2 controller question/suggestion

[laclica]

i would like to ask if anyone has wired a single controller to both player 1 and player 2 port's on the console to get the advantage of 2 controller while only having to use/hold one? i am asking this because as i understand how the N64 detect's controller input it should theoretically be possible to do that while only sacrificing an old broken controller witch most people have at this point. you would only need to cut the wires off of the old broken controller and solder/attach them to a currently functioning controller and get the advantage of the full speed the 2.x style gives you without having to invest long term in ducktape stock's.

i am verry sorry if this has allready been asked/tried/banned. i have created an account here just to ask/suggest this one thing. i may not be a runner but i love helping communities research way's to improve.

[SGT RAGEQUIT]

2 things -
The general use of 2.x is that you're going to be switching between up-left and up-right quite a bit on the second controller's stick, while turning and aiming with the first. How would you get that separation using one controller as suggested?

Also, almost all of us favor a gamecube-style replacement stick for our 2nd controller that doesn't require a lot of force to hold a direction, and doesn't need tape/rubber bands.

[laclica]

i see. i was suggesting it more for the speed increase you get from pointing both controller's in the same direction from standstill. bit that makes sens that it would be used for strafing also. witch would be either impossible or require modding of the controller to add a second stick on it to use. as for the tape i was referring to the 2 controller tapped together i saw on a stream yesterday. dont remember who did that tho.

[SGT RAGEQUIT]

Ah, you're misunderstanding how speed works with 2.x
It doesn't come from holding both sticks "the same direction" as you say (you're only strafing with the right controller's stick)
The advantage comes from being able to start out in full speed, because with the second controller you can start building speed in the opening cutscenes on a level, rather than when you gain control of bond.

On some 2.x levels like streets and caverns agent where you play the entire level without changing strafe, we set our stick on our second controller to automatically hold that strafe direction (by holding the right direction and pressing L+R+Start). Then you can just put the second controller down and have the benefit of 2.x while only having to hold one.

[laclica]

ah ok. that makes a lot of sens. so to achive that would require modding in a second controll stick onto a single controller. witch i dont think would be considered ok just like turbo controller's. altho it could be possible to just get the controll stick part of a second controller and mcguyver it onto your main controller in some place where it would make sens. but that would require a lot of engineering.

[Wyst3r]

You’d probably want to somehow map the 2nd controller analog stick to the C buttons, so that for example C-up gives a full analog response in the up direction. No clue how to accomplish that or if it would be allowed at all though.

[TheFlash]

as i understand how the N64 detect's controller input it should theoretically be possible to do that

Really? I would have guessed this would not work. It seems like the button status polling signals from both ports would likely interfere with each other.  Same for the responses.  Does the timing somehow work out so that neither side gets confused?

I always thought any form of dual controller would at the very least require two separate controller chips.  You should be able to physically remove one or both of them from the original PCB and reroute buttons as you wish, though.  Fitting two of those full PCBs into one standard controller housing is probably too tight.

[MadmanFlechr]

"Severe controller modding to combine separate 2.X controller inputs into a single controller"

Listed under Cheating on the proof policy page, so if I'm not mistaken, this would not be allowed.

[deletedprofile.u]

"Severe controller modding to combine separate 2.X controller inputs into a single controller"

Listed under Cheating on the proof policy page, so if I'm not mistaken, this would not be allowed.

I like this guy. He's a stickler for details.     

[MadmanFlechr]

He's a stickler for details.

Got me nailed down to a 't' tbh   

[laclica]

as i understand how the N64 detect's controller input it should theoretically be possible to do that

Really? I would have guessed this would not work. It seems like the button status polling signals from both ports would likely interfere with each other.

in the case of the N64 the controller's are polled at a different interupt but still much faster than once a frame. what happen's is that it will allway's do the same. send a pulse into port 1 and see what is reported, send a pulse in poer 2 and see what is reported, " port 3, " port 4. calculate the next frame with those input, repeat. that mean that a controller in both port would work without interference since if the console is pulsing port 1 and recieve something in port 2 the information is discarted untill it is port 2's turn.

but the whole point is moot if it is cheating as MadmanFlechr. stated. i was just intrigued in the possibility ^_^.
edited i had the wrong name. oups

[TheFlash]

a controller in both port would work without interference since if the console is pulsing port 1 and recieve something in port 2 the information is discarted untill it is port 2's turn.

Nice! I was mainly thinking that port 2 might start listening while the controller was talking to port 1 and get a partial signal intended for port 1 and become confused.

so that for example C-up gives a full analog response in the up direction. No clue how to accomplish that

This would require some special attention.  Somewhat simplified explanation:

The controller chip sends the X/Y coordinates in part of a serial signal to the console as numbers from -127 to 128.  A standard controller will only send numbers within a smaller range though, something like -80 to 80.

So you would need to convince the controller chip to send those minimum/maximum values.

The controller chip calculates those values by starting at (0, 0) when the controller is powered up and tracking +1 and -1 signals from the stick as it moves.  The +1 and -1 signals are in the form of two square waves that trigger an interrupt in the controller chip.

If you wanted a button to set the analog stick value immediately to 128 (or 80?), you'd need to send 128 signals to the controller chip as fast as it can accept them.  Then when the button is released, you'd have to send 128 signals in the opposite direction to reset the stick value to 0.

You'd probably need to install some additional bits inside the controller to accomplish this.

[Wyst3r]

I see, thanks for the explanation.

[TheFlash]

technically what the I/O chip does to determin analog signal is it has 2 connection. one for y one for X. and it check's the resistance for those 2 connection's. neutral is 50% resistance on both. that is taken as the 0 in analog direction. 100% is 128 and 0% is -128. all the chip does is check resistence on those 2 connections. so getting a max speed in any direction only requires that you ajust resistance with a boutton press. so you could for example make it so that C-up is disconnected from it's circuit and instead act as a bypass of the analog Y circuit. pressing it would complete the circuit with no resistance giving you a no resistance signal and thus giving you a 100% signal witch would translate to whatever is the max analog foward speed of the N64 (most probably 128 with a deadzone to not go too fast)

i know it seem's complicated explained like that but in practice this could be acomplished verry esealy and fast. you would only need 2 wires, a soldering kit and a knife. you would scratch off the traces on the board that makes the complete C-up go and gives C-up (not where the boutton presses but the traces leading to it). leave some metal on the side of the boutton connector terminator exposed. and solder the 2 Y connections to the 2 exposed and scratched C boutton traces. and that would be it. you have now a controller that has no C-up but has a max foward boutton instead

WARNING TO ALL USERS THIS POST IS WRONG DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS

The N64 "analog" stick uses an optical encoder and disc to generate 2 square waves for X and 2 square waves for Y offset by 1/4 to tell the controller chip that the stick is moving.

There is no potentiometer and no resistance measurement.

DO NOT ATTEMPT YOU WILL RUIN YOUR CONTROLLER.

Here is a video I made demonstrating the actual signals sent from the analog stick:

DO NOT ATTEMPT THE MODIFICATION SUGGESTED IN THIS POST

[laclica]

i have removed my previous post untill i redo testing on the N64 controller. thx to Theflash to point out that the N64 controller analog stick is dofferent than other stick's i have tested in the past. the analog stick was something that by itselph i had not tested on the N64 controller. i can admit when i am worng. even more so when it is a mistake like that. thank you.

edit: by the way nice video.

[TheFlash]

the N64 controller analog stick is dofferent than other stick's i have tested in the past

Indeed, most other well-known sticks actually do use a potentiometer / measure resistance.  In fact, you can put one of those sticks into an N64 controller, but you will need to translate that resistance measurement to individual +1/-1 waves with an additional chip.