Author Topic: The Steven Zwartjes Saga Continues - Possible Aztec Strat Vid Coming Soon?!?  (Read 20247 times)

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I used to play through a very old (wooden frame) TV which only had a coaxial input. All of the VCRs I've ever encountered had RCA inputs so you could record gameplay at least. If you had a super old TV you'd need a different cable to go to your TV. I'm not sure what problem you had specifically but I don't recall any players having trouble with VCR recording.

The biggest hurdle at the time was getting something onto a PC, which is what most people had issues with. But there were plenty of people willing to offer that service. Steven also had many players in close proximity that would do this as well. So especially in his case it was very easy to record something and give to the them to upload.
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Shadow

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Looking through some of Steven's old posts, I see he says he taped several, including Runway 23. Tim Greneby supposedly had the tape? I'd be interested in hearing from Wouter or Matthijis Ten Ham (better than Nine Hams!) but it may not be accurate to say he never proved a single PB. Tons have been lost over the years, as Axel has attested to repeatedly.

Blue Khakis

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Isn't this type of situation why Proof Calls and "ATTN" threads exist? Specifically because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Imagine if when he got caught, Henning said "well, if you enter the boat at a certain angle, it modfies the weapon Bond puts away in the Frigate cutscene", this would correctly be met with incredulity, and people would obviously want a demonstration. But he could have said 'Elite guidelines require video proof, I adhered to the standards of proof of the time, just because I did something you can't replicate, that's not my problem'.

Imagine further if Henrik conclusively proved that the angle of entering the boat could not possibly affect the weapon in the end cutscene, would that just mean that it hasn't been proved yet, and we should keep Henning's time up?

Andrew Kent repeatedly failed to respond to requests for proof and, as a result, he was removed. I think that's a pretty good system tbh, when the council has serious reservations about the validity of a time, and all reasonable avenues of contacting the person have been exhausted, there should be a designated period to provide proof, after which a removal takes place (with the possibility of reinstatement if they respond after the period).

Selenium Webdriver

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His claims of Invest SA 2:19.83 and CI SA 1:40.77 both rounding up add to his bogus credibility of lack thereof in my opinion. Of course, neither of those records were proven either. Then he claims a game freeze on an Infiltration Agent WR (untied?) and expects sympathy from players rather than proving his records. Just a very strange attitude overall.

stefankok

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If you're interested, this is what Michael Liem(a guy who was very important in the staff of mk64 and who knew Steven for a long time) said when asked by several people why Steven's vids are not online in the infamous "Zwartjes LR" topic. (Ignore the part about Bukrim as he was found cheating in SM64 later obviously)

Quote
To Fried:

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he mailed some tapes of his scores in other games to a few people, but I wouldn't consider that sufficient enough for him to be one of the most trusted gamers ever.  The first person to come to mind when you talk about good proof reputation would probably be Bukrim.  With him I've found that you don't even have to ask if he has a vid of one of his times or scores, you just know he has it, is willing to send it to you, and doesn't hide strats.


Ok, in a situation with currently active players, that'd be right.
However, you need to keep in mind that Steven is from a different era. During most of the time he was active, almost no one was able to transfer videos to a computer. At the start of his career even the idea of putting nintendo runs on a VHS tape and sending them to other people was quite rare. Most people just relied on trust and screenshots.

This made video game validation a bit different from now. New records could never be proven directly after getting them. You'd need to trust the player for several months, until he sends a videotape to a trustworthy webmaster. And even then you need to rely on the word of the webmaster. When someone has proven himself one or more times, he'll just get a good reputation. People were generally thankful that so many people were reliable enough to make an online video competition like this possible.

In the current MKDD competition with instant video uploading, it's often the other way around. People don't use the word trust/reputation anymore. They just use the principle: "PR with online video" = "true PR" / "PR without online video" = "possibly fake time and probably hoarded strat", no matter if the player is trusted or not. Proof reputation and trust just isn't a big issue anymore to some players (which i find very unfortunate).

What you say about Bukrim now, is what gamers from 1997-1999 would say about Zwartjes. Steven was very often online to discuss and share all his strats. He actively contacted his fellow gamers to talk about strats. He posted strategy guides on Iacopo's site. He actively sent out tons of VHS tapes to the webmasters, and also to many other players he wasn't even required to send his proof to. He just did that because he wanted to show his strats to other people. And the live-witnessing by REX and Iacopo (the most important gamers/webmasters in Europe back then) made his reputation as good as possible, since that competely ruled out any possible form of vid faking (subtle gamesharking / vid editing, illegal controllers, faking your identity).

I asked Rene Elsaesser aka REX the webmaster of Mario Kart 64 PAL and some Goldeneye rankings(the games we want to see proof for the most) about some of those tapes. He said he had received tapes from him containing MK64 and GE runs but didn't have the technology to put them online, he unfortunately threw them away ages ago when his last vcr broke, as he didn't expect anyone to ever want to see them again. Based on this and other several hints i found(which will all be included later in my post), i'm pretty certain that there were tapes from Steven who were never put online. 

I think i know what post you're talking about in which Steven said it took an hour for him to get it to work. I have seen that before but i took it as "i played an 1 hour session trying to get a time and got a 2:03 on 00 Agent", not necessarily that he only tried playing it for an hour to get it to work. He did post earlier that he pulled the trick off, but that the odds are about 1%, which is consistent with all the stuff he posted later and what he said to me this year. Again, i'm not saying the strat is real, i don't know for certain.

As for Luigi Raceway, before his proven 1'58"65 on LR, his best record there was 1'59"16. It's nothing compared to going from 1'58"65 to 1'58"14, but one could say that that is an outlier and breaks reality as well, but this record had proof. He already had very good splits for LR before 2003, but was never consistent with them and didn't want to settle for a little pr, he specifically wanted to a run that is close to his potential.


« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 12:55:33 pm by stefankok »

Jimbo

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Forgotten in this topic, much like Karl mentioning SZ's Control 00A 4:25, was SZ's Aztec 00A 2:33 jaws-strat PR which of course had no proof video. The fastest proven time was Paragon's 2:38 (by far his most notable GE contribution, btw). In addition to Steven's 1:31 Agent, he'd also claim Aztec 00A 2:03 well after the glass strat was introduced. Wouter would get close with 2:07, and myself with 2:09, but of course no proof video ever existed for 2:03.

Lark

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What exposes him is his tendency to claim PR's that are slightly above what was deemed possible at the time he posted them. This makes him look suspicious and he has a pattern of doing this.

It's clear he's just a liar.
Embrace the grind.

Smit

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Not that this will have any affect on this decision but I witnessed the 17 Archives UWR when he got it at my house.

Sorry to hear this decision has gone through.

Shadow

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He was also, as far as I know, the first to come up with the grenade strategy on Runway and quite likely the first to get the glass open on Aztec. Talking about both these before others duplicated it lends credibility doesn't it? Did any on the council talk to those who witnessed him play personally or see some of his taped runs?

Calling someone a liar is serious.

Saltkillzsnails

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Shadow as far as the Aztec strat goes thats simply not true. For one it was an ongoing discussion about trying to get the glass open. No one figured out a way until Boss showed up but it was something that many tried to figure out

And lets not also forget that Steven didnt post the record or even discuss that he figured out a way until he bragged and someone else posted that he got 1:31. Then the I wont post it until someone does it bullcrap.

If theres one thing thats possible its that steven did the same glass strat we all know and then claimed it was one guard instead of two by mistake or some nonsense then when boss showed up he couldnt correct himself or it would look like he was just saying it to be first so he lied the whole time. I dont believe this is the case at all but could see something like that happen

Additionally just because someone is good at the game it doesnt prove they arent lying/cheating. Look at Henning he definitely was skilled and considered highly credible but cheated on a large portion of his page.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 07:50:16 pm by Saltkillzsnails »

mw

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Not that this will have any affect on this decision but I witnessed the 17 Archives UWR when he got it at my house.

No one is claiming that SZ was completely unskilled at the game or that he never got any real UWRs. As was stated by Karl, Henning was undoubtedly an amazingly skilled player who chose to lie and splice videos anyway because he felt he could get away with it. The council determined that Steven's track record was bad enough to cast doubt over all of his times, and he should be removed entirely.

He was also, as far as I know, the first to come up with the grenade strategy on Runway and quite likely the first to get the glass open on Aztec. Talking about both these before others duplicated it lends credibility doesn't it? Did any on the council talk to those who witnessed him play personally or see some of his taped runs?

I think it's a bit naive to still believe that he actually ever got the Aztec glass opened using his strategy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he claimed 1:31 with a strat that he refused to reveal, and then only after Boss discovered the glass open did Steven claim his own glass open strategy, and even with that 1:31 would have been an incredible record for the time. Steven's claimed method for the glass open has been categorically debunked many times over the last 15 years, and given every single thing we know about the game's code is impossible. Never has anyone been able to come close to success with the single guard method. And now, while trying to provide "proof" of his strategy working, Steven uploads a video of himself using a no-clip gameshark code (which has been thoroughly proven to be the case), and for what reason? Seems strange to be monkeying around with a gameshark if he was already too busy to play Aztec for the "10 hours" the strategy requires of him.

For the questions about "credibility" and witnessing him play, see my response to Eise. To the final question, I have personally watched every bit of recorded gameplay from Steven, and actually compiled it into a Youtube playlist, even uploading extra footage captured by Axel Z for anyone who wants to watch. There is no doubt that Steven was very talented, especially in Star Fox 64, and was probably a very good GE player for the time. Again, Steven has been proven, and I don't use that lightly, to be a liar, and doesn't deserve a place on the rankings in my opinion.
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Wuldntuliktono

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So since his times were removed does his original times from 98 not cpunt? So does that mean like sterling or somebody else from that time with the next fastest record just gain a bunch of uwr? Just curious bc looking back at the records from 7/26/98 his times are still listed.

stefankok

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@Shadow There's still some more people who i did not contact yet. Matthijs ten Ham for one seems reachable. He's a proof mod back then that often saw Steven play, vouched for him and said he saw the 1:31 and 2:03 Aztec endscreens (not that that's going to help the cause for these times)

Another guy who might be worth talking to is a dutch karter who was fairly high level back in the day named Lars Nouwen(also seems reachable) was friends with Steven and saw him play. He once spend an entire day karting with him in which Steven played a lot of Luigi Raceway and Sherbet Land. After that, Steven kept playing kart some more until he got his alleged 1'58"14 LR 3lap. Lars then posted it on the forums and vouched for his record, saying that he saw him drive crazy splits that matched up with the ones in the 1'58"14. This is interesting, because Lars was a proven/reliable guy, this is either an indicator of the run being true or he decided to support Steven's cheating for some reason.

Michael Liem i already mentioned before, he played a lot with Steven and knew him for a long time. I tried to find him but couldn't anywhere.

The alleged one guard strat was also already posted on the forums months before Boss was around. Problem is of course that he never got it on vid and nobody has ever managed to duplicate it, whether it's emulator or console. The strat(if it works) would be several seconds faster than the currently used WR strat, so a 1:31 might not have been so strong necessarily.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 08:12:20 pm by stefankok »

Saltkillzsnails

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Many people vouched for Henning, some of the greatest Goldeneye players put there refused to believe he cheated. Vouching for someone means nothing if you didnt see the actual run

Grav

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I will literally never understand people who argue a player's skill level being high is somehow evidence in itself that they didn't or wouldn't cheat, when 99% of caught cheaters in speedrunning as a whole are skilled/top players.

Icy

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Being highly skilled and lying/cheating are not mutually exclusive.

stefankok

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I'm not saying he didn't cheat, to be clear. I'm just saying that it might be worth talking to the people that vouched for him to get there 2 cents.

I agree with him not being on the rankings, i don't have any issue with that.

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I dont have a problem with any of his proven times being on the ranks. And I dont have a problem with any future proven times being on the ranks. Hell, Ill even give him back his aztec times if he demonstrates on video the impossible strat he described previously.

This is another case where he had lied too many times for any unproven times to remain.
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Shadow

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Being highly skilled and lying/cheating are not mutually exclusive.
I will literally never understand people who argue a player's skill level being high is somehow evidence in itself that they didn't or wouldn't cheat, when 99% of caught cheaters in speedrunning as a whole are skilled/top players.

C'mon people. I'm not saying that. But when Lark says "It's clear he's just a liar" or Karl says "he had lied too many times", that is not an objectively true statement. Maybe they were exaggerating but when I post evidence to the contrary, in no way do I imply that a good player cannot be a liar. There are so many inferences going on in this thread it's silly. My job as an engineer/researcher requires me to treat every assumption with skepticism and question every bias. That does not mean that when I question an assumption, I am making the opposite. I am merely trying to give alternative possibilities/evidence.

And what Eise said also confirms that Karl's statement for Zwartjes never providing proof for any PB is just plain false.

Thanks Dugg. I feel like people are basing their decision off of 5% of the surviving data and it would be nice to collect some more points.

Also, for those interested, this old thread on the Aztec trick is worth a re-read.
https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=8497.msg112336

SGT RAGEQUIT

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mate not for nothing, but like 80% of the elite are programmers or engineers too, don't come in here with the bullshit 'muh analysis'
kind of hard to defend the dude that comes in, can't give any proof of something that's been proven impossible (or at least highly implausible), then resorts to ad-hominem when called out on it - but by god, some of you are really trying

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I dont exaggerate. It is just that you dont believe Henrik when he says the strategy is impossible. You are willing to believe a claim without proof, but unwilling to believe a claim with mountains of evidence and something that can be proven.

Also anecdotel evidence is not proof last time I checked.

Now you’re claiming that we are wrong even though all the evidence matches what we say.

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Shadow

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I dont exaggerate. It is just that you dont believe Henrik when he says the strategy is impossible. You are willing to believe a claim without proof, but unwilling to believe a claim with mountains of evidence and something that can be proven.

Also anecdotel evidence is not proof last time I checked.

A record witnessed by other Eliters was definitely considered proof at the time, as you very well know.

I am not willing to believe a claim without proof. But I am certainly unwilling to disbelieve it with the evidence that has been presented so far. There is a difference, no matter how much you try to put me into a specific box. There has been too little objective presentation of the evidence, it has been fraught with bias. And I'm not the only one who sees this, I've had multiple PMs from people who agree and think this was premature. But speaking up isn't well-received for the most part.

I believe Henrik, insofar as Henrik's understanding of Steven's strat is accurate. Do you allow that Henrik could be wrong, or might not understand the strat simply because it hasn't been explained well enough? He could be 100% confident and yet there is a <1 chance he is infallible...I hesitate to question it but it's a piece of evidence that plays largely in this.

Tyler, I make no claim to brilliant analysis or saying I'm better, merely informing why I ask the things I do, which few seem to get, because I'm constantly accused of positions I don't hold. I am not defending Zwartjes, I am questioning the evidence leading to the verdict. So many of you have convinced yourselves of one option that you can't see any other. And it may be the right verdict! Keep that in mind! I believe it may be the right verdict!

Wuldntuliktono

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Whether it was the right decision or not he asked for his times to be removed from the rankings anyways which is within his right so if that's what he wanted anyways why not honor the request?

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A witnessed time was never proof. Witnessed times were accepted without proof, they werent proven.

Im going to drop this now. What you say ends up being nonsense because you dont understand how the rankings work on a fundamental level. You say you arent arguing the opposite, but arguing that a time should be on the ranks without evidence is literally arguing that you believe the time happened. Unproven times remain on the ranks because we believe they happened, not because we cant prove they didnt happen.

Im glad this ancient, antiquited way of thinking died out.
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Luke

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Out of all the legendary old school gamers notorious for not recording and properly proving their greatest accomplishments, SZ stands out as having close to 0 tangible evidence of ever having played video games at all.

LAS

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AZ

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Zwartjes' proven times from 1998 should stay in my opinion, possibly Archives 17 too. While 17 wasn't proven, it was witnessed by none other than Eise Smit. Zwartjes should be credited for being one of the earliest speedrunners GE had. Again, it's really sad to see his proven times go.

I fail to see what's wrong with his proven times, especially since they were done long before Steven's 1:31 claim on Aztec. Why for instance is it more justified to remove all Zwartjes' times - especially his provens - but not backroll others that never had proof in the first place? Greneby was mentioned earlier, a banned PD player, and his Train 00A 2:13 was a huge deal (4 sec untied) back then and was never proven either. I could list more examples. Other liars/players that failed to provide proof in the past such as Snowblind and Shock and Carnski and Shade were either banned from a league or had all their times backrolled to their proven times - all wise and fair decisions. And if Zwartjes has been compulsively lying about times he did not provide proof for, he should be treated and punished the same way other cheaters were before him. That is, as the community at large can't trust him, all his times must be proven by video and verified by mods before going up on the ranks.

I am of the opinion that his proven times should be ranked.

Wyst3r

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I never said the strat was impossible, only that it would be completely unrelated to current strats. With that said though, I can't say that unicorns don't exist either, but does that mean we should believe in them? Of course not. Why? Because no one has ever seen one or proven that one exists. The same argument can be applied in this case. Boss said it well in Discord:

"I find it insane that not a single person in the last 16 years has pulled it off"

That was the main argument when this all started and remains so now. Since then we've seen a video of Steven attempting the strat, which for the first time showed that he did nothing out of the ordinary. Are we supposed to keep waiting forever for some evidence of this strat working or is 16 years enough?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 05:19:16 am by Wyst3r »

Jimbo

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Let's put up Henning's proven times too, same logic. Didn't he also get Caverns 00A 1:33 at the Sweden meet right in front of Clemens?

Luke

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^ Live Splice  (they were all* out eating meatballs)

 *when the splice took place

**when heNning swapped the VHS cables

***when the tape got put in a switched on!
LAS

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Botched Movie Quotes

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Quote
Edit: I tried forcing the sidestep/sidehop/running sideways animations and as I suspected, the game checks for obstacles (such as the glass door) and will always chose a direction that leads away from it. So as long as the guard is close enough to the glass, he won't step/hop/run towards it.

This is your quote Henrik. Steven's strat relied on the guard running to the glass door and opening it (once you shoot near the guard). You've stated here that the game will never allow this to happen due to the way the game checks for obstacles.

Ergo, the strat is impossible.

Quote
Just to clarify, it's impossible according to our current understanding of how glass openings work.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 08:20:05 am by Botched Movie Quotes »
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Botched Movie Quotes

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I need to play 10 hours straight to get something decent to work. My skilllevel dropped, the desire to play 10 hours straight

@stefankok

Steven is claiming he needs to play 10 hours 'straight' to get his strat to work. It's a fake excuse as to why he can't replicate it. I was pointing out that in the past he got it to work in 1 hour. There is no mechanical or logical reason why he would need to play '10 hours straight' in order to replicate his proposed strategy. Also his 'skill level' has nothing to do with anything. You don't need any skill to get the glass opening strategy to work. You can use any cheat you want to get into position and get the set up you want. All he needs to do is a proof of concept for the strat he laid out previously.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 09:25:22 am by Botched Movie Quotes »
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404

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Whether it was the right decision or not he asked for his times to be removed from the rankings anyways which is within his right so if that's what he wanted anyways why not honor the request?

A rule was established that forbids ragequits because a couple happened in the past and fucked up the rankings. The proof policy  says "Any video submitted will remain on the rankings permanently, regardless of removal by the player", but this addresses proven times. An unproven and unreliable ancient fellow is a special case I guess.

Shadow

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A witnessed time was never proof. Witnessed times were accepted without proof, they werent proven.

"Never" is such a strong word. Allow me to introduce you to what Ancient Karl said on the matter, likely shortly before getting a capture card.   :kappa:

https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=6902.msg30792#msg30792
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I've proved my skill over at michael coes house and showed him my times that's proof enough.

https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=7234.msg13926#msg13926
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Just as long as someone else from the Elite can verify your times that is considered proof enough. It would be stupid if you had to put it on the net as not every has a capture card.

Shadow

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For history's sake, this is what Disco said Zwartjes told him about the strat:

"Zwartjes's strat was even weirder:

same first two rooms, kill everyone in black room.  lean up against the glass facing the mainframe.  position yourself on the glass in between two sheets of glass (the two lines running up and down that you can clearly see).  use the line on the right when you enter the room.  now, shoot to activate the guard behind the mainframe while turning to face the glass. instantly leave and run to the console place.  this should activate the guard to run up the line going up and down on the glass. he should also be facing it.  now pop out and shoot a bunch of bullets above his head.  since he's in one of two (supposed) places that he can open the window, he we'll have been activated to do so in craziness.  That's his supposed strat.  He told it to me."

https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=8378.msg133027#msg133027

And another with Steven's own earlier description:

"people were asking why u should keep moving after u have shot next to the guard to attract him.
u have to know the game a bit more for that.
here is how the game works.
U should near guard he will run to u.
now he doesn't see u so he runs to spot where u last shot (this is how we first completed runway LTK without getting hit!!!).
Now u hide so guard goes to spot where u last shot.
but guard is clever...if u are a bit near him and u are standing still...his radar tells him where u are. But if u keep moving (without letting him see u) his radar will fail and he will walk to the spoty where u last shot.
Now peek out and shoot above his head. When he is positioned in the right place he will open glassdoor then turn around and shoot u."

https://forums.the-elite.net/index.php?topic=8497.msg117083#msg117083
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 09:37:02 am by Shadow »

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Removing post here because it is not worth it. Reasonable people see this situation for what it is.

Not going to get sucked in trying to move an immovable object.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 10:03:45 am by Botched Movie Quotes »
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Shadow

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Stunned that you think that's even a reasonable explanation.

A witnessed run was "never proof" but was "proof enough"? Mkay. Right. Whatever, I'm content with the admission that witnessed times were considered "proof enough" at the time, which was my original point so what's yours?

Also, I'm trying hard to not join you in the ad hominems and insults, but boy is it difficult to resist.

AZ

  • Posts: 5796
    • AxZ
    • 2015CommunityContributor
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The difference between Henning's Cav 00A 1:33 and Zwartjes' proven records from 1998 is that Henning did all the splicing before he got/claimed Cav 1:33 on a meeting (and probably after the meeting too). I'm not even fighting for Archives 17 to be up since it has no video. However, having Zwartjes' proven times up vs Henning's "proven" times up is not the same logic and I'm sorry that my arguments get twisted and deliberately misinterpreted and that you choose to draw the wrong conclusions from fair, reasonable and objective standpoints/questions. Henning, for instance, was never banned from PD despite him doing much worse things than Zwartjes i.e. faking videos. I'm asking why Zwartjes' proven times also were removed? It even contradicts the policy. Shouldn't he be treated like all the other cheaters before him?

Shadow

  • Posts: 1232
  • The American Shadow
    • GE
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Henrik, Stefan, Grav, Eise, Dugg, Axel, thanks for trying to add perspectives to the discussion. More support for a specific decision and more discussion about alternatives is always a good thing and I appreciate your efforts and patience, particularly toward me.

My mind is not made up, so being called unreasonable and immovable seems strange to me. Stubborn, yes, but it seems like it would be the other way around.

Despite all the heat without light, more clarification has been gained around the situation, misinformation and misunderstanding has been corrected, and exaggerations have been exposed. That's progress! I don't think everyone chiming in fully understands how the Elite operated back in those days, what proof existed, nor what Steven was like (for better or worse)  so hopefully some of that will fall out in the wash. I do hope more evidence comes out one way or the other, because like Axel, I have major concerns with this situation. One of which is that the Council has no repercussions for a false negative---there's little to no skin in the game; and the possibility that valid and crucial history could be lost doesn't seem to weigh as heavily as some others (me included) think it should.

I just wish other alternatives, like a filter for vetted rankings, even enabled by default, could be explored rather than going down this road we keep going down. Peace, and I hope that fruitful discussion continues.

Botched Movie Quotes

  • Posts: 4422
  • Frankly, my dear, I don't care
    • Karl
    • GE
    • PD
    • twitch
The difference between Henning's Cav 00A 1:33 and Zwartjes' proven records from 1998 is that Henning did all the splicing before he got/claimed Cav 1:33 on a meeting (and probably after the meeting too). I'm not even fighting for Archives 17 to be up since it has no video. However, having Zwartjes' proven times up vs Henning's "proven" times up is not the same logic and I'm sorry that my arguments get twisted and deliberately misinterpreted and that you choose to draw the wrong conclusions from fair, reasonable and objective standpoints/questions. Henning, for instance, was never banned from PD despite him doing much worse things than Zwartjes i.e. faking videos. I'm asking why Zwartjes' proven times also were removed? It even contradicts the policy. Shouldn't he be treated like all the other cheaters before him?

Steven had no linked videos on his page or his PR history, so there was no proven times to backroll to. I don't think Steven is 'banned' and I don't think there would be a problem with any proven times being on the ranks. I will raise with the council to try to get this to happen.
*Creator of 'waiting half a sec more cutscene' on b2 agent*
*Creator of 'bounce boost' on streets agent*
*Creator of 'strafe change laser skip' on inves*

Wyst3r

  • Posts: 4164
  • Train Strat Master
    • Henrik
    • GE
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Quote
Edit: I tried forcing the sidestep/sidehop/running sideways animations and as I suspected, the game checks for obstacles (such as the glass door) and will always chose a direction that leads away from it. So as long as the guard is close enough to the glass, he won't step/hop/run towards it.

This is your quote Henrik. Steven's strat relied on the guard running to the glass door and opening it (once you shoot near the guard). You've stated here that the game will never allow this to happen due to the way the game checks for obstacles.

Ergo, the strat is impossible.

Quote
Just to clarify, it's impossible according to our current understanding of how glass openings work.

Yeah my point was simply that my tests don't exclude all conceivable ways the glass could open, only those based on those specific random animations. He can for example turn around in a half circle before any animation (and for which there's no obstacle check), which I did test alot without success but cant prove is impossible to get a glass opening with. And the second quote is what I tried to reiterate in my last post ("our current understanding" being a 2-guard strat which requires an obstacle, i.e. a 1-guard strat would be a separate category with a completely different theory/understanding).
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 12:22:44 pm by Wyst3r »

Saltkillzsnails

  • Posts: 33
Henrik, say it didn't have to do with the  animations or whatever Steven described is there any other circumstance you could imagine that would allow a single guard to open the door? Say with a cheatcode enabled even?


Time was untied when set.

  • Posts: 5268
  • Dat clutchness
    • Clemens
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Henning 133 was when we were all eating in the kitchen oddly enough. So none of us saw it live.
He did apparently get a cradle 34 in front if Axel  at an earlier meet though
teh peoples champ

Wuldntuliktono

  • Posts: 97
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You can easily get the door open with 1 guard and invisibility on just by shooting the glass while standing next to it if a guard alreasy detects you but this is completely useless without invis.

Wyst3r

  • Posts: 4164
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Invis is the same thing as a 2 guard strat except Bond acts as the second guard. The only way I've seen 1 guard open it was with hacking the guards target position to be inside the glass.

Whiteted

  • Posts: 126
  • AF1 51 or bust
    • GE
    • PD
Shadow's comments throughout this thread are right on the money. Particularly I'd agree wholeheartedly with

Quote
I am not defending Zwartjes, I am questioning the evidence leading to the verdict. So many of you have convinced yourselves of one option that you can't see any other. And it may be the right verdict! Keep that in mind! I believe it may be the right verdict!


As a new player (I just unlocked Aztec on my personal file on my cart yesterday :smirk: :v ) I'm not overly interested in whether SZ is a cheater or not, but I am interested in the (potential) strat.

I'd like to make it clear that the game mechanics at a low level are not very well understood, i.e. how guards circle around objects / other guards, how pausing / large lag affects guards, swiss' train clip etc. (JORIS's obscure happening particularly interests me). Indeed even the real cause of lag & lookdown is not truely understood (though Henrik's detailed investigations are probably sufficient for all speedrunning purposes). 'We' have very little actual source code of the game available, though the structure of the ROM and location of this source code seems to be really well understood which is pretty encouraging.

I personally think the strat* exists, atleast in TAS (with experience comes qualifiers), independent of whether SZ did it or not.. though it's probably not got a lot on the crouch strat. I reject all the "someone would have done it by now if it was possible"-esque arguments. GE's subtleties need to be understood before they can be used: Imagine trying to get through the bars of frigate without causing lag.

* by 'the strat' I mean something along the lines of
get 1 guard by the glass + [redacted] => glass opens, where redacted involves shooting, like SZ's description here
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 04:02:37 pm by Whiteted »

AZ

  • Posts: 5796
    • AxZ
    • 2015CommunityContributor
    • 2017SilverStar
If memory serves right (it's been over 10 years since the meet), me and Patrik were in the same room the moment Henning got Cradle 34. We were all playing simultaneously. The other guys were in the same basement but doing other stuff. I think I missed the first part of the run but I remember seeing the ending with Trev kill and all and also of course the end screen. The other runs he got was Bunker 2 24 and Runway 38. Bunker 2 24 was achieved in front of Axel A and ShadowZero I believe, perhaps Illu saw it too. This is all irrelevant recollections though.

Saltkillzsnails

  • Posts: 33
@Whiteded

Do you think you could replicate the strategy even in TAS? If so how?

It seems strange that he was able to replicate it regularly but never in front of anyone or on video. The excuses provided in this thread don't really make sense. No one asked for a world record time they asked for a demonstration. If he has the knowledge to do it then how quickly it happens is  irrelevant yet that didn't happen. We're getting different strategies and gameshark videos. Doesn't give anyone a lot of confidence. When questioned he goes on the offensive, I could care less one way or another but the behavior seems to be spot on with someone who lies. He could make a fool of half of the people here by making a legit video of the strategy and everyone would give him props but instead we get the I dont have time excuse and I dont need to prove anything which is funnily enough the very thing he went through all of this trouble for in the first place

Botched Movie Quotes

  • Posts: 4422
  • Frankly, my dear, I don't care
    • Karl
    • GE
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    • twitch
I'm surprised no one has pointed this out yet but Steven's strat is actually considerably slower than the current 2 guard strat.

The main time loss happens because he has to pause after the glass opens, instead of pausing while waiting for the guards to open it. So he immediately loses 4 seconds because of this.

Compared with the current 2 guard strat he closes the mainframe before going to the glass about 3 seconds faster. When he gets to the glass he has to aim and shoot to alert this guard. He loses time here not only because he has to aim for the shoot but also because the animations using the 2 guard strategy finish quite a bit earlier than you can achieve by getting to the glass and shooting (hopefully that makes sense). This means with the 2 guard strat the guards are running into position earlier (and you spend less time at the glass). Approximate time loss 2 seconds?

The following bit is based on optimal timing, which would be extremely difficult to achieve. With the current strat the guards open the glass when they get into position so there is no timing involved. But with Steven's strat you have to start the next process as soon as the guard gets into position or you're bleeding time. Any hesitation will be absolute time loss. Now, once the guard gets into position he has to move from his current location (in the corner) to where he can shoot near the guard, another 1 second lost + time to aim and shoot. Once he has shot he then has to pause which costs 4 seconds. You'll notice in the demonstration video before pausing steven ducks back behind the wall, this is because if you pause immediately after shooting the guard will hammer you. So there is extra time lost here before pausing.

Please correct me if you have more concrete calculations but it seems like Steven's strategy is at theoretical best at least 5 seconds slower than the 2 guards strategy. That's if you use TAS like timing, aiming, and execution. Further more, the end strategies used at the time were sub optimal so he would have bled some time there.

This makes 1:31 far better than the 1:26 Clemens achieved in 2010. Please correct me if I missed something.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 02:07:20 am by Botched Movie Quotes »
*Creator of 'waiting half a sec more cutscene' on b2 agent*
*Creator of 'bounce boost' on streets agent*
*Creator of 'strafe change laser skip' on inves*

Wyst3r

  • Posts: 4164
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Good point ^^

I was thinking about the late pause myself, it's a big factor since there would've been no quickpauses involved, so there's definitely a chance it'd end up much slower. If there was a way to hack a ROM to get the glass opened then maybe we could test it and see how difficult 1:31 would've been (though that could also be misleading since we'd likely gain time everywhere from better movement).

Quote
Compared with the current 2 guard strat he closes the mainframe before going to the glass about 3 seconds faster.

Did he mention if he closed it himself or if it was already closed?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 03:26:16 am by Wyst3r »

Botched Movie Quotes

  • Posts: 4422
  • Frankly, my dear, I don't care
    • Karl
    • GE
    • PD
    • twitch
The strategy he described previously was showing himself to that guard (instead of shooting through the closed mainframe) which required the mainframe to be open. This old strat was even slower than the new one he posted in the recent vid (shooting through mainframe).

I used the vid he posted of his strat...

*Creator of 'waiting half a sec more cutscene' on b2 agent*
*Creator of 'bounce boost' on streets agent*
*Creator of 'strafe change laser skip' on inves*