Poll

Would you be open to adding a GE/PD style rankings for other games?

No, The-Elite should be only GE/PD forever.
9 (19.6%)
No, but there may be a time in the future when I would approve.
4 (8.7%)
Yes, but only for a select few game(s).
25 (54.3%)
Yes, for as many games as there is demand for.
8 (17.4%)

Total Members Voted: 46

Author Topic: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite  (Read 3215 times)

Grav

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Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« on: April 03, 2016, 06:03:30 am »
I'm sure this has been brought up in some form many times in the past, but I think it hasn't been addressed recently or very directly so I figured I would give it a shot.

I have been interested in providing dedicated places and particularly a GE/PD style leaderboard times page to additional games for a while now. I've talked to many people within The-Elite and a majority of those I talked to appeared to be interested in such an idea. Particularly, Derek Clark (who actually brought this up to me first years ago) was on board. The-Elite is frankly the best community I have ever encountered for fostering an environment encouraging to speedrunning and I think it would be mutually beneficial to bring in more players to flourish in this community. For instance, if a Doom 64 section was added, any Doom 64 runners would be using The-Elite and would be exposed to the community all the time. Perhaps when they are bored with Doom 64, they pick up GE and contribute to that game. The same would work the other way around as well.

For those concerned about what it would do to the existing community, I do not believe at all that providing spaces for a few other games would water down or take away anything from either GE/PD. Just look at the three sub forums that were made for PW64/MG/WR64. The heart and soul of The-Elite will ALWAYS be GE/PD though, no matter what is added. That said, too many quality games have a rich history that is lost in google documents, skype groups, and IRC channels and this would both preserve that history and help grow The-Elite into one of the premier places for not only GE/PD but speedrunning in general. Now I'm not saying The-Elite should become a speedrun.com, or even something far less encompassing, but perhaps expanding to something like "quality N64 games w/ in game timed ILs" could work. Whatever it is, some slightly larger niche that includes a handful of games that the community either agrees on and/or individuals demand to have would probably be best.

A list of N64 games that I think could be great candidates are as follows:
  • Doom 64 (tier 1+ N64 speedrun and my #1 recommendation)
  • Blast Corps
  • Mischief Makers
  • Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire
  • Pilotwings 64
  • Wave Race 64
  • Mario Golf
  • Quake 2 64 (unique game, unlike Quake 1 64 which is a port)

Almost all of these have players already in The-Elite and also are pretty good "leaderboard" types of games. There are other games that fit this but they either are more unknown, less interesting, untouched by eliters, well established on another site with forums and all, or some combination of the four. I may have forgotten some others too but people can bring them up if they want.

Anyway, I can't think of much else to say so vote in the poll and let me know your thoughts.

Wody

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2016, 06:35:04 pm »
I would like to see Doom 64 added and Wave Race 64. Would be so fucking sick. The rankings system is amazing.

Edit: Pilot wings 64 as well. Im sure Derek would be down for that! maybe maybe not
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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2016, 07:44:38 pm »
  I voted YES to some games, but honestly, I like the site as it is at the moment.

  I agree that this would make the Elite more active and bring traffic from other communities, which would evolve the site.  Could even get TS popular again.   Would take some time, but maybe donation incentives would help? 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 05:38:00 pm by 007 »
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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2016, 11:10:42 pm »
i feel like there's room for other IL-heavy games, sure

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2016, 11:14:49 pm »
No bias here but twine would be a nice addition  :nesquik:
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wheatrich

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2016, 12:57:41 am »
well there's major issues

1--someone would have to do it, we don't have much in terms of willingness and ability there

2--activity for those games is very poor, is it worth it?  Probably not.  (This coming from a guy who LOVES blast corps, every site that started something barely got any action (n64 high scores/cyberscore/etc))

3--we don't have anyone fixing our Timesplitters stuff and that's at least somewhat GEish.  (this is similar to 1, but I want to emphasize the point)

I grant that activity wise any little bit helps but these games just don't have a "build it and they will come".  Even Perfect Dark lately only got Green and some GE leftovers.

btw, one old archive TWINE elite IL page
http://www.angelfire.com/crazy2/the_sexy_rivalry/TwineRivalry/elite.htm

IL's blow in this game so who cares.

Isn't/wasn't there a wave race site?

" That said, too many quality games have a rich history that is lost in google documents, skype groups, and IRC channels "

or because I'm an old--actual sites that died off (monkey ball being the main one for me).
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 01:09:26 am by wheatrich »

Retrix

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2016, 02:06:47 am »
As the only active  1080 score-runner on the-elite, I'd love this. I don't even play goldeneye/pd yet; I just like hanging out here because it's people who still play n64. So would this almost be like n64hs revived?

I voted against but the poll results made me change my mind to try to fit in. I mean people run wave race and all sorts of stuff here. Makes sense. I might be more inclined to try new games just to see my name on a list.

@wheatrich - what kind of code would I have to learn? If its just manual updating, I really wouldn't mind... esp since it'd be a small part of site.
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TheFlash

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2016, 09:41:11 am »
As the only active  1080 score-runner on the-elite, I'd love this. I don't even play goldeneye/pd yet; I just like hanging out here because it's people who still play n64. So would this almost be like n64hs revived?

Keep the dream alive!



We actually did one "update" even:

http://n64hs.speedrunwiki.com/

Retrix

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2016, 11:29:21 am »
Wow. They really were excel files... the charts always looked like they were designed in something archaic like lotus wordpro.

I combed the internet for scores when I redid the 1080 charts. This one is probably the most diverse one, in terms of source material: Air Make Took a decent amount of time, but that's something I have in abundance on weekends especially.
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Ngamer

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2016, 08:49:50 pm »
Setting up the system to be modable/portable so we'd easily be able to add support for different modes (LTK etc) or adding other video games was one of the first things I brought up with YE during our initial Beta test of the new rankings.  He agreed it was a nice thought but put it near the bottom of the priorities document and it didn't end up happening.

I still think it's a good idea.  People would be way more likely to play along if they could stick with their same username and just enter new times like they already do rather than creating a whole new system or mainly e-mailing/posing times like the old days.  Plus it would help in the other direction as well; a couple top Waverace or whatnot players would sign up for the site to show off their best times and after competing for a month might decide to see what all the fuss is about and submit some GE times as well just for kicks.  And once the initial work was over and the page was up and running it would be a snap to create a new message board, assign a couple moderators, and have the board top display the latest PRs and WRs just like GE and PD.

...only problem is that "initial work" I mentioned would still take quite a bit of time.  Once someone stepped up to the plate and got the system working for say, Doom, it should be relatively easy to begin porting things over to the next 3 games but that starting point is still a bit rough.  A donation pot that kept growing would certainly help, but I'm not sure how large it would need to get before someone was interested enough to seriously take a crack at it.
thengamer. com

bothanspy

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2016, 12:48:54 am »
I support this. Mainly for TimeSplitters.

Hypnotoad

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2016, 01:18:21 pm »
A very IL heavy game is most of the games in the Hitman franchise - the good thing about that is there would be loads of categories for it.

Jackafur

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2016, 07:56:01 pm »
I fully support adding Doom64 and Mischief Makers. Mischief Makers has some pretty insane ILs and we do not have a home.

TheIntercom

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2016, 08:28:03 pm »
I think it would be more than amazing to have new people playing Mischief Makers, let alone any of the games Grav proposed.  I do, however, wish to respect the traditions that have been upheld here and instead of totally violating them, perhaps simply bend them a little.  So, I think the best definition of games to be added was already covered by Grav but seemed to be missing from the vote.

Quality N64 games with in-game timed ILs

And, while this site functions as a leaderboard just like any of our GoogleDocs can, it also functions as a historical archive which many communities are sorely lacking.  Not only Mischief Makers, but all of us could use a proper home (At the very least Doom 64, anyways).
Mischief Makers ILs - http://bombch.us/nbl

Grav

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2016, 12:00:35 am »
any updates/progress?

wheatrich

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2016, 06:05:36 pm »
any updates/progress?

if there's none--I think ngamer nailed it in his post.

We have timesplitters rankings on this site (that have been broken/dead for some years now--one guy had everything and he's off the site for awhile now) that many of the higher ups didn't even know was on this site when I brought it up some years ago.  (edit--apparently it's had because they got removed, which one of you did this?  I didn't get to save the pages first sigh)

It's also a struggle of making sure the game has enough interest where we don't look like n64 high scores/cyberscore where nobody cares because the community/forums are too sparsed out/nobody signs up on those ranking pages.  (and we're never doing a game that already has it's own site since that's pointless).  Basically looking at levels of interest in 64 games on speedrun/cyberscore I only see maybe a dozen games if that for any level of consideration.  I don't know how many play Doom like Grav would--but it was < 5 total from what I saw.  That's not good enough.

That said, I'd chip in some $ (I can't code worth a damn or I'd have done a Blast Corps site back in the pre youtube era) for any of Blast Corps/Monkey ball/Timesplitters and maybe Mario Golf.  (but as ng said I don't think the $ pledge drive gets us enough to hire someone good to do it)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 06:39:35 pm by wheatrich »

Icy

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2016, 06:17:16 pm »
Dunno how well rankings leaderboards would go when the Pilotwings/Mario Golf/Wave Race boards basically went unused and died right away. I can't really see Mischief Makers, Doom 64, etc, doing much better as a part of The Elite.

That said, I wouldn't mind having them around.

Grav

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2016, 08:38:01 pm »
I think the rankings page is a huge psychological thing though and neither of those games had LBs on anything more than a google document or something hidden away from public view afaik. The "officialness" an actual ranks page on the-elite provides with the initials and slick layout and stuff makes people want to play a lot more.

I don't expect anything added to ever even overtake PD in long term activity, but why not try out a new game and see what happens? There is clearly community support for the idea.

TheFlash

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2016, 09:46:48 pm »
(edit--apparently it's had because they got removed, which one of you did this?  I didn't get to save the pages first sigh)



Just needs someone to upload to the web server...and someone to be "in charge" of it...any volunteers?

why not try out a new game and see what happens? There is clearly community support for the idea.

Sounds great, who wants to do it? I can get you set up on a subdomain like game.the-elite.net or something once you're ready.

wheatrich

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2016, 11:09:14 pm »
(edit--apparently it's had because they got removed, which one of you did this?  I didn't get to save the pages first sigh)



Just needs someone to upload to the web server...and someone to be "in charge" of it...any volunteers?


is this the pages are there or the empty space is there?

TheFlash

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2016, 01:07:31 am »
is this the pages are there or the empty space is there?


Grav

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2016, 01:24:11 am »
Yeah I mean didn't know how anything worked, but if it is so simple I would be willing to move forward with the subdomain for sure

TheFlash

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2016, 01:40:10 am »
Yeah I mean didn't know how anything worked, but if it is so simple I would be willing to move forward with the subdomain for sure

Which game?

Grav

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2016, 01:51:06 am »
Doom 64

Imperfect Clark

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2016, 02:15:38 am »
I've long dreamed of the Elite's ranking system evolving into a mature platform with a framework that allowed for the addition of new games as "apps", essentially, subject to the design requirements of the game and its scoring structure (and subject to preferences of the developers).  This may be a bit too advanced for the near future, but I think we can go pretty far with Google Docs or Excel Online.... if a game's records followed a certain schema, that would open up possibilities for front-end design guys to create a public, web-facing interface for otherwise-informal spreadsheets that have been the basis of record keeping for many small games for years.  In the more advanced scenario, where we standardize the Elite's database for multi-game support, data transform logic/code could be created in order to take data from the spreadsheets, run it through any processing we might want, and generate SQL queries or CSV import files to pass the data into the master database (responsible for content on game.the-elite.net or the-elite.net/game).

But I think the key is starting small -- getting all those high scores spreadsheets in one place, standardized (as much as possible), and made visible on the public web is key.   Also critical is continuing to attract the most *competitive* and records-obsessed speedrunners to the Elite.  I think that embodies our "brand" the best and I hope ppl here agree it's a big part of what makes us different.  Even during boom-times it's felt like the Elite was a word-of-mouth community and that perceived exclusivity has been to our benefit.

If someone created a Google spreadsheet with lists and brainstorm notes on this, would others join?  My first curiosity is how many rankings spreadsheets, static pages, or broken pages are out there and what is there association with the Elite? (note: I say "someone" and not "I" because I have not been a reliable project participant and that's obvious to most...). I've thrown out some big concepts in this post but just wanting to share a vision + some rough conceptual blueprints... That's really just part 1.

This is the part where I apologize for the dead home page and the (temporary) offline status of content previously hosted on www.the-elite.net (our last host).  I have been very unreliable and the Elite has gotten the worst of my neglect.  As some of you know, my life has been a bit crazy since early 2014... well, 3 months ago I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder (a.k.a. manic depression) which paired with my existing diagnosis of existing attention deficit disorder (two different doctors pinned me squarely on that), I'm a interesting person... i.e., unpredictable, and at my worst, unreliable.  But it seems things are finally coming together (thanks to new meds + a renewed sense of control over my life).  I have been yearning to return to the Elite but stayed away out of embarrassment (mainly for balking on many commitments I've made, in particular to Scott, who should be canonized before this is all over btw).

Part 2 coming soon
(Hint: open forum on investment funds for the Elite -- if I gave $2k for dev, would the community match it 2:1?)
Derek Clark

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Imperfect Clark

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2016, 02:17:59 am »
Scott, remind me how to FTP to our server.  Could you put something up for the www page right now if you wanted, or do I need to do something in DNS?  I know we've been through this, but my brain has been essentially lobotomized over the last 6 months.  I am now more useful for the world.  #oneflew
Derek Clark

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Imperfect Clark

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2016, 02:19:59 am »
I know this is annoying but: if either of you guys want to IM me, Skype > imperfectclark is the best I've got...
Derek Clark

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TheFlash

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2016, 02:26:52 am »
Doom 64

https://doom64.the-elite.net/

Now what?

I've got apache set to serve a directory at that URL.  If you want a different web server we can make it work...

Does someone need a login account? Just send me who it is and their public SSH key and I'll make an account for you.

It's on the same machine as the rest of the site for now so I probably won't give anyone else sudo as a general rule...if you really need it we can host it on a different server (or I can just run whatever setup you'd need and delegate some appropriate permissions).

Grav

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2016, 03:00:16 am »
Now what?

you tell me lol. i just want to have a ranks page for the game. whatever i gotta do to make it happen just tell me and I'll do it. i dont really know anything regarding the back end stuff

TheFlash

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2016, 03:07:18 am »
you tell me lol. i just want to have a ranks page for the game. whatever i gotta do to make it happen just tell me and I'll do it. i dont really know anything regarding the back end stuff

Well I guess your next step would be to find someone who is willing to put something together for you.

Maybe as Clark suggested it's just making https://doom64.the-elite.net show the status of a Google Spreadsheet for now, and some master plan is crafted while the makeshift site is in place.

I'm willing to go to basically any length to facilitate this...configure services, advise/teach whoever, give reviews of code/interfaces/etc.  I just don't want to actually be in charge/leading the project.  Basically same as I offer for the GE/PD rankings.

Grav

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2016, 03:11:58 am »
yeah that can work for now. i dont know who is capable of doing what needs to be done though, since the ranks format would certainly have to be altered to fit doom 64 among other things. basically my forum sig is how it would look i think

the spreadsheet is:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HcK8ZmQSBPDS2SRKbLKXKpwxkD5kMwn6LsILy32vy9Q/edit




TheFlash

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2016, 03:15:03 am »
yeah that can work for now. i dont know who is capable of doing what needs to be done though, since the ranks format would certainly have to be altered to fit doom 64 among other things. basically my forum sig is how it would look i think

the spreadsheet is:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HcK8ZmQSBPDS2SRKbLKXKpwxkD5kMwn6LsILy32vy9Q/edit

How about the Embed code from File->Publish to the web, then we can put it in a page with some minimal decoration around it like a title, some "The-Elite" thing, etc..
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 03:23:30 am by TheFlash »

youseinthehouse

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2016, 11:04:11 am »
I've long dreamed of the Elite's ranking system evolving into a mature platform with a framework that allowed for the addition of new games as "apps", essentially, subject to the design requirements of the game and its scoring structure (and subject to preferences of the developers).

We had a pretty interesting discussion about building a generic leaderboard framework/API in the chatroom recently.  I'll have to look for some of the logs.  I might be willing to put a big effort into this, pending ROI analysis :)

Scott, who should be canonized before this is all over btw).
Scott, who should be canonized before this is all over btw).
Scott, who should be canonized before this is all over btw).
Scott, who should be canonized before this is all over btw).

Wouter Jansen

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2016, 11:24:57 am »
really good to see you back Derek :)

I would also gladly help in coding and whatever else. I think the best would be to rewrite most if not all. I suspect it will be quite an undertaking but together I'm sure we can do it. I may not be reliable myself if I would just work on it in free time as I please (as thusfar I haven't started anything towards it yet, even though this idea has been on the table for a long time), so ROI would definitely help in planning better and getting things done.
sexy, this

Grav

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2016, 05:46:09 pm »
perhaps it would be beneficial to lay out all that needs to be done and see who all is willing to do what. there seems to be quite a bit of interest from people who have the capability to help out in the process at least

TheFlash

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2016, 12:18:34 am »
perhaps it would be beneficial to lay out all that needs to be done and see who all is willing to do what. there seems to be quite a bit of interest from people who have the capability to help out in the process at least


Short term plan outlined above:
1. Pick the publish as web page option for the above spreadsheet
2. Insert embed code in super simple HTML document
3. Send me the simple HTML document and I serve it as the index for https://doom64.the-elite.net

Estimated time: Can be done within 15 minutes

TheFlash

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2016, 12:45:06 am »
perhaps it would be beneficial to lay out all that needs to be done and see who all is willing to do what. there seems to be quite a bit of interest from people who have the capability to help out in the process at least


Longer term:  Lots of ways this can be done...opinions follow.

Realistically, the best way for something to get done is if one guy really cares about it enough that they will do whatever it takes to make it happen.  Depending on the person, that might mean building something themselves, working really closely with 1 or 2 guys who are building it, or coordinating a larger group who all help in different ways. (You're on the right track so far.)

Can't really come up with a detailed checklist at this point, would have to know more about what your vision is here.

Estimated time (fast mode): Someone makes a basic design and you have a "real" site within a week. You constantly hound them about adding new features for months and within half a year you have a pretty cool site.

Estimated time (slow mode): Check back in a year, you have a lot of ideas but nothing is done yet.

Grav

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2016, 03:32:11 am »
My vision was pretty much just to have a World Records & Rankings page in the same format that PD/GE has for Doom 64, presumably accessible on an "other games" tab or something next to the GE/PD/Rare Ranks tabs at the top. This could be where any future games other than Doom would be added as well.

The points system should transfer over exactly because the game also goes by whole second IL times. The only change it would have compared to PD/GE is the level grid being a 2x32 (2 difficulties, 32 levels) grid instead of a 3x20 or 3x21 grid.

I guess my main question was how much of this back-end stuff could just be copy pasted for a new game? I wasn't sure why there was a need to make what was needed from the ground up if there were so many similarities in what we have and what we need already. I could just be very ignorant of the whole process though.

Your Eliteness

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2016, 08:46:50 am »
Hello :)

I advise against trying to integrate other games into the existing rankings system. One of the reasons why the current rankings work so well is because they are designed specifically for GE and PD only. The database is structured specifically for those games. Even the frontend is designed specifically for them, with the 4 column tables rather then a generic listing showing every possible combination of league/stage/difficulty. You wouldn't be able to integrate other games without detracting from the experience for GE and PD or making the code hideously complex.

I feel as though GE and PD are The Elite's core and all other games should be secondary. Other games will never have the effort put into them that GE and PD have. If we have dozens of games in one system then GE and PD would get mixed and buried with the others. It wouldn't be "The Elite" any more. It'd be a generic scoring system with most scores being mediocre, much like Cyberscore. If you're set on adding new games then I recommend making it a separate system.

To be honest I would put very little effort into it. Maybe something like a MediaWiki install would be good, where there's one page for each game and you have to be registered to edit pages. You'd just edit the page and put your scores in. It'd be more of a fun thing for the community rather than a "We're the Elite and here's our awesome records" kind of thing.

50

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2016, 10:00:02 am »
I feel like it's going to lose focus. If you want other games, open yourself another website or something and have fun with that. Maybe use the code of the ranks here, but don't merge everything, feels like it's going to be a messy pizza.

TheFlash

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2016, 12:40:53 pm »
I advise against trying to integrate other games into the existing rankings system.

Agreed. If we do add another ranking, it should stand on its own rather than as a part of the existing rankings.

I guess my main question was how much of this back-end stuff could just be copy pasted for a new game?

The general framework could probably be reused, but almost every file would need modifications.  Also, the entire front-end would need to be updated.

Grav

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Re: Other Game Leaderboards & the Future of The-Elite
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2016, 03:30:19 pm »
If you want other games, open yourself another website or something and have fun with that. Maybe use the code of the ranks here, but don't merge everything, feels like it's going to be a messy pizza.

It being a part of The-Elite framework was the entire point of this thread and the community poll though.