Then when the grenade strategy was discovered, it just felt normal to shoot that camera first, even though you have to veer a decent bit out of your way from the 2nd and 3rd cameras.

Then I got thinking that that first hut is pretty close to the satellite building, helicopter and bunker (the exit). I tried lobbing some grenades at the hut with cheats on. At first I couldn't get anywhere near the camera, but when I started chucking the grenades ON THE ROOF of the hut, I got it instantly. We know that you can get at least 2 grenades off of guards on the level. This was done without an r-lean. The throw is moderately difficult without it.

Again, probably nothing, but I just thought that I'd share it anyways. You never know.


You would be taking more of a detour going on your route than you would simply firing one clip at the cam first things first. With the current route you break your line for three second at most with firing one clip, throwing a nade on the way to the helicopter seems like it diverges from your line much more.
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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #367 on: October 16, 2018, 02:26:54 am »
Not to mention you would be combining window strat with double nade strat
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Whiteted

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #368 on: October 16, 2018, 03:03:55 am »
Just having a quick look in the GE editor (always the thing to do in such situations) I think the idea has a lot of potential except that it needs 2 nades.
The first detour is deceptively far out of the way, and for the final throw you could head somewhat towards the helicopter rather than directly for the hut. You also could possibly even throw before the camera was loaded then run close enough for it to be loaded.

Also hypothetically you might be able to shoot the cam through the back side of the hut, it's a shame there's no building there to do a clip shot over. Actually with some more looking on GE editor there could be a shot back through the treeline at the end. It would have to be close enough to the camera to load it, but it could well be less of a detour than the first.

I definitely like it :)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 03:18:30 am by Whiteted »

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #369 on: October 16, 2018, 03:29:35 am »
Would make the level a lot easier actually if it was less precise than a one clip first cam normally
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Ray Ruane

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #370 on: October 16, 2018, 04:20:36 am »
Forgot to mention that I played out a few dummy runs. I'm pretty sure that the optimal line would be to go behind the safe key hut where a guard is walking. It's pretty much a guaranteed boost from him, because it's 00 Agent. The angle for the second camera feels a lot more natural as well. It might be the easiest camera in the game for me now and I can't even see the bastard. I compared these dummy runs to dummy runs using Clemens' strategy and my strategy was a few seconds faster and this was done by going up to the very top of the hill after the satellite building.

Of course, this is all assuming that my strategy works at all. Just my two cents.

On a side note, if it ever is confirmed to be possible then I'd love to see some sort of TAS for it.

Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #371 on: October 16, 2018, 01:02:29 pm »
Fooled around with this a few months ago, though my idea was to R-lean a nade from outside the satellite building. I think the problem I ran into was that I couldn't blow up the cam, but I guess it simply wasn't loaded?

Whiteted

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #372 on: October 16, 2018, 01:48:55 pm »
Just my two cents.
Would like to see your idea of a dollar strat, because this is looking better and better the more I look at it.

Considering optimal lines to take the traditional shot, and giving both strats a common target of the corner of the safe compound (which is generous on the current strat) I work out the saving as 3.57 seconds (pretty conservative, 4s is probably reasonable)

As I hoped you can take the camera out through the treeline, and it's quite nice because the camera's lens is square on (even though we are behind it), so 1 shot kills have a bigger target. Also there's the treeline & line of the ground to line up with, so shooting blind shouldn't be too tricky.
Easier with a nice HUD though (all those bullet marks confused me but they were from testing the camera unloading):


I've got to work out the loss in the final line from the satellite building to the bunker, but it should be a bit less. Not sure about a lot but we'll see. Edit: it loses 3.2 seconds, so breaking pretty even unfortunately. See mad strat below.

And if we do use 2 nades then there's very little loss in the final line (maybe 1s, required to bump out towards the camera to load it), and the time spent shooting the first cam (2s on the WR run) will instead be r-leaning a nade. So this is like a 4s TAS untied strat, but for a human that's a long grind and a lot of pressure on the r-lean?

Edit: oh and the boost for +0.3 :smiley:
Edit: loss calculated :/
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 02:19:21 pm by Whiteted »

Ray Ruane

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #373 on: October 16, 2018, 01:59:36 pm »
Yes the r-lean at the very end of the level would be absolutely maddening to play, akin to the black box luck on Statue, but it's 2018 and it's either this or clutching the fuck out of the old strategy. Assuming this works mind. Getting 2 grenades at the start of the level is also extremely inconsistent although I don't know about getting grenades from other guards.

Thanks for the video though. Very cool to see. I'll fool around with the level later on.

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #374 on: October 16, 2018, 02:34:01 pm »
Not to be negative , but I have a few things to say.

Firstly when saying how much a strat saves, keep in mind nobody really cares how much time something saves in a TAS. what we want to know is how much it saves in a real run and under legitimate conditions.

For surface 2 00, we always empty an entire or close to entire clip at first camera.  If you are going to say it saves 4 seconds,  you have to take that into account.

Secondly I have no idea what methods you used to time it, but I ran tests and it's clearly not faster. I failed 122 with a total Yolo run and no grenade,  just randomly shooting 4 bullets backing up through the trees, no further away or closer than the video you linked and no hesitation . This run could easily have been 121 the normal way.

Thirdly,  why would you use the 2nd nade to throw at first cam from far away when 120 was already doable 2 nades the normal way? Unless you do some crazy r lean which will never happen, and since the cam has to be loaded anyway, it doesn't make sense how it would be faster.

Just some things to consider before throwing around times, but it's nice that new things are still being found.
teh peoples champ

Whiteted

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #375 on: October 16, 2018, 02:40:34 pm »
RE ray: There's nothing to stop it working, the satellite is too far away from the cam (> 4000 when the camera loads at 3000), which explains the r-leaned nade not working from here, but bumping out en route to the end this won't be much loss (it's well inside the line to shoot through the trees as in my vid there).

Also I've had a idea to reduce the loss on the final line for shooting through the trees (the 3.2s):

Requirements: 1 nade.
  • Ray's line to Cams 2 and 3
  • (Cam 3 through the trees would be make even bigger savings for this strat*)
  • Shoot the cam inside the satellite building through the higher up back window (pretty sure there's a nice spot to do this)
  • Pass by the right of the satellite building (detour to take out cam 1 is now much reduced)
  • 'Flick' left and throw nade to destroy console (from as far right as possible)
  • Head to tree line to finally take out cam #1
  • Head to end of level

Actually lots more possible spots to take cam #1 are opened up from this side. I've shot it from the sniper tower near the satellite building too: it seems you can clip shot through the ground there or some wizardry. If there's a nice spot there then we'd have even less time loss on the line (comparable to the line to r-lean a nade).

I'll try to make a vid of this later.

* I don't know how much this has been looked into? Icy's Strategy Compendium says "extremely difficult" but it's a huge time save even on the current strat?

Edit: Probably more sensibly, maybe throw the nade to the console a lot earlier.. before shooting the cam through the back window, or just after. Potentially even blow the console up from above with a pretty cool looping throw (if it's possible)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 03:16:02 pm by Whiteted »

Whiteted

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #376 on: October 16, 2018, 02:56:06 pm »
Firstly when saying how much a strat saves, keep in mind nobody really cares how much time something saves in a TAS. what we want to know is how much it saves in a real run and under legitimate conditions.

The saving on the start is to do with lines, so TAS savings translate to real life pretty well. Also things like taking cam 2 out will actually save time in reality with Ray's line, which I haven't counted.

Secondly I have no idea what methods you used to time it, but I ran tests and it's clearly not faster.

I don't think I drew the distinction well enough: going to the treeline means the 3.2s loss at the end (or before my edit I said I was worried it would be almost the 3.6 saved), so you are breaking pretty even as opposed to the 4s gain (r-leaning a 2nd nade, and rounding up 3.6). [Also just thought we could open the door if we're going to be on the right?]. Not sure where the time shooting the first cam in the old strat has gone if you yolo-ed it through the trees but I hope that's somewhat clarified.


Unless you do some crazy r lean which will never happen, and since the cam has to be loaded anyway, it doesn't make sense how it would be faster

Again 4s = crazy r-lean with 2 nades (and I was including time saved not shooting cam 1) which I'd agree is not very human. Loading the cam isn't much of a deviation in the line for a nade because it doesn't need to go through the trees.

with a bit of reordering..
Not to be negative , but I have a few things to say.
Criticism is good.

Secondly I have no idea what methods you used to time it.
Realistic timing of strats that I'm thinking about? Don't be silly :laugh:
But seriously like I say it's just the lines, measuring in GE editor, so should be fair (though possibly also contains errors in my calculations)

Ray Ruane

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #377 on: October 16, 2018, 03:02:55 pm »
I was thinking more of the lines of would it definitely be faster as well as would it work. I could be wrong, but I still can't see how it would be slower than the old strategy unless the first camera is closer to the second camera and third camera than I thought.

I like the sound of that back window strategy as well. Might make destroying the console harder, but seems to be faster in theory anyways.

Thanks for the information anyhow.

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #378 on: October 16, 2018, 04:41:21 pm »
I don't know about getting grenades from other guards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgqm96ZjLmw&t=1m8s
(doesn't necessarily mean the guard is there when you run the more direct route)

IDPTheory

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #379 on: October 22, 2018, 10:28:40 am »
Hello, I noticed when playing Runway Agent the other day that it's possible to 'enter' the plane from the left hand wing without having to wait until Bond has reached the body of the plane.
This got me thinking..
Obviously, firstly, would a direct line to a slightly closer point of entry represent any useful timesave?
And secondly, is anyone able to tell accurately from the code what the exact shape of the 'exit zone' is? I mean, is it shaped like the plane, a half sphere like the pressure plates in Egypt or something else entirely?

(Apologies if this has already been covered in the past).

Whiteted

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #380 on: October 22, 2018, 01:17:08 pm »
The sacred texts say that the condition is
     If object 03 (airplane) activated

Just playing around it does seem weird. I think one of the conditions is being in a sphere which is centered on the middle of the plane somewhere and doesn't quite encompass the length of the plane, so the most direct route is heading to the back of the wings.

But there's also some condition on where you are looking.

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #381 on: October 22, 2018, 01:26:53 pm »
I have a technical question regarding the Cradle 33 strat. When Trev dies and decides to pull a nade, how many possibilities are there for where the nade can go? 256? Less? More? There must be some finite amount. I was wondering if we could map out all the angles and estimate the chances of it blowing up the console. It wouldn't be totally perfect due to some variance with his positioning, but it'd be nice to put a rough, concrete number for it, beyond just 81/256 to pull a nade in the first place.

Supposing that it's 1 in 8 to blow up the console per nade pull, that would give a grand total of ~1 in 25 Trev kills for an A completion. Do any Cradle players have data they can share?

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #382 on: October 22, 2018, 01:40:58 pm »
I think one in 8 nades is pretty reasonable,  so yeah 1 in 25ish kills sounds about right
teh peoples champ

IDPTheory

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #383 on: October 23, 2018, 07:32:34 am »
Thanks Whiteted,
I was finding that looking up (at the wing) last minute allowed me to access the plane further down the wing but it's still not quite the same each time so there must be some other factor at play. Definitely a small gain to be had if this can be manipulated somehow as I notice a lot of current WR runs go right up to the plane before entering.

On an ideal agent run, what is the lowest 22 decimal possible? Seems optimistic but is this something that could contribute to 21 once better understood?


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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #384 on: October 23, 2018, 12:28:10 pm »
Watch more of the 22's, plenty enter at different spots. Plane entry is not the answer to 21.
Former Owner of the "Highest Quality Webcam Stream on Twitch"



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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #385 on: October 23, 2018, 12:48:48 pm »
A lot (probably almost all old 22s) already did enter through the wing. It's not a time save unfortunately .
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Joris

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #386 on: October 24, 2018, 06:06:45 pm »
New Bunker 1 strat (Agent and SA) !  :afro:

I had this idea a long time ago but i thought that it was a bad idea, and it was the 23/10/2018 that i discovered that it was a very good strat after a few runs.
I never duped 17 (i had around 3 17 failed run with current strats) before this strat, and only 1 hour after dicscovering it, i got around 15 17 dupes (even two 17's in a row), i got multiples 3:0 17's (some of them even had stucks). This strat makes 17 very easy to get, you can now get one every 3 to 25 minutes (depends on how good and lucky you are), and it also makes this level less luck dependent.

Here's the video of the new B1 strat:
                                                                                                     One of my very very few 4:0 runs (and the only 4:0 run i didn't choked / i had 3:0 runs that where faster than this one)

How does the strat works?
You need to play the level on 2.4, play the level "normally" but don't pause at the black guards, just run pass them and try to open the door from as far as you can and as early as you can, then try to pause 1 frame later, select the key analyser and when you unpause, just run to the exit and mash "z" hoping Bond analyse and throw the key fast enough before the end of the fade (i tried holding "z" but it felt less consistent).
I was playing the entire level on 2.4 until Alka noticed that you can just play it on 1.2 until the last pause where you need to switch to 2.4 (to be able to analyse the key and throw it during the fade).

I didn't knew if this trick saved time until i got runs like this:

                                                                                                                                                                This is a 2:0 17 + a bad boost behind the table



                                                               Another 17 with two quick pauses at the start and a very bad stuck, and it was still 17. (The "b" press + pause + analyse/throw/exit  were like perfect)

And i was getting runs like this all the time. So i thought that 16 might be easier that way, and the answer is: i don't really know
The thing is, this strat makes you get piles of 17's but 16 seems really hard, i tried to get it and i think that it is possible but only with a 4:0 perfectly executed run, no stucks, and super fast key analyser and exit (you might even need a 5:0 perfect run with 2 boosts at the start + the Buikema boost + 1 boost in the big room + 1 last to boost pass the black guards).
Also the level is less luck dependent but you still need to be lucky enough to get a run without troll black guards. If you quit out at the second pause, you're able to know if the run was a good pace or not (16 quit out = ~17 pace, so you need a 15 quit out to get very low 17, high 16 pace (and 15 quit out is possible, i got around 15 15's quit out where i choked the "b" press 90% of the time). And if you exit the level without completing the Goldeneye key objective, you can know if the run was a 17 or 18 etc... (i never had a 16 failed run) and also you can get a TNS if you complete the objective on the last frame.

                                                                                                       This run by Alka is an 18 TNS (sometimes you can clearly hear that Bond threw the Goldeneye key but the objective still fails)

Alka also noticed that it could be a good strat for B1 SA where instead of doing the second pause at the glass, you directly run to the door and do the strat, i'm not saying it makes 19 possible, but it could at least get us closer to it. Overall i think this strat could be usefull to anyone who wants to get 17 (it still requires you to consistently get nicely executed starts / runs, for 17 pace). And that now Bunker 1 Agent is less luck dependent.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 07:56:12 pm by Joris »

Icy

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #387 on: October 24, 2018, 06:18:45 pm »
This is fucking amazing! Godlike strat, Joris!

So now we get a faster ending, we can run in full speed to the door (rather than breaking it for the Key Analyzer pause), but we lose a little boost potential. 16 and even 20 should be way easier now, and 17 and decent SA times would be free. You could even use this as a safe strat on 00A for more time for other objectives when you're new to the level.

Who's going to tie 0:16 first? :v

Joris

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #388 on: October 24, 2018, 06:24:39 pm »
i don't know, 0:16 really need a 10/10 execution and 4:0 boosts

Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #389 on: October 25, 2018, 01:05:04 am »
I know I tested this strat back when Karl was doing 16 attempts, and it was probably even discussed in twitch chat at some point (?). Cant remember why I dropped it, but most likely because I couldnt save time with it. That said, consistency is important too :)

ohmss

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #390 on: October 25, 2018, 03:23:59 am »
That's some nice thinking. gg tbh

Let's see some B2-A-style glass door warps on B1 SA now!


decent SA times would be free.

:kappa:

Joris

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #391 on: October 25, 2018, 08:39:41 am »
I think 0:16 is possible with this strat, but you would need an insane start like this one https://clips.twitch.tv/BumblingNimbleLyrebirdEleGiggle with an insane ending like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu2JcuUk5iQ&feature=youtu.be on the same run to get 0:16. So this is still a tier 4, tier 5 time

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #392 on: October 25, 2018, 10:24:08 am »
RIP Ace! 20 is gone forever, RIP untied! :nesquik: :kappa: #ripace #bunker1SAWRexposed #karmaforsayingClemens53isntSophisticated

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #393 on: October 25, 2018, 12:48:40 pm »
Yeah, I think all I needed on that run is a standard ok ending though . If you compare with my 16 fail,  I was like half a second faster to the last pause probably. 
teh peoples champ

Joris

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #394 on: October 25, 2018, 06:01:27 pm »

Time was untied when set.

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #395 on: October 25, 2018, 06:33:31 pm »
Honestly,  16 might be easier or just as hard the old way. You need at least 15.4 pause which requires 4 boosts i believe and a lot of runs I get the perfect late boost out and can't finish scanning the key anyway. It was fun using a new strat but honestly I think in the big picture 16 is just as hard regardless
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iriebutler

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #396 on: November 06, 2018, 03:29:31 am »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QgrRDVuwEk

Clem's new 4th cam strat, i executed it pretty well here, good demonstration vs the way ace did his cam on his 44 which he highly recommends not using
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 09:37:26 pm by iriebutler »
*Inventor of thumb condoms*

Joris

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #397 on: November 08, 2018, 06:48:45 pm »
I always wondered if it was possible to kill the second Baron that way, he would probably be unloaded but idk


Wyst3r

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #398 on: November 09, 2018, 12:44:23 am »
I've tested shots like that many times in the past (mainly from the stairs outside GG room) without success. I don't remember how thorough I was but it didn't seem very hopeful at least. It's a cool route though.

Guado

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Re: Post/Discuss new Strats/Timesavers/Ideas
« Reply #399 on: Yesterday at 07:45:52 am »
I was playing Facility Agent and for whatever reason threw a mine near the boxes in the first hallway. I got a boost down the hallway and another from the exploding boxes on the other side of the wall once I was in the room with the security door. I know nade boosts are tight but this felt like a possible timesave in the future. Have video of the incident. Hope to post in a few hours.
Nearing fully proved times pages