Author Topic: PD Strategy Discussion Topic  (Read 16027 times)

Icy

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #100 on: January 09, 2017, 08:40:17 pm »
Maybe closed doors cannot be penetrated in PD? (like Caverns SA old strat, where you need the keycard when doing obj.C with the AR33)

Correct. The King also is invincible when the room is unloaded.

Wouter Jansen

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2017, 08:08:43 am »
maybe the new ruins strat can be applied to war somehow? use a skedar to drop off for a moment and kill the king and get back up? perhaps you can use the king for this too?

edit: never mind, if I remember correctly, the problem isn't the king but the door needing to be opened. still curious if you can use the ruins strat to kill the king as well
sexy, this

Boss

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #102 on: January 19, 2017, 10:35:51 pm »
Big Bossman - Extraction Perfect Agent - SA Door Strat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeyEaZgZJ74

This run is enough proof that it can be done on the 64 version.  :nesquik:

Aztec Exemplar

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #103 on: January 19, 2017, 11:37:08 pm »
time save?
"Time's a teacher spitting since I was tying sneakers" - Jus

Selenium Webdriver

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #104 on: January 20, 2017, 12:34:15 am »

AZ

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #105 on: January 20, 2017, 04:26:11 am »
How sick

Illu

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #106 on: January 20, 2017, 06:31:26 am »
so sick

ZeroRBDash15

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #107 on: January 20, 2017, 03:23:23 pm »
I remember bringing this up during Clemens grind for 1:28 when Timokles got that 1:15 on XBLA with the SA door strat. Glad to finally see that is in the realm of possibility on N64 now.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 03:30:31 pm by ZeroRBDash15 »
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Boss

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #108 on: January 20, 2017, 10:22:01 pm »
I would guess it saves around 7 sec over 128 method but not really sure yet.


sgrieve

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #110 on: January 23, 2017, 05:53:40 am »
Boss, is there a reason for playing this level on the Japanese version?


flicker

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #111 on: January 23, 2017, 06:12:00 am »
Boss, is there a reason for playing this level on the Japanese version?

"Started using JAP since obj 2 message isn't as much in the way"

I dont see it being in the way, but its a legit reason.

sgrieve

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #112 on: January 23, 2017, 06:28:42 am »
Makes sense, thanks flicker.

dsx

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #113 on: March 03, 2017, 04:18:43 am »
https://youtu.be/ylN5mET8KB0
https://youtu.be/mYbN7wKRHM0

Rescue SA lure

"Could be a many hours strat, but at least we know it works.
Credit to Boss for the initial discovery of course."

posted on behalf of Matt Cook
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Illu

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #114 on: March 21, 2017, 07:14:47 am »

Icy

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #115 on: May 18, 2017, 05:33:27 pm »
War SA/PA - Icy Strat

Kill some Skedar, load the area surrounding the first king to force Skedar respawns to be above on the bridge, and skip going all the way to him. Because his head pokes through the floor of the bridge, you can shoot him as you pass by there. In my attempts, killing the 1st, 4th, and 1st respawn gives the best results, but it is possible with just one Skedar.

I believe this saves time, but this strat alters the spawning significantly, which is important regarding doors, and this is also more difficult to execute.

Thoughts?

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #116 on: May 19, 2017, 05:49:49 am »
The strat is at least 13 years old cause I played around with it when I get the SA/PA records back in the day. It's quicker if you're slow, but if you're really quick (which you can't be anyway if you're killing skedars) the skedars won't be in correct positions to be able to quickly duck out and back to get the skedar to spawn correctly.

So for WR strat it's not quicker but if you find it's easier as a mid pace you can go for it.
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Carathorn

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #117 on: May 19, 2017, 12:57:47 pm »
link to a 2009 topic I made about this strat  https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=14209.msg305809#msg305809

Even uploaded some vids in a rar file about this a long time ago, actually found them back here http://thengamer.com/PD/23-Misc/Carathorn%20-%20War%20alternative%20strat%20vids.rar
these arent worth watching tbqh

I remember giving this a lot of tries back in 2009. I've encounctered an open door behind the first King as well on some occasions, which would mean an even bigger timesave if everything was executed perfectly. But its a ridic strat and never found any consisntency with it. Open door before first king only happened every 2 hours or so.

Icy

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #118 on: May 21, 2017, 11:35:41 pm »
Some runs: semi-legit 41.30ish last door, 42.00 last doors open.

I did some research and developed a methodology for using this strategy. First, you need to kill the first Skedar, have an open door, and kill the first respawn. Arrive at the corner facing the spawn point before ~26.00 and don't leave until at least ~26.35. The earlier you arrive and the later you leave, the greater your chance of the strat working. On the leave, I like to use pause buffering here, but you can full speed it too. So long as you kill the Skedar correctly and the respawn is somewhat nearby the door, this will work very consistently. I get runs constantly and have had two in a row many times. The only issue really is getting an open first door.

SA 45 is very clearly possible, and perhaps 44 as well, but I think the normal strat is better for that. For 46 and slower, I suggest using this. It significantly reduces the skill required, and while there's still luck, it's a bit nicer in that you'll get the same doors open every time. The level is still a lottery, but it's far easier to grind this way.

Now, it's of course possible that a faster Skedar respawn cycle could be used (especially if you include Phoenix self-boosting), but I wasn't able to find one that would work. I also still occasionally get perfectly fine runs that don't work, suggesting there are more details I'm not seeing. My hypothesis is that this works very similarly to the spawning guards on Streets, where what's loaded, the timer, etc all come into play. Maybe Henrik can help figure this out for War?

Other possible improvements compared to how I'm playing is strafing the King shot, self-boosting towards the locked door, and using a full speed setup for the respawn manipulation.

The only major disadvantage I've seen is that the QB shot is a bit trickier since there's usually a pile-up of Skedar around the back door. This isn't an issue for PA of course.

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #119 on: May 22, 2017, 02:30:36 am »
Icy I'll just mention you're screwing up by not using normal gun function for 2nd shot on 1st skedar.
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Icy

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #120 on: May 22, 2017, 07:35:15 am »
The explosive 2nd shot is nice though because of splash damage and health is no issue even if I'm blowing myself up. It's not hard to make pace for the respawn, so why make it (slightly) harder to kill the 1st Skedar?

Boss

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #121 on: June 11, 2017, 10:03:11 pm »
Rescue PA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGg_ahpeTgg

Got this back in March 2017. This run shows the potential pace you can get on PA using the keycard guard lure strat currently done on SA. This would have been around a 2:32 and that was with opening the door to double check if keycard guard was lured (can assume it would be a couple sec faster than this without checking).

Boss

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #122 on: June 18, 2017, 02:36:25 am »
Invest PA - K7 lure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STziRdy8TGs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWFF5rfw_DE

The idea behind this is to find a way to manupulate bot after executing the lure so it can be faster than current PA strat.

Boss

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #123 on: June 25, 2017, 04:12:14 am »
P2 OoB stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wJ-b9lscPM

Shown here include 2 different ways to go OoB and comparing paces vs normal route. I couldn't make either of them useful in terms of saving time. One thing that could potentially develop though is being able to warp back up to final room after meeting up with Elvis, but seems highly unlikley at this point.

Alka Maass

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Alec M.

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #125 on: October 20, 2017, 10:59:27 pm »
Holy shit!  :o

Is this old stuff or brand-spanking new?

Totally not caught up on my PD strats.  :v   :nesquik:

EDIT:
Holy shit apparently a 2s time save on SA and 3s on PA?
Keen for Swiss/Boss/Green to do some damage.  :pimp:
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 11:19:59 pm by Alec M. »
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Luke

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #126 on: October 20, 2017, 11:42:36 pm »
F5ing and still no PD stream..
LAS

#TeamLevelRotation

Icy

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #127 on: October 21, 2017, 12:06:21 am »
Alka's relevance just flew through the roof! Amazing find!!!

Alka Maass

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #128 on: October 21, 2017, 01:29:24 am »
Thanks to everyone for the congrats about finding this strat, I was very excited to see that this WILL result in an untied very soon.
Good luck to everyone who will go for the untieds, I'm excited to see them happen.

First recorded instance of this OOB happening:
So here is the backstory of how I found this OOB: I was trying to learn the defense agent warp from upstairs with xray, I was kinda wandering around the level, not paying too much attention to the screen when I noticed I suddenly somehow fell through the floor down to the lower level, I thought I must've wandered downstairs, but that didn't really add up in my mind, so I hit record and I did the same wandering I did, and then this happened. I immediately started to become "aware" of what I had stumbled upon on, I wanted to make sure this actually saved time before posting about it so I was determined to get a faster pace to the first drone button than Boss's 1:22 (the untied WR), I was able to get to the door at 9 seconds (with a sluggish warp) while he got there at 10.53. This is when I knew that this was huge.

EliminatorJr

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #129 on: October 21, 2017, 01:51:16 am »
No way, Mr. Lahey. I NEED a cheeseburger!

Wyst3r

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #130 on: October 21, 2017, 06:18:57 am »
Wow, incredible discovery Alka!

How on earth did I/we miss this back in 2015? Literally scanned through every level with the setup editor looking for missing collision, as well grinding against all walls with 0 collision radius. This one should've been obvious.


Anemptybox

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #131 on: October 21, 2017, 07:24:18 am »
Awesome find!

NonnX

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #132 on: October 21, 2017, 11:12:48 am »
Amazing find!

Can it also be used in combination with the warp after picking up the RCP towards the uplink? Or does that not save time due to the messages?

Boss

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #133 on: October 23, 2017, 10:00:07 pm »
Big Bossman - Defense - Faster Upstairs Hostage Completion Strat Test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4U5vtNX88Y

This won't be as fast as the TAS run did years ago, but it should save just over 1s (doing wall hugger shot before regular shot, wall hugger sticks for 2 full sec before coming down) over how I was doing it before. It won't be quite as reliable, but now the stretch between obj 2 complete and getting the RCP120 matters more on PA. This should definitely put 1:29 PA in  play and even 1:28 PA with a sick 20.x obj 1 fade pace.

Boss

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #134 on: November 23, 2017, 11:30:07 pm »
I dunno if this laptop throw strat is better for PA, but it was done on DLTK on the XBLA version a couple months ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnryCz7c_Hg

Icy

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #135 on: March 01, 2018, 09:15:16 pm »
G5 Perfect Agent Lure Strat

Something I accidentally found and messed with. By firing in the basement nearby the guard closest to the alarm after the drop, you can sometimes sneak past him as he'll be searching for you in the basement. You need to fire several shots nearby the first pair of gray computers to be close enough. It doesn't always work however as the guard can be too fast sometimes, but clearly by my sloppy play in that video, sometimes he'll give you lots of time to work with. One other important note is it doesn't work on all paces because if the patrolling guard is alerted, he'll clone himself and also be lured, making it essentially impossible for the strat to work.

I think this could potentially help for top-level play, where the alarm going off is a big problem, but I obviously can't test that. :v It may require watching cinema on certain paces, but perhaps also, it's not consistent enough to be worth using.

Thoughts?

Alka Maass

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Icy

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #137 on: March 09, 2018, 09:20:20 pm »
Cool shot! A couple things though:

-Wall Hugger shots don't always go off if unloaded, so performing that with a Grenade Launcher shot would be much more likely to work in a real run.

-You're capped with Carrington's messages, and that shot is right after the hostages would ideally be completing, so it's most likely not a time save. It might help for runs that don't use the upstairs warp though.

Alka Maass

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #138 on: March 10, 2018, 02:28:06 am »
Cool shot! A couple things though:

-Wall Hugger shots don't always go off if unloaded, so performing that with a Grenade Launcher shot would be much more likely to work in a real run.

-You're capped with Carrington's messages, and that shot is right after the hostages would ideally be completing, so it's most likely not a time save. It might help for runs that don't use the upstairs warp though.
i haven't had much success with the GL shot, i think a different aim for it is needed (at least for me)

also I forgot to mention you can blow up the computer in the firing range with this, so if it can reach the firing range there's potential for this shot to free hostages at the firing range before you even open the door for it.

since JP requires you to destroy the files after you complete the rcp objective, I think a huge JP untied is possible with this strat because the shot takes so long to hit

idk what boss has to say about this strat, im thinking it doesnt save time now for WR

Icy

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #139 on: March 10, 2018, 05:43:27 am »
also I forgot to mention you can blow up the computer in the firing range with this, so if it can reach the firing range there's potential for this shot to free hostages at the firing range before you even open the door for it.

They're invincible until you open the door, and even with it open, they roam around all over the place. It'd be a terrible idea.

A strategy for Jap would be cool though.

Alka Maass

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #140 on: March 10, 2018, 12:59:03 pm »
also I forgot to mention you can blow up the computer in the firing range with this, so if it can reach the firing range there's potential for this shot to free hostages at the firing range before you even open the door for it.

They're invincible until you open the door, and even with it open, they roam around all over the place. It'd be a terrible idea.

A strategy for Jap would be cool though.
lol wow had no idea they were invincible until you open the door, and yeah JP untied is plausible, I'm not entirely sure but you gotta complete objective 3 within roughly 10 seconds after you make the shot, might be restricted by carrington's speech anyways, really unsure if it would work, boss do you have any idea?

Boss

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #141 on: March 11, 2018, 10:33:16 pm »
Def PA RTA

Yeah I think I should post a few things about this strat. Here's the 1:19 for reference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEFp7AyIy9E

The biggest + about this route is NO CINEMA watching is required. You can do lots of starts in a short time. There's 2 ways of doing the start. The first way is just glitching out as usual and having a patrolling guard open the door for the programmer. The other way is seen at the start of this vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0NjuRp_f-o

I don't totally understand how to even execute that other method at this time, but it's probably the strat to use if looking for a sick time here. I think Henrik also has a vid of this strat, but I don't know where it is. Anyway, then you need to shoot him in the chest and skip 2 lines of speech (1 Jo/1 Programmer). Jo's line will happen once the programmer has recovered from the injury animation. He should start walking forward like a frame before Jo's line would happen. Then a few frames after he will stop and attempt to say his "don't shoot don't shoot" line. You can skip this one as well. Looking down will make these skips easier to do since otherwise there is a lot of lag. I'm guess with the Ace start that the lag will generally be better because of the 3 guard in the room above will not be lured. Once the programmer starts to move again, you can proceed with the level. Try to kill the 2 or 3 guards nearby as quickly as you can. Once the programmer is over the line on the ground near the beam on the wall make your way to the lift to call it down. Kill any remaining guards while the lift is coming down. Once the lift starts to open, start heading upstairs. This section is still a work in progress. What I do know is generally the more guards you disarm/kill in this area, the better the programmer will be on average once you get outside. All that matters for this part otherwise is when you leave the area outside of Cass' office. Make sure the programmer is fully out of the lift and has made the first turn before heading to the top of the building. It seems like if you leave too early, the programmer will get really slow for some reason. The rest of the level pretty much plays out like regular PA route, but you do want to be fast from this point on order to make it to the uplink in time.

Wyst3r

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #142 on: March 12, 2018, 01:25:16 am »
I seems i had a bunch of Pictures rather than a video:

https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=363.msg391559#msg391559


Boss

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #143 on: August 03, 2018, 02:39:20 pm »
This is a nice alternative strat for 1st experiments if you hate dealing with console luck. This is proof of concept strat that 100% avoids needing to check consoles while still being pretty fast if you can get the guard kills quickly (required). You do need to go in the room far enough to trigger scientist's AI as well as shoot out the glass. Jo's message is triggered after scientist's 1st line by simply looking at the scientist no matter how far away! Reopening the door is probably necessary unless you have perfect room execution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20mOSSbzhoA

Boss

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #144 on: August 20, 2018, 11:24:32 pm »
Here's some Villa Agent stuff to help get 1:05!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maBnaErRAUs
This is showing 2 faster strats that none of the 1:06s do. The first one is doing a quickpause + holding speed on the 2 sniper shots (saves around .4-.5?). The second one is doing a hard left turn on the first staircase in the building to go completely over the side rail (saves around .1-.3?).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6nlxzg2fPM
This was my first completion of the fast beginning strat. I bailed on the staircase strat though. I nearly completed the run, but the 3rd to last guard did me in. I'm not sure if it was good enough for 1:06 anyway in the end as I kept bleeding time after the fast start.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 12:10:40 am by Boss »

JDBlack21

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #145 on: August 20, 2018, 11:45:18 pm »
Good shit Boss, I was wondering if anyone would try those noscope shots on the hostage takers.
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flicker

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #146 on: August 21, 2018, 01:55:46 pm »
The second one is doing a hard left turn on the first staircase in the building to go completely over the side rail (saves around .1-.3?).

i did this kind of thing a lot in casual runs and always thought it was slower because you bonk the wall a little bit, but clearly an even harder turn the way you did it there is pretty good

vitorr

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #147 on: August 22, 2018, 08:55:52 am »
Nice Boss! How is your consistency on it so far? Keen for new obj 1 completions videos with that strat, as non obj 1 kinda reduces the level lag so it's not completely accurate.

And yeah I guess everyone who has played Villa thought about doing non scoped shots at some point. The problem is that you still have 1 minute of tight strafing so keeping that ~0.4 save throughout the entire run is very hard. Curious to know about the consistency so far or if we can find a way to improve the odds there! Would make 105 very doable for sure (it already is but it's kinda nuts with the current strat).

Funky_Buddha

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #148 on: November 06, 2018, 06:17:12 am »
Can someone please play around with this Deep Sea glitch and turn it into a strategy already?: https://youtu.be/90XkEZcRWEs

The first relevant part of the vid is at 4:13, where eagle eyed viewers will notice the falcon 2 aims at the Mr. Blonde through the door to the teleportal room. This triggers Mr. Blonde to start running down the ramp (IIRC, it's been a few years  :kappa:). At some point Elvis then sees the Blonde through the wall, says a little killing line of his and proceeds to warp into the portal room and finish the objective.

This has potential to be quite useful on PA I believe, because of how hard it is to get runs and how often you get slaughtered in the tunnels. If someone can work out how to get it to happen consistently you then only need to open one of the tunnel doors (ie. shooting the first cannister), plus you probably only have to kill 2-3 guards even on the clumsiest of runs, saving a metric shit tonne of health and consistency and I suspect a few seconds too.

EDIT: Clearly some q's need answering, most notably how to make Elvis warp in the first place? Does he need to see Blonde at a specific place? Does Jo need a specific movement to make Elvis warp? etc. etc. But that's where you PD/GE hackers come in ;).
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 06:54:23 am by Funky_Buddha »

Wyst3r

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Re: PD Strategy Discussion Topic
« Reply #149 on: November 08, 2018, 02:37:23 pm »
I managed to replicate it and I think it's pretty straightforward actually. This is what I discovered:

1. Auto-aim does not actually alert Mr. Blonde or the 2 guards, though it does show that the wall above the door is indeed see-through (from the game's perspective). Joanna can detect Mr. Blonde and vice versa (though you probably have to run around a bit before he sees you). It will aim toward him every time you look toward the door, as long as he hasn't run down yet.

2. Mr. Blonde and the 2 guards actually have INSANE hearing. If you shoot 15 CMP bullets at the start of the slope leading down into the tunnels, they'll hear it. In your video, you let Elvis do most of the shooting, which doesn't contribute any noise, hence why you were able to reach the corridor without them hearing you.

3. Remember the wall being see-through? Well this goes for Elvis too. If Mr. blonde is on the top floor while Elvis runs down this corridor, Elvis will spot him. And if he spots him, he will attempt to run into the room. Now simply run away to unload Elvis, and he'll warp the door.

When I tested this, it took Elvis quite a while to kill the guards and activate the teleportals (enough for me to reach the teleportal and wait for a while), so not sure if this would actually save any time. Though I only tested it once so maybe he can be faster.