Author Topic: Regarding Achievements and Points on The Duel  (Read 1165 times)

AZ

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Regarding Achievements and Points on The Duel
« on: November 08, 2017, 06:07:23 pm »
After the decision to strip The Duel from points, some things have been bugging me on the rankings. I'll list my concerns:


The Streaker Achievement: "Obtain 300 points on a single stage".

There are currently 63 people who have Duel 3/6/9 i.e all WRs on the level. However, if we should remain consistent, players who have been granted this achievement in the past solely for having swept Duel (and have NOT obtained 300 points on any another GE/PD stage), should have their Streaker-Achievement revoked. At the time of writing, 36 players have been granted the Streaker-achievement for having swept Duel although they haven't held 300 points on any stage. I find this very contradictory.

Suggestion: we either revoke these achievements OR we rename the Streaker-Achievement to "Obtain all World Records on a single stage" instead. That way, the players with Duel 3/6/9 will keep their achievements.

The 36 players in question who should have the Streaker-achievement revoked if we decide on the former solution (i.e. these players haven't held all 3 WRs on another stage simultaneously):

Spoiler
ShadowZero
Bizichyld
Narigutita
Dark Slayer
Henning Blom
Mithrhil
Carathorn
Otto Oksman
JonaEru
50 Cent
AT Allianz
Zezinho
Neo
ZAZKEN
Brandon Sanford
Icy
Spec
Flicker
TroubleClef92
Jezz
Timokles
Sam Fisher
♡ Madoka ♡
Infiltrater
Cck
Carnski
Wabs
QB
Vincent Rolin
Dark Master
Falcon
Mg
Chuya Takizawa
Dark One
Keefer
Vulpex


Duel should not be given points on LTK Rankings

This is pretty basic. Duel is not given points on the Normal Mode Rankings so why should Duel-times be worth points on LTK? To make it consistent, having a PD (D)LTK Rankings with 4000 points instead of 4200 is the way to go. Currently, having 4200 points on one rankings and 6000 points on the other makes the entire rankings page look flawed and inconsistent.

Duel should however be considered and added for the Total Time Rankings on both Normal mode and LTK mode (it currently is and Duel is a level after all so that part is fine already imo).


Thoughts?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 06:28:46 pm by AZ »

vitorr

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Re: Regarding Achievements and Points on The Duel
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2017, 08:59:06 am »
Thanks for the input, Axel. I was responsible for the Duel changes, and actually there is a branch still open regarding the LTK changes plus many other fixes to "weird" behaviors, such as Duel being marked as WR in the player points page, for example (you can check the list here, not sure if it's fully updated). Basically after two or so weeks we talked again and it was decided to just strip off the points and fix wherever that change would lead into broken stuff (eg. Duel leaderboard would have 500+ people in the leaderboard, so we took that out), and that's what went live.

Anyway, regarding your suggestions, personally I'd just remove the Streaker and World Record Holder achievements from everyone who only got Duel records. Checking the code, the Streaker is given only when a player get 300 points (so it was already 'disabled' to new players since Duel gives 0 points), but World Record Holder doesn't check points, meaning that it's still being given to people who get one of Duel 3/6/9. Thingy could confirm that.

I 100% agree that changes to normal ranks should be mirrored into LTK, but I think we should just not consider Duel in total times calculations (personal preference).

It's a matter of the council discussing all the suggestions given (including yours and others) and telling us exactly what are the changes to be done. Right now I don't see anyone interested in doing that, though  :nesquik:

404

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Re: Regarding Achievements and Points on The Duel
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2017, 09:25:13 am »
  • Definitely revoke achievements
  • Reward no points in (D)LTK
  • Include in time rankings
IMHO

AZ

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Re: Regarding Achievements and Points on The Duel
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2017, 01:14:58 pm »
personally I'd just remove the Streaker and World Record Holder achievements from everyone who only got Duel records. Checking the code, the Streaker is given only when a player get 300 points (so it was already 'disabled' to new players since Duel gives 0 points), but World Record Holder doesn't check points, meaning that it's still being given to people who get one of Duel 3/6/9. Thingy could confirm that.

Well technically 3/6/9 are World Records so we should either continue granting the WR-achievement when players do obtain a WR on Duel OR clarify on the rankings so new players don't get confused with something like "The Duel doesn't give points, nor does obtaining World Records on the stage grant you the World Record Holder-Achievement".

I do want The Duel to be included in the time rankings. I am of the opinion that if we don't include it, we might as well remove Duel completely from the rankings. Obtaining the 3:30:00 and 3:00:00-achievements would become slightly easier without The Duel (like 18 seconds easier).

Luckily, of all the 15 The Big 10K-achievements none had to be revoked since all the 15 players with this achievement held over 10,300+ points between the games at one point in their respective careers.

Another minor thing that needs to be raised is the fact that Paragon's Duel PA 0:09 doesn't count as an untied on the WR Database, but the untieds on the (D)LTK Database does. In order to mirror the normal ranks with LTK ranks and be consistent, Woll could strip the Duel-untieds from untied status on the LTK database.

By including Duel in time rankings, your hours invested into the level will at least in some way be featured on the rankings. Having 3/6/9 should give you a higher time rank than if you have 3/7/11 or 3/NA/NA imo.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 01:22:42 pm by AZ »

vitorr

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Re: Regarding Achievements and Points on The Duel
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2017, 02:34:05 pm »
Yeah good arguments there Axel. Like I said, I'm cool with whatever is decided. Personally I find it weird to have it considered on the time ranks and not give it any points and consider it a World Record. Too fucked up imo. Since we started this whole discussion what makes more sense to me is having Duel as a complete separated bonus level (don't give points, don't consider it in your total time and is not a World Record by any means, including related achievements, and all of that applies to LTK). I'd keep it in the ranks to preserve history.

Good catch in the big time/points achievements there, but imo what's in the past stays in the past. I mean, even if you had someone who barely joined the Big 10k using Duel points, whatever, it was the rule back then. And yeah, we should have Paragon untied fixed like you said, it's history right there.

Alec M.

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Re: Regarding Achievements and Points on The Duel
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2017, 05:57:26 pm »
- rename achievement to somehow state it's granted for 3/3 WRs on a level, rather than 300 points
- Take out of time ranks, L/DLTK ranks for consistency

« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 06:07:45 am by Alec M. »
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Re: Regarding Achievements and Points on The Duel
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2017, 01:19:16 am »
- Remoke the 36 Duel "Streakers"

- Rework the terms "Streak, Streaker" whenever used in the context of Achievements to "Sweep, Sweeper."
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AZ

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Re: Regarding Achievements and Points on The Duel
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2017, 10:52:47 am »
Any update on this?

Also: https://rankings.the-elite.net/rare-ranks/leaders

Should say "Records for Duel are not counted."

mw

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Re: Regarding Achievements and Points on The Duel
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2018, 12:45:32 am »
ATTN Elite Rankings Personnel: Can I get a ruling on whether or not I should get the streaker achievement? The players listed in the above post have not had their achievements removed, and I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that I am the first person to achieve the Duel sweep after it no longer gave points. I know that Duel still gives the WR holder achievement (see recent recipient Vermin), so it seems inconsistent for it to give one achievement and not the other. I think that now that this has become an issue, it should finally be resolved.
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Alka Maass

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Re: Regarding Achievements and Points on The Duel
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2018, 01:28:42 am »
ATTN Elite Rankings Personnel: Can I get a ruling on whether or not I should get the streaker achievement? The players listed in the above post have not had their achievements removed, and I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that I am the first person to achieve the Duel sweep after it no longer gave points. I know that Duel still gives the WR holder achievement (see recent recipient Vermin), so it seems inconsistent for it to give one achievement and not the other. I think that now that this has become an issue, it should finally be resolved.
duel don't count as WRs on the leaders page, duel WR achievements should be removed

AZ

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Re: Regarding Achievements and Points on The Duel
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2018, 02:52:43 pm »
Well as said earlier (and like it or not), but Duel 3/6/9 are world records. "Obtain a world record" is what it takes to get the achievement. It does NOT say "Obtain a non-Duel world record". So that part is very consistent.

However, MW is right that something should be done with those Streaker-achievements. It's a rather sensitive subject, and otherwise very logical and consistent people don't want their Streaker-achievement to be retroactively revoked. This is likely one of the main reasons nothing has still been done about this, and why the issue keeps being hushed down and ignored.

I'm all for consistency and, as a matter of fact, the players in question could still end up keeping their achievement but then it must be renamed.

Quote
Suggestion: we either revoke these achievements OR we rename the Streaker-Achievement to "Obtain all World Records on a single stage" instead. That way, the players with Duel 3/6/9 will keep their achievements.

If we do the latter, naturally MW should be granted the achievement.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 02:58:43 pm by AZ »

Vermin

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Re: Regarding Achievements and Points on The Duel
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2018, 03:27:52 pm »
Shoutout to me  :smirk: