Author Topic: The Steven Zwartjes Saga Continues - Possible Aztec Strat Vid Coming Soon?!?  (Read 20258 times)

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Hello mateys,

About three weeks ago, I made a thread on the Mario Kart 64 forum, hoping to look into the case of Steven Zwartjes for a potential video, whom I had always known as someone to have claimed many "insane" WRs in Mario Kart 64, Goldeneye, and other N64 games.  To me, this was similar to Todd Rogers, so I titled the thread "Steven Zwartjes: The Todd Rogers of N64?"

SZ's two most well known claims were an Aztec Agent 1:31 from early 2002 (before the glass strat was even invented) and Luigi's Raceway 3lap Non-SC 1'58'14 from 2003... a time which would still be 5th place today, but was backrolled earlier this year.  Neither claim has video proof, and SZ never really explained the strategies he used for either record... if he did, they were very vague.  The glass strat for example, SZ never gave an explanation anyone else could get to work.  Compare this to Boss, who when he joined with news of the glass strat, everyone in the community got it to work that day.

http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1526616780/0

The result was very unexpected.  Many SZ defenders came out to share their reasons why they felt as though SZ was 100% legitimate.  And they have some "reasonable" points you could say.  They saw him play back in the day, none of his claims turned out to be provably impossible, they competed against him in 1994 and 1996 Nintendoseries Championships or Street Fighter II tournaments.  They knew he was this good.

Of course, as we've learned over time, "being good" doesn't preclude you from cheating or making false claims, so while I don't doubt SZ's skill as an N64 gamer, I still think it's fair to doubt his claims of Aztec Agent 1:31 and LR 1'58'14, among possibly others.

They also claimed that SZ actually did send out many VHS tapes of his proof, one of which surfaced via Axel Z via Greg Ihnateknko a couple years ago: https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=21488.msg440576#msg440576  But many other alleged tapes, of various games, sent to people like Iacopo Sorce of N64HS or other Nintendo magazines have not surfaced, or may not have been sent out in the first place.

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So what?

While back in 2002-03, guys like Ngamer & co ineffectively pestered SZ for proof with minimal success, we may finally be on the verge of a breakthrough.  In an attempt to "prove" himself before I go about labeling SZ "the Todd Rogers of N64" in a Youtube video for millions to see, SZ & his pals have begun to dig up any circumstantial evidence surrounding his claims...

SZ found his old Mario Kart 64 cartridge and posted a video of "scrolling proof" through his times: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE-eUx-CEKM

Here are his WR claims from MK64 to compare: https://mkwrs.com/mk64/profile.php?player=Zwartjes

The shocking & surreal thing to me was that the times are "what they should be" in a sense.  He has 1'58'14 as his 3lap on LR, followed by his 1'58'65, which was his previous (and proven) record.  However, if you were to look at most other top players' LR times saved on their carts, their top 5 times would all be very close together, as it's a level you slowly grind down, hundredth by hundredth.  Obviously this isn't definitive proof legitimizing his claim, not disproving it.  But it's more than we got from him in 15+ years.  It is at least some circumstantial evidence that his 1'58'14 claim is on his cartridge.

Now here's where it gets insane...

SZ's pals, KVD, Stefan Kok & Patrick Wessels have been in touch with him, and they seem to be trying to get SZ a Goldeneye setup so he can demonstrate his "glass strategy" he used back in 2002 to get 1:31.  This would be absolutely huge for Goldeneye, as, as his defenders would believe, this has potential to reveal a "new strategy" that has been overlooked for all these years.  Or alternatively, it has the possibility to almost debunk SZ's claim entirely, if he demonstrates something that definitely doesn't work as per our TAS knowledge.

SZ's original GE cart, with the alleged 1:31 saved on the best time, was given to SZ's brother, who has a son, who plays the game.  So there is a chance the 1:31 file has been deleted.  Also, this means SZ doesn't currently have a cart, but this is trying to be sorted through his pals right now.

Anyways, I just thought I'd make this thread to give the-elite an ongoing update version of events when it comes to SZ.  Feel free to post any memories, claims, or anything that comes to mind about the SZ case... any other games he's played, any time you've heard his name come up, literally anything.  I'd like to do a fair & unbiased video about this case at some point, as it really might be the most interesting story in all of N64 competition, so any information or leads on anything help immensely.

Thank you for reading, and hopefully we get to see something cool, really soon.

Stay true,
R. White "Goose"
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Shadow

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Fascinating. I have no proof but Zwartjes was always one of the few that I felt entirely trustworthy back in the day, and who genuinely had insane skill. I'd be curious to see what turns up but it's been quite a long while.

Saltkillzsnails

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I love this please keep us up to date Goose, looking forward to another video

Smit

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Yeah i've been in touch with Karel and Wessels a little bit. Hopefully he will be able to stream his attempts life.

I confirmed with Henrik over and over again that the strat Zwartjes suggests is not possible.

Maybe "the human factor" will come to play a big role in this :P

Whiteted

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I'm pleased to see this has turned into less of a witch hunt :v

Is there any public description of 'the Zwartjes strat'?

mw

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I'm pleased to see this has turned into less of a witch hunt :v

Is there any public description of 'the Zwartjes strat'?

http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1117846347/0#0
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Illu

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cool cool

eastwood

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This is really fascinating stuff! To think that this saga could culminate in a fucking live-stream of SZ demonstrating his 1-guard lure glass strat? Insane!

Wyst3r

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I confirmed with Henrik over and over again that the strat Zwartjes suggests is not possible.

Just to clarify, it's impossible according to our current understanding of how glass openings work. If there was a 1-guard strat, then that would essentially be a completely unrelated trick with it's own separate theory. The main argument against Zwartjes' claim apart from the above would be probability. He supposedly got this to work at least 3 times (and probably more since I doubt he would've WR'd on all his successful attempts?), which puts alot of constraints on how unlikely the strat can really be. I've spent alot of time these last 15 years trying this strat, and I did so again this week after reading this story, and despite the help of savestates, which allows for far more attempts per hour than console, I've still never seen anything that would indicate this being possible. So either SZ failed to mention some crucial detail or the odds are astronomically low.

Saltkillzsnails

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Main issue would be him trying to demonstrate on the live stream and just saying oh dang, see I said it was 1 in 1,000 or 10,000 or whatever the number was. Yet he duplicated it on multiple instances with a specific strategy. If he tries an exact strat and fails over and over he will still have a portion who believe him and just say it was due to rust/bad luck

Wuldntuliktono

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I was watching something about either todd rodgers or silly bitchell and i remember some1 showing like leaderboards from twin galaxies and sure as shit stevens name was ranked on a few... intresting!

Shadow

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Steven was ranked on everything back in the day. And he was insanely good at it all, and he definitely provided proof for some of his really good stuff so that just made everything else seem believable. I doubted some other players' claims but never found reason to doubt his.

Wuldntuliktono

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Seems really odd then that hed lie about a time on a tiny site at the time for goldeneye. What even was the guard/guards he claimed to lure? Was it like 1 still in the black room?

wheatrich

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So, how can none of those guards in the black room open that door?  Guards reset vision and not see you even if you're not that far away in other levels of the game.

There's one spot in that level I'm very curious about but never cared to test it.

Wuldntuliktono

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Id guess because if there in that room there gonna see you duck behind where the computer is to hide so theyd never really run to the glass theyd run to you but I could be wrong.

flicker

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Id guess because if there in that room there gonna see you duck behind where the computer is to hide so theyd never really run to the glass theyd run to you but I could be wrong.

that plus the fact that a guard has to not see bond for 10 seconds otherwise the guard updates his tracking of bond to his current position and will go looking for him after briefly standing around

basically from zwartjes' attitude i just infer that he was fed up with everyone running past guards on every level and complaining about how there is no skill involved because of a higher luck requirement, so to spite everyone he came up with a strat he thought would be plausible under the "insane lucky" conditions, but since we have people who look at the games code, its being proved impossible

another thing wrong with what he says is that it sounds like he is only luring a single guard to the glass which also has 0 chance to open it (unless bond is invisible at the glass seen here)

i dont know though, he doesnt explain it very clearly at all, which is why it would be best to have some sort of video of the strat. although at the same time i feel like there are very similar stats that have been used that are somewhat close to what he described that he could just claim it was one of those... examples would be the mainframe stuck or bozon's fast glass
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 09:28:00 pm by flicker »

stefankok

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(like some 1080 times he claimed are being proved impossible decimals a la Todd Rogers' Dragster)

Would like some more explanation to this. Most of his 1080 listed times on N64HS are quite a bit far off from being first (with the exception of Mountain Village which is second). I couldn't find anything on google about him cheating there.

flicker

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(like some 1080 times he claimed are being proved impossible decimals a la Todd Rogers' Dragster)

Would like some more explanation to this. Most of his 1080 listed times on N64HS are quite a bit far off from being first (with the exception of Mountain Village which is second). I couldn't find anything on google about him cheating there.

my bad, got confused with andrew kent's fake times https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=22326.msg454325#msg454325

stefankok

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my bad, got confused with andrew kent's fake times https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=22326.msg454325#msg454325

No worries. That's funny about Andrew Kent, he was found out to be cheating the exact same way in SMK lol.

Wyst3r

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i dont know though, he doesnt explain it very clearly at all, which is why it would be best to have some sort of video of the strat. although at the same time i feel like there are very similar stats that have been used that are somewhat close to what he described that he could just claim it was one of those... examples would be the mainframe stuck or bozon's fast glass

Actually the strat(s) he described are quite clear and leave very little room for interpretation. They are definitely not consistent with any modern strats. The problem is that he has described multiple different strats:

https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?action=profile;u=106

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Zwartjes's strat was even weirder:

same first two rooms, kill everyone in black room.  lean up against the glass facing the mainframe.  position yourself on the glass in between two sheets of glass (the two lines running up and down that you can clearly see).  use the line on the right when you enter the room.  now, shoot to activate the guard behind the mainframe while turning to face the glass. instantly leave and run to the console place.  this should activate the guard to run up the line going up and down on the glass. he should also be facing it.  now pop out and shoot a bunch of bullets above his head.  since he's in one of two (supposed) places that he can open the window, he we'll have been activated to do so in craziness.  That's his supposed strat.  He told it to me.

Compared with:

Quote
You are luring the wrong guy  Wink
u have to lure the one that is standing next to the gate that is opening and closing not the one in the back.
when u lure him closing the gate right after that he should be slow and open it some later.
at that time u are already standing next to the glass that has to open. SHoot some bullets now and hide in the place behind the wall near the mainframe.
Now he has to open the door for you.
chances are so small he is doing that because sometimes he even comes running straight to you
but it is possible after u have tried 10 hours u know it is

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All guys gone except the one behind the mainframe door.strafe to him.show yourself and by doing this let the door rise.he should be slow and open it some later again.back up and get in the place next to the glassdoor.shoot a few bullets on the door where guy comes out. (dont hit him  Wink)
the bullets make an indication for the computer to the place u have been the last (while shooting).
the place u shoot last is the place where the enemy will try to find u IF he did not have eye contact with u and follows the noise.

(I made loads of advantage of this in the early LTK days  Smiley like runway the guys keep appearing if u kill them, the trick is to lure them with a shot and then hide.
the guard will walk to the place u took your shot.of course u where shooting near a wall so the guy stands there stupidly with his face towards the wall  Grin) Do this with all guards and u have a safe walk to the plane Smiley)

Anyways back to Aztec:
the moment the door is about to go down (this is about right after u took your shot) hide quickly in the spot near the mainframe. the guard walks to the glassdoor and should open it immediately.
this is where it gets fucked up because there is only guard who is willing to do it instead of the 3 guards in the strat u guys all use thus chances are absurdly low for it to happen.but if u have patience it will happen.

So the first one describes him luring the guard by shooting through the closed mainframe, and then shooting above his head when he gets to the glass. In the second case he shows himself to the guard, and the guard opens the glass immediately when he gets there without any shooting shenanigans.

Whiteted

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There seems no reason why he can't be describing different variants of his 1 guard strategy, and they all appear to have a common thread to me. Rather than having a guard circling another deciding to go through the glass he gets a single guard close to the glass and claims to somehow nudge them a little further in.

I have some ideas on this nudge:
  • What I'd term 'the step'. After you lure a guard and they give up moving to your new position they will often perform a little step in a seemingly random direction, after about 3 seconds. I don't know if this is known about, and I don't understand it very well yet but I'm looking into it. I can only think that it is a mechanic precisely to attempt to prevent guards circling around another when they are trying to get to the same spot. I've found you can prevent it with some well timed loading / unloading, but perhaps Steven Zwartjes' strat waited for this random step to head close to directly into the crack. You could even unload the guard on approach to ensure he arrives precisely on the spot Bond was at. This is the purpose of looking at the brown wall in the modern RTA strat if I'm not mistaken?  :thinking: In fact now that I think about it I'm pretty sure you can turn this 'step' into a 'teleport the instant you look at the guard' with some more loading / unloading stuff, which does sound quite reasonable in this situation.
  • Trev-like turns. Although I think it is a lot more common when guards are sprinting (i.e. trev on cradle) I'm pretty sure loaded guards can overshoot their spot that they are aiming for, and then circle about for another go. Much like the circling of one guard around another, this could hypothetically carry them through the glass. Perhaps we could try artificially increasing the lag as the guard approaches the spot?
  • Animation magic. Shooting close to a guard can trigger quite a few different animations, and perhaps one of these also pushes the guard further into the glass? SZ did mention researching the different reactions that guard can make in detail or words to that effect

My GE time is taken up working on my own strategy atm but I think I'll be looking at Aztec next, since the glass strats are what got me interested in GE strats in the first place.

Finally, I think that while you are entertaining the idea that SZ is telling the truth (which you should :p ), you should assume that 1 in a 1000 is probably an exaggeration, though no doubt it is unlikely. Also it's worth saying that I am not saying you should believe this person without proof or anything like that, but it seems to me that people are dismissing a potential nudge in the correct strat direction.

Wyst3r

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Also it's worth saying that I am not saying you should believe this person without proof or anything like that, but it seems to me that people are dismissing a potential nudge in the correct strat direction.

If poeple are dismissive it's probably because we've been through all of this before. First in 2002 when the times were posted, then again in 2005 when Steven made his posts on MK64 forums, and now again in 2018. Every time poeple like myself go back and test it again, just to be sure, only to be disappointed when it turns out not to work.

Also worth mentioning is all the tenths/hundreds of thousands of regular strat attempts, how many of those were failed runs where only 1 guard was lured? Shouldn't we have had at least one "accidental" 1-guard opening by now, if it was possible? I mean we've had several accidental OoB's, and the Depot warp etc... which were all far more unlikely.

Whiteted

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Yeah I do appreciate it's new and interesting to me and not so much to more established people here.

And that is a good argument but I think there are valid reasons why not: getting the guard precisely to the center of the glass already requires 'strange' behaviour to unload them, though it has probably been done a lot for RTA recently. And if there is unload, load, unload magic to it then that certain is very unnatural. Saying anything more requires knowing the strat :(

Shadow

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One thing I will say is that I'm rather disappointed that there continues to be "witch hunts" every few months, despite some of them likely legitimately needing to happen. In this particular scenario, say Steven never bothers to provide proof. There will always be people wanting to remove all his times in addition to this time, and yet I wouldn't say most of his times are in dispute.

The historicity of the rankings is slowly but surely eroding. For better or worse, I almost feel like a new rankings should have been started rather than continue to question ancient players and times. So far it shows no sign of stopping.

stefankok

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I just posted this on the MK64 topic, but i'll post this here as well. I chatted with Steven today on facebook while he was at the Hairdresser waiting for his turn (lol). He gave some detail about his Aztec strategy. I did my best to translate it as accurately as i could.

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Stefan: Because the Elite are able to lure a guard to the glass but they could never make him open it.
Steven: That's completely understandable. I had the same problem of him often standing at the right place but never opening the glass door.
Steven: It's because the guard needs an extra task.
Steven: Not only the task to walk to the glass door. That is fairly consistent with the right execution.
Steven: He must want to reach the place behind the glass door.
Steven: If he wants to do that, then he is obligated to open it.
Steven: He can indeed do that, if you are using the same clever trick like they are using at the Elite by putting an extra guard there. Then he is obligated to stand in a different place than the guard standing next to him. Sometimes this fails when the spot next to that guard can be in front of the glass instead of behind it.
Steven: That's why you also now have failed runs in which the right execution was used by 2 guards.
Steven: With 1 guard it becomes more complex, because he has to give that task to himself.
Stefan: So the question is what you did to give that one guard the task to open the door.
Steven: He can make a programmed sidestep before he's getting ready to start shooting or make a sprint from the lured spot from point a to point b.
Steven: That point b must be behind the glass door. This is dependent on the angle on which the guard reaches point a.
Steven: That's why the hit rate is so low.
Steven: If i did not succeed and he is looking at the glass, then i gave the guard a shot above his head so that you have a chance on the execution from his new task again.
Stefan: Like i said earlier, this will become the most clear to people when you demonstrate the strat with the glass door opening on video.
Steven: Certainly.   :smiley:

He also was working out an alternative strategy for Aztec back then because the one guard strategy hit rate is so low.

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Steven: Back then i also worked on a second strat on Aztec because the first one seemed to have such a low hit rate. That one has never seen the light of day.    :grinning:
Steven: They don't use it now either.
Stefan: lol would like to hear that one too.
Steven: You want to lure as fast as possible to gain time. Preferably with as many guards as possible.
Steven: You can skip the walking guards in the beginning stage. There are 5 of them. 3 from the first part and 2 in the second part.
Steven: They have to go after you to stage 3 where the glass door is.
Steven: If you kill all the guards in stage 3 and the sliding door is down again, then you can place some lure shots at the glass door aiming at the sliding door. Your position is then fixed for the guards who are coming from behind.
Steven: Then you have to hide where the dude stands next to the second mainframe.
Steven: Sometimes the guards that come from behind reach stage 3 quickly because they occasionally warp to it.
Steven: The warping from guards from point a to point b only happens when they're out of sight from Bond, but that can save a lot of time.
Steven: They then go to your fixed position at the glass door and can open it.
Stefan: Interesting, ever got it to work?
Steven: Only slow procedures. I haven't put more time into it to work that out. I did think about creating another working plan for some time back then.

Another few interesting things to note:
-He will visit his brother this Sunday and pick up his GE cartridge. He will show off the end screen best time of Aztec Agent and would probably be willing to show off any other levels as well (assuming that his brother's son didn't delete his profile)
- His 1:31 Agent was an ok time with his strategy according to him, still definitely had room for improvement. However i think he was pretty much done with the level back then after putting so many hours into it.

I will post some more info about his Aztec strat on here in the future if i know more. Also i tried to type B arber(no space in between) but it keeps correcting it to Bearder for some reason when i post it. That's very weird.
-Stefan Kok (mk64 karter)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 06:08:37 pm by stefankok »

Whiteted

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That's really interesting :grinning: I hope he knew you were going to publish it lol
The second strat has been considered before though I think.

stefankok

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^ I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have a problem with it. He's going to make a video about it soon after all.

Also, he said that his strat was always the same but sometimes described it a bit differently by luring the guard with shooting or luring him by showing yourself and then hiding. They're both an option.

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His explanation is actually insane (in the right ways) and makes me hopeful this can work.  I'd like to see Henrik chime in, which I'm sure he'll do soon, but it "sounds" plausible at least.  I'm very keen for the next steps.

Btw: re "B.arber" and whatnot... as the power of the elite admin team began to wane, they tried to do a bunch of bullshit that would annoy the "true" eliters... too many things to mention, but they changed a few words such as:

B.arber => Bearder
P.robert => that jerk
s.orcery => tomfoolery

I'm sure someone could change it back, but the "keys" to the various administration tools are pretty scattered among various semi-inactive people who can't be arsed with simple tasks.  A shame they've leave the elite in such a state... it's actually quite incredible how much we've come despite guys like Ngamer (B.arber), Come, etc, trying to sabotage the place before they were finally exiled for good.
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Wyst3r

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I guess Steven kinda confirmed what most of us had assumed/theorized, that one of the random animation after reaching the glass is what would trigger a glass opening. While this makes intuitive sense, there still no evidence of it actually working. And again, it is something that has been tested extensively in the past.

The thing he talks about sidestepping and angles sounds similar to the crouch strat, where the left guard runs in a 90 degree angle relative to Bond. I guess sidesteps are 90 degrees from where the guard is facing. Never seen that result in them opening a door though, though I'm also not sure if I've actually seen them do this while at the glass (I know that there are situations where the game doesn't allow certain animations. e.g. being too close or being at bad angle etc...). Maybe these animations could be forced, similar to my "left guard always runs" romhack.

Edit: I tried forcing the sidestep/sidehop/running sideways animations and as I suspected, the game checks for obstacles (such as the glass door) and will always chose a direction that leads away from it. So as long as the guard is close enough to the glass, he won't step/hop/run towards it.

As for the alternative strategy:

I and probably others have tested a very similar strategy in the past, where you lure out the first 2 guards in the black room, then run into the black room, close the door behind you and run to the glass. The problem with this is that it's too slow (and it's very hard to make it to the glass in time). The strat Steven describes (using the 5 guards before that) would've been even slower.

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Steven: If you kill all the guards in stage 3 and the sliding door is down again, then you can place some lure shots at the glass door aiming at the sliding door. Your position is then fixed for the guards who are coming from behind.

Steven mentioned something similar in his old post from 2005, and in reality, shooting here does nothing. The guards set their target position based on when their animations end, so shooting would've been irrelevant. Given that Steven's knowledge is from early 2000's and the mechanics of guard tracking weren't figured out until much much later, I suppose it's understandable.

Quote
Steven: Sometimes the guards that come from behind reach stage 3 quickly because they occasionally warp to it.

Another slight misunderstanding, warping doesn't actually speed up the guards (apart from them being able to warp through doors without opening them). But again, that was figured out in relatively recent times.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 07:22:54 am by Wyst3r »

Weatherman

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I tried forcing the sidestep/sidehop/running sideways animations and as I suspected, the game checks for obstacles (such as the glass door) and will always chose a direction that leads away from it. So as long as the guard is close enough to the glass, he won't step/hop/run towards it.

Is it possible for this check to pass but still result in the guard moving close enough to the door to go open it or go through it? How accurate / conservative is the check? Alternatively, is it possible to change the behavior the guard chooses after the check? For example, if a side hop check uses a shorter distance and then the guard changes to a run state instead, could the guard run toward the door?

wheatrich

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His explanation is actually insane (in the right ways) and makes me hopeful this can work.  I'd like to see Henrik chime in, which I'm sure he'll do soon, but it "sounds" plausible at least.  I'm very keen for the next steps.

Btw: re "B.arber" and whatnot... as the power of the elite admin team began to wane, they tried to do a bunch of bullshit that would annoy the "true" eliters... too many things to mention, but they changed a few words such as:

B.arber => Bearder
P.robert => that jerk
s.orcery => tomfoolery

I'm sure someone could change it back, but the "keys" to the various administration tools are pretty scattered among various semi-inactive people who can't be arsed with simple tasks.  A shame they've leave the elite in such a state... it's actually quite incredible how much we've come despite guys like Ngamer (B.arber), Come, etc, trying to sabotage the place before they were finally exiled for good.

It's really amazing how far we've come despite you being a total clown with constant posts like this.  I don't think you'll ever grow up.

stefankok

  • Posts: 27
It turns out that Steven's profile was deleted by his brother's son, as was kind of expected. Not a big deal, the end screen is only a very soft form of proof and Steven is pretty sure he can reproduce the Aztec trick again with some time put into it. The boy has only beaten Dam and Facility on Agent difficulty, which means that SZ has to play through the entire game again. Not a big deal either, because he was going to have to put some hours into getting his skills back anyway and this would serve for good practice. He's really motivated to play through the game and demonstrate his Aztec trick. He's gonna do that somewhere next week when he has time. He's 100% sure he can beat his 1:31 if he sits down and seriously goes for it like in the old days.
In the meantime he's still answering questions from my e-mail here and there. He also still needs to acquire a capture card and needs to know how to use it, which won't be a problem if he gets some help from Karel or Patrick.

He saw the new Aztec strategy and then thought of a new idea that could be useful, i'll post and translate it later. He also thought of a new strat on Control that would save some time. He will test them out and record them if they work.

EDIT: Credit goes to AForgottenEvent for posting this in the strat topic. Illu's Aztec LTK 2:23 might have an instance where the glass is opened by one guard. I'm not an expert in Goldeneye, but this looks like a 1 guard glass opening to me. How did nobody notice this before?

http://www.thengamer.com/GE/19-Aztec/Illu%20-%20Aztec%20LTK%202.23.wmv
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 11:29:54 pm by stefankok »

--

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What seems to be happening there is that, the two guards went to the glass, it opened, then one of those two guards spun around and went running around in another spot (after he couldn't get to the spot he wanted to go to because it was being blocked by the other guard).  So one of those two guards on the left actually was, when the glass opened, at the glass.

On LTK the guards have max "reaction speed" so they can "interpret" that Bond isn't in a certain position more quickly, and begin to run to another position  more quickly.

Obviously we don't "know" for sure, and Henrik or others will come in and confirm, but that's my interpretation.
~ S T A Y ❄ T R U E ~   |   ~ S T A Y ❄ B L E S S E D ~   |   Verax Maneret

Ignominious Sin

  • Posts: 123
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So a guy who hasn’t played GE in years is going to get his old N64/GE back. Purchase a capture card, recreate a strat which no one else has been able to, and has been explained by TAS’ers to be impossible. Get a time worth more that 65 points, on arguably the most difficult stage in the game. Just to prove a point to people who’ve made a meme out of him for not ever having proof. If he does do it, He is a legend. But come on...
The elite as we know it is done. I'm emailing my people. Enjoy a dead forum.

punjabie

  • Posts: 102
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Sounds silly but I really want to see good ol SZ's strat too actually. To claim some insane time (I believe this was before the bossman himself unveiled the glass strat to us) and say you've come up with a strategy, but Im never going to tell you was a bit ridiculous. Shouldn't have been allowed imo, but thats neither here nor there. And yes gooses explanation is correct. We have instances all be it very rare, where there are no guards by the glass, but 2 guards off to the left by mainframe. Case in point Qweczols run https://clips.twitch.tv/SaltyIncredulousNostrilPeanutButterJellyTime

stefankok

  • Posts: 27
I told Steven about the sidestepping at the glass door that Henrik couldn't get to work due to him always choosing a direction going away from it.

Quote
Stefan: I read on the forums that Henrik tried to force the programmed sidestep from the guard at the glass with a hack
Stefan: But he says that the game checks for obstacles and always chooses a direction leading away from the glass.
Stefan: Has it ever opened for you with a sidestep/random animation?
Steven: Is that a recent post? Will read it to know what he means exactly.
Stefan: Yes, on the Elite forums.
Steven: You're seeing that sidestep because you can't make contact with the guard.
Steven: Only if you make contact and shoot above his head as a second option.
Steven: There he can then make a sidestep or run.
Steven: To make this clear, it would be best for me to get it on video.

Here's that idea that Steven came up with after seeing the new Aztec strat, no idea if it's gonna work but he is going to test it.

Quote
Steven: I saw the vid about the new Aztec strat.
Steven: Gave me some ideas.
Steven: You are definitely going to get slaughtered while performing the crouch strat.
Steven: My idea is to indeed give the guard that is sprinting to the glass a leg shot.
Steven: Then strafe to it and then going behind him standing up to him instead of crouching in front of him.
Steven: This way you prevent taking a lot of damage plus you are getting other positive things going.
Steven: You're standing closer to the glass and can now determine the angle on which you want the guard running to you at.
Steven: The chances of the glass opening is then bigger plus you take less damage. If this works, then this makes the strategy viable for SA and 00 Agent.
Steven: Then you can let the guard mid-right live and can kill him in the right-side behind corner. The middle guard has the most straight line towards you if you are hiding behind the guard whose at the glass.
Steven: Now this guard can walk to you and around the guard in one straight line plus he has to go to the glass door and open it.
Steven: The guard in the right corner has a side view of you and the guard so there is a line that he can shoot. Thus you are definitely better off killing this guard on SA and 00A.
Steven: Will test this for sure.  :smiley:

flicker

  • Posts: 1445
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Checked the Aztec 2:23 and I was not surprised. Irie basically summed it up perfectly.

Looks to me like as he was hiding and shooting, the left guard that helped open the glass ran to the left. Doesn't look very promising that one guard did it

It's actually quite common to only SEE one guard at the glass by the time you hear it open and react to it opening. Any extra time waiting behind the wall will often lead to one of the guards moving away from the glass towards Bond, usually getting stuck on the wall for some period of time.

This Henrik video with Lua Map is a good demonstration of this occurrence. When the glass opens at 0:23, on the map you see one of the guards immediately on his way out of there, only to be stopped when he sees Bond.

Blue Khakis

  • Posts: 60
Plot twist: none of this ever comes to fruition and everyone is disappointed.

punjabie

  • Posts: 102
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lmao Im with blue khakis on this one

stefankok

  • Posts: 27
Small update: Steven just played a bit of Goldeneye this week and unlocked and played Aztec. He still needs a capture card but that should be taken care of soon(this weekend maybe).   :smiley:

Shadow

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I'm impressed he's shown even this much effort so far, tbh.

Scrambler Fanny

  • Posts: 7237
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What if SZ playing again, urges WJ to play again?

💚


"And I mean, I'm the GE champ.  Did you actually expect I would have a normal relationship?" -David Clemens

stefankok

  • Posts: 27
Just to clarify for anybody who is wondering about Steven's old tapes. The majority of the tapes containing his MK64 and GE footage(which are the ones of most value to us) were send to Rene Elsaesser, a guy who was the webmaster of the PAL MK64 time trial site and GE rankings back in the late 90s. He never put any of those online as you can probably guess. The guy is unfortunately rather difficult to get a hold of, he is no longer active in gaming and doesn't seem to be on any social media sites. It is the same case with Peter Elsaesser(his brother and former world champion of MK64 in the late 90s).

Iacopo could still possibly have some tapes from Steven that feature some of the other N64 games he competed in at N64HS(Steven is pretty sure he did send him some tapes). However they're at his mothers who lives in a different city, so he can't check until the next time he visits again. He also still has a tape from Kevin Booth there.

For anyone that it's interested, here is a link listing the majority of games that Steven competed in and his achievements.
https://pastebin.com/EYmk3Hfk

Scrambler Fanny

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Genuine question (ignore if already brought up):

Why doesn’t SZ post here and “speak” for himself?

As a fellow “Ancient,” I’ve been following this news since its original post and would love for the reinsurgence of a player like this.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 04:03:21 pm by Scrambler Fanny »


"And I mean, I'm the GE champ.  Did you actually expect I would have a normal relationship?" -David Clemens

stefankok

  • Posts: 27
^ Don't think he wanted to reply in the public eye at first, but i could be wrong. He does want to now, but he forgot the password to his old account and stuff. We already fixed it for the mk forums, maybe this can be done here as well.

mw

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As far as I know there is no recovery option for such old accounts on this forum. I would recommend he just create a new forum account.
PD Proof Moderator

TheFlash

  • Posts: 2772
You just have to tell the forum admin the email address you want to log into the old account with. Usually this happens when someone sends an email to the help address that is displayed when you try the "Forgot password" routine with an account that has no email address associated with it.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 06:58:45 pm by TheFlash »

stevenZ

  • Posts: 4
    • GE
Hello all.
I think its been 15 years since my last post :)
I see alot has changed during all these years.
A lot of new talent, new worldchampions and most importantly a big social group of people who are willing to combine forces to get these games to an insanely high level.

I must admit after seeing a post about me after 15 years of inactivety I was kinda flattered.
After google-ing Todd Rogers I am not sure I should be ;).
It actually kinda hurts after 100s of hours of time I put into many games to read people always had doubts about my achievements.
Reason enough for me to dust up the old cartridges. The post triggered me to do at least something which is a positive thing I guess.

For me alot has changed over the years though.
Im a happy 39 years old married man now with 2 kids, a nice job and a good social life.
Gaming is not really on my priority list anymore but after playing a bit of Goldeneye last week I still feel I have a gaming heart.
I remember back in the days Patrick Wessels and I were late, running like hell to get the train just in time.
We decided to keep a left strafe all the way so we should de faster...yes bin there...:p

Alrhough i have other priorities now l still like to complete some proof  on tape, camera or capture card. I might not finish this today or tomorrow but it will happen eventually.
I hope to finish this all with a suprise video, but also still working on that :)

In the meantime I will finish the interview with the nice questions Stefan Kok asked me and I will try to put some detail in some of the questions.
Also thank you for all the help so far Stefan :)

Im out now.
Will be back soon.





Ray Ruane

  • Posts: 36
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Holy shit. He's back. He's really, really back.

Love Goose, but would love nothing more than for Steven to post proof of the legendary Aztec strategy.

Luke

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wake me up in 5 years when another development on this topic occurs

for now,   

   zzz...
LAS

#TeamLevelRotation