Author Topic: The Steven Zwartjes Saga Continues - Possible Aztec Strat Vid Coming Soon?!?  (Read 20248 times)

AZ

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Steven had no linked videos on his page or his PR history, so there was no proven times to backroll to. I don't think Steven is 'banned' and I don't think there would be a problem with any proven times being on the ranks. I will raise with the council to try to get this to happen.

Thanks Karl.

I suggest the following:

- Add Zwartjes' proven times to the rankings (including Facility 00A 5:51 :kappa:)
- Credit Zwartjes for the proven 1998 records on the WR database. This only comes down to one: Facility A 0:55.
- Grant him the WR Holder and Above the Rest-achievement. Possibly grant him the Top 100, Top 50, Top 25-achievements too, maybe Top 10 as well (since no one but him and a few others had joined/played competitively in 1998), but deciding what achievements he should be granted is indeed arbitrary and a very delicate matter.

Luke

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where can i buy the rights to this script to turn it into a TV show
LAS

#TeamLevelRotation

Guado

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This is definitely going too far. Threatening to make a Todd Rogers video of SZ really amounts to slander (or sensationalism). You guys and your mob mentality are being absolutely horrible to Zwartjes.

Someone's gotta speak up. I'm taking one for the team. Come at me, not SZ.
90+ hrs into XC2 NG+, going for 100%. Be back when I get bored.

Fishslice

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I completely agree.

This horrible, toxic little community is the reason I gave up playing this game. I really don't get why Goose has gone after SZ in quite this fashion but he's really shown himself up as a petty little prick. He's also tried to spread this slanderous nonsense to the MK boards, although thankfully most of them have the sense to ignore him.

I'm done with this board now, I just wanted to say how disgusted I am with what this place has become in the last few years. So disappointing.

Wyst3r

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This is definitely going too far. Threatening to make a Todd Rogers video of SZ really amounts to slander (or sensationalism). You guys and your mob mentality are being absolutely horrible to Zwartjes.

Out of curiosity, do you think Apollo Legend's videos on Todd Rodgers/Billy Mitchell went too far and if not, why? Where exactly do you draw the line? Also Goose frequently talks about cheaters in speedrunning, e.g. Henning and most recently Anti in GTA, do you disagree with that as well?


Shadow

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Did he mention if he closed it himself or if it was already closed?

According to Disco's description of what Zwartjes told him (quoted above), it sounds like it was already closed to me.

Botched Movie Quotes

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Quote
You are luring the wrong guy  Wink
u have to lure the one that is standing next to the gate that is opening and closing not the one in the back.
when u lure him closing the gate right after that he should be slow and open it some later.
at that time u are already standing next to the glass that has to open. SHoot some bullets now and hide in the place behind the wall near the mainframe.
Now he has to open the door for you.
chances are so small he is doing that because sometimes he even comes running straight to you
but it is possible after u have tried 10 hours u know it is

Quote
All guys gone except the one behind the mainframe door.strafe to him.show yourself and by doing this let the door rise.he should be slow and open it some later again.back up and get in the place next to the glassdoor.shoot a few bullets on the door where guy comes out. (dont hit him  Wink)
the bullets make an indication for the computer to the place u have been the last (while shooting).
the place u shoot last is the place where the enemy will try to find u IF he did not have eye contact with u and follows the noise.

(I made loads of advantage of this in the early LTK days  Smiley like runway the guys keep appearing if u kill them, the trick is to lure them with a shot and then hide.
the guard will walk to the place u took your shot.of course u where shooting near a wall so the guy stands there stupidly with his face towards the wall  Grin) Do this with all guards and u have a safe walk to the plane Smiley)

Anyways back to Aztec:
the moment the door is about to go down (this is about right after u took your shot) hide quickly in the spot near the mainframe. the guard walks to the glassdoor and should open it immediately.
this is where it gets fucked up because there is only guard who is willing to do it instead of the 3 guards in the strat u guys all use thus chances are absurdly low for it to happen.but if u have patience it will happen.

Steven made two descriptions of his strategy himself which noted that the mainframe door was open. The second-hand description from Disco does not mention if the door is open or closed at all, and of course, doesn't come from Steven.
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404

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I'm done with this board now, I just wanted to say how disgusted I am with what this place has become in the last few years. So disappointing.

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TheGutterKing

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I completely agree.

This horrible, toxic little community is the reason I gave up playing this game. I really don't get why Goose has gone after SZ in quite this fashion but he's really shown himself up as a petty little prick. He's also tried to spread this slanderous nonsense to the MK boards, although thankfully most of them have the sense to ignore him.

I'm done with this board now, I just wanted to say how disgusted I am with what this place has become in the last few years. So disappointing.
  I been around for a couple years but basically just am a lurker. People always give this community a bad name. One thing people hate here is someone trying to insult their intelligence, and when anyone tries to do that, then they will get backlash from the members here. Alot of newer players take it the wrong way, but you gotta understand these guys have been playing this game for 10-20 years and when someone tries to act like they know it all or trying to pull the wool over their eyes like SZ, it offends them.

Wuldntuliktono

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I completely agree.

This horrible, toxic little community is the reason I gave up playing this game. I really don't get why Goose has gone after SZ in quite this fashion but he's really shown himself up as a petty little prick. He's also tried to spread this slanderous nonsense to the MK boards, although thankfully most of them have the sense to ignore him.

I'm done with this board now, I just wanted to say how disgusted I am with what this place has become in the last few years. So disappointing.
You registered an account 10 minutes before this just to tell us how toxic we are and your done with this community... do you even know the circumstances behind why this strat is so heavily believed to be fake?

Smit

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I completely agree.

This horrible, toxic little community is the reason I gave up playing this game. I really don't get why Goose has gone after SZ in quite this fashion but he's really shown himself up as a petty little prick. He's also tried to spread this slanderous nonsense to the MK boards, although thankfully most of them have the sense to ignore him.

I'm done with this board now, I just wanted to say how disgusted I am with what this place has become in the last few years. So disappointing.
You registered an account 10 minutes before this just to tell us how toxic we are and your done with this community... do you even know the circumstances behind why this strat is so heavily believed to be fake?

Who are you even?

Saltkillzsnails

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What has Steven done in any community that makes people so loyal to him? Im super confused, besides some non proof screenshots of his mario times and ever changing vague strategy descriptions he provides the Goldeneye community Im at a loss for why people believe him.

Shadow

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What has Steven done in any community that makes people so loyal to him? Im super confused, besides some non proof screenshots of his mario times and ever changing vague strategy descriptions he provides the Goldeneye community Im at a loss for why people believe him.

I don't really know you but I suspect you weren't around during that era. It's difficult for people today to realize how small and close-knit the community of gamers was, how difficult it was to provide "proof" and what was accepted. When Wouter became the first (if I recall correctly) to have 60/60 proven records, that was a huge deal, and considered obsessive at the time.

You also likely don't know what it's like to have retired for 15 years, and then to be asked to come back and prove some game you no longer care about :)

I don't know that I'd call it loyalty. The one group thinks "he has behavior similar to a cheater" and the other group thinks "you'd better be awfully sure before you you start to smear someone, particularly someone well-known." Confirmed cheaters, expose away, make videos. But with suspected cheaters, isn't some caution worthwhile? Obviously some are of the opinion that there is enough suspicion, others (like me) are of the opinion that you can't know for sure one way or the other. Without better facts, I'd rather err on the side of caution toward Steven, others would rather err on the side of accuracy of the rankings. Different perspectives.

Botched Movie Quotes

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Just so others are clear, Shadow's posts are full of fake news, bias, and deception.

The strategy put forward by Steven is not possible according to the theory we know, and is not replicable. On top of this, it isn't even fast enough to produce the times he claimed, even using modern technique. This isn't a matter of 'his behaviour is similar to a cheater', please don't be deceived by such a blatant straw man.

On top of the technical data and evidence we can produce, every single other piece of circumstantial evidence also fits the conclusion that Steven is lying. Those stating that there is not sufficient evidence to confirm either way are obviously not rational and are intentionally ignoring the available evidence.

Quote
Quote from: Wyst3r on Today at 03:21:15 AM
Did he mention if he closed it himself or if it was already closed?

According to Disco's description of what Zwartjes told him (quoted above), it sounds like it was already closed to me.

This is a clear case of trying to muddy the waters and shows clear bias. Shadow intentionally ignores the fact that Steven clearly described closing the mainframe door twice, and even posted a video of his strategy where he closes the mainframe. He then claims that a second-hand recounting of the strategy indicates an opposite fact by simple omission.

The people defending Steven react emotionally and ignore every piece of evidence that doesn't fit their narrative. Instead of actually disputing the evidence that the strategy is both not possible and is not quick enough, they distract with straw man arguments and appeals to emotion.
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Saltkillzsnails

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Imo, Besides studying the "evidence" a quick understanding of human behavior, particularly deception, can give you all the red flags you need that Steven is lying. He attempted to gain credibility by agreeing to come back but almost exclusively staying/posting in the Mario community where they know very little of Goldeneye. Makes one video of attempting to do his strategy then some other gameshark video emerges that he claims is some weird thing that happened to him and hes never used a gameshark or the like.

To muddy the waters even further he explains a new strategy he thought of in one sentence then its off to not having the time and nothing to prove. His attempt to silence his doubters failed, I assume he thought just the effort of trying would give him enough clout to make his doubters back off. He was half right some think he's telling the truth while others see through the bullshit as most cheaters have done before.

The excuses don't make any sense not to mention the strategy itself.

Shadow

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Just so others are clear, Shadow's posts are full of fake news, bias, and deception.

Oh....brother. So much for respectful dialogue.

This is a clear case of trying to muddy the waters and shows clear bias. Shadow intentionally ignores the fact that Steven clearly described closing the mainframe door twice, and even posted a video of his strategy where he closes the mainframe. He then claims that a second-hand recounting of the strategy indicates an opposite fact by simple omission.

Wait what? I thought your posts were informative and helpful. Henrik asked a question, I tried to answer with what I'd found, with the caveat that "it sounds like", i.e., I wasn't even certain. You clarified from two other sources. That's good. I didn't deny, or ignore. Why must you constantly impugn motives?

Do you really think I'm ignoring evidence? Really? I'm trying to gather more, one way or another. Every bit is helpful. How many times do I have to say that? I've stated repeatedly that the verdict that Steven is lying may be correct. Sigh.

Botched Movie Quotes

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Yes it seems quite obvious to me you have a motive. Im sorry if i’m wrong but thats how I see it. You actually do ignore the evidence though, what I said wasnt wrong. Steve had described his strategy twice and produced a video, you ignored both and singled out an excerpt from a 3rd party that severely lacked in detail and didnt even mention the required information. I think you are too smart for that to be chalked up to ignorance.

Then you mischaracterised our position. Again, you are too smart for this to be an accident in my opinion. The core of our argument is technical information about the game, and the fact that Steven’s claims are both not possible and too slow. Steven’s behviour is circumstancial and builds on the core argument.

If you disagree you can argue with counter evidence or data. But you provide neither, and instead attempt to pick apart irrelevant details.

Steven has made a claim about the strategy he used. This can, and has been tested rigorously. The tests conclude that the claim made is a false claim. Every other legitimate strategy that has been found has been immediately replicated and confirmed (i.e original glass strat, depot warp, caverns mine throw). Goldeneye isnt quantum physics, if a strat can be replicated it will be easy to do so. The odds become even lower when you factor in that Steven himself cannot replicate it and even if it were possible it is too slow. These details alone give complete justification for labelling Steven a liar. Remember, he claims to have executed the strategy multiple times, but no one else can do so a single time in 16 years or with TAS/save states.

All other evidence regarding his behaviour makes the case even stronger, but isnt even necessary.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 01:10:49 pm by Botched Movie Quotes »
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Shadow

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No, I thought your analysis of the theoretical max using this strategy was great, and just the sort of thing that is needed. But that seems to be new technical information, I hadn't seen it before this morning and can you really fault me for that? Regardless, that's certainly going to be a strong factor in this case.

As to mischaracterizing the position, I apologize. That was not my intention. Your arguments have had much to do with the technical feasibility of the strat itself and I should have said so. On the other hand, I don't feel as though you've yet shown clear understanding of my position and I've felt mischaracterized repeatedly. Regardless, if you look through this thread you'll see lots and lots of posts that state nothing more than the equivalent of "this is clearly behavior indicative of lying". There has been a lot of emphasis upon that by numerous people, some who don't seem to have even bothered to look into the technical details. While you personally do not fall into that position, I think it's safe to say it's playing a very large factor in this discussion and the sides people are taking, and I think you'd agree that it shouldn't be the primary one.

I'm not a very complicated person. I'm not conniving or scheming or trying to spread misinformation, though I admit to being fallible, certainly. I don't have a position other than I think the council's decision was premature, even if it turns out to be the correct one. That your analysis seems to have come out this morning would bear that out. I also feel there is a lot of tribalism going on here but that's a different issue...

Botched Movie Quotes

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To be clear, Steven’s behaviour is not enough to have his times backrolled. This angle was probably pushed too hard.

Anyways. Again im sorry if I had the wrong impression of your motives. However all of your posts are slanted in one direction, and you were arguing points that arent even relevant or have any bearing (i.e that steven claims to have tapes, or that Eise witnessed a time). And this seems to be a distraction from the important details. So i got frustrated at that. And to clarify im not saying nitpicking irrelevant shit is necessarily bad or that i shouldnt be corrected, just that it is annoying if done a lot.

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stefankok

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Worth pointing out that the shooting at the guard while he's at the glass is part of the "backup" strat according to Steven, he claims the guard can also open it immediately once he gets to the glass(he suggests that the success of that is mostly dependent on the relative angle and spot of Bond at the glass while luring iirc). From what i understand, it's also better if the mainframe was already closed at arrival since you don't have to close that manually then. They only way i could see it being real is if the 1:31 and 1:33 on Agent are done without bothering with the backup strat and the 2:03 might be done with it. Not sure though, just guessing there.

Not defending Steven to be clear, only pointing out what i have found while researching and talking with him, i may be wrong on some things. Just keep him removed and if he somehow still manages to provide proof of the impossible strat, more power to him i guess.

I am of the opinion that comparing him with Todd Rogers is a big exaggeration, however. I mean, comparing a guy that has hundreds of scores who are downright technically impossible and/or inhumanly feasible whose 1700+ unproven scores are likely all fabricated with a guy where most of the controversy comes from 2 scores which are almost certainly fake but were still achievable and beaten only a couple of years later just doesn't sit right with me

Steven's proof record for MK64(that has survived at least) is also one of the best in the period he was active (1997 to early 2000) in case anyone didn't know. The only guy from those days who has more proof online than SZ does is Alex Penev. Ironically, those are the only 2 players from then who had times backrolled this year(Penev's mysterious cm flap is even more sketchy than SZ's LR 1'58"14).

For anybody wondering why Steven's reputation is so good, it basically boils down to the fact that people who have seen him play all agree that he's abnormally good at games and has a knack for figuring out unique strats, won a lot of tournaments etc. Feel free to read the mk64 thread for more info. http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1526616780



irrelevant side note: today happens to be the day that Marc Rutzou beat Steven's 1:31 claim 9 years ago apparently lol.

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I feel as though Steven started making false claims in 2001. In 2001 he started making ridiculous claims and they just got more and more ridiculous as time went on.

Now the only claims we could prove are false beyond reasonable doubt are the aztec claims, but there are other really questionable ones before that.

Everything 2000 and before was likely legit.
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Shadow

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Good posts Stefan and Karl. That's the sort of balanced views I was advocating for.

Whiteted

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Restricting myself to the strat, I was imagining that by whatever setup you wouldn't bother waiting the 10s for the guard to stop moving. Indeed if the glass opens when the guard circles around then perhaps it happens when the guard carries on towards Bond's new location, having just arrived near the glass.
If it does require shooting, then there are still quick-pauses to be had while you wait and when you exit the first room. Since any shots nearby would alert the guard anyway, you definitely wouldn't need to wait the 10s.

This would save you some time vs the 2 guard strat, but I still think it's got nothing on the crouch strat.

@salt I certainly don't know how to TAS it right this moment, but even naively I could write a script to just try over and over (slightly different spots), since that's what I did at first when I was seeing if it was possible for the pair of guards to open the door on s1 (being lured to the same spot). That had odds of something like 1 in 50 if I remember correctly.

Wyst3r

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Quote
Worth pointing out that the shooting at the guard while he's at the glass is part of the "backup" strat according to Steven, he claims the guard can also open it immediately once he gets to the glass(he suggests that the success of that is mostly dependent on the relative angle and spot of Bond at the glass while luring iirc). From what i understand, it's also better if the mainframe was already closed at arrival since you don't have to close that manually then. They only way i could see it being real is if the 1:31 and 1:33 on Agent are done without bothering with the backup strat and the 2:03 might be done with it. Not sure though, just guessing there.

Bond makes alot of noise while clearing out the black room, which the lured guard can hear, even if he's not alerted by it. 10 seconds has to pass from the moment he last hears Bond to him getting to the glass, otherwise he'll just keep running, making shooting above his head impossible (at least he wouldn't react to it but rather start shooting at you immediately). So essentially you'd need to wait at the glass for 4-5 seconds before luring the guard.

So I think we can be fairly certain that the backup strat wasn't used for the 1:31.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 02:09:23 pm by Wyst3r »

Wuldntuliktono

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Were quick pauses even known to speed up pauses in the 01 02 era?

Shadow

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Karl, purely for curiosity's sake, do you remember how Steven's 1:31 got on the ranks? Did he post it to his geocities times page or did someone say something like "Steven got 1:31, it needs to be on the ranks"?

I'm only asking because given his rather sporadic forum presence in those days, and typical behavior, it wouldn't surprise me to hear that he made the claim to someone on AIM or something.

Wayback Machine only seems to have kept his page through 2002, the ones after won't display for me.
https://web.archive.org/web/20020222064510/http://www.geocities.com:80/goldensteve2000/

Wyst3r

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Were quick pauses even known to speed up pauses in the 01 02 era?

No.

stefankok

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Karl, purely for curiosity's sake, do you remember how Steven's 1:31 got on the ranks? Did he post it to his geocities times page or did someone say something like "Steven got 1:31, it needs to be on the ranks"?

I'm only asking because given his rather sporadic forum presence in those days, and typical behavior, it wouldn't surprise me to hear that he made the claim to someone on AIM or something.

Wayback Machine only seems to have kept his page through 2002, the ones after won't display for me.
https://web.archive.org/web/20020222064510/http://www.geocities.com:80/goldensteve2000/

As stated in the interview, Steven only had access to the internet at school. He screwed up his studies and had to get a job in a supermarket to pay off his debts to his parents. His parents didn't have an internet connection at home and when he moved out he didn't have a computer. In other words, he didn't have access to the internet for some time. So if i had to guess he probably visited Eise and told it to him personally or through a phone call and mentioned it to him then. I figured somebody else posted it for him when Steven asked it to be posted, because for his LR claim, Lars posted it on the forums and submitted it to the site. But maybe he went to a friend's place to get on the internet and post it himself, not sure which.

Relevant threads regarding his 1'58"14 on LR, in case anybody wants to read them.

Lars first claiming the time for him: http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=MK64&action=display&num=1054048494&start=0#0
A thread started by Zwartjes a couple of days later: http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1054649397
The very long infamous 11 page thread, debating about the time: http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1111070579
A topic by Zwartjes about the mystery boost shortly before MJ beat his LR: http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1120578131

Thiradell

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Comparing it to Todd Rogers is fair and not a big deal. Lots of speedrunners have been found cheating. Acting like a community's toxic because they won't take it on faith for something like this is pretty silly. Nobody's ever gotten his (provably impossible?) strat to work and it's not on video; it's not the skeptics at fault here.

Zwartjes has done absolutely zero to help himself throughout these events, pretty much just has Shadow's remarkable stubbornness for support. I understand not wanting to kick a guy off the ranks, but it's probably a reasonable penalty for something like this. Zwartjes' times have all been eclipsed by the modern era anyway, just put an asterisk next to his stuff for the GEWR database if you want



nothin' moves me more than a groove that soothes me
nothin' soothes me more than a groove that boosts me
nothin' boosts me more, or suits me beautifully
there's nothin' you can do to me; stab me, shoot me

TheFlash

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just put an asterisk next to his stuff for the GEWR database if you want

You could just put an asterisk next to everything in the WR database that doesn't have acceptable video proof, then you can keep both versions at once rather than making exceptions for one specific player.

Thiradell

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nothin' moves me more than a groove that soothes me
nothin' soothes me more than a groove that boosts me
nothin' boosts me more, or suits me beautifully
there's nothin' you can do to me; stab me, shoot me

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I don't even believe these claims that Steven was "abnormally good at games."

Think about how many guys growing up thought they were "the best in the neighborhood at Mario Kart!" and you'd hear their buddies or brothers rave on about how good they were... then you'd play them and absolutely smoke them.  Testimony of "someone being good at a game" is extremely unreliable.

Not only that, but the people who were actually "good at games" when they were younger, did come back and were still... get this... good at games!  Karl Jobst, Randy Buikema, Shawn Johnson... they were all immediately still good at Goldeneye upon their returns.  None of them required this "40 hours of playing Aztec to get good enough to even demonstrate the strategy I used."  Good players are always good; end of story.  This is just another part of the SZ "legend" that fails to add up when thought about rationally.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 06:17:37 am by The man who trolled and lost everything »
~ S T A Y ❄ T R U E ~   |   ~ S T A Y ❄ B L E S S E D ~   |   Verax Maneret

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For anyone concerned about me "destroying SZ's life" by "unfairly making a sensationalist video about him," I think you can look at my body of work, in how I've treated other, similarly sensitive topics (Chuya's AS 206, Anti cheating in GTA, LeeSDA's Yoshi fakes, 5 Speedrunners with No Proof, etc) and reason that I always make these videos  tastefully, while respecting the subject of the video.

You are the one guilty of sensationalism if you're trying to sound the alarm that I'm going to completely destroy SZ's life, get him fired from work, divorced, and have his wife take custody of his kids.  Maybe you should try making a video... "EVIL VILLAIN speedrunning "historian" attempts to DESTROY LIFE of INNOCENT FAMILY MAN!!" despite it being apparent that I've never come close to doing that, nor would I ever dream of doing such.  I will not touch any sensitive piece of information that would implicate SZ's personal life in any way, shape or form.

Aztec 1:31 is the most infamous claim of a record in Goldeneye history, and as someone who is making videos detailing the history of Goldeneye & the-elite, it would be absurd for me to avoid such a topic just because a handful of people are scared of what I might have to say.  Karl will be heavily collaborating on this with me and I'm actually really excited about it because it has potential to be some of my best work, which I think the vast majority of people here will thoroughly enjoy.
~ S T A Y ❄ T R U E ~   |   ~ S T A Y ❄ B L E S S E D ~   |   Verax Maneret

Time was untied when set.

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  • Dat clutchness
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Keen af
teh peoples champ

Hypnotoad

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I always make these videos  tastefully, while respecting the subject of the video.

Even your ones about Rutzou?

Shadow

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Zwartjes has done absolutely zero to help himself throughout these events, pretty much just has Shadow's remarkable stubbornness for support.

Well, it's nice to be appreciated, but I can't take sole credit for being remarkably stubborn, some others have certainly contributed too :)

In all seriousness, I don't have a personal stake in Steven Zwartjes or his reputation. But if leaving a suspected cheater on the ranks would be a false negative, then I think at least some consideration should be given to a false positive (removing a valid player). As has now been done, hopefully. Neither is ideal.

I don't think anyone is saying you would destroy Steven's personal life, Goose. But it could contribute significantly to destroying his gaming legacy. My personal feeling is that without absolute proof, and with the risk of making a mistake, it would be best to let it lie. But that's your call of course. I see little positive to gain from the exposure but will leave it at that.

Guado

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Agreed with Shadow. That's more the point I wanted to make a few days ago (haven't had a chance to catch up on my passionate message I last posted), but my rhetoric and temper aren't in good balance. I'm fine with Steven leaving if he wants (I did always want proof policies enforced even in grandfathered cases.); however, I'm still against closing the door on him in disgust. I do think a quality video could be made of this saga; Goose builds the necessary facts, thoroughly researches his topics with archived webpages and anecdotal evidence, and presents his information in a well-structured manner. My concern is more in the outside viewers with little knowledge who could in turn destroy Zwartjes' legacy (using Shadow's term here but I believe it fits best).
90+ hrs into XC2 NG+, going for 100%. Be back when I get bored.

Luke

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If Zwartjes never actually did any of what he claimed, then does he even deserve a legacy?
LAS

#TeamLevelRotation

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I made one video about Rutzou in a negative light - the "Top 5 Most Stunning Instances of Degeneracy" video.  One.  It was also the very first YouTube video I made from a "content building" perspective, back in February 2017.  I made that video with the intention of it being seen by a few hundred people, mostly eliters, and us all getting an insider-joke type kick out of it.  I had no idea when I made that video what my channel would become.

I have since been contemplating ideas for a video where I present Marc as someone who has redeemed himself... "The Redemption of Rutzou: How he went from legend to degenerate and back"... talking about his growth & change over the past two years.  I will get to this someday.

But yes, thank you Hypnotoad for pointing out the one exception to my general tastefulness and respectfulness in my work, as exactly that, an exception.
~ S T A Y ❄ T R U E ~   |   ~ S T A Y ❄ B L E S S E D ~   |   Verax Maneret

Blue Khakis

  • Posts: 60
Shadow, the problem with needing definitive proof is that you cannot prove a negative. Henning originally claimed that he didn't cheat and that there must just be SOME non-specific peculiar reason in the game's code that explained the different weapon in the cutscene. Since that's a claim that is pretty much impossible to falsify should he have been believed?

Grav

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Yes, there is a massive unfalsifiability problem in speedrunning. It's literally impossible to solve.

You have 2 options:

1. Allow all times under all circumstances as long as they aren't ever proven 100% to be fake. Someone could join the rankings and post 120 WRs at once and you have to let it stay no matter how much it pisses everyone off.
2. Remove times that you have enough evidence, circumstantial or not, to believe likely isn't real for the sake of community health and activity (the basis by which all major decisions should be made)

There really isn't another way to go about it. Yes, the fate of the-elite is not rested upon whether SZ times or any one person's times being removed. The greater outcome in these actions are establishing the standards with which future decisions can be informed by, which then gives players a clearer picture of what is likely to be allowed and not allowed. This specific case is a bit unique in that he never had proof to begin with, so it is not even setting any new scary precedent for modern players to worry about.

Ray Ruane

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Worth noting as well that Goose painted Marc in a very positive light in the Train Agent Speedlore video and has also spoken positively abouf Steven in the past. Steven has had 15 years to either prove that his Aztec Agent strategy works or admit that he lied about the whole thing and hasn't done either. He is a grown man now. If his skin is so thin that he can't mentally handle one YouTube video saying that he lied about a video-game strategy 15 years ago then he needs to take a good long look at himself in the mirror.

Klewer

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As a newer member to the community, it's great to see the passion everyone has on both sides of the argument but it's important for everyone to keep it a bit more civil with each other and respectful especially when disagreeing.

Guado

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I tried the SZ Aztec strat last night for a few hours, but I could only get it to work with invisibility. (And not using Bond as the "second guard.") I did most of my runs with invincible/agent or 007 mode and invisibility off. As I understand it, you can lure one guard between the center and right frames, and if he stops between the two at the right point, and is facing toward the glass, he can open it if he performs the correct animation once alerted. He also does this sort of walking in a circle to reposition himself animation if you're not quick enough with the alert shot.

It could work, but I'm not putting the time in at my skill level. Is it faster? Nah. Something else might have saved time on the SZ run. Or maybe, like me, he acted like it worked and gave himself credit for it, and after enough time, he couldn't remember not doing it legit. (The first time I beat Aztec I actually gamesharked it and lied for years until I 100%ed the game in 2012, the file I use now.)

And really, most of the people I respect and defend I really have no cause to do so. I just want to believe in someone more skilled so I can keep upping my game. SZ and others were those people in other games.

(And I didn't record because for the foreseeable future, I have no way of uploading anything that isn't on my phone until I move out of the internet deadzone I live in now - and probably will stop recording my PRs too.)
90+ hrs into XC2 NG+, going for 100%. Be back when I get bored.

Alka Maass

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might as well set a bounty on getting the one guard glass strat to work

mw

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I tried the SZ Aztec strat last night for a few hours, but I could only get it to work with invisibility. (And not using Bond as the "second guard.") I did most of my runs with invincible/agent or 007 mode and invisibility off. As I understand it, you can lure one guard between the center and right frames, and if he stops between the two at the right point, and is facing toward the glass, he can open it if he performs the correct animation once alerted. He also does this sort of walking in a circle to reposition himself animation if you're not quick enough with the alert shot.

It could work, but I'm not putting the time in at my skill level. Is it faster? Nah. Something else might have saved time on the SZ run. Or maybe, like me, he acted like it worked and gave himself credit for it, and after enough time, he couldn't remember not doing it legit. (The first time I beat Aztec I actually gamesharked it and lied for years until I 100%ed the game in 2012, the file I use now.)

And really, most of the people I respect and defend I really have no cause to do so. I just want to believe in someone more skilled so I can keep upping my game. SZ and others were those people in other games.

(And I didn't record because for the foreseeable future, I have no way of uploading anything that isn't on my phone until I move out of the internet deadzone I live in now - and probably will stop recording my PRs too.)

wow thanks for posting
PD Proof Moderator

Guado

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By no means believe this is possible. I left out a detail. In the run in which the strat worked, I had maneuvred a single guard around the black room (with invisibility) before he opened the door. All subsequent runs involved testing the old strat once I believed it possible. Apologies for any misdirection. Been so frustrated and confused. I can't trust any of the people I used to look up to.

Next time I try, I'll record what I've been experimenting with and get some feedback if it's anything worth pursuing. I'll find some way to get it online.
90+ hrs into XC2 NG+, going for 100%. Be back when I get bored.

falzy211

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What a horrible thread

Goose you BLACKMAILED a 39 year old man with 2 kids to force him to reveal some strat that you can’t prove he did or did not do definitively. You threatened to drag his name, and his kids names through the mud over what is, and I’ll be clear here, a video game.
He’s nearly 40. Do you really think he has the time to care? You all had him
Marked as guilty before he had any chance to do anything. No wonder he left without showing you.

Is it a despicable example of harassment and witch hunting.  The elite should be ashamed.

Even if he did lie. To be frank. No normal human being would care. He’s done nothing wrong in the grand scheme of life. It’s just a game, just delete he time rather than pretend it’s some moral issue

I used to look forward to your streams before you quit after karl beat you to the depot uwr. It didn’t matter you didn’t get it you were fun to watch. It legitimately hurts me to see what you’re doing now.

You all need to move on. Remove his times as per his wishes. He has a right to remove his personal information, such as his name, from your site.

This will the last time I step foot into the elite. As a man who waited years for dam 52 and donated that much when it happened, I can’t stay in this any longer

Sorry


Ray Ruane

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If he lied and no normal human being would care, why would Steven?

He has done nothing wrong in the grand scheme of life. It is just a game and Goose is just making a video about it.

I think he would be more motivated by having kids if anything, what if one of them googles his name and all that comes up are accusations of cheating? I'm not a parent, but it would be a better example to come clean or at least come up with a plausible explanation. Based on the evidence I'd say it's more likely that SZ had invisibility on or something rather than the collective knowledge of the community which has been proven time and time again is totally wrong. The doubt cast on his other games doesn't convince me as much in this context, but the way he's reacted has only made it worse.

As for what Goose has been doing, if anything he's been bringing attention to gaming's issues with cheating. Similar to how professional sports have needed to clean up PEDs and the like, it will make speedrunning and gaming more legitimate to out people like this now and build a proper history rather than a false mythology. The Elite has been a pioneer in this regard, since video has been a major part of proof for years, even before it was common on the internet. It may seem tabloid-esque at times, but the era where competitive gaming was vulnerable to false claims has been largely thwarted by a combination of widely available video recording and sharing, and proof policies with some integrity. Not to mention it has grown in popularity and visibility, and now more than a handful of people make careers and fortunes out of it. In 2000 the community was probably dominated by immature teenagers but at this point it needs to be treated more officially.

You wouldn't pay an athlete millions just because he claims a 9.5s 100m dash, nor should a gamer have a large Twitch channel and lucrative sponsorships due to cheating or insubstantiated claims of skill. Once these people are outed, their support tends to go to more deserving candidates. This isn't the case for SZ but that doesn't mean we shouldn't police this sort of thing. No one else will come into our community and review runs for splicing, proof call times, etc.

To use the Todd Rogers example, he was able to claim WRs using a referee as proof, which clearly is outdated and certainly shouldn't be the sole basis for a career. That's one reason why people who claim to witness his times really shouldn't be upheld as a matter of principle. If SZ came clean on some level it would at least make him more mature than the other people in his situation.