Author Topic: What's the deal with Ace's videos being removed? Is he banned? (Read 1816 times)

flukey lukey · « **on:** March 03, 2018, 02:41:47 am »

wanted to watch ace's b1 00a 102 for some motivation today but was confronted with this:

how about some clarification from the proof / forum mods..

what's the consensus here

thx

flicker · « **Reply #1 on:** March 03, 2018, 04:00:18 am »

https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=21812.msg452093#msg452093

SimThreat · « **Reply #2 on:** March 03, 2018, 04:36:54 am »

The consensus in the council when this discussion happened previously is that times are subject to proof call again.

OHMSS · « **Reply #3 on:** March 03, 2018, 04:51:42 am »

And what's the purpose of such a proof call? I don't see any reason to re-verify the legitimacy of these records. So the WR page will have dead links until April 1st? Come on guys, you are better than that.

It's baffling what a salty kid Ace (still) is, but also it seems like the situation is handled poorly. I agree with Luke that this (unnecessarily) makes the-elite look very stupid, randomly temp-banning and re-proof calling their champion and showcasing dead links.

Hypnotoad · « **Reply #4 on:** March 03, 2018, 05:51:17 am »

Did he do this because that discord channel got removed?

sweetener · « **Reply #5 on:** March 03, 2018, 05:59:33 am »

videos are at http://dsxcorner.com/ace/ until he unprivates his youtube

if he doesn't end up doing this, theyll be re-uploaded to the elite youtube (in slightly lower quality)

SimThreat · « **Reply #6 on:** March 03, 2018, 06:25:35 am »

Quote from: ohmss on March 03, 2018, 04:51:42 am

And what's the purpose of such a proof call? I don't see any reason to re-verify the legitimacy of these records. So the WR page will have dead links until April 1st? Come on guys, you are better than that.

It's baffling what a salty kid Ace (still) is, but also it seems like the situation is handled poorly. I agree with Luke that this (unnecessarily) makes the-elite look very stupid, randomly temp-banning and re-proof calling their champion and showcasing dead links.

Can you please outline the way it should be handled in your opinion that is better.

Also times are only proven if they can be verified at any given moment. If you remove a video or make proof unavailable for viewing the time is no longer proven or verified.

flukey lukey · « **Reply #7 on:** March 03, 2018, 06:35:37 am »

lower quality than 116, 44, 404?

didn't know it was possible

OHMSS · « **Reply #8 on:** March 03, 2018, 07:51:16 am »

Quote from: Botched Movie Quotes on March 03, 2018, 06:25:35 am

Can you please outline the way it should be handled in your opinion that is better.

Re-upload his videos asap and link those re-uploads to the rankings instead of waiting for an unnecessary* proof call and go through the same shit once he does it again (asssuming that's your plan, I'm not sure, lack of transparency and ambiguous statements are part of the poor handling

).

* Not saying that your arguments are wrong, but I still think if you go for the hope-that-Ace-unprivates-his-vids-soon-way, a proof call is very much unnecessary because (afaik) YouTube doesn't have a mechanism for altering videos apart from some basic filters and cutting. Exchanging a video while maintaining the upload date or similar funny business is not possible.

sweetener · « **Reply #9 on:** March 03, 2018, 08:07:58 am »

unprivating would be ideal but never mind what i said before, we'll re-upload soon

OHMSS · « **Reply #10 on:** March 03, 2018, 08:19:50 am »

Great, thanks. His videos are of public interest and since he fails to provide them, someone else should.

Shadow · « **Reply #11 on:** March 03, 2018, 09:30:47 am »

Quote from: ohmss on March 03, 2018, 04:51:42 am

And what's the purpose of such a proof call? I don't see any reason to re-verify the legitimacy of these records. So the WR page will have dead links until April 1st? Come on guys, you are better than that.

I agree. Unless I misunderstand what the purpose is, it seems almost like having such a broad hammer for punishment, that you punish the entire elite while trying to punish one guy's antics.

Quote from: Botched Movie Quotes on March 03, 2018, 06:25:35 am

Also times are only proven if they can be verified at any given moment. If you remove a video or make proof unavailable for viewing the time is no longer proven or verified.

Vehemently disagree with this, as it implies the rankings can change day-to-day simply because of a video's availability. You re-proof-call and he doesn't reply, so what, the rankings are now held hostage and changed?

I can accept that it was verified in the past without needing to have it re-verified at any given moment. It certainly isn't ideal when those vids disappear (like Taka's) so I'm glad others have been so diligent to create backups of videos and host them on the-elite's channel.

SimThreat · « **Reply #12 on:** March 03, 2018, 09:41:47 am »

Spliced/faked videos are found after they have passed the initial proof call quite often. Henning's runs were caught years after they passed proof call. Video's need to remain available for scrutiny at all times so that future develops in tech/knowledge can reevaluate old vids.

It doesn't imply that rankings can change day-to-day as that is an administrative thing. We don't have to remove a time because the video has vanished, but the time is no longer verified.

I have been made aware that Ace's videos are backed up so a proof call is not required.

RWG · « **Reply #13 on:** March 03, 2018, 10:03:19 am »

Shadow - have you ever heard of Kryssstal? Ak1kan? WhiteAris?

All splicers who removed their videos after a few months to avoid detection. Proof needs to be up forever and always. Otherwise it's not proof.

deletedprofile.u · « **Reply #14 on:** March 03, 2018, 10:36:59 am »

Shadow · « **Reply #15 on:** March 03, 2018, 10:45:21 am »

Quote from: The man who trolled and lost everything on March 03, 2018, 10:03:19 am

Shadow - have you ever heard of Kryssstal? Ak1kan? WhiteAris?

Well, actually yes I have, but seems like an apples/oranges comparison here. I was specifically talking about a proof call. Does failure to comply with a (re)proof call not actually result in the removal if a time? Is this something new I'm unaware of? I am certainly aware of WHY you would want the videos up there in perpetuity, but I sure don't remember reading about anything like this in the proof policy.

Dropping into some "now unverified" category in some people's minds (since there isn't an official "verified" rankings)...okay. Seems a rather fine point, but okay.

deletedprofile.u · « **Reply #16 on:** March 03, 2018, 10:48:23 am »

Shadow:

Quote from: Botched Movie Quotes on March 03, 2018, 06:37:26 am

It was addressed previously in the council but not added to the proof policy. Previously the council was in agreement that if a player removes their videos they will be subject to another proof call.

People are still under the impression that as long as you pass the initial proof call your time is proven forever, which I very strongly disagree with. If you are able to pass a proof call and then remove your videos this will allow a giant window for people to upload spliced videos that may not be caught upon first viewing, and then swiftly removing their video afterwards so the run cannot be further scrutinised.

This should be a blanket rule including WR's and UWR's.

While not added to the proof call, common sense prevails here. With examples given above, including Henning and Monteith, this should be a no-brainer.

Once proven, always proven is not a thing. It makes for a fragile rankings.

Shadow · « **Reply #17 on:** March 03, 2018, 10:54:15 am »

I'm cool with that. The whole point with both OHMSS and myself revolved around a proof call. No proof call, no issue. 'nuff said (but note that Karl indicates that if there were no backed up videos, he would totally be proposing a proof call).

But I am curious what the practical implications of this are. "Okay, so now his times are unverified because of no video..." so...what does that mean, in practice?

deletedprofile.u · « **Reply #18 on:** March 03, 2018, 10:58:54 am »

Quote from: Shadow on March 03, 2018, 10:54:15 am

I'm cool with that. The whole point with both OHMSS and myself revolved around a proof call. No proof call, no issue. 'nuff said (but note that Karl indicates that if there were no backed up videos, he would totally be proposing a proof call).

But I am curious what the practical implications of this are. "Okay, so now his times are unverified because of no video..." so...what does that mean, in practice?

I suggested in council thread that re-proof called times should be fast-tracked and/or made into special cases: 7 days instead of the following month. This would reduce down time of already once-verified videos and make for a more fluid and practical re-implementation of videos. Or easier backrolling until the time is re-submitted (i.e. temper tantrums are over and done with and videos are re-uploaded

)

TheFlash · « **Reply #19 on:** March 03, 2018, 01:30:02 pm »

Quote from: Alec M. on March 03, 2018, 10:58:54 am

I suggested in council thread that re-proof called times should be fast-tracked and/or made into special cases: 7 days instead of the following month. This would reduce down time of already once-verified videos and make for a more fluid and practical re-implementation of videos. Or easier backrolling until the time is re-submitted (i.e. temper tantrums are over and done with and videos are re-uploaded )

Nah. Once the site has verified the proof, it should be on the site to keep the video around forever not on the individual contributor. As soon as my mailed tape was received, I should be good to go forever. Same with a YouTube video. The link gives the proof moderator access to the video and from there on it should be the site's responsibility to keep it around forever.

If you want to run a legit site for legit speedrunning with legit proof, don't let yourselves be at the whim of 500 individual contributors not jacking with you.

If you want a 7 day limit it should be 7 days for the site maintainers to fix the broken links. They owe that to the community and should be part of their responsibilities.

deletedprofile.u · « **Reply #20 on:** March 03, 2018, 02:41:54 pm »

Quote from: TheFlash on March 03, 2018, 01:30:02 pm

Nah. Once the site has verified the proof, it should be on the site to keep the video around forever not on the individual contributor. As soon as my mailed tape was received, I should be good to go forever. Same with a YouTube video. The link gives the proof moderator access to the video and from there on it should be the site's responsibility to keep it around forever.

If you want to run a legit site for legit speedrunning with legit proof, don't let yourselves be at the whim of 500 individual contributors not jacking with you.

If you want a 7 day limit it should be 7 days for the site maintainers to fix the broken links. They owe that to the community and should be part of their responsibilities.

Good perspective. Except, the site HAS been legit, the speedrunning is one of THE most legit in the community as a whole, and our proof standards are eons ahead of other communities. It's worked pretty well so far this way; putting the onus on the players to keep their proof up on the site, as per the rule that the runs stay there forever. It's in the makeup of run submission: we take the link from the individual's YouTube, so the onus of proof HAS to be on the player continually, because we don't currently have hosting available from The-Elite. Until THAT changes, the special-case proof calling seems the best course of action, imo.

Grav · « **Reply #21 on:** March 03, 2018, 03:00:13 pm »

im of the opinion that for as long as the proof video exists somewhere that the proof mod has access to (which subsequently means the public does by request at the worst), the player should never be backrolled for lack of video. if they are a shitter and delete their own videos (but they are all backed up elsewhere), they get punished in other ways like what we did for the forums and discord etc. freezing the timespage until the videos are restored is fine i guess, but i dont even think that is necessary. if the video backup system failed to download your vids, then of course those times should be proof called immediately.

if video hosting is indeed rolled out and we take the raw vid from someone as their video submission, the loss of that video due to reasons beyond the control of the runner should not backroll them either obviously. just like how clemens didnt get punished for twitch losing his VODs.

Silent Thunder · « **Reply #22 on:** March 03, 2018, 05:31:49 pm »

I'll just chime in here and say that trying to have videos hosted on the-elite.net is probably unfeasible. You're looking at increased hosting costs for the space they take up, and a huge increase in bandwidth for streaming them which may really increase hosting costs. This, of course, is with the caveat that I'm completely unaware of t-e.n's current hosting setup.

Someone will also have to implement the video player and do all of the programming associated with such a new feature. Then you have the increased risk of users uploading infected files, etc.

Honestly, you just plain can't track every video linked on the site. Probably the most realistic way forward is to have someone at the very least download and backup any WR video in case something like this happens in the future, so that it can then be re-upped on a different channel (which may already be happening, I don't know).

Grav · « **Reply #23 on:** March 03, 2018, 05:43:24 pm »

Quote

I'll just chime in here and say that trying to have videos hosted on the-elite.net is probably unfeasible

http://speeddemosarchive.com/gamelist/FullList.html

Date launched: April 1998

falzy211 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 03, 2018, 06:48:20 pm »

So you don't have any backup or repository of your proof videos?
What happens if ge videos get copyright flagged? Or removed for violent content? Or old videos start getting deleted like with twitch ?

You'd lose nearly ALL your proof
I do agree that proof videos should be maintained by the site once they're proven by the user

falzy211 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 03, 2018, 06:58:10 pm »

You dont my need to back up all video. But you should have on some cloud service a backup of all current world record videos. Because they're what people watch

To not have the videos of your best player and ban him for that looks really really bad

Silent Thunder · « **Reply #26 on:** March 03, 2018, 07:03:14 pm »

Quote from: Grav on March 03, 2018, 05:43:24 pm

Quote
I'll just chime in here and say that trying to have videos hosted on the-elite.net is probably unfeasible

http://speeddemosarchive.com/gamelist/FullList.html

Date launched: April 1998

Oh, SDA did it. Never mind, then. Sounds like your problems are solved. Good luck!

Grav · « **Reply #27 on:** March 03, 2018, 07:43:56 pm »

there will be many hurdles to overcome mate, im not denying that. i think its good to raise the points you did. im the first person to admit that the challenges down the road need to be carefully considered from the very beginning when assessing whether we should pursue a large project like this.

to say its not feasible is really not correct though, because obviously it has been done not only by SDA but by many others. it may be unlikely given how hard it is to get the qualified people motivated to code and etc, but the technical challenges are not inherently insurmountable... or even remotely so.

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Author Topic: **What's the deal with Ace's videos being removed? Is he banned?** (Read 1816 times)

Author Topic: What's the deal with Ace's videos being removed? Is he banned? (Read 1816 times)