Poll

Do you support the idea of making a video link REQUIRED to even post a 60 point+ PR?

Yes
41 (83.7%)
No, keep the current system
5 (10.2%)
No, but I still want to improve our current system (comment/post)
3 (6.1%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?  (Read 1605 times)

Grav

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[POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« on: December 03, 2017, 09:29:00 am »
So after luke and troubleclef's issue, it reminded me to bring this back up. This 30 day proof window thing seems to be the LAST remaining super archaic rule that leaves me scratching my head. Nearly every relevant community in all of speedrunning requires a video to submit times and has been that way for years. Have a look:

Spoiler


Your run may be stuck in verification for WEEKS lol. My proposal is nowhere that strict.

Here are the strongest reasons to support videos being required for 60+ times:

1. It makes the proof mod's job significantly easier.

If we have this rule, the only thing the proof mod will have to do is check if the video URL posted in the submission gives adequate proof. If not, they backroll it immediately and notify the runner in the proof call thread. Simple as that. Abuse of this system to claim a time with a dummy link before actually having proof would be punished somehow that we can decide later.

2. Nobody has to remember to do shit.

There will no longer be a burden on the procrastinating runners to remember to make a video three weeks after they submit a time. Proof mods will not be burdened with having to remind those runners to submit videos. Life is easy.

3. It synergizes with our already existing rule of significant claimed times not being credited until proof is shown.

As of now in the proof policy, your untied or untied slaying time DOES NOT COUNT until you prove it. This is basically the same thing as requiring videos to submit. The only difference this new rule would create is now ALL 60+ times do not count until you prove it... since it would be impossible to even claim a time without proving it first. Nobody cares whether their 83 point time is posted immediately anyway, so I don't think it will be a problem at all to require vids for these times too.

4. It makes our leaderboards more legitimate and simpler at the same time.

Pretty self explanatory. No more monthly proof calls.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 09:47:34 am by Grav »

Re: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2017, 11:44:07 am »
1. Excellent. Dummy links would make the time rolled immediately, in my opinion. It's the same as providing inadequate proof, whether they did it on purpose or by mistake. It would be great just to have a "Verify" button to confirm the posting of a time.

2. Proof mods are currently not burdened with holding any hands.  :v Burden of proof lies on the player.

3. 100%.

4. Proof call threads will still exist but will be significantly different. For example, some special cases for sub 60-point times (see: the Larkin Rule), etc. This would be an incredible improvement to the site. We all visit it regularly enough that times submitted wouldn't take a month to get approved as in a proof call post being made. This is a significant and viable step toward site improvement and organisation.

vitorr

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Re: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2017, 05:11:32 pm »
It's done, please check #81 on gitlab.

Thanks to Ace for helping with the query and validation  :kappa:

EDIT: the branch was pushed to the repo but it's not live ofc. Need a word from Scott.

TheFlash

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Re: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2017, 09:20:48 pm »
This might negatively affect the experience of anyone who still mails their VHS tapes to the proof moderator. Right now the rules probably allow them to post their time on the date achieved, mail their tape as soon as possible, and be verified with the postmarked date by the proof moderator after receipt and upload.

You probably think I'm just being silly but basically if you want to make a technical change like this it will possibly require some updating of the rules as well.

It doesn't seem to change the burden on a proof moderator too much. They would still be *responsible* for keeping things clean but just like today, they can be assisted by the entire community at any time.  The rules are still written with that proof period included....we've had some interesting resistance to the idea of the proof period before, such as a player submitting a time at the start of one month with the intention of waiting to prove it until the end of the following month, *just* to demonstrate that the rule is silly.  I was a little surprised no one campaigned to change these rules back then...maybe it's time.

This is starting to get close to the position I've long held that all times (or all important times?) should be sent to a holding area to be reviewed by at least 1 human before being published.  A proof individual could still be responsible for the integrity of the rankings, but anyone else could click a button to vouch for a time being at least plausible before it is posted to avoid any "overnight hijacking" situations or "you want a link? here's a video of some turtles swimming" jokes.

Re: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2017, 12:28:14 am »
This is starting to get close to the position I've long held that all times (or all important times?) should be sent to a holding area to be reviewed by at least 1 human before being published.  A proof individual could still be responsible for the integrity of the rankings, but anyone else could click a button to vouch for a time being at least plausible before it is posted to avoid any "overnight hijacking" situations or "you want a link? here's a video of some turtles swimming" jokes.

Now I'm a bit confused on this idea. If I'm correct I think grav is wanting to have the vid compulsory for posting a time. False links will get immediately backrolled/receive some kind of punishment TBD. An interesting idea would be to upgrade to the speedrun.com method of using this same idea but requiring the proof mod of the respective game/league approve the link/post before it gets applied to the rankings.

TheFlash

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Re: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2017, 12:34:21 am »
requiring the proof mod of the respective game/league approve the link/post before it gets applied to the rankings.

Imagine being personally responsible for any delays and being the butt of every joke. "The human bottleneck is at it again!" "I swear he hasn't logged in in over 4 hours..." "My grandma could approve this time faster."

Grav

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Re: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2017, 06:14:37 pm »
I personally am very against wait queue verification. It works for RTA communities because they have a volume of runs significantly lower than IL ones. We have more runners than 99% of games and 60 speedrun categories for each game compared to 2 or 3 categories for the RTA community. If the proof mod goes to sleep, I don't think people want the rankings to be held hostage until he wakes up. The wait queue for being accepted on the rankings is already bad enough (does ANYONE like this?)

If the runner proves his time, his run should be on the rankings the moment he submits.

TheFlash

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Re: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2017, 07:03:42 pm »
---

Side note.

If the proof mod goes to sleep, I don't think people want the rankings to be held hostage until he wakes up.

I specifically suggested that any member of the site should be able to vouch for a video, not just the proof moderator, for that reason.  There is a warm fuzzy feeling available especially for lower ranked players knowing that someone actually looked at their time and said "hmm, seems reasonable" and clicked a Verify button when they got a ping just seconds after the time was submitted.  Imagine being DuskyLW and seeing that Karl Jobst verified your Streets Agent 1:14.  As it stands, many low ranked players get no mention at all and their times are filtered out of the PR feed that many users watch.  That entire idea is separate from the discussion here, though.

---

It seems like my interpretation of what this poll is asking doesn't line up with what others seem to think.  Requiring a link to be present at the time of submission does not prove that the link leads to a valid proof submission.

Assuming this new rule was put in place *with* all the other rule changes needed to make it at least reasonably sound (changing all rules about monthly proof calls, backrolls, etc.):

Quote
1. It makes the proof mod's job significantly easier.

I disagree. This rule would increase the proof moderation workload.  If a time requiring proof is posted, the proof moderator will need to review the video thoroughly within days or even just hours.  Instead of being able to schedule a time to verify all videos on a convenient date near the end of the month, the proof moderator will need to be constantly ready to verify all submissions.  This might require the addition of more proof moderators.  Otherwise, proof moderators will be afraid to go more than a day or two without looking at the rankings for fear of public outcry over their slow actions and poor choices.  People have been very rude to proof moderators here in the past....

So at least be aware that a different process will be needed.

Quote
2. ...There will no longer be a burden on the procrastinating runners to remember to make a video three weeks after they submit a time.

This sounds more like a separate rule change -- removing all rules about one month, proof calls, backrolls, etc., and requiring proof upon submission.  The poll and OP here don't make it clear whether or not such a rule change is planned or wanted.  Reframing this link check rule as a way to help enforce a change in the policy would be way more appropriate than making a new rule first then going back and fixing the other rules the new one affected.

Adding a "must include video link" validation rule to help enforce such a change is probably reasonable, but still doesn't actually stop someone from intentionally breaking the rule.  It should only be seen as a helpful reminder to the person posting the time, rather than an actual validation that adequate proof was submitted.

Quote
4. It makes our leaderboards more legitimate and simpler at the same time.

Requiring a link to be present when submitting a time does not in any way stop someone from innocently accidentally claiming an untied WR from Perfect Dark XBLA or maliciously taking over the entire rankings. It seems like people have extremely strong reactions whenever something like that happens, even if it is just for a few hours.

Is the "legitimacy" issue here that proof moderators feel like they're handcuffed by the one month grace period and can't take down questionable times before that has passed?  A change to the proof policy that modifies the proof call rules could help with that.

flukey lukey

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Re: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2017, 07:10:54 pm »
same vote as in

☻ The only downside to this is that if i wanted to make a nice "premier" video i would have to hold off submitting the time until video is completed.

☻I think I would prefer make the time-frame for a video like 48 hours after claiming the time, and not immediately required.

☻I'm kind of with Goose in this regard.

☻ But if you're still uploading the raw as unlisted and linking it on the ranks, then people will be able to watch that version first.

☻ Premier vid without announcing *could* be better depending on circumstance.

☻It could also be nice if ppl know what's coming

☻ Also if it's a race to the time it's nice to be able to post it and then relax knowing it's registered on the ranks.

☻ Yeah, this whole thing feels like middle management just trying to be difficult in order to find something to do.


LAS

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Re: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2017, 01:31:42 am »
☻ Yeah, this whole thing feels like middle management just trying to be difficult in order to find something to do.
[/quote]

Yawn.

This is better explained in the council thread anywho.

Imagine being personally responsible for any delays and being the butt of every joke. "The human bottleneck is at it again!" "I swear he hasn't logged in in over 4 hours..." "My grandma could approve this time faster."

Mate since the week I was made Proof mod I've had worse tossed at me  :nesquik:  :v

If the runner proves his time, his run should be on the rankings the moment he submits.

While I do agree with this; the Kart community is more archaic in their post submissions yet the rankings are significantly accurate.

falzy211

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Re: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2017, 09:28:29 am »
Why not just list times with an asterisk saying they've been unverified?  Then you can verify it when you can

DYM

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Re: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2017, 10:17:33 am »
I like the idea of having a queue with a panel of trusted people (the council and maybe a few others) to verify them. With a team round the clock verification of 60+ pointers shouldn't take long, but it will probably be convenient for moderators to verify in small batches regardless. Hype records and untieds will be accepted almost instantly since it's more than likely someone on the panel will be aware of it within minutes.

Re: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2017, 04:06:26 pm »
Why not just list times with an asterisk saying they've been unverified?  Then you can verify it when you can

THIS is an excellent idea. Thoughts?

flukey lukey

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Re: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2017, 04:17:24 pm »
^ combine that without requiring a video instantly
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Grav

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Re: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2017, 06:01:02 pm »
sorry i misread your post earlier thingy, i think i would be fine with a panel or something like ace said. it would need to be a very large number of people to ensure near instant verification for any timezone though.

the main reason i suggested URL required to submit is because the change is by far the easiest to make, but i do like decentralizing the responsibility from the proof mod who is just 1 person. this system seems fine but we need people willing to do the necessary coding and will likely need a separate new page or whatever on the site dedicated to verification.

Re: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2017, 07:47:06 pm »
sorry i misread your post earlier thingy, i think i would be fine with a panel or something like ace said. it would need to be a very large number of people to ensure near instant verification for any timezone though.

the main reason i suggested URL required to submit is because the change is by far the easiest to make, but i do like decentralizing the responsibility from the proof mod who is just 1 person. this system seems fine but we need people willing to do the necessary coding and will likely need a separate new page or whatever on the site dedicated to verification.

We don't need to worry about instant verification if we use falzy211's suggestion to add an unverified* asterisk beside newly posted times, and allow the proof mod to still go through them as they normally do. Little change to the system so it isn't necessarily jarring but also small enough to impact everything positively. Panel isn't really necessary since proof mods aren't bogged down anyway, we visit the rankings every day if not every 2-3 days to catch up on times that have been posted. While the job is thankless, it's not difficult.  :v

EDIT: I know Grav wants to push me out of the spot but really Jon and I aren't hurting, lol.

Ignominious Sin

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Re: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2017, 10:05:05 am »
Im not sure but, weren't some of the videos in Kapap older than a month?
The elite as we know it is done. I'm emailing my people. Enjoy a dead forum.

Re: [POLL] Videos required to submit 60+ point times?
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2017, 10:20:48 pm »
Im not sure but, weren't some of the videos in Kapap older than a month?

Most were, as they were hoarded times. *MOST* of the videos were linked (and with date/time stamp shown on YouTube page).