Author Topic: Bonus Points Untied  (Read 1131 times)

Klewer

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Bonus Points Untied
« on: July 15, 2018, 11:09:49 pm »
Hi All,

Is there any plans or system in place for people with UWR with multiple seconds gap to second to get extra points?
I understand if that's just the way the rankings are, just more a curious question when noticing the Runway 00A times page.

Thanks,

JDBlack21

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Re: Bonus Points Untied
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2018, 11:28:53 pm »
I hear this has been discussed before, but never put into place.
The Keen Eye™

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rhakiath

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Re: Bonus Points Untied
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2018, 01:03:23 am »
For that matter, it could be good to include full game runs. If they were worth points, they would probably be a lot more commonly run. As it stands, however, I don't think RTA points would change the rankings much once the top runners all clean up their game. It would probably give us some great consistent strats and optimize those categories which are underplayed. This game is brutal though, if you want a good time.

Keep in mind an untied will cost every other player 2 or 3 points if they had any on the level. It doesn't seem that impressive for such an achievement, but it hurts top players the most. For a top 10 player, getting any points is really tough, and an untied will normally hold its value for a long time whereas a weaker time can lose all value over time.

I do think that times that are tied by over 100 people should lose points, however. I would find a new player getting 20 points on a level like Bunker 2 00 a lot more impressive than a Bunker 1 17 or such. Too many players only go for the easy WR or former WR for high points, then the harder levels are underplayed and unoptimized. Same deal with RTA, I think people should have an incentive to play them more to collectively strengthen the rankings. Even if it's just a league incentive or achievement or something like that.

flicker

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Re: Bonus Points Untied
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2018, 01:04:50 am »
it's perfect the way it is tbh

mw

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Re: Bonus Points Untied
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2018, 01:19:24 am »
Keep in mind an untied will cost every other player 2 or 3 points if they had any on the level.
An untied costs a player exactly 3 points, but only if they had the WR on that level already. With the points system, you don't lose any points for a player already above you on a level getting a new PR.

Most people would say an untied is its own reward. Most, if not all people who are playing for untieds aren't doing it for the points. Look at Grav's timespage and Clemens's PD page. Points isn't the end-all be-all ranking system of the Elite. This is why we have the Time and Tally rankings.

DYM

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Re: Bonus Points Untied
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2018, 01:12:14 pm »
Grav's multiple second untied is actually a good reason to not have bonus points for 2s+ untieds.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 01:20:04 pm by Selenium Webdriver »

Boss

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Re: Bonus Points Untied
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2018, 04:47:43 pm »
You have to think long run with how the point system works. Sure a 4s untied for player A is still only 3 points ahead of player B now, but that 3 will likely be a lot higher in 10 or 20 years assuming both players don't improve.

flukey lukey

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Re: Bonus Points Untied
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2018, 06:24:08 pm »
Time Ranks > Point Ranks , problem solved.
LAS

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Grav

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Re: Bonus Points Untied
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2018, 06:33:20 pm »
 :nesquik:

Klewer

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Re: Bonus Points Untied
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2018, 07:40:22 pm »
Grav's multiple second untied is actually a good reason to not have bonus points for 2s+ untieds.

How so?

Re: Bonus Points Untied
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2018, 08:48:44 pm »
Grav's multiple second untied is actually a good reason to not have bonus points for 2s+ untieds.

How so?

We have a system, a tier system, which we update regularly to "rank" separately the world records among themselves. What you're proposing just adds further arbitration and more factors that make it more complicated than it needs to be.

....in my opinion.  :nesquik:

Grav

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Re: Bonus Points Untied
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2018, 09:29:20 pm »
complete and exhaustive list of people who achieved multi second untieds with points as their main focus:
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 11:10:05 pm by Grav »

Silent Thunder

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Re: Bonus Points Untied
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2018, 12:12:00 am »
I recently stopped submitting scores over at cyberscore because they have literally overhauled how they calculate points 3 or 4 times in the last year alone, and this is after several other overhauls over the past several years.  They can't make up their damn minds and it's annoying as hell.

The Elite has followed the same point system for almost 20 years.  It is easy to understand and calculate.  It been proven over the years to give a good approximation of who the top players are.  The fact that it hasn't changed makes historical comparisons easier.

DON'T CHANGE IT.  DON'T MAKE IT MORE COMPLICATED.


rhakiath

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Re: Bonus Points Untied
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2018, 01:01:10 am »
Time Ranks > Point Ranks , problem solved.

I think point ranks are still a very solid system, especially for the top players. In general they give a very good idea of who the best players are. Top players will always have a lot of WRs, and usually have some points on every level. There are different playstyles but generally a good player can get a lot of overall points if they are active. And since so many players seek points, it's become more of the de facto goal for players since it's the most active and competitive rankings.

I always thought time ranks were more accessible for a new player. Plus they don't punish players for using older or less insane strats, a PR is still a PR. Points have become really hard to get in GE, and knowledge can be hard to gain since so few levels have tutorials, as well as tutorials usually being geared towards the WR strats.

I'd like to hear people's opinion: Which do people find more impressive, a player with Bunker 1 17 and a total time of 19:59:43, or Robert Rune who is about 100th in time ranks with no points? I think the time rank shows a lot more dedication and overall mastery of the whole game. Of course none of his times are that impressive individually, but I'd say Robert would be more skilled. Essentially an equal number of people have gotten 17s or gotten similar or better time ranks.

WRs are always the most sexy, even the easy ones. Many players have obviously gotten a couple good times but have a ton of 20:00s on their times page. I always thought it was a shame since we don't have any kind of proper rankings as a result. It's not like these players couldn't post their actual times, and the rankings should be a lot stronger if people cared. It literally takes longer to make an account and post a time than to beat any level for a moderately skilled player.

I'd rather know where I stand in the time ranks; I am top 200 but in reality there are at least 50 or so active players that are clearly way more skilled but pretend they can't even beat the game (Like Grav, Oscar Pleininger, Matthew Burden, Philip Bezgoubov, Craig McGrath just to name a few). Simply selecting the level, pausing out, and recording the clear time would undoubtedly cut their total times by 15 minutes per level or more. There's the top 10 or so, who care about time ranks and post every PB (as well as having every PB gain points), as well as shit players like myself who are meticulous about it, and hundreds of degenerates who only care about points. Since such a large part of the player base doesn't bother to post, the time ranks are only useful for comparing people under 1:20 or so which is a pretty hard club to get into. Too many top players treat them like a joke. Never understood the logic behind it myself.

Somewhat off topic, but anyone have a list of every level by total amount of points they give? For example Bunker 1 Agent or Dam Agent would have to be over 10000 points, while something like Control 00A would be more like half that since there's a distribution of times. We could weight points with this in mind as a thought experiment, which would devalue the mega-tied times and show us more separation in the ranks. It might end up looking like the time ranks to some extent.

Klewer

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Re: Bonus Points Untied
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2018, 01:38:23 am »
Grav's multiple second untied is actually a good reason to not have bonus points for 2s+ untieds.

How so?

We have a system, a tier system, which we update regularly to "rank" separately the world records among themselves. What you're proposing just adds further arbitration and more factors that make it more complicated than it needs to be.

....in my opinion.  :nesquik:

That's a good answer, appreciate someone taking the time to answer it kindly.
Is that the forum post that has the Tiers List with colours from Green to Red?

Re: Bonus Points Untied
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2018, 05:20:08 am »
You got it! That'd be the one.

destrukt

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Re: Bonus Points Untied
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2018, 01:54:01 pm »
As the others have already said, there is no current system for this in place and since the current rankings are so easy to understand and yet incredibly accurate, it would require an impeccable reason to change anything about them.
Also since Ace and Grav are the only two who currently hold such a record (at least as far as I know), their opinion is probably the one I'd consider to be the right one.

What was not mentioned yet
If you consider this to be something that is worth the effort, you can always create a thread where you post your own rules for points and keep your own updated rankings.
As Goose said in this video: if you find that a community is missing something, then you can always add it yourself as long as you are passionate about it and have fun doing it.
https://youtu.be/2uLvFJz-AiQ?t=960

If you care to actually make your own rules (which I would find really interesting, but probably not worth the effort) there would be a lot of things to consider:
Spoiler
Do the amount of points you gain increase or decrese for each second that you gain on 2nd place?
Lets say someone finds a new glitch strategy on for example Dam 00 and gets an untied by 60 seconds. Does he then get a billion points?
Does the record holder keep the points when the other come closer to his record or does he lose points?
Is an multiple second untied on a longer level worth as much as on a short one?