Author Topic: The Steven Zwartjes Saga Continues - Possible Aztec Strat Vid Coming Soon?!?  (Read 20172 times)


eastwood

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Had he remained silent he probably would have cast less doubt on himself than he's done now, considering the proof of owning a Gameshark and the proximity of him creating a "scrolling proof video" for those historic LR "records" a mere few months ago.

The only thing Steven managed to prove in this thread is how much of a joke he is.

dugg

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Not that it matters but for clarification purposes:

1) Gamesharks aren't used in Europe as far as I know.  I think the player in question is European.
2) Action Replay is used in Europe.  It's basically the same thing as a Gameshark as far as looks/functionality.
3) The codes would probably differ from GS codes but I'm not sure.

Besides, even if one of those devices weren't used there are still other ways to get sketchy things to occur like using an Everdrive.
(Which WOULD fit like playing a regular N64 cart)
Spoiler
The SD card that stores ROMs/mods/hacks is located in the top of the cart.
Spoiler
Flashcarts too:
Spoiler

Just a few cents of useless info.

BTW, Krikzz ED64 is pretty cool from what I've read.  v2.5 at least.  V3.0 having more features.


« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 10:46:24 pm by dugg »

Wyst3r

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Found a corresponding AR code:

http://www.lych.demon.co.uk/goldeneye/arcohome.htm

Havent tried it but the code looks to be a direct port of the GS code, with the addresses simply changed for PAL version.

spec BFR player

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1) Having a bunch of lackeys doing your posting for you
2) When you get called out, instantly push the WOW SO MUCH NEGATIVITY narrative
3) Afterwards, give the "lolz I have a real life" punchline

Is this 2007 internet meta all over again? Jesus christ just purge every single PR in this guy's history already, go play with your buddies Todd Rodgers and Silly Bitchell. Also, nice touch writing "out of bounce" on purpose to rep being clueless. Don't you know that shit stopped working after the 90's?

Based Henrik btw.
Speedrun Times
Chat highlights not embed so that forums don't get clogged:
http://i.imgur.com/HPNYJKM.png
http://i.imgur.com/jDB72Q1.png

"Part of what makes a shitpost good is that it contains Truth."

Ray Ruane

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Wait, before we call him a complete fraud, wasn't he a highly respected Goldeneye Champion with proven-ish times back in the day?! I wouldn't say that ALL of his times were fake.

If that was the case however, does that mean that Mike Martin is the original and longer-lasting Goldeneye Champion?!

JDBlack21

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No because Sterling was ahead of Steven
Discord: @JDBlack#9593

Blue Khakis

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Wait, before we call him a complete fraud, wasn't he a highly respected Goldeneye Champion with proven-ish times back in the day?! I wouldn't say that ALL of his times were fake.
I'm sure Lance Armstrong would have been a pretty talented cyclist even if he hadn't doped, and maybe he even won some races clean. The point is that once someone has lost credibility, it becomes impossible to know which records are and aren't fake.

watertemplefiend

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This simply comes down to proof. Has proof been given, no. He had gotten proven times which no one is disputing because the evidence is there! People will demand for evidence of amazing clamied strats, obviously. Like Billy Mitchel no one is disputing that he can achieve high Kong scores, only the evidence that is being put forward. Of course due to this credibility of the person in question is completely shattered and with good reason! An argument is pointless in this regard, no evidence, no renown. Believing myths is counter productive especially with a game like ge where strats and much investigation has gone into the game over many years. No point in debating litterally nothing.

stevenZ

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You guys really are more disgusting than I could have ever imagined. How can you treat people like this. It is a big shame this forum has gotten so rotten.
Its such a joke. You are all so wrong about all the made assumptions. And you will find out sooner or later.

I insist all my Goldeneye times will be removed.
I no longer want to be part of anything related to the goldeneye community. This is by far the worst and most diseased community I have ever seen.
I hope you are all happy now and proud of yourselves.

watertemplefiend

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You guys really are more disgusting than I could have ever imagined. How can you treat people like this. It is a big shame this forum has gotten so rotten.
Its such a joke. You are all so wrong about all the made assumptions. And you will find out sooner or later.

I insist all my Goldeneye times will be removed.
I no longer want to be part of anything related to the goldeneye community. This is by far the worst and most diseased community I have ever seen.
I hope you are all happy now and proud of yourselves.

It's sad that the response has been so brutal! I feel like the complete shattering of a career of times is completely crazy based on starts that haven't been completely proven. I'm personally in the mindset of it needs to be proven to be valid, totally neutral view.

Anemptybox

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Of course people will react like this if no evidence or even good explanation is given for strats that are considered impossible by everyone else, including people who know the game code in detail. They truly believe you're lying and wasting their free time and that's considered pretty rude. For me personally, I trust Henrik and the other GE professors, but I don't know enough about the game to say you're lying 100 % just based on my own knowledge.

--

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Steven - if you truly "don't care" about the community anymore, and have "moved on" with a nice life (which I agree, having a wife and children sounds incredible!) then why don't you just come forward and admit that you never actually got Aztec Agent 1:31 or Luigi's Raceway 1'58'14?  Just admit you were a dumb, young kid back then and made some mistakes that went too far.  Why are you keeping up these lies, 15 years later?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 04:43:13 pm by The man who trolled and lost everything »
~ S T A Y ❄ T R U E ~   |   ~ S T A Y ❄ B L E S S E D ~   |   Verax Maneret

stevenZ

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Goose, I can certainly tell having my wife and 2 children is a blessing. You might not want to hear it as everyone else, but Aztec and Luigi raceway did happen 100% and I"m still proud of it. Maybe my biggest mistake was accepting the challenge proving the glass strat. I thought too light about this since my life 15 years later changed drastically.
I need to play 10 hours straight to get something decent to work. My skilllevel dropped, the desire to play 10 hours straight to prove a 15 year old record isnt very high, plus there arent that many days in my life where there is no work and no wife and kids counting on me.
I sincerely apologise for that making that promise too easy.
I am a positive person though, so I know with the fun hours I put into playing some Nintendo every now and then it will happen eventually.

For all having said that, it is unforgivable how I and other people are treated in this forum. I have been reading some other topics and I am absolutely not the only one who got this treatment. How is this a positive thing? Is this really the way you guys want to communicate with eachother around here?
I really hope people are gonna get the respect every human being deserves.

I will leave in peace once again and I hope my times from all the Goldeneye charts will be deleted as soon as possible.
Thank you for that.

Steven Zwartjes

Jimbo

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Nope, he is taking this one to the grave, same exact response Todd Rogers has too. It's really not a "diseased" community, people just don't like liars and having their intelligence insulted so we call out most of the garbage spewed from fellows like yourself. In history, you're a GE champion and a guy with many untieds, fight for that legacy man don't just say "cya, remove me, peace". It's just something we've all seen before. The same types of frustrations seen in courtrooms when such overwhelming evidence is still denied - continue to waste our time.


--

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Zwartjes, I have given you the benefit of the doubt more than any journalist ever would.  We were all cheering for you.  At least all of the older guys were.  We wanted you to come back and show us this strategy, because that would have been one of the craziest stories in all of gaming history.  You would have been a legend forever.  There is no reason why demonstrating and recreating a strategy should require as much skill as you claim.  You could have just shown us what you did, even if you didn't get a good record with it... all we needed to see was the glass opening.  This shouldn't require much skill; only knowledge.  And if you showed this, our imaginations would still have been able to maybe just believe, for a second, that the 1:31 actually happened as you claimed.

But you showed us nothing.  You kept hiding things from us and not being very clear.  You pulled classic liar cards like "I don't need to prove this!" "I'm beyond this now." "You're being rude to my family!" (Todd Rogers pulled these exact same cards as an excuse to not attempt Dragster 5.51 live in front of an audience).  You are a classic liar and there is no one left in the world who still believes your claim.

I will give you one final opportunity to say anything you want to say for me to include in a video, summarizing and concluding this entire saga.  You can admit you lied, you can have one last chance to prove yourself, or you can say anything else you wish for me to include.  In the sake of fairness, balance, and high quality, journalistic video making, I will give you this one last courtesy.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 09:25:55 pm by The man who trolled and lost everything »
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Boss

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Are there posts/topics of the Runway 23/Dam 54 etc from the stone ages? It would be nice to revisit those and see how things were in the early days.

Huzi

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Are there posts/topics of the Runway 23/Dam 54 etc from the stone ages? It would be nice to revisit those and see how things were in the early days.

https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=7336.0

Time was untied when set.

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Get your lame no good sorry ass  out of here. Stop being dellusional and just admit you lied.

I would  normally stick up for you because you lift (or at least did) but not in this case. Youre  pathetic.  Even when faced  with heaps of evidence that you are lying, all you can say is "wow this community is so toxic I shouldn't be treated like this".

Honestly I think you're just insane and enjoy having your saga stick around because you actually think there's hype about it, but in reality nobody actually believes you and never will so just gtfo.
teh peoples champ

JDBlack21

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Are there posts/topics of the Runway 23/Dam 54 etc from the stone ages? It would be nice to revisit those and see how things were in the early days.

https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=7113.0
Discord: @JDBlack#9593

Grav

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SZ's times will be removed from the rankings per the-elite council's decision. Goose is going to archive it all and once he's finished with whatever he needs, it will be enacted.

Scrambler Fanny

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Well HOT DANG! This sure went high and to the right...

Any other Ancients that might have been in cahoots?


"And I mean, I'm the GE champ.  Did you actually expect I would have a normal relationship?" -David Clemens

AZ

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I actually captured some of Zwartjes' 1998 times a while ago:

https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=21488.0

So he actually did tape some runs back in the ancient era. It would be a downer to see Facility A 0:55 be removed from the rankings/WR database. It's the earliest proven record we have.

Saltkillzsnails

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The mention of another strategy after failing to replicate the one he has described for years and years in poor detail is all the evidence you need that this has all been a sham.  He wanted to save face by posting in another forum his videos where they know nothing of 007 and believe him to be credible. Unfortunately for him several others posted for him here where the veterans have extensive knowledge and can call bs

He has time to concoct new strategies, mess with his gameshark equivalent but not enough time to prove the strategy that started this whole mess? Sure seems like a waste of time for someone who finds is so scarce

--

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But Axel, is it not true that his Facility Agent 0:55, was not "proven" until a long time later; after 0:54 was the record?  And even in his 55 video, it says "best time 54", indicating that the run you are watching, is *not* proof of him getting 55 as a WR.  Therefore it is not the "earliest proven record we have."

SZ has been inconsistent like this his entire career.  And the fact that he, literally, *has never proven a single GE WR he claimed, while it was still the WR* was a big factor in the unanimous (7-0) council vote to remove him.
~ S T A Y ❄ T R U E ~   |   ~ S T A Y ❄ B L E S S E D ~   |   Verax Maneret

dugg

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His LTK times are still up.

mw

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His LTK times are still up.

Thanks for noticing, fixed now.
PD Proof Moderator

AZ

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The times on the tape (with the exception of Facility 5:51) were all non-WRs yes, but only Zwartjes himself had claimed faster times. The best times on the cartridge corresponds well with the earliest claimed times on the WR database (Train 1:27/Caverns 1:07/Fac 0:54).

Earlier we've had players removed because of cheating and splicing, or because of having zero proof, but to remove a player's times page completely when he actually has some ancient 1998 records on tape is sad in my opinion. Sure Zwartjes may not have proven much, and the Aztec 1:31 is notorious in its own right, and it was backrolled a long time ago. I don't approve of Zwartjes' behaviour and comments lately, but you are erasing part of the earliest elite history by deleting all his times without any consideration. I guess, to me at least, it's mostly sad from a historic perspective, as me and Woll have worked hard to build up the WR database (with Zwartjes gone the database has to rewritten), but also knowing I more or less captured Zwartjes' ancient 1998 tape for nothing.

Grav

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without any consideration

What? This has been in the process of "consideration" for years. Just because you don't like the result doesn't mean it's automatically a reactionary and unfounded decision. The action hastened lately because SZ came back to say the stuff he did which gave new light to the situation. It tipped the scales enough to remove him, but the scales were being weighed long before that.

it's mostly sad from a historic perspective, as me and Woll have worked hard to build up the WR database

Yes, we all love historical upkeep and we are extremely grateful for everything Greg, you, and others do in maintaining it. At the end of the day though, that documentation is subordinate to our greater goal of accurately ranking players that have met or exceeded the evolving standards we establish for the community. Some things get grandfathered, some things don't. In this specific case, there is enough shady activity and lack of credibility that the council and many in the community at large were simply not willing to take his word for it and grandfather his times blindly into our modern rankings.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 07:53:35 pm by Grav »

stefankok

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Well this certainly took an unexpected turn, definitely didn't expect it to end like this.
I had no idea that sending Goose that video who then shared it to the Elite Discord would have caused the SZ topic to explode in an atomic fashion like this, i guess this is what you can call a butterfly effect maybe? lol

I will be doing a pretty big post here soon, i wanted to post it earlier but i was pretty busy lately and need to get back on track with school. I'll lay out all the facts that i have discovered while investigating SZ, all relevant information which i have talked with Steven about like the Aztec one guard glass strat for example which has not been posted/shared anywhere yet and much more.

I won't act as the middle-man anymore, this whole thing has been going on for over 3 months and it's time for me to focus on other things honestly. Post should be up somewhere later this week.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 08:00:42 pm by stefankok »

--

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We look forward to your post and appreciate all you've done in this case Stefan.  I think your post will be the "beginning of the end" of this whole SZ saga.
~ S T A Y ❄ T R U E ~   |   ~ S T A Y ❄ B L E S S E D ~   |   Verax Maneret

Botched Movie Quotes

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Steven has been compulsively lying since at least 2001. All details will be revealed in time.
*Creator of 'waiting half a sec more cutscene' on b2 agent*
*Creator of 'bounce boost' on streets agent*
*Creator of 'strafe change laser skip' on inves*

Shadow

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Wow. This went south quickly. For starters, has anyone actually proven that the person posting is Steven? Would be a real shame for a troll to impersonate and get someone removed.

TheFlash

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Wow. This went south quickly. For starters, has anyone actually proven that the person posting is Steven? Would be a real shame for a troll to impersonate and get someone removed.

I have confirmed that the account here used the same IP address as the account that posted the same message on 26 June on the Mario Kart forum.

Shadow

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Thanks, that is certainly a start, though that could fit evidence for a troll as well. I'm just stunned at how quickly this went from "I don't believe this is really Steven anyway" to "let's remove all his times! He used gameshark!"

And once again saddened at how any historical continuity is repeatedly shredded. Over and over again. Despite claims every time that this is pretty much the last one. I'm all for a proven rankings but not at the cost of history.

dugg

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Wow. This went south quickly. For starters, has anyone actually proven that the person posting is Steven? Would be a real shame for a troll to impersonate and get someone removed.

Didn't want to suggest this - figured it was obvious.  Very possible.
Similar thoughts about some other unrelated posts here over the years but I'm in no place to make issue of it especially if it's just some vets having fun.

Also, that video with the "OOB" on Aztec was in my opinion a clear indication of trolling.  Obviously it's sketchy just upon viewing but it almost came across as whoever released it did so with intention to take the piss a little.

Ogran knows what that means.  :kappa:
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 10:41:35 pm by dugg »

Grav

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Despite claims every time that this is pretty much the last one. I'm all for a proven rankings but not at the cost of history.

Who is claiming it will be the last time it happens? And in what sane universe does history take precedent over recent and relevant evidence of foul play? It doesn't matter if nobody was banned before them or 50 people were banned before them. If every old player in the history of the game comes out and either makes it obvious they cheated or made it clear beyond reasonable doubt that they can't be trusted, they'd ALL be banned. What are we supposed to do, just say "okay bro you cheated, but you're from the old era so it doesn't count :P" or "but someone else was banned before you and we can't allow more people to be banned thats just too much so never mind keep punking us :P". Obviously there's a level of grandfathering we have been willing to accept too, but its clear the SZ shit should not be blindly accepted given the information we have available.

Being on the rankings is a privilege. Players don't have any right to permanence just because they managed to get their times accepted when they submitted them. One year later, 20 years later, 200 years later... if someone is found to be cheating or likely cheating, they are gone.  If you want to keep your own personal record of the history of the game including splicers and liars, be my guest. It's not going to remain on the official rankings. If people want to guarantee their times stay on the rankings, perhaps they should try actually proving their times. If they aren't willing to do that, they have to accept the potential outcome we see taking place.

You may just be ignorant of the full breadth of the situation, so if that is true I'd just recommend reading up on all the stuff here and in the mario kart community.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 10:53:06 pm by Grav »

--

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Shadow - a lot has been going on outside of this thread, since May.  Many karters have been in contact with the real SZ (through Facebook, email, etc), so SZ is well aware that this "news" has resurfaced.  So in order for the poster in this thread and the Mario Kart thread to be an impostor, he would have to:

1a) have hacked SZ's main accounts on other social media & email, or;
1b) be knowing exactly when to post as SZ, as others expect him to (they would often tell me, "oh SZ will post soon")

2) have somehow gone undetected by the real SZ, despite the real SZ following both threads as this was unfolding (SZ likely would have called out or confronted an impostor)

It is just completely unreasonable and an absolute conspiracy theory for this to "not be the real SZ."  It would unironically be the greatest, most elaborate hoax in speedrunning history... which ironically, could likely only be pulled off by SZ himself!  :rollin:

You can read the Mario Kart thread for more: http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1526616780
~ S T A Y ❄ T R U E ~   |   ~ S T A Y ❄ B L E S S E D ~   |   Verax Maneret

KVD

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Did it ever occur to you he might be testing you instead of the other way around?

Intentionally 'leaking' a Gameshark video, I mean come on. And it wasn't even a video relating to the contested 1-guard lure strat either, so there was nothing at stake.

The reactions in this thread were correctly described as weaponized autism by another karter. Honestly, I think you've all been played. The real proof of the strat might still follow, just as a lesson not to base conclusions on assumptions, no matter how strong they seem.
I would like to state that this is not the course of action I would have taken if I were SZ either, but he must have been annoyed at the amount of prejudice he encountered from this community before any proof was even on the table. And the extreme reactions to the obvious bait leak only enforced this point further. That is, IF it even is Gameshark footage. We're just going by what one expert has to say on the matter, and I honestly have no idea how on point he (Henrik) is or isn't.

If I'm wrong about the above, and I very well could be (as I don't like drawing conclusions before the evidence is out), then SZ is far less smart than I gave him credit for for all these years. It's possible, but for me it would be quite the shocking upset for a person to go from 'strat inventor extraordinaire' to 'too dumb to realize Gameshark footage won't pass for console proof'.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 10:23:06 am by KVD »

Shadow

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Who is claiming it will be the last time it happens? And in what sane universe does history take precedent over recent and relevant evidence of foul play?...

You may just be ignorant of the full breadth of the situation, so if that is true I'd just recommend reading up on all the stuff here and in the mario kart community.

Grav, I have been following both threads, if there is more information out there I'd be happy to read it. As to history, don't put words in my mouth. History doesn't take precedence over accurate rankings. I was in full support of the Henning removal, for example, and I myself ran the Rogue Squadron 64 rankings for numerous years and when I took over had to eliminate five or six players for obvious cheating on a single level. I get it. But the evidence in this case seems awfully slim for something that happened nearly 20 years ago, to the point of where it sure seems like elimination over suspicion by several very vocal people.

What are the actual facts? Would anyone in the know lay out what is actually known about this and not due to bias or suspicion or gut-feelings?

Because what I see is that there was a claim of a really good time (not impossible time) on GE and Mario Kart from nearly 20 years ago.
A person claiming to be Steven posting information through some other guys.
Henrik saying that as he understands it the strat wouldn't work.
An unrelated video with some goofy behavior.
Ban.

It could very well be the correct action, but the conviction seems to run more on emotion (even by very new people) than facts. If someone can have their reputation and legacy completely lost on so little evidence, that doesn't bode well for the health of the community.

As to people like Jimbo saying he should prove his legacy, I stated in one of my very first posts in this thread that I would be surprised if he cared enough. At some point most of us have just let go. If you told me I had to play 10 hours to prove my multiple untied records from Rogue Squadron, I probably wouldn't care enough to do it, though I'd be upset. If this is Steven, and he has a family, and hasn't been involved in competitive gaming for 15 years, I totally get where he is coming from and I don't think a lot of people in this thread do.

Now maybe there is tons more evidence and discussion going on in Discord or whatever other platforms. But based on what I've read here and the Mario Kart forums, it's concerning. And I know I'm not the only one who thinks this an overreaction.

Grav

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HES JUST PLAYING 4D CHESS BRO LMAO :rollin:

Spoiler

Re:shadow

If we only make actions based off indisputable evidence, we would find it near impossible to ever remove anyone when they are very likely not telling the truth. For example, if some new player joins the-elite rankings and immediately posts 120 WRs on PD/GE including 30 combined untieds, but every single video individually has nothing necessarily wrong with it that indicates cheating, would you allow it all to stay? The purpose of the council is exactly for these situations. Even if we have no way to prove it, the odds of that being legit is so low compared to the odds it's fake that it would be an easy decision to remove. If we only needed a smoking gun splice discovery, the council would serve little to no purpose in existing. It was made so that a responsible, trusted, and knowledgeable group of people could decide in uncertain situations what is most likely to be the case.

In the opinion of almost every council member, SZ has displayed in his actions nearly every quality a caught cheater exhibits. If you don't agree after seeing everything he has written, there's nothing anyone can really say to change your opinion. But please don't act like this is some emotional thoughtless act just because you don't like the result. We take the rankings extremely seriously and try to avoid removal of any players or times, especially those who have had important roles in history, whenever possible. In short, the odds of him being legit about all his times, or the odds of him EPIC PRANKING US is simply lower (and far lower in the opinion of many) than the odds of him not being legit. If he had more proof for many of his other major claimed times, he would probably have been given more benefit of the doubt like other older players were given. Unfortunately for him, he doesn't have that level of proof to give us enough trust to keep him. And when even one of your times cannot be trusted, none of them can.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 09:20:51 am by Grav »

Shadow

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In the opinion of almost every council member, SZ has displayed in his actions nearly every quality a caught cheater exhibits. If you don't agree after seeing everything he has written, there's nothing anyone can really say to change your opinion.

Okay. So I get the opposing opinions. I get that there are probabilities. Unfortunately we can't even put an accurate number to those probabilities aside from gut feelings and guilt by association with similar behavior. So what are the actual facts in this case? Is there something significant I'm missing other than what I vaguely outlined above?

This case is particularly important because of the historical impact Steven had in the rankings and in other communities. This goes beyond just The Elite. The responsibility for ensuring this is the right choice is tremendous. Keep in mind that there are motives at play here that inform biases.

And yes, I am of the opinion that it should be nearly impossible to remove someone from the ranks without incontrovertible proof of cheating. I'm a fan of "innocent until proven guilty". At the very least, I'm happy to go on record as stating that I believe the Council's decision to be premature, unless there is some major evidence I'm unaware of. Thanks.

KVD

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^100% agree



Read the last lines of that Sagan quote especially.

Grav

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This case is particularly important because of the historical impact Steven had in the rankings and in other communities.

His "importance" in other communities does not and should not preclude us from taking actions we deem fit based on his times he claimed in our game. If the greatest speedrunner of all time who has proven every time he ever claimed in all his other games joins the-elite and posts a time that is deemed fake or highly like to be so, they're gone. The mario kart community is free to do whatever they want with SZ (and I assume it will be nothing, because that's all they ever do).

And yes, I am of the opinion that it should be nearly impossible to remove someone from the ranks without incontrovertible proof of cheating. I'm a fan of "innocent until proven guilty". At the very least, I'm happy to go on record as stating that I believe the Council's decision to be premature, unless there is some major evidence I'm unaware of. Thanks.

Well your opinion is your own, but it runs contrary to the foundational principle of a proven rankings. Why do you think proof videos are called proof videos? Because the burden of proof is on the player, not the moderators. It really is that simple. When the burden of proof is on the player, they are by default "guilty of not having achieved the time" until they prove they are innocent. If at any time a player's proof or lack thereof is deemed insufficient, they no longer retain the privilege of keeping their claimed time on the rankings. In SZ's case, he was grandfathered in so his standard of proof is clearly significantly lower than players who post today. But the cost of being grandfathered in with such low initial proof standards is that it then becomes far easier to violate that standard than if they had high quality footage for everything already.

The rankings is not a court of law. You have no right to be on the modern elite.net rankings. There are no statutes of limitations. It is not a proper analogy at all.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 10:39:43 am by Grav »

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  • Frankly, my dear, I don't care
    • Karl
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I'm not going to outline everything specific but here are some general reasons why he was removed.

1) He has never proven a single one of his PB's. While there are some ancient vids from '98 showing non best runs with best time, these are only evidence of the runs themselves. Gamesharking best times has been popular since 98 and beyond. When I say he has never proven a single PB I mean exactly that, not a single one. This isn't enough to get someone removed but the problem is that when you don't have any proof and you're a confirmed liar it becomes a problem.
2) Steven lied about his aztec times and strategy. I have no idea what Shadow means when he says "Henrik saying that as he understands it the strat wouldn't work.", is this supposed to downplay this or something? Henrik has confirmed through studying the mechanics of the game that a single guard strat can never work. On top of us having a mechanistic understanding of the way the guards open the glass, we also had many people trying the strat both at the time and over the years. To claim that the strat being not doable is just a hunch or a guess is either ignorant or disingenuous. 
 2.1 In older posts Steven claimed to have executed the strat multiple times. He has been documented saying that it took him '1 hour' to get it to work (now it has changed to 10 hours), plus he has his claimed PR's + the multiple successful attempts you need in order to actually get PB's. These claims have been confirmed beyond reasonable doubt to lies as the strat is impossible, and also it is unreasonable that at the time he got it to work multiple times but then in the 16 years following could not get it a single time on vid (not be steven nor anyone else).
3) Steven was indeed pushed many times in the past to provide videos, which he refused to do. There are many posts of other members attempting to get him to record times which he always declined, and in fact in one instance became enraged at the idea of having to provide proof.
4) Aztec isn't the only insane claim he has made. In 2001 he claimed 4:25 control OOA which was a 9 second untied at the time and faster than the SA record (and much faster than his SA PR at the time). This just doesn't happen in reality. Never before, or since has the SA record been faster than 00A record, and for good reason. When he made the claim he said he had a new strat which he said he would unveil but he never did, and it was never mentioned again. He also made other insane claims like b1 17 obj A fail in 2001.
5) his general attitude has been indicative of someone who is a compulsive liar. If you read his old posts he makes certifiably false claims about reality. Such as claiming he has 'tons of proof' for GE even though he had never proven a single PB, and claiming that he had records on tape or online but they had vanished (in reality they never existed). As mentioned before he became irate when pushed for video proof claiming that he was above it and already proven enough to have to provide and videos.
6) he also made that unbelievable mk64 claim, which that community even removed even though their proof standards are ridiculously low and pretty shameful. The scrolling proof he provided doesn't match reality (discussed in goose's video) as it showed a large jump instead of small increments. This flies in the face of every single other piece of data we have on other players and how non shortcut records are improved. Again, if you look at this as a single piece of evidence it may not seem like 100% proof, but it is definitely a smoking gun and when combined with every other factor the only reasonable conclusion is that the time is fabricated, or cheated.
7) His recent posts attacking the community for demanding proof and being sceptical mirrors proven cheaters like todd rogers and billy mitchell. We've seen this behaviour before, and in fact it's pretty embarrassing steven would use what seems to be a note for note response with other cheaters. But he seems to be quite ignorant of speedrunning/high scores these days and what most people are aware of.

there is only one thing that reasonably explains everything that has happened. If you don't think all the evidence points towards Steven being a liar then I really think that's on you, because most reasonable people will disagree. And again I must stress, Steven hasn't proven a single PB, so given that there is so much evidence that he falsified times we just can't let his times stand without evidence.

Now I'll clear up a couple of counter arguments.

1) Why now? Multiple reasons. Firstly, when you look at things from a distance you're able to see the entire picture so you can get a better understanding of the situation. At the time Steven made claims slowly over multiple years and as he provided no videos etc there is no way to confirm he is lying (until of course he explains a strat that is impossible). I think time brings more objectivity as well. You can hardly claim that we are jumping to conclusions given that most of this happened 15 years ago. Also, we now have an established history of liars and cheaters that we can use as examples and as learning tools to help find more cheaters.
2) Steven was a good player! So was every other cheater that was exposed. In fact the irony is that Steven was in a position to make false claims while others weren't. He already had credibility so he knew he could claim anything and people would believe him. But if you still don't understand how having credibility will make people want to make false claims I'm not sure what would convince you. We have soooo many examples in this day and age of world class people lying and cheat that it absolutely baffles my mind that people still make this crazy assumption that being a good player makes you somehow impervious to lying? This is so ignorant it's crazy. Every sport has tons of the best players exposed for doping, cheating, you name it. Even our own community had people like Henning who was a world class player and went to great lengths to fake videos. Remember, making a false claim is FAR easier than splicing a vid. If a top play is willing to splice, it is even more reasonable that ancient players also made false claims.

Happy to clarify.
*Creator of 'waiting half a sec more cutscene' on b2 agent*
*Creator of 'bounce boost' on streets agent*
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^100% agree



Read the last lines of that Sagan quote especially.

I'm glad we agree that Steven requires evidence of his times to be ranked on this website.
*Creator of 'waiting half a sec more cutscene' on b2 agent*
*Creator of 'bounce boost' on streets agent*
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KVD

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@Grav, Believe it or not, players do get banned from the Mario Kart rankings (the list is not exactly small either), though usually they get frozen first and then they have a 1 year window (or however long) to prove their claims before they are finally removed...unless they are unambigiously caught red handed, then it's instant removal. It is a less hysterical and witch-huntesque policy, which still serves the purpose of maintaining accurate rankings.

The burden is necessarily on the shoulders of the player, with this I think most people will agree. The grandfathering principle should be applied here to some extent if you ask me though (he was active in a time when video proof was hard to come by). Indeed not to give him the full green tick no questions asked, but just by giving him a reasonable deadline of sorts maybe. Anyway, it's all moot as SZ doesn't even want to be on these rankings anymore even before you all decided to remove him. I don't even know why I'm still arguing here to be honest.

^to the post above, of course I agree evidence has to be produced before we can resolve this at some point. But before that, at least some degree of caution is in order before jumping the gun wouldn't you agree?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 10:49:36 am by KVD »

Grav

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Here is the crux of it all:

SZ's times were accepted onto the rankings at the time he submitted them based entirely off trust. That was the standard everyone was held to back then. No videos needed, nothing else. He has now violated the trust of the moderators, whether you think it's warranted or not. He is being judged by the very same standards that his times were accepted with. That is the cost of getting grandfathered in for free.

Players today are accepted onto the rankings based off proof videos almost exclusively, a more objective standard. That is the standard we are all now held to. Removal of a time accepted under this standard entails a violation of proof videos or an extreme violation of trust. An untrustworthy person is MORE likely to stay on the rankings if they have videos because they have a stronger foundation behind their times. If Ace or Marc or Clemens started acting very strange and made it seem like they are not being honest about everything, there is still a higher threshold of standard violation they have to meet before being removed because they are all (mostly) proven players. In this case, it would almost certainly require a smoking gun of a splice being found, which is precisely the way it should be for players of higher reputation.

So Shadow, I do agree with you in that we need a smoking gun... but only for players who are already proven. The higher the acceptance threshold is, the higher the removal threshold is.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 11:02:14 am by Grav »

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The grandfathering principle should be applied here to some extent if you ask me though (he was active in a time when video proof was hard to come by).

To clarify, this is incorrect. In 2002 video proof was not hard to come by. Every top player was taping runs and every household had a VCR. Hell, VCRs were even dirt cheap in 2002 because of DVD's coming out. As someone who was an active player in 2000 and beyond I can assure you that those who wanted to tape runs and produce videos never had issues. At worst, video distribution was delayed, as methods of recording were abundant at the time and many players accepted VCR tapes (in fact they were demanding them) so that they could upload them on behalf of other players.

Steven actively refused to make videos or record runs. Please read his post history, he was regularly pressed to create videos but always refused and pushed back. It was a conscious effort on his part to produce no evidence.

Example: https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=7176.msg16287#msg16287 - A funny irony is that in this topic Steven states that Tim is legit. Tim would then go on to lie about many PD times and get banned  :nesquik:
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 11:31:30 am by Botched Movie Quotes »
*Creator of 'waiting half a sec more cutscene' on b2 agent*
*Creator of 'bounce boost' on streets agent*
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KVD

  • Posts: 21
Fair enough, maybe I should have said 'harder' rather than hard.
In the beginning of my SMK career (2003) I had one method to record my performances (webcam) and it has happened that this one method failed to work (for example, PC harddisk crash --> waiting for parent's PC to be replaced). So a single point of failure proof system was more common let's say. Nowadays everyone at least has cellphones that can record, etc.

Also VCR recording of gaming footage wasn't THAT easy to set-up if I remember correctly. Not every old CRT TV even facilitated it (or maybe I was just a complete techmonology noob back then, the details escape me tbh :P).

It wasn't only harder, it was more about the climate not requiring it for every run too. That's again not an excuse to grandfather a green check, just an excuse for a slightly longer frozen period (if we're going by MK proof standards let's say). Again I feel like Im arguing a moot point though, SZ can and should fight his own fights if he wants to.