VA 2017 - Mario Kart 64 Tournament [Matchups Posted!]

[Jonesy]

The following is a proposal for the 2017 Virginia Kart tournament. Please feel free to leave any feedback and suggestions.

Relevant Google Sheet

Proposed Rules:

- Same as last year
- 4P Vs.
- All tracks Non-SC
- Cup order: Mushroom, Special, Star, Flower
- Everdrive with Weatherton's custom ROM will be used (same as 2016)

Autobids:

- Top 4 or 6 (based on number of entrants) earn Autobids to R16 (based on 2016 VA tournament finish)
- All other entrants must advance via Playins

Playins:

- If the playin pool has an odd number of players
  -- Two volunteers, or two players chosen by the players with Autobids undergo a tiebreaker to advance to the full playin 
- Each entrant plays two full (16 races) rounds
- Players are ranked by total number of points across two rounds
- Top 10 or 12 players (based on number of Autobids) advance to R16
- Playin groups will be structured so that:
  -- No two players play the same person twice
  -- Groups strength is distributed evenly

R16:

- Autobids will be given a seed based on their 2016 VA finish
- Remaining seeds will be determined by playin ranking
- Each quarterfinalist plays two full (16 races) rounds
- Players are ranked by total number of points across two rounds
- Top 8 players advance to Semis
- R16 groups will be structured so that no two players play the same person twice

Semis:

- Semis will be seeded by R16 ranking
- Each semifinalist plays one full (16 races) round
- Top 2 players from each semi-final (4 in total) advance to the Final

Final:
- Final will be seeded by Semis point total (to determine position selection order)
- One round (16 races) is played
- Player with the most points is the Champion


Tiebreaker - 2 Players tied:
- Players must unanimously agree on their choice of:
  -- 4P Vs: 2 idle characters, Best 2 out of 3, tracks chosen at random
  -- 2P GP: 1 cup, chosen at random (most GP points wins)
 -- 2P Vs: Best 2 out of 3, track chosen at random
- If no format can be agreed upon, 4P vs. with 2 idle characters will be played by default

Tiebreaker - 3 Players tied:
- Players must unanimously agree on their choice of:
  -- 4P Vs: 1 Idle character, Most points after 4 races, tracks chosen at random
  -- 3P Vs: Most points after 4 races, tracks chosen at random
- If no format can be agreed upon, 4P vs. with 1 idle character will be played by default

Tiebreaker - 4 Players tied:
  -- 4P Vs: Most points after 4 races, tracks chosen at random
 

Additional Considerations

Tournament Length:
Due to the projected increase in the number of total entrants, the amount of new players and returning players (from previous years), we are proposing a change to the Playin structure to prevent anyone from going "one and done" and to provide a more accurate seeding for R16. The trade off is that there will be more official tournament rounds than previous years. The last 4 years, we've had 13, 13, 14 and 13 total rounds (2, 2, 3 and 2 total playin rounds). This proposal would increase the total number of rounds from anywhere to 19 to 25 total rounds (8 to 14 total playin rounds), depending on the number of entrants. On the high end, this would mean roughly doubling the amount of official tournament rounds.

Scheduling:
Given the proposed increased number of rounds, we would likely need to start the playin rounds on Tuesday or be prepared for fairly intensive tournament session on Wednesday (we would need to play up to 14 playin rounds). One consideration is that at least one person who will be in a playin (Eddie Lovins) will not be available until Wednesday evening. If Lovins arrives later in the evening, all of the playin rounds except his can be held and the playins can be completed upon his arrival. Additionally, I will not be available until Thursday evening and the same approach can be used to complete R16 (as we have done the past two years).

Monday: Nothing
Tuesday/Wednesday: Playins (total rounds - 8 to 14)
Thursday: Finish R16 (total rounds - 8)
Friday: Semis & Finals (total rounds - 3)

Streaming/Capture:
It is my hope that all official tournament rounds can be streamed, or at the very least captured for posterity. In the past DK has provided the stream setup. He hasn't committed to attending yet, so we should discuss potential backups for handling the stream setup.

Projector/CRTs:
I know some new players have expressed concern over playing on the projector due to the lag. One idea I had was, in addition to the projector, place two CRT TVs on the coffee table for official matches - 1 to be used by players 1 and 3 (with full video signal available to them) and the other to be used by players 2 and 4. This would allow players to choose between playing on the projector or on the CRT (whichever suited them best) while also allowing the projector to be visible to the audience. There may be some logistical challenges in order to make this happen. First, we would need enough CRTs in the house to afford sparing two extra for the tournament (does anyone have idea how many CRTs we will have access to)? Second, we would need a 4-way splitter and 4 cables to handle all 4 signals (Stream Capture, Project, CRT1, CRT2). I would be able to provide some of these things (splitter and cables), but I won't be available until Thursday night. If this is something we want to seriously consider, we would need to work out the logistics before hand, otherwise everyone should expect to play all of their official tournament rounds on the projector.

Status of players:
It would be helpful to receive updates on attendance status and interest level for anyone who has not yet confirmed these things.

Of the people who have expressed some possibility of attending (or may show up randomly in the case of duff), I have marked the following as not yet confirmed:
- Duff
- Eddie Taylor
- Greg Larkin
- Wheat

If any of you are planning to attend and play, please let me know.

Of the people who have confirmed their intention to attend, I would like to know the interest level of the following:
- Joshua Nash
- Tyler Deel

If any of you planning to play, please let me know.

Of the people who are likely to attend, I have marked the following as unlikely to play:
- Woll
- DK
- QB
- Infil

If any of you would like to play, please let me know.

[TheFlash]

tl;dr version:

In past years, some players have traveled a long distance to come play in a Mario Kart 64 tournament and found themselves eliminated after just one round of 16 tracks. That's no fun for anyone.

To help everyone get a fair chance, the main change this year is to make sure every eager entrant will be able to play two full rounds of 16 tracks in the play-in round.

Side effects:

1. There are a lot more play-in rounds. Previously there would be about 2 or 3 play-in matches total, where you better hope you got an easy group or you might be eliminated right away after just one round.

2. There are fewer auto-bids to the round of 16.  Previously we put the top 8 from the previous year in automatically.  In order to round out the play-ins and open up more spots, there will be only 4 or 6 (depending on total number of players) auto-bids this year.

There are no changes to the semifinal or finals rounds, where everything is just a single round of 16 courses.  Intense action guaranteed! We will just be more confident that we get the best people in there.

[Joshua Nash]

Yeah I'll give it a try not sure how long I'll last though
Also I can bring more crts if needed

[Ngamer]

I've really enjoyed the more casual approach of the last couple years, with everyone just doing a couple practice rounds on Monday/Tuesday and nothing serious happening until Wednesday afternoon into evening.  With so many great players traveling so far to be here though, and the size of the field, I do agree that Jones' proposal seems like the best way to approach things.  Wouldn't do to have (just as a hypothetical) MR flying all this way only to have a string of bad luck and be out of the tournament after only 1 round.

It will be lots of extra work to get it all set up and scheduled but I'm willing to help Jones get it all set on the sheet so we'll be able to hand that off to Third and he can be the Schedule Enforcer in person for this season.

With the two round playin I guess I'd prefer to see only last year's Final Four being given the automatic bids just for the sake of fairness (as in it's weird that 2016 #6 would get such an advantage over 2016 #7 when they both advanced just as far in that tourney), but whichever makes the numbers work out seems fine.

I like the layout for tiebreakers and shortcuts and everything else.  The one weird thing to me is- there are people who object to playing on the projector?  The complaint I've always heard in years past was the opposite, players weren't happy when I told them their round would be on a regular TV instead of downstairs in "primetime" on the projector.  Jones' suggestion seems like a good one but I guess I'd want to hear more feedback from players on the subject before going ahead with it as that would be quite a bit of work to set up/get in place given the limited space in people's cars.

[deletedprofile.u]

First on the list   

I'd like to say I'm excited to play (and probably get my ass whooped early on again) this year. The "play-in for the play-in", the tie-breaker against Duff (kek), and the play-in I went through last year was a ton of fun (and only mildly unsettling with all the other talent in the room  ).

For my two cents I think everyone having an equal playing-field on the projector is beneficial both for the newbie guys to have more of an edge  , and the fact that the stream setup will be less of a headache this way. With the larger volume of rounds to be played, getting finicky with the setup will either cause more headaches/scheduling issues or will just not be as fun (imo).

Hopefully I can get above 15th this year 

[wheatrich]

Gonna be tough to get in a longer tournament just from logistics. Not just CRT's but actual time.  People tend to insist they want more rounds beforehand but when it's time to play them don't want to.

You could cut a few rounds by locking into the R16 the winner of the opening playin rounds.  (in theory, there'd be some winner gets the last spot round at the end for maximum SALT).

[Jonesy]

Gonna be tough to get in a longer tournament just from logistics. Not just CRT's but actual time.

Agreed, that's why I'm proposing this now and soliciting feedback.

You could cut a few rounds by locking into the R16 the winner of the opening playin rounds.  (in theory, there'd be some winner gets the last spot round at the end for maximum SALT).

There are a few challenges for implementing this that I have found. It would need to be set up to avoid an imbalance (i.e., no longer a multiple of 4) for the remaining playin pool. Attempting to minimize the number of rounds while preserving the no "one and done" criteria (i.e. advancing some players after 1 round) results is no advantage at 32/30 players, a 2 round reduction at 28 and only a single round reduction for 26 and 24. The current projection for the tournament is over 28 players so there really isn't, at least to my knowledge, a feasible way to reduce the number of playin rounds while preserving the one and done criteria. The only potential option would be to hope for at least 32 players and then do a giant round of R32 instead of playins + R16. However, that provides it's own challenges - specifically, how do you accurately seed all 32 players and how do handle late arrivals (Lovins and myself)?

Edit: For 32 players, 2 round playins + 2 round R16 means 25 total rounds. Skipping playins and doing 2 round R32 means 19 rounds (-6). Doing 3 round R32 means 27 rounds (+2). If round minimization is ideal, it would be best to 2 round R32. However, accurate seeding becomes much more critical and we would need a minimum of 32 players (not guaranteed).

Edit Edit: I suppose you could apply the same sort of thing to any multiple of 4. I.e., instead of using playins to get to 16, you could start with any multiple of 4 and go from there with 2 rounds then top 8 total points advance to semis.

I do welcome the feedback and suggestions. It's entirely possible that I'm overlooking something and there is a better way to think about this. So please don't hesitate to do keep posting these things.

[Jonesy]

It will be lots of extra work to get it all set up and scheduled but I'm willing to help Jones get it all set on the sheet so we'll be able to hand that off to Third and he can be the Schedule Enforcer in person for this season.

This will be crucial. So anyone willing to help organize the effort of keeping things moving will be greatly appreciated.

With the two round playin I guess I'd prefer to see only last year's Final Four being given the automatic bids just for the sake of fairness (as in it's weird that 2016 #6 would get such an advantage over 2016 #7 when they both advanced just as far in that tourney), but whichever makes the numbers work out seems fine.

For any sort of pool play, you essentially need multiples of 4. Having autobids of 4 or 6 is really dependent on the total entrant pool. I agree, that 4 is cleaner, but 6 would be necessary in order to maintain multiples of 4. In the 2014 and 2016 we had 10 autobids in order to arrive a multiple of 4 for the playin pools. So having 6 autobids this year wouldn't be a huge departure from previous tournaments.

I like the layout for tiebreakers and shortcuts and everything else.  The one weird thing to me is- there are people who object to playing on the projector?  The complaint I've always heard in years past was the opposite, players weren't happy when I told them their round would be on a regular TV instead of downstairs in "primetime" on the projector.  Jones' suggestion seems like a good one but I guess I'd want to hear more feedback from players on the subject before going ahead with it as that would be quite a bit of work to set up/get in place given the limited space in people's cars.

I know Abney has mentioned hesitation in the past about using the projector, but I'm not sure how serious his concern is. I'm also unsure about Matthias. Having those two people specifically provide feedback would be nice.

[MK64MR]

I like the layout for tiebreakers and shortcuts and everything else.  The one weird thing to me is- there are people who object to playing on the projector?  The complaint I've always heard in years past was the opposite, players weren't happy when I told them their round would be on a regular TV instead of downstairs in "primetime" on the projector.  Jones' suggestion seems like a good one but I guess I'd want to hear more feedback from players on the subject before going ahead with it as that would be quite a bit of work to set up/get in place given the limited space in people's cars.

I know Abney has mentioned hesitation in the past about using the projector, but I'm not sure how serious his concern is. I'm also unsure about Matthias. Having those two people specifically provide feedback would be nice.

If hesitation means input lag, all I can say is that a modern flatscreen TV already destroys my rhythm for clean driving, especially important for time trials. I once had the chance to play on a projector in Solingen (Euro meet) 3 years ago and it was a totally different experience. Even if you are able to reduce lag to a minimum, I would like to realise the idea of connected CRTs for the 4 players.

[NathanStinson]

A side note real quick... Should we pitch in for a legit reward for winning this year, since it'll be the most prestigious tournament?

[TheFlash]

Sounds great. Should we send money to you?

[Thiradell]

what are you thinking Nate, a controller? cart? blow-up doll? the 007 millennium thing was pretty cool for GE whenever that was

format looks perfect BTW, can't wait to bust out in play-ins

[Ngamer]

I've always thought it would be neat to have a full sized trophy, in the shape of the in-game MK64 trophies, with the names of all the winners engraved.  The Champ would get to lift it after the final and hold it for their speech, take a bunch of pictures, but it would stay at the Lakehouse between seasons (because it wouldn't get through metal detectors at the airport and let's be honest, we all know it will never ride back to Wisconsin in a car).

[Imperfect Clark]

I'm all about getting a custom trophy done... Either one that looks like the one from the game or a traditional trophy with a Yoshi kart on the top.... I'm sure this can be done as a custom job by someone out there. I'd throw down. $10 from everyone is $300. The trophy could become our Stanley Cup or Lombardi Trophy as years go on. Imagine it...

I intend to compete in the play-in btw; just clarifying.

[deletedprofile.u]

No one gets the millenium 2000, that's mine to buy off Edeen in about 5 years. 

[MK64MR]

A cup with engraved names of past winners would be awesome! Leaving it in the lake house sounds like the best solution then.

@Jones: I've read through the rules explanation. With a relatively high number of people (over 10) who won't reach the R16, I support the idea of having at least 2 play-in rounds (if time allows it). Non-sc and new cup order seems suitable for 4P VS action, no need to change that again in my opinion.
I hope there will be enough CRTs and equipment so that we can try your proposal, such a great event deserves the best preparation. If I didn't have to go by plane I would bring some TVs.

[PerfectTaste]

Projector/CRTs:
I know some new players have expressed concern over playing on the projector due to the lag. One idea I had was, in addition to the projector, place two CRT TVs on the coffee table for official matches - 1 to be used by players 1 and 3 (with full video signal available to them) and the other to be used by players 2 and 4. This would allow players to choose between playing on the projector or on the CRT (whichever suited them best) while also allowing the projector to be visible to the audience. There may be some logistical challenges in order to make this happen. First, we would need enough CRTs in the house to afford sparing two extra for the tournament (does anyone have idea how many CRTs we will have access to)? Second, we would need a 4-way splitter and 4 cables to handle all 4 signals (Stream Capture, Project, CRT1, CRT2). I would be able to provide some of these things (splitter and cables), but I won't be available until Thursday night. If this is something we want to seriously consider, we would need to work out the logistics before hand, otherwise everyone should expect to play all of their official tournament rounds on the projector.

I like the layout for tiebreakers and shortcuts and everything else.  The one weird thing to me is- there are people who object to playing on the projector?  The complaint I've always heard in years past was the opposite, players weren't happy when I told them their round would be on a regular TV instead of downstairs in "primetime" on the projector.  Jones' suggestion seems like a good one but I guess I'd want to hear more feedback from players on the subject before going ahead with it as that would be quite a bit of work to set up/get in place given the limited space in people's cars.

I know Abney has mentioned hesitation in the past about using the projector, but I'm not sure how serious his concern is. I'm also unsure about Matthias. Having those two people specifically provide feedback would be nice.

If hesitation means input lag, all I can say is that a modern flatscreen TV already destroys my rhythm for clean driving, especially important for time trials. I once had the chance to play on a projector in Solingen (Euro meet) 3 years ago and it was a totally different experience. Even if you are able to reduce lag to a minimum, I would like to realise the idea of connected CRTs for the 4 players.

Having played a lot of music and other reaction critical games, I'm highly susceptible to input lag. I've resisted playing any "serious matches" on flat TVs before since I can't adapt to the input lag to save my life; nevertheless, I've won three GoldenEye tournaments on the projector downstairs at the lake house. So, correct me if I'm wrong, if they haven't replaced the projector in the basement, we're playing an old analog projector using analog signals (Monster S-video cables). If there's no digital processing and/or up-scaling of the signals, there is and should be a minimum to no input lag. I don't believe we've had any objections about input lag the ten past VA meets.

Although, I would love to examine the input lag on the projector and CRT side by side, using a camera that can record high FPS.

[Jonesy]

Having played a lot of music and other reaction critical games, I'm highly susceptible to input lag. I've resisted playing any "serious matches" on flat TVs before since I can't adapt to the input lag to save my life; nevertheless, I've won three GoldenEye tournaments on the projector downstairs at the lake house. So, correct me if I'm wrong, if they haven't replaced the projector in the basement, we're playing an old analog projector using analog signals (Monster S-video cables). If there's no digital processing and/or up-scaling of the signals, there is and should be a minimum to no input lag. I don't believe we've had any objections about input lag the ten past VA meets.

Although, I would love to examine the input lag on the projector and CRT side by side, using a camera that can record high FPS.

The projector at the Weatherton's is an InFocus IN72: https://infocus.com/products/IN72#specs

It is a DLP projector, so it is digital but it is a different technology than is used by most flat screen monitors (LCD/OLED, etc.). According to my research most DLP projectors, when configured to minimize processing, typically have 16-67 ms of display lag, and none of them have zero lag. Also, in general, DLP projectors often have less lag than other digital technologies. I haven't found any sources that have performed lag testing on this specific projector, but I would estimate that it has less than 50 ms of display lag. In terms of MK64 4p, almost every track runs at 20 FPS which means 50 ms per frame. This means, that there is almost certainly exactly 1 frame of lag when playing MK64 4P vs. This isn't really a huge thing but it is definitely noticeable, at least to me. I recently purchased my own DLP projector, a BenQ1070,and I have found that if feels almost exactly like playing on the Weatherton's projector. There are a few sources online that have done lag testing on my projector and they have found that it averaged about 20 ms in terms of display lag, which further corroborates my feelings about the Weatherton's projector.

[NathanStinson]

If someone wants to design and get a trophy made, I'm good for contributing to it :-p

I'm all about getting a custom trophy done... Either one that looks like the one from the game or a traditional trophy with a Yoshi kart on the top.... I'm sure this can be done as a custom job by someone out there. I'd throw down. $10 from everyone is $300. The trophy could become our Stanley Cup or Lombardi Trophy as years go on. Imagine it...

I intend to compete in the play-in btw; just clarifying.

[NathanStinson]

A cup with engraved names of past winners would be awesome! Leaving it in the lake house sounds like the best solution then.

@Jones: I've read through the rules explanation. With a relatively high number of people (over 10) who won't reach the R16, I support the idea of having at least 2 play-in rounds (if time allows it). Non-sc and new cup order seems suitable for 4P VS action, no need to change that again in my opinion.
I hope there will be enough CRTs and equipment so that we can try your proposal, such a great event deserves the best preparation. If I didn't have to go by plane I would bring some TVs.

One of the guys coming (Josh) owns about 15 CRT TVs he said :-p so we could be covered... we just need to know how many

[SgtRaven]

I like the idea of having CRTs available with the feed out to the projector for viewing. It's only going to give us more options and make things better.
I also like the idea of the only people making it automatically into the round of 16 are those that made the finals the prior year, regardless if that's 0-4 people.

Then you take the remaining player pool and play rounds to get the rest of the 16. It does become a challenge with odd numbers, but it shouldn't be hard to finalize once we know player base.

[no_control]

Under strats tabs (work in progress), a chance to maybe improve your game without playing:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ev7556q_M9cBL_6uX2dgbNhYNCDiTiKEwlq4X0AaxCg/edit?usp=sharing

[Ngamer]

Wow, very cool project Zoran, keep up the good work!

[MK64MR]

The main event (4P VS) is highly anticipated, with so many MK64 legends in one place we should discuss the side tournaments in advance, too. I've already talked with Stinson about reviving table tennis, now I would like to pick up ideas for MK64 related non-VS stuff and see if there are enough interested people at all.

What has been mentioned by different people so far, me included:
- Time Trial 1-try (a must-have with #1-3 )
- GP 150cc skips race (a must-have with #1-3 )
- 2P GP cups (can be done casually or as tournament)
- any kind of GP team play or relay (many possible options in 1P/2P mode), depends on interest
- free time trial exhibitions, 5 min battles or even short WR attempts

Who likes to have some structured mini tournaments? Or are we quite low on free time and must organise it spontaneously? I would like to have some TT/GP competition similar to the Euro meet format.

Tell me your thoughts, ideas, estimations.

Matthias

[NathanStinson]

See my reply on the Mario Kart flooring. I am interested in any event Mario Kart related

[TheFlash]

Who likes to have some structured mini tournaments?

These types of events are usually enjoyed by many. We have had spontaneous events in the past like a 1-try tournament popping up one afternoon in the living room. There was also a last-minute GE tournament one year.

Basically if you really want any of those things to happen, you can be the leader in organizing it, however you wish to do so.  The most successful side-events in past years have had a strong leader who got it set up and convinced people to join.

Sounds like fun!

[wishiwasfamous]

Definitely want to play!

[Dennison]

I move that we change the Versus Tournament cup order to Mushroom/Star/Special/Flower, since the change in order was originally my idea. (Last year was Mushroom, then working backwards: Special, Star, Flower.)

My reasoning for this is because we're doing non-shortcut races, having Rainbow Road and Wario Stadium back to back is a little much. It also keeps Flower at the end, which definitely worked out and was so much fun last year.

It's also easier to explain to people how it works. All we're doing is going in order, except we're playing Flower last.

The main event (4P VS) is highly anticipated, with so many MK64 legends in one place we should discuss the side tournaments in advance, too.

- Time Trial 1-try (a must-have with #1-3 )
- GP 150cc skips race (a must-have with #1-3 )
- 2P GP cups (can be done casually or as tournament)

Who likes to have some structured mini tournaments? Or are we quite low on free time and must organise it spontaneously? I would like to have some TT/GP competition similar to the Euro meet format.

Some great stuff here. We should have a Time Trials Tournament of some kind, a Grand Prix 150cc Race with multiple TVs, and even a Battle Mode Tournament for the hell of it.

Assuming we have time. 

[DanBurbank]

I would prefer we stick with the order that was used last year, if only because it's pretty late before the meet to change it when we've been preparing for the other order.

[MK64MR]

Would be good to hear from organisers, mainly the people who bring CRTs, how many of them can display PAL. That's important for the 1-try tournament, I would like to know in advance if we'll run it on NTSC or PAL consoles. Stinson wants to participate, I hope most of the known time trialers will do, everyone is welcome of course.
I'll provide a special prize the winner will be awarded, would be great to have at least the short final on stream then!

[Jonesy]

There's been a lot of discussion recently on discord about the need for a schedule.

There have a been a few key points, which I will attempt to summarize:

• Have a set list of matches/times available the day before so people can plan their day/schedule accordingly.
• Limit the amount of tournament time during the day/afternoon as to avoid conflict with outdoor activities.
• Allow players arriving mid-week (myself and Lovins) to play their matches the day after they arrive - instead of playing the evening they arrive.
• Avoid scheduling matches during the typical dinner window (6-8 PM).
• Begin the tournament on Tuesday (as opposed to starting on Wednesday as we have done recently) to account for the increased number of playin rounds.

Here is my current proposal. Please provide thoughts and feedback so we can entertain everyone's opinions and hopefully come up with something that is agreeable to most of the people participating. Thanks.



This proposal essentially makes the standard tournament schedule 8-12 PM everyday from Tue-Fri, with the addition of the 2 Lovins playin rounds from 4-6 PM on Thursday and 4 R16 rounds (including the 2 Jones rounds) from 2-6 PM on Friday as well as a 1 hour break between the Semis and Finals on Friday evening. This means that the afternoon/daylight hours should be free and available for planning outdoor activities on TUE/WED and most of THU. FRI can then be more heavily kart-focused at the expense of planning formal/scheduled outdoor activities (i.e., if you want to take a trip out on the boat, go play tennis, etc. make sure you do it earlier in the week instead of waiting until Friday afternoon).

[DanBurbank]

I really like that schedule. Thanks for doing the work on that, Jones. Hopefully we can stick to something like that and make minor changes if people think something else will be better. Unfortunately, I don't see how we can have the finals at a good time for European viewers regardless, but maybe someone else has an idea.

[TheFlash]

I like the idea of timeslots selected at least one day in advance.  Having most matches in the evening and pre-planned should avoid some of the headaches we've endured before.

Specific responses to the sample you displayed above:

1. Finals on Friday should be earlier.  How about Semifinals at 4pm, 5pm, and the finals at 8pm? This is a better fit for Europeans to have at least a chance to watch the finals.  It is worth reshuffling some of the rest of the schedule to do this, either starting earlier on Friday or moving the non-Jones matches back to Thursday.

2. I think if a specific group of 4 wanted to choose a timeslot earlier than 8pm, they should be allowed to, as long as it is decided at least 12 or so hours in advance (the day before).  Some European visitors may have issues playing as late as midnight on Tuesday, for example.

3. There should be a clear and definite communication to each participant exactly when their race is and who they are against. Think "wristband with match time" or "prominently posted schedule in multiple locations". Maybe both.  I'm thinking something beyond "old laptop sitting around that you might be able to figure something out from", here.  Like, a printed piece of paper hanging on a wall that is always visible.

[no_control]

I almost completely agree with Thingy.

1. I don't think anyone should play 2 rounds in a row unless they want to. Schedule should be made in such a way that this is avoided. I think 1 hour break is enough.

Examples where someone will play 2 in a row in the schedule you posted:
Lovins matches on THU 4-6
R16 match 1B and R16 match 2A on THU 9-11
R16 match 1D and R16 match 2C on FRI 3-5

Basically we can have round 1 and round 2 playin matches in a row (if there will be 5 of them per round), but we shouldn't have any round 1 and round 2 R16 matches in a row.

2. There should be at least 1 hour break between any different tournament stage matches (playin and R16, R16 and SF, SF and F)

3. If a group of 4 people wants to play earlier they should be allowed to do this.

4. I don't see the need to decide x number of hours before they can play. I think if people want to play now and the projector is free, they should be allowed to do it.
The only reason for having some larger time period between change and actual match is if we want more audience on the stream.

As for the rest, i would also love to see finals at 8 PM, but based on above rules we would have to start on Friday at 12 the latest. This also means only 2 Jones R16 rounds can be played on Friday and 8 rounds have to be played on Thursday.
The question is the same again like with #4. Do we want to accommodate tournament players more or the people viewing it.

I would also like to have no or as few rounds possible on Tuesday to give everyone time to adjust and practice, but what you propose is not bad either.

[Jonesy]

1. Finals on Friday should be earlier.  How about Semifinals at 4pm, 5pm, and the finals at 8pm? This is a better fit for Europeans to have at least a chance to watch the finals.

I guess this goes down to, do we prioritize participants or viewers? It sounds like most of the discussion so far has been toward prioritizing the needs/wants of participants and allowing them to enjoy both aspects of the meet: the casual/social aspects and the tournament. Forcing an earlier semis/finals puts more constraints on the tournament scheduling and therefore constrains the flexibility of the participants (we have to complete 18 matches prior the semis, so moving up semis means we have fewer options for scheduling and completing those 18 matches). I'm not necessarily opposed to it, it just seems like most of the discussion so far has been on prioritizing the experience for participants.

2. I think if a specific group of 4 wanted to choose a timeslot earlier than 8pm, they should be allowed to, as long as it is decided at least 12 or so hours in advance (the day before).  Some European visitors may have issues playing as late as midnight on Tuesday, for example.

Agree with this.

3. There should be a clear and definite communication to each participant exactly when their race is and who they are against. Think "wristband with match time" or "prominently posted schedule in multiple locations". Maybe both.  I'm thinking something beyond "old laptop sitting around that you might be able to figure something out from", here.  Like, a printed piece of paper hanging on a wall that is always visible.

Agree with this.

[Jonesy]

1. I don't think anyone should play 2 rounds in a row unless they want to. Schedule should be made in such a way that this is avoided. I think 1 hour break is enough.

Examples where someone will play 2 in a row in the schedule you posted:
Lovins matches on THU 4-6
R16 match 1B and R16 match 2A on THU 9-11
R16 match 1D and R16 match 2C on FRI 3-5

For my R16 rounds, since we would be playing 4 R16 rounds, we would just schedule it something like this Jones, not-Jones, Jones, not-Jones, etc.

For Lovins, this is tougher because we are trying to satisfy two criteria: allow Lovins to play his matches the day after he arrives and finish the Playins so that we can begin R16 on Thursday. It seems like this would be entirely up to Lovins (since he would be the only person involved in both remaining Playin matches). We could give him the option of doing one or both of his rounds on Wednesday evening (if he preferred that to playing back to back). Or we could adjust the schedule so that there was an hour break between his two playin rounds on Thursday (3-4 and 5-6 for example). Really, we would just need to hear from Eddie on what he prefers.

Basically we can have round 1 and round 2 playin matches in a row (if there will be 5 of them per round), but we shouldn't have any round 1 and round 2 R16 matches in a row.

I'm not sure how we can accomplish this while preserving the allow Lovins and Jones to not play the same night they arrive requirement. How do you propose we reconcile that?

2. There should be at least 1 hour break between any different tournament stage matches (playin and R16, R16 and SF, SF and F)

I believe the current proposed schedule already does this.

4. I don't see the need to decide x number of hours before they can play. I think if people want to play now and the projector is free, they should be allowed to do it.
The only reason for having some larger time period between change and actual match is if we want more audience on the stream.

This would also impact those in the house who want to watch the match live. Again, this comes down to prioritizing participants vs. viewers (stream or in person).

[MK64MR]

Thanks for the effort so far, I would always adjust in favour of present participants rather than viewership, especially with so many hours of one big tournament.

[Jonesy]

1. I don't think anyone should play 2 rounds in a row unless they want to. Schedule should be made in such a way that this is avoided. I think 1 hour break is enough.

Examples where someone will play 2 in a row in the schedule you posted:
Lovins matches on THU 4-6
R16 match 1B and R16 match 2A on THU 9-11
R16 match 1D and R16 match 2C on FRI 3-5

For my R16 rounds, since we would be playing 4 R16 rounds, we would just schedule it something like this Jones, not-Jones, Jones, not-Jones, etc.

OK, I see the problem now. Basically, we can't preserve the no back-to-back criteria with any permutation of the R16 rounds and also preserve the Jones doesn't play the night he arrives criteria due to how the R16 pods work. We'd either have to do R16 R1 on Thur night and R16 R2 on Fri afternoon or we'd have to do only 3 R16 R1 on Thur night and then 6 hours of R16 R1 + R2 on Fri (My R1 match + hour break + 4 R2 matches). This would make for a very long schedule on Friday. I'm willing to play my R16 R1 match on Thursday evening (the night I arrive) for the sake of making everything else work out for the schedule - I would just ask for it to be the last one scheduled that evening to give me as much time as possible to practice before the match starts (I should arrive around 6-7 PM and then could shoot for my match starting at 11 PM).

[no_control]

For my R16 rounds, since we would be playing 4 R16 rounds, we would just schedule it something like this Jones, not-Jones, Jones, not-Jones, etc.

This is not good as i wrote in #1. Jones, notJones, Jones is not good enough because notJones match will for sure have at least 1 participant who will be in either Jones match. This means someone will play 2 rounds in a row.
Any round 2 R16 match will have exactly 1 participant form any round 1 R16 match which means that any round 2 R16 match shouldn't follow any round 1 R16 match. 
To solve this, Jones round 1 R16 match has to be the 1st match of the day on Friday followed by 1 hour break and then we can do whatever with R16 round 2 matches.

For Lovins, this is tougher because we are trying to satisfy two criteria: allow Lovins to play his matches the day after he arrives and finish the Playins so that we can begin R16 on Thursday. It seems like this would be entirely up to Lovins (since he would be the only person involved in both remaining Playin matches). We could give him the option of doing one or both of his rounds on Wednesday evening (if he preferred that to playing back to back). Or we could adjust the schedule so that there was an hour break between his two playin rounds on Thursday (3-4 and 5-6 for example). Really, we would just need to hear from Eddie on what he prefers.

I was thinking just doing 1 hour break between those matches. We can even put another round 2 match in between in case we have 5 races per round. That way we can have 3 matches in a row where no one play back to back. It is not possible for R16, but it is possible for playins because of more matches per round.
So Thursday would start with Lovins R1, some R2 without participants in Lovins matches, Lovins R2 and then whatever.

Basically we can have round 1 and round 2 playin matches in a row (if there will be 5 of them per round), but we shouldn't have any round 1 and round 2 R16 matches in a row.

I'm not sure how we can accomplish this while preserving the allow Lovins and Jones to not play the same night they arrive requirement. How do you propose we reconcile that?

Maybe i expressed myself wrong, when i say in a row i meant one after another without a break. 1 hour in between is fine and solves this.

2. There should be at least 1 hour break between any different tournament stage matches (playin and R16, R16 and SF, SF and F)

I believe the current proposed schedule already does this.

It does, this is just in general if someone else had something else in mind.

4. I don't see the need to decide x number of hours before they can play. I think if people want to play now and the projector is free, they should be allowed to do it.
The only reason for having some larger time period between change and actual match is if we want more audience on the stream.

This would also impact those in the house who want to watch the match live. Again, this comes down to prioritizing participants vs. viewers (stream or in person).

I think priority should be on the players and when they feel like playing.

[no_control]

1. I don't think anyone should play 2 rounds in a row unless they want to. Schedule should be made in such a way that this is avoided. I think 1 hour break is enough.

Examples where someone will play 2 in a row in the schedule you posted:
Lovins matches on THU 4-6
R16 match 1B and R16 match 2A on THU 9-11
R16 match 1D and R16 match 2C on FRI 3-5

For my R16 rounds, since we would be playing 4 R16 rounds, we would just schedule it something like this Jones, not-Jones, Jones, not-Jones, etc.

OK, I see the problem now. Basically, we can't preserve the no back-to-back criteria with any permutation of the R16 rounds and also preserve the Jones doesn't play the night he arrives criteria due to how the R16 pods work. We'd either have to do R16 R1 on Thur night and R16 R2 on Fri afternoon or we'd have to do only 3 R16 R1 on Thur night and then 6 hours of R16 R1 + R2 on Fri (My R1 match + hour break + 4 R2 matches). This would make for a very long schedule on Friday. I'm willing to play my R16 R1 match on Thursday evening (the night I arrive) for the sake of making everything else work out for the schedule - I would just ask for it to be the last one scheduled that evening to give me as much time as possible to practice before the match starts (I should arrive around 6-7 PM and then could shoot for my match starting at 11 PM).

Another thing we could do is have 3 R1 matches between 8 and 11 and at least 1 R2 match before dinner on Thursday.

So this is how i see Friday and Thursday

Friday minimum 2 Jones R16 matches  - which means we have to have 3 R16 round 1 matches between 3-6 and 3 R16 round 2 matches between 8 and 11 + 2 lovins matches from 11 to 12 and 1 to 2

Friday maximum 5 R16 matches - R16 round 1 Jones  12 to 1 and R16 round 2 matches from 2-6 which leaves Thursday completely open.

Any variation in between those 2 solutions is fine.

[wheatrich]

To me this looks like a giant clusterfuck.  Odds are things gonna get delayed and this is a longer tournament than we usually have.

[Jonesy]

To me this looks like a giant clusterfuck.  Odds are things gonna get delayed and this is a longer tournament than we usually have.

What do you propose to solve this?

[DanBurbank]

It will only be a giant clusterfuck if we don't have some kind of organization going into it like this considering that there are more people and more rounds this year.

[NathanStinson]

Another suggestion brought up is allowing play-in rounds to play at the same time on different screens. Most people want to play on stream though. The network bandwitch probably wouldn't support two streams if someone like abney also brought a mobile setup?

[kyleb30]

If you're prioritizing participants, then allowing them to abruptly say "we're playing our match now" should be allowed. Otherwise, I think the proposed schedule looks good (without diving too much into matches per day/match order specifics).

[Ngamer]

Everything being talking about today sounds very doable, I just wanted to include one brief note as regards the "me and my 4 guys are all ready and want to go downstairs and play our match now" situation.

The end goal here is to have a laptop upstairs and something printed out downstairs that would say "here are the 6 matches happening today, these 4 people will be involved in each, and here are the times for all of them."  Everyone in the tournament needs to look that over at breakfast or lunch and plan their day around it, in terms of knowing you need to be in the house and available just during that particular hour or two.

The trouble is that if the 8pm group gets together at lunchtime and decides to play right away, we'd LIKE to move all the matches after that to take place an hour earlier but now we've moved the schedule around and people's plans all need to change.  That shouldn't be such a big deal at night, but in the later days when things are scheduled for the afternoon we're going to have players going out for an hour boat ride at 4pm because this match isn't supposed to start until after 5 but whoops the schedule shifted and now we only have 3 of the 4 players downstairs for the one match we need to get in before we can start the next round.

That's why Thingy's trying to push for the schedule that comes out in the morning being set in stone.  Now if you prefer playing in the afternoon instead of evening that's fine, you can still find the other 3 players from your group on Tuesday and ask if they'd all be okay playing at 4pm Wednesday afternoon, if they agree to it just let Third know and that's what the schedule will say on Wednesday morning and we should be all good at that point.  It's just the day-of changes that would lead to headaches and complicate things.

(Obviously those are still going to happen, it's just that we're trying to keep them to a minimum this year.)

[DanBurbank]

Let's say 4 people doing an 8PM match decide to play their match earlier. Couldn't the 9PM people still just play at 9PM? Don't see why that's a problem, it might be a little weird but so what?

I will say that I think we should try to keep viewers in mind for the semis and finals. The schedule for those should not change regardless IMO.

[Lovins]

I appreciate you guys trying to work things around my late arrival. It would definitely be nice to start on Thursday instead of Wednesday so I can get in some practice rounds first. As for the possibility of playing twice in a row, I don't really care either way...whatever's best for the schedule. Part of me wouldn't mind knocking out both play-ins one after the other.

Overall, since I recognize my coming late is a slight hurdle to this insanely epic tournament, and because I don't expect to be quite the championship contender I've been in the past, any schedule that is made will be just fine with me.

I am in support of schedules being set in stone in the morning. If a group unanimously wants to play earlier that's cool but other matches shouldn't be automatically moved up as a result (unless those groups agree to it). Also, player preferences should supersede viewer preferences. But I do think some effort should be made to have the Finals at a reasonable hour, if at all possible (maybe not possible from what I'm reading).

Such great logistical progress we've made since I won the 2010 GE tourney at 4:40 AM...

[flukey lukey]

I'm not a Karter myself but I feel like the excitement for the tourney at this VA is pretty high! Can't wait to watch on stream, hopefully live if the timing lands on a weekend.

[NathanStinson]

Every tournament participant should be required to look at the schedule every day after getting up so they can know when to play that day