Author Topic: World Records Tiers & Good Time Index (GTI)  (Read 15469 times)

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World Records Tiers & Good Time Index (GTI)
« on: June 27, 2017, 03:05:00 pm »
Tier list as of October 11th, 2018:



WR Tiers Changelog:
Spoiler
Jun 27, 2017 - Tier list created
Jul 01, 2017 - Jungle A 0:50 moved from t3 to t4
Oct 01, 2017 - Caverns A moved from t4 to t5
Nov 25, 2017 - Runway 31, S2 SA 47, Aztec 135, Silo 107 tiers added. New color scheme enacted
Dec 03, 2017 - Dam 52 tier added
Dec 18, 2017 - Archives 15 tier added
Feb 03, 2018 - Archives 53s, Train 148, Egypt 44, Runway 29 tiers added. Caverns 101 demoted to t6
Mar 10, 2018 - Depot 46 tier added
May 22, 2018 - Bunker 20 tier added
July 08, 2018 - Surface 2 46 tier added
July 10, 2018 - Runway 28 tier added, Egypt 44/Depot 39 tiers adjusted
Aug 05, 2018 - Several tiers changed to match GTI tiers
Aug 21, 2018 - Egypt 44 SA/00 added. Jungle 50 demoted to t4, aztec 00 demoted t2, train 123 demoted to t2, s2 46/47 demoted to t6/t6.
Sep 03, 2018 - Bunker 16 added
Sep 25, 2018 - Cradle 33/33/33 added
Oct 11, 2018 - Jungle 52 added

Good Time Index as of September 03, 2018:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Euzb_uF8W5VQspvcAcds4MUdBO-BJRGwOiE9Yu7EFSE/edit?ts=5b662070#gid=918651796



GTI Changelog:
Spoiler
Aug 04, 2018 - GTI Created
Aug 21, 2018 - Updated to reflect new tiers/untieds
Sep 03, 2018 - Updated with B1 16
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 06:52:58 pm by Grav »

Alec M.

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2017, 03:12:51 pm »
Wonderful idea. I'd say let's sticky it but..........We have 8 already.  :v :$

Think it's worth adding another? This is a thread that should be referred to fairly often, imo.
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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2017, 03:44:58 pm »
I consolidated ogran's thread into the tutorial sticky, so I will sticky this now.

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2017, 07:24:36 pm »
Maybe I'm just colour-blind but 2 & 3 are so similar in shade I can barely tell them apart

Thanks for this though it's clear what WRs my noob-self should be aiming for...  :v

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2017, 03:17:25 pm »
The ones that stick out to me would be Control 356 in comparison to Jungle 50 and 53, I'm not sure if jungles should go down a tier but 356 should at least be brought to same tier particularly when 2.x is now a thing on Jungle. For SA there's the new mine strat to avoid the drone back and you also have the option to run Xenia even though that one is really difficult these new strats make it alot easier and gives players several options on how to get the time.

356 still requires good beginnings which are really annoying because of guard animations and you need a pretty solid run to nat with the right boostage and solid glass, what makes it really difficult though is that there's the ending that needs to be very well timed and usually you can't afford to have even .1 or .2 either too early or too late leave because you risk either fail or a low 357 run. Then there's offcourse the backing of Nat bringing her Health really low, mystery time losses (yea it really is a thing) there's basically just alot of small rng stuff that can make it alot more of a pain than the jungles.

If you look at the time people took to get 356 I Think you will probably find everyone found it harder than jungles (bear in mind these are people who probably sucked at jungle when they started going for it :kappa:) and only Clem somewhat caked it (talking about the removed 356) probably pretty flukey even for Clem back then.

Other one would be 147 s1, I haven't played the level much in years but the kind of strafing and boostage seems like something only very few people could pull off with 2.x atm. It's a tough call though but to me it seems like a tier 2 time.

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2017, 04:32:36 pm »
Yea I am slightly colorblind and 2/3 look exactly the same. Can you adjust it to make it look a tad different plz.
Daniel Wodahs-Relklaw Coelho

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2017, 06:13:38 pm »
yeah sorry, i knew it was kind of bad but i was trying to make 8 distinct colors as best as i could. should be better now... let me know if you have any other problems

Wodahs-Reklaw

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2017, 08:27:50 pm »
Thanks man deuteranopia sux
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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2017, 08:52:48 pm »
After some discord discussion I think we came to an agreement that Jungle 50 is now tier 4 and generally the same difficulty as Control 356 assuming you have best versions to get the time.

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2017, 12:20:27 pm »
just 50? or 53 too?

changed 50 for now.

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2017, 05:41:47 pm »
So I lost a tier 3 time and 356 stayed tier 4, I guess I fucked up :kappa:

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2017, 02:43:49 pm »
Proposing demoting caverns 101 to tier 5 for now. Is there agreement?

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2017, 01:32:21 am »
Tier 8 or 9 tbh

But really Cavs 101 was slightly harder than Egypt A 45, which is a Tier 6; so Tier 5 is probably accurate.

Jungle SA 53 should get bumped up to Tier 2 imo.
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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2017, 10:08:14 am »
Just a visualization thing, I think that table would look a little better if you used some kind of color scale/theme, like use hot colors for top tiers and cold colors for bottom tiers, or something in that line. Dark blue and purple for top tiers and dark red for bottom tier kinda messes up with my head :kappa:

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2017, 05:15:09 am »
Proposing demoting caverns 101 to tier 5 for now. Is there agreement?
do it mate

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2017, 01:38:53 pm »
done

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2017, 03:35:37 pm »
aztec 135 tier 2?

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2017, 09:40:36 pm »
updated with new color scheme and tier updates for new untieds

Alec M.

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2017, 12:12:57 pm »
updated with new color scheme and tier updates for new untieds

Mate today's the 26th, not the 27th  :v
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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2017, 11:18:32 pm »
Dam 52, Tier 1+
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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2017, 06:50:51 am »
Going to go against the grain and say Dam 0:52 is not tier 1. It's still very, very good, and incredibly historic, but ignoring the bias of the hype surrounding it, is it really as difficult that only a couple top players could ever achieve it like Control SA 4:03 or Train Agent 0:57? I really don't think so.

I think the most comparable Goldeneye WR would be Streets 00A 1:54 in requiring exceptional boost luck, low lag, and very tight lines all throughout. It's not nearly as tight on time, nor does it have a major clutch moment (lock shot), but it's also over twice as long and has a lot more chaos in it. Dam 0:52 is certainly better, but keep in mind that Streets 00A 1:54 is in tier 4.

The best overall comparison would be Chicago Agent 0:14, which is indeed tier 1, and also nearly a quarter in length as Dam 0:52. With Chicago 0:14 though, Clemens literally completed his single best case run ever with a clean ending, implying you need to be nearly if not actually perfect and perhaps also requiring a magical low lag ending, while also clutching out the mine throw (far harder than the lock shot).

I can see players including Illu, Boss, Wodahs, Luke, Gus, Calle, Ace, Clemens, and many more achieving 0:52, but can't say the same for the tier 1 and tier 2 Goldeneye WRs. In my uninformed opinion, I'm going to suggest Dam 0:52 is tier 3, maybe tier 2, but certainly not tier 1. I think once more players try for it, we'll see more clearly how strong the record is, somewhat like what Runway SA 0:22 has gone through, once looking completely ballistic, and now sitting in tier 7 with basically no changes to the level. Now that Karl has laid out the groundwork on what to do (wait for the first boost, how to use the gate trick, focus on low lag, etc), the first few ties will come much easier.

Edit: 1:54 not 1:55.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 09:47:28 pm by Icy »

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2017, 07:13:40 am »
Laughable post.
*Creator of 'waiting half a sec more cutscene' on b2 agent*
*Creator of 'bounce boost' on streets agent*
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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2017, 08:51:19 am »
the thing is only karl really knows what dam 52 is like. people like boss and illu also have good ideas as well but even still, they didn't actually get the time.

even if karl is either being very biased or is just mistaken somehow about the strength of the time, any blatantly incorrect tiering will iron itself out for sure on a level as notorious as this one. if somehow in the next couple years, several people get dam 52 and have the opinion that its not as strong as karl claims, then we can adjust.

boss/illu and other experienced dam agent players are welcome to share thoughts here as well, but for now ill rank it as tier 1

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2017, 08:58:20 am »
updated

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2017, 09:32:31 am »
I'm almost 100% sure I would never tie dam 52 because I've already done many of those simple level grinds in the past and one more might kill me. But I guess I can see someone very dedicated player putting in the time and eventually tieing it. Other records like Train 57 probably not that many will have the skill for but I would encourage more people to go and try develop skills for levels like train. I think all too often people think it's easier to go to a level like dam and get some mediocre run with a boost and get their 53 rather than go for levels like facility or train where they could develop actual skill.

Like I'm not sure if anyone will agree but I think that levels that take less skill like dam agent are never able to be as good as a really tight time on a higher skill level even though it would be less maxed. I'd say 52 is tier 2, and I'd say the same about chicago 14 tbh because it's simply too short of a level I'm more impressed by G5 records, even though both 52 and 14 are incredibly perfected.


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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2017, 09:44:44 am »
@Icy: Runway 22 pace became much easier with 2.x, not comparable. And the streets WR is 154  :kappa:

52 is tier 1 imo. The gap between getting low 53s and actually completing a 52 is huge. Don't forget the INSANE clutchness you need to nail that lockshot and complete the level in a near perfect 3:0 fast gate run. Karl could maybe share some of his knowledge there, but 52 looks just too fucked up in so many ways, specially the "mental factor" or whatever you wanna call it (and luck obviously). I can't see any skilled player out there fluking a 52 with less than 100 hour or something.

Just saying that the same way Train 57 is tier 1 because it demands some very high raw skill, Dam 52 is tier 1 because it demands a huge amount of persistence, fucking insane luck and very precise execution (aka don't mess up). It's just not fair at all to put it on tier 2, I think.

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2017, 10:10:04 am »
Putting it in Tier 2 would rank it below a seven year old TWR on B2 SA. Also below Frigate SA, Silo SA, and Control 00, which were all gotten with reasonable effort by the respective players. Dam 52 on the other hand requires perfect execution when getting once-every-100-hours luck and would require insane commitment to get from every Top 5 player (I don't think it can reasonably be gotten with just two boosts). That doesn't sound right. Thus, Tier 1 imho.

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2017, 09:30:34 pm »
Dam 52 is like a maxed version of S2 00A. You gotta clutch your rare luck of 3 boosts (far more rare than 2 nade pulls at the start of S2 btw). I won't peg a tier on the time, but if Karl takes that many hours to get it, it has to be pretty good since he cakes mostly everything else in comparison.

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2017, 09:40:01 pm »
Vid explanation coming.
*Creator of 'waiting half a sec more cutscene' on b2 agent*
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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2017, 09:47:48 pm »
Cool, I'm convinced.

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2017, 10:06:16 pm »
B2 SA 0:44 is not tier 1, should be a solid tier 2 imo.

I'll have to actually get it first before arguing for a change but I failed many 44s and even a legit 43 going for it - also, this ignores the potential for an insane run with the fast version of Henrik strat.

As for Dam 52, this is where the tier system breaks down a bit. Obviously it has less demanding OCB than the start of Control 00A or Train Agent locks on WR pace, but the perfection, boost luck, restarting, boredom, random lag timeloss, gate odds, boost odds, waiting for 3:0, lockshot + clutch ending make it an extremely difficult + formidable time to grind for. It's looks weird as a tier 1 but so does a level as short as Chicago 14 -but both similarly require insanity in the run itself and the grind for it. 

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2017, 05:29:58 am »
*Creator of 'waiting half a sec more cutscene' on b2 agent*
*Creator of 'bounce boost' on streets agent*
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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2017, 04:59:53 pm »
After watching that analysis I might consider 52 to be tier 3 at best, but probably 4, it's just too degen... nah but really I'm thankful to have watched that so I won't go spending hours on something that might never happen.

It's a rare gem, tier 52.


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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2017, 07:08:51 pm »
15 tier 3.
*Creator of 'waiting half a sec more cutscene' on b2 agent*
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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2017, 07:15:04 pm »
updated

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2018, 10:06:57 am »
Question: is there a way to express difficulty difference betwee tiers? I take it tier 1 isn't necessarily 8 times as difficult as tier 8? If you have like a scale.. you could match WR's with number of ties and decently tell how overtied certain WRs really are.

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2018, 10:13:07 am »
im trying to make something like this possible but it will take a long time

see: https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=22227.0

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2018, 07:13:34 pm »
Upd8 pls

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2018, 06:06:54 pm »
updated, train 148 obviously still tier 1

arch 53s i made tier 4 for now, although gus said its tier 5. although its markedly easier than agent, it still requires 2.x mastery and is without a doubt harder than all the tier 5 times from my estimation. further info from more players can help fine tune the tiers of course.

egypt 44 i made tier 3 by karls request

runway 29 remains the same tier because the new route makes it 1 tier easier, and 29 was originally 1 tier harder than 0:31... so it cancels out

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2018, 06:43:56 pm »
Caverns 101 is most certainly tier 6 now. It's not bad to get 2 boosts + box boost the same run and being able to avoid drone back at the end. Then you just need 1 more boost elsewhere or a clean run without any additional boosts. Guards can troll though and the strafing needs to be decent, so it's certainly not tier 7.

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2018, 06:46:33 pm »
i agree with boss (and have felt this way since I got it). i think we both know the level well enough to make this change now. any strong opposition feel free to post but for now i will change it

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2018, 08:26:58 am »
yes, +1 to this change

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2018, 01:23:37 am »
Streets SA 1:54 is a Tier 2 time.  I was thinking about it tonight.  I mean really, if it weren't for the most INTJ eliter possible studying the level on the level of atomic physics and also pumping 200 hours into it, it'd be the Longest Standing Untied.

If I were exaggerating how good it was, I'd put it in Tier 1, or Tier 1+ or Tier 0.  But Tier 2 is a very, very appropriate spot for it.
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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2018, 02:54:29 pm »
depot 46 added

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2018, 06:38:17 pm »
b1 20 added

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2018, 11:11:06 am »
I think Fac 43 should be considered for dropping down to tier 4. It was possibly tier 3 without any of the new strats (most notably the right strafe strat heading into labs saving .2) but it really isn't that strong anymore. All of the other tier 3 times are far harder than 43 and some of the tier 4 times are well.

I also think frig 105 should be tier 3 given the low odds.

I also think egypt 44 should be demoted to tier 4 because it is also much easier than other tier 3 times.

Also with the mainframe strat I use depot 39 is tier 5. I was getting 39 pace mainframe completes every 15-30 mins, took a couple of hours total to get with the new strat and had several 39 pace missed TS before I got it.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 11:20:10 am by Botched Movie Quotes »
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*Creator of 'strafe change laser skip' on inves*

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2018, 05:17:59 pm »
i think levels that become easier and/or exposed with new strats should wait until players actually use those strats to achieve the time before re-evaluating the time's tier standing, at least when the difference is only 1 tier. obviously if like we discover some way to depot warp 100% of the time, we dont need to really wait to classify it as tier 8. in facility's case, the time is still only ever achieved by top players but it is most certainly far easier than it was when ace first untied it. would like to hear more from other fac 43 players about this too.

frig 105 is a hard one to rank imo because we all have vastly different opinions on how much lottery luck should factor into quantifying the difficulty/strength of a time. on one hand, only very good players have ever achieved a sub 109 frig 00. on the other hand, much much worse players could get it if they just get lucky and some (like twiii with 105 bug fail) should actually have it despite most likely not being capable of any other tier 3 times in the game. id want other frig experts to weigh in on this for sure

egypt 44 can still be tier 3 and be easier than all the other tier 3s though. obviously you do know best since you achieved the time but it just seems weird to demote it when nothing has changed since it was achieved and nobody has even tried for it

i think depot 39 should probably be tier 5 so i agree with this

« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 08:22:54 pm by Grav »

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2018, 05:30:23 pm »
I 100% agree that 39 is tier 5

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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2018, 11:14:24 pm »
With egypt 44 what has happened is that the honeymoon period after i got the time has passed and i can evaluate the strength of the time without bias. Honestly it may even be tier 5. It is legit an easy time to get. It is less tight than 45 was with the old strats as the warp saves 1 second over the crounch strat but you can still easily use 2.x saving 1.3 total. The only difficulty is that the warp is tricky but that gets offset somewhat by the fact that you no longer need the best barron deaths cause you have an extra .3.
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Re: Strength of World Records Continuous Update Thread
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2018, 03:59:43 am »
I knew 0:44 was overrated before I even got it (I didn't have a superpad at that time (also explains why I do not have Runway SA 0:22)) and a few people got salty at that statement. A lot of my later grinds were with 1.2 only and then I stopped caring about the level altogether. Karl is spot on with the analysis. The extra few tenths of leeway you have is critical because there's a handful of other deaths that are good enough for 0:44 instead of the best one which is almost a whopping .2 quicker than the second best one. That was NEEDED for 0:45 the first time around (when Clemens & I got it 10 years ago) and it was almost a pain getting both best deaths on the same run. Because of the mentality of not requiring the best deaths 0:44 doesn't seem that difficult in comparison. I don't think it's a case of demoting it when nothing has changed.. it's more of a 'it shouldn't have been ranked this high in the first place'.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 04:07:25 am by Apache Spark »