Author Topic: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???  (Read 1501 times)

strat_man

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Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« on: April 11, 2018, 12:57:20 am »
Newbie here, coming back to Goldeneye as an adult.  I love watching speed runs and videos where users share their knowledge. So I wanted to post this to see what true speedrunners think.

I gather that TAS runs are not accepted for world records, and I agree with that logic.  But where it gets a little grey for me is when you try to define a "tool".  I have an example and want to see if a speed run using this technique would be accepted or not.  Basically this would work best on short levels with little RNG.  Imagine if you could use a TAS to determine exactly when each button needs to be pressed and then create a simple PC application that runs like Guitar Hero where all you are trying to do is hit the buttons at the precise moment.  Would this be considered cheating and not be accepted?  I have a problem if it is because really what is happening to get world records on those levels is the runner is trying to become as much like a robot as they can and just press the right buttons at the right time.  The Guitar Hero app, as I will call it, just helps them become that robot easier.  What's everyone think?

So I'm new to Elite, but my history with Goldeneye goes back to when I was 13 years old and Goldeneye first came out.  I now have 4 kids, a wife, and mortgage.  I am just now discovering how fun it would be to get good at Goldeneye again and how speed running could be very fun.  But I don't have hours to spend, or even a N64 console to use.  I have resorted to using the "Classic Boy" app on my Galaxy S7 to play Goldeneye (mostly while doing my business in the bathroom... don't tell me you don't too).  So instead of grinding, I'm trying to think of angles where I could get some satisfaction with the game, and I think working on new strategies is probably the best route for me.

Thanks in advance for listening to my crazy ideas.

eastwood

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2018, 01:09:40 am »
"All of our scores are achieved on unmodified Nintendo 64s without cheating devices or codes."

I think that should answer your question

strat_man

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2018, 01:18:41 am »
That doesn't answer the question at all.  The method in my example would involve the runner using a standard unmodified N64 and cartridge.  And it would be 100% their own fingers pressing the buttons.  They would simply be watching their PC screen running the Guitar Hero style app instead of the Televison to get cues of when to press the buttons.

This seems to be in a grey area.  So are runners banned from keeping a timer device running so he/she can see what their splits are at certain points in a run?  This example is much simpler, but along the same lines as my other example.

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2018, 01:22:08 am »
"All of our scores are achieved on unmodified Nintendo 64s without cheating devices or codes."

I think that should answer your question

From his description, your response makes no sense. That's like saying it's cheating to use a metronome when playing music.

From what I gather, the idea is to have an app on your phone or computer with a "chart" of input that you can "read" from. It'd be like having a reference page of strategy notes. I can almost guarantee everyone who has completed Train DLTK has used a "cheat sheet" that displays the chances of each random guard position in the later cars.

In any case, I think the game's wildly variable framerate and RNG would not allow this to be a thing. Also, how would you chart analog stick turns?

eastwood

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2018, 01:28:47 am »
"unmodified" o_O

just to make sure i've got this right, he's talking about using some external hardware/software to generate inputs for GE, that sounds modified to me
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 01:45:23 am by eastwood »

strat_man

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2018, 01:31:08 am »
I do agree that the varying framerate, RNG, and Analog stick input would all be things that would make it tough to develop a real-time button press timing tool.  But I have a gut feeling that there are a couple of levels it could help.  Perhaps it gets you to a certain point in a run before you switch over and start watching the television again.  Dam Agent, Archives, and Runway come to mind.

I only thought this as a viable option because of seeing just how damn good some people have gotten at Guitar Hero over the years and realizing that is very similar to trying to get the perfect frame runs in simple levels of Goldeneye.

MadmanFlechr

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2018, 01:39:32 am »
The issue is all three levels that you mentioned have random guard boosts that can affect the run, and thus throw off the accuracy of any predetermined inputs. In addition, Dam's gate is notorious for being somewhat random in how fast it opens.

A lot of skill in this game is adapting as you do a run, as you often don't know what boosts or patterns you are going to get.
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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2018, 01:47:42 am »
I only thought this as a viable option because of seeing just how damn good some people have gotten at Guitar Hero over the years and realizing that is very similar to trying to get the perfect frame runs in simple levels of Goldeneye.

I understand the comparison but I don't think that it applies in the same way. I think it would actually be a hindrance to the natural learning curve of Goldeneye to basically replace levels or sections of levels with readable input chart. Rhythm games have a different feel, the same thing happens every play. Eventually it gets to the point where you aren't even really reading the chart, you're just limited by the speed of your hands.

I've watched a fair bit of the highest level Guitar Hero and Rock Band players and you know for sure they have nothing on the likes of Hendrix, Page, Clapton, Satriani, etc. In Goldeneye you would have to ascend far beyond reading notes on a chart into a level of higher consciousness to get to the level of the best guitarists in the world. What you are suggesting is simply a crutch.

Wyst3r

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2018, 03:32:32 am »
I can pretty much guarantee that an application like this would be impossible to make work in practise. Even a TAS can't run the same level twice (even when removing RNG). They only work when combined with savestates or power-on. And of course there's tons of other issues like analog stick etc.

In the end, it'd be a huge amount of work with no benefit.

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2018, 03:58:33 am »
just to make sure i've got this right, he's talking about using some external hardware/software to generate inputs for GE, that sounds modified to me

That would be a modification, yes. But you are mistaken in that is not what is being suggested. The idea is an external application that the PLAYER reads inputs from, just like a moving track in Guitar Hero or Rock Band.

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2018, 05:41:21 am »
People already play using the level's music as a reference all the time. It would be an interesting idea, but replicating the analog stick movements in the exact way every time has some variance, as well as guard animation luck. In 2D low-luck games that would probably work better. If you can do that exactly the way you said it, go ahead, but people use other, more "mixed" ways to time things, which might include the music or not.
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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2018, 05:41:33 am »
Even if you had a perfect set of inputs on a level like S2 Agent, lag is pretty random and you would quickly desynch. When I did TASing, I would lose up to a tenth in lag just based on what frame I would start the level on, and the rest of gameplay is just as bad.

I can almost guarantee everyone who has completed Train DLTK has used a "cheat sheet" that displays the chances of each random guard position in the later cars.

I didn't. :v

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2018, 11:33:59 am »
Even if you had a perfect set of inputs on a level like S2 Agent, lag is pretty random and you would quickly desynch. When I did TASing, I would lose up to a tenth in lag just based on what frame I would start the level on, and the rest of gameplay is just as bad.

I was pretty pretty robotic on dam agent and would lose tenths for literally no reason for this reason. I don't think enough people appreciate this variable enough.
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strat_man

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2018, 12:47:42 pm »
Alright. So it seems that the concensus is that it would be too difficult to have a "guitar hero" type of assistant that just helps one get timed perfect button presses and complete any sort of level.  However, what I am also hearing is if such a tool was used, it would indeed count on the world record rankings as it abides by all the written rules.

So stay with me while we dive a little deeper...  suppose I now create a program in the future that uses the AI technology behind driverless cars that is watching the television through a camera and is adjusting the "guitar hero" key press event timing which now accounts for lag, boosts, RNG to provide an optimal press pattern (and possibly this helps account for analog stick usage variation).  Would that count for world rankings???

Even a step further... suppose such a "guitar hero" application with AI also has a system that has pneumatic plungers that press your fingers down on the buttons at the appropriate time.  Would that count for world rankings???  Still, no modifications have been made to the console or cart.

I know these are hypothetical and probably far out in the future, but perhaps something that speedrunning communities everywhere should address sooner rather than later.

SGT RAGEQUIT

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2018, 01:22:23 pm »
Alright. So it seems that the concensus is that it would be too difficult to have a "guitar hero" type of assistant that just helps one get timed perfect button presses and complete any sort of level.  However, what I am also hearing is if such a tool was used, it would indeed count on the world record rankings as it abides by all the written rules.

So stay with me while we dive a little deeper...  suppose I now create a program in the future that uses the AI technology behind driverless cars that is watching the television through a camera and is adjusting the "guitar hero" key press event timing which now accounts for lag, boosts, RNG to provide an optimal press pattern (and possibly this helps account for analog stick usage variation).  Would that count for world rankings???

Even a step further... suppose such a "guitar hero" application with AI also has a system that has pneumatic plungers that press your fingers down on the buttons at the appropriate time.  Would that count for world rankings???  Still, no modifications have been made to the console or cart.

I know these are hypothetical and probably far out in the future, but perhaps something that speedrunning communities everywhere should address sooner rather than later.

Pretty sure that if any of that were to come about, we'd adjust the rules then, no need to address every "what-if"

iriebutler

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2018, 03:40:32 pm »
Can we just delete troll threads instead of tirelessly amusing them?
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Alec McDonald

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2018, 04:56:41 pm »
1. The proof policy is a guideline, not The Bible.
2. We don't account for every "what if", as was said. The proof policy isn't a threat vulnerability & risk assessment, it is a general standard operating procedure which gives room for movement and subjectivity among upper staff and community suggestion.
3. To follow that insane trail of thought; no, it wouldn't count. Player's hands on buttons + unmodified controller + unmodified console + unmodified cart.

Use common sense. If you don't want to play, don't play. If you want to make computers play the game, be a TASer. You can't have both.
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strat_man

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2018, 06:41:22 pm »
what I'm trying to say is that TAS and human speedrun realms will be merging in the near future (could be any day with the right programmer). might be better to think about it now rather than be reactionary after someone has claimed a bunch of untied wotld records.

I imagine the launch of such a tool would be similar to a new strategy being found for a level and then the whole community racing to see who can achieve the best time using that new strategy first.

I don't want to bring up a ton of "what ifs", but this type of technology is literally right around the corner

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2018, 07:43:03 pm »
what I'm trying to say is that TAS and human speedrun realms will be merging in the near future (could be any day with the right programmer)

..but you're wrong, and you won't listen to all these people that know way more about the game than you, so i'm not sure what you're hoping to get from this

strat_man

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2018, 08:17:09 pm »
I guess what I would hope to gain from this thread is getting a sense of what would happen if I (or anyone else) who could develop such a method could expect when/if the results work and you start posting crazy world records. Would such a drastic development cause you to be banned from the records and the rules changed after you have broken records so that they are invalidated?

it might be worth the effort to develop, rather than spend thousands of hours grinding out runs to slowly climb the rankings

flicker

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2018, 08:23:09 pm »
Would such a drastic development cause you to be banned from the records and the rules changed after you have broken records so that they are invalidated?

It would not warrant a ban unless the elite council has previously decreed to ban said tool. It would be like the flashcart scenario, a time posted using such an external tool may be removed or may be allowed to stay on the rankings. If there ends up being a rampage of "broken records" then there would be absolutely no way any of those times would be allowed to stay on the rankings. The most likely situation would be exactly what happened to speedruntrainer's Dam 53. It would be discussed, the time potentially removed (very likely removed in this case), and usage of the tool banned.

it might be worth the effort to develop, rather than spend thousands of hours grinding out runs to slowly climb the rankings

Disagree. It's against the spirit of the speedruns and like I previously said, a hindrance to the normal learning curve of the game.

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2018, 08:24:15 pm »
It also has a 0% chance of actually working.

iriebutler

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2018, 10:28:26 pm »
But why has no one tried this??? :kappa:
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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2018, 11:29:36 pm »
Dude, I'm not even kidding.  I haven't read the thread at all beyond the OP, skimmed lightly, it seems like people are haters.  I LOVE this idea.  It sounds so amazing.  Yes, MANY levels will not work due to RNG & lag variances, but I think this could definitely work for something like Frigate Agent, possibly Runway Agent, maybe something like Facility Agent?  The thing is, even if you "played the song/run" perfectly, there still might be variance which messes you up.

Anyways it is a VERY interesting thought experiment and I support your creative mind in this community.
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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2018, 12:50:31 am »
Of course the shitpost king supports this idiot :v

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2018, 12:57:00 am »
I think Goose supports the idea behind it as a brainstorming topic. I could of course be wrong.

If it were used and brought to the rankings, it would be a TAS and wouldn't be able to stay posted.

You can't bring TAS and speedrunning together, it's one or the other  :rollin: It's you and the controller(s) OR there is a tool involved. Simple as that.

It IS an interesting idea, but like has been said, lag variance even on levels like frigate agent would take literal TASing to complete with such a tool, and again, would therefore be discouraged and removed form the official rankings.

If you choose to pursue it, have all the fun you want, but you won't wash down the rankings.  :v :pimp:
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eastwood

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2018, 01:12:34 am »
It also has a 0% chance of actually working.

/thread tbh

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2018, 02:25:59 pm »
The amount of uninformed and/or boring people in this thread is mind-blowingly high.

I thought of a similar idea a couple of months ago - that was training an AI with inputs from my own gameplay, seeing how well it would perform on simple levels and using the results to fine-tune the input again to improve. Unlike the people who are constantly blathering "0% chance of working, close this troll thread!", I think it would be an interesting project, regardless of the results. Projects like this already exist for some games (check out TensorKart). You can use the controller input display firmware that already exists to read the controller inputs, so I imagine getting the training data wouldn't be that difficult. I don't think writing input data would be difficult either.

Of course, your original idea is different and I was just posting general thoughts since you mentioned AI (I disagree with AI being "around the corner", but eventually yes).

About your actual idea: I think it's fine but it certainly seems more complicated than you would think, especially for levels with a lot of action such as Facility or Train. My advice is to develop tools, see how it goes for simple levels and then reconsider your question of whether it would be allowed. But go for it. It sounds amazing.

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2018, 08:26:31 pm »
Why are people in this thread trying to stifle mere THOUGHT? What are you afraid of?  You've been brainwashed by liberals and leftists into believing that *thought* alone is a bad thing.  You probably would be willing to roll over and let the state police "thought crimes" if it made you feel a little bit safer.  Very, VERY strange.
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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2018, 10:12:16 pm »
best Ace post in over 1 year?  probably
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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2018, 12:46:50 am »
Cock
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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2018, 03:17:53 pm »
this thread gave me cancer then it was cured by the end THANK GOD. This is my first post BTW HAYYY. Also would it be legal to spend years training pigeons using pavlovian conditioning(instead of practicing the run obviously) to tab buttons on a guitar hero remote hooked up to a vibrator in my butt, as i play the game? i don't think it'll help me but it MIGHT feel good.

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Re: Guitar Hero meets Goldeneye... why has no one tried this???
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2018, 08:38:48 am »
Why are people in this thread trying to stifle mere THOUGHT? What are you afraid of?  You've been brainwashed by liberals and leftists into believing that *thought* alone is a bad thing.  You probably would be willing to roll over and let the state police "thought crimes" if it made you feel a little bit safer.  Very, VERY strange.
Agreed. Liberal snowflakes nowadays ugh.
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